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ESO trying to be a solo RPG in an MMO format - is it enough?

timlongsonb16_ESO
I am the guild master of a guild with 500 members - or at least it was 500, its now probably more like 100 as the rest seem to be leaving ESO in droves. Even my most active and enthusiastic officers are 'giving up'.

Ok, so the first few probably left because they were pathetic about a couple of bugs, which soon got fixed, but they are easy to spot because they stopped playing when they were low level. I kicked those out of the guild and recruited a load of Veterans to replace them - the people who stuck with the game (regardless of bugs) and completed the 'normal' content. But now even MORE of the guild is inactive - with veterans giving up.

Whats the problem? The feedback I am getting is that you cant run an MMO like a solo RPG, just with the ability to occasionally do things with other people, which is what ESO is at the moment.

MMO means a HUGE point of the game (if not the ENTIRE point) is NEEDING to work with others to get anywhere, which means RAIDS, and it means tactics and it means lot of hard work, with hours of wiping trying to get bosses down as an effective team, for a feeling of accomplishment. As it is at the moment, you may as well have a few thousand people playing solo Skyrim with a intergame chat box, because thats what its like 99% of the time; there is no real NEED to cooperate with other players.

What good MMO does NOT mean is, that when enough people reach max level, you simply add on yet ANOTHER questing zone and raise the maximum player level by "2 vet levels" - because thats just the same old quest after quest after quest with slightly different scenery, killing slightly different monsters, collecting slightly different items.

People want to feel they are progressing, and that their SKILLS (not just time spent questing) are allowing them access to better gear or improvements which others, less skilled, cant reach, or wont reach until they practice a lot more and get with a better party. People who get to vet 3 feel absolutely NO different from when they are vet 1, they just feel they have wasted huge amounts of time questing for no real progress.

The reason people left WOW in droves, and I mean people who used to worship the game, was because they changed it from "you need to be elite to see EVERYTHING", and "good to see most things", to "spend enough time grinding and you will see everything, no matter how crap you are".

ESO please pay heed to whats happening - people are giving up and getting bored already, and the game hasnt been out very long, you NEED to change your formula. I am STILL telling my friends to by ESO because I still think this game has great potential - you got getting from lvl 1 to 50 right, lots of fun, good job! :) Now rethink your "end game" content, because its drastically wrong, and to be frank, boring. It would frankly be BETTER to encourage people to make alts and play the other factions rather than forcing them to go through it all because there is nothing better to do.

Bring in raids starting veteran rank 1. Having 12 mans is fine, but make them CHALLENGING - if a team of average skill can clear the place in a couple of hours, bosses taking 5 minutes to kill, then its NOT challenging, it boring.

Maybe take a leaf out of other MMO's and allow people to revisit old dungeons in "veteran" mode - the bosses MUCH tougher, more advanced tactics, better loot, feeling of PROGRESS. Its ALL about feeling progress and having to WORK for it.

Stop raising max level, stop adding MORE quests, start making raids which require skill and HOURS of practice, long complex fights, and content that cant be seen without skill, and you will become the best MMO out there, which everyone was hoping for in the first place! You have leveling 1 to 50 down pat, now fix the END GAME!

And do it quick, before most people leave!
  • Blackwidow
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    You can not force people to group. It has to be by incentive.

    I agree that we need a ton of raids and pve content.

    They worked on Cryodill for well over a year and that seems to be a failure.

    Let's give the PvE side some love.
  • KariTR
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    I don't think the problem is the game - which is actually almost constant working together as a group - but with players who don't recognise they are working with other players simply because they don't have the leash of a party function to hold onto.

    This is the most co-op MMO I have played in years. It's a shame some players aren't getting it.

  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    Indeed. PVP is a very personal thing - there are some people who will love world PVP, and there are some people who hate the idea or more than small scraps in arena format. Personally I have always preferred PVE raids, so I agree with you Blackwidow :)
  • krez23
    krez23
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    Interesting because years ago, people wanted Oblivion and Skyrim to be played with other players. Then this came out in the series. Now they want it to be like other mmos. I'm going to assume if that does happen, people will then be upset because Bethseda abandoned their roots. Just can't please everyone I guess.
    Edited by krez23 on 27 May 2014 21:06
  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    krez23 wrote: »
    Interesting because years ago, people wanted Oblivion and Skyrim to be played with other players. Then this came out in the series. Now they want it to be like other mmos. I'm going to assume if that does happen, people will then be upset because Bethseda abandoned their roots. Just can't please everyone I guess.

    What people wanted was Oblivion / Skyrim + MMO features. Level 1 to 50 is classic Oblivion / Skyrim, and good fun. What people DONT want is a game they pay a monthly subscription for that "extends gameplay" by just adding on more levels. ESO HAS what it needed to have from is Oblivion / Skyrim roots (although I go back further to the original PC elder scrolls on 3.5 inch floppy disk), what it does NOT have right yet are the MMO features - if you want a market to capture both worlds (rich story RPG AND MMO players) then you need to cater to both worlds; ESO currently scores 10/10 for the rich story, as we would expect, but sadly only score 2/10 for MMO features - it IS recoverable, and fixable, it just needs doing quick before too many people who want the MMO side (the one used to paying monthly fee, and expecting new regular and challenging content in MMO format) leave.
  • Reivax
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    One thing I always hated about WoW was that all the best stuff only dropped in raids or was purchased by pvp currency.
    I am not the person that can dedicate the hours and schedule to properly do a raid, I can't, and never will be able to.
    So as long as the fun stuff is available to however a person chooses to play this game, and not "best stuff is only for raid or hardcore pvp players" then I'm good.

    I just hope ESO forges its own place and doesn't feel obligated to start tacking on features of past MMOs just to keep everyone happy.
    I hope they go forward with their own vision.

  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    Reivax wrote: »
    One thing I always hated about WoW was that all the best stuff only dropped in raids or was purchased by pvp currency.
    I am not the person that can dedicate the hours and schedule to properly do a raid, I can't, and never will be able to.
    So as long as the fun stuff is available to however a person chooses to play this game, and not "best stuff is only for raid or hardcore pvp players" then I'm good.

    I just hope ESO forges its own place and doesn't feel obligated to start tacking on features of past MMOs just to keep everyone happy.
    I hope they go forward with their own vision.

    They you should go back to WOW because that's exactly what they did - they made it so ANYONE, no matter how unskilled, can get the best stuff.... and its why they lost millions and millions of players.....

    Humans are COMPETITIVE by nature, we enjoy being competitive on multi-player games. I personally dont care for PVP, but I do take great pride and joy by getting together with some friends and working hard to figure out how to take down really tough bosses, and feel we should be rewarded accordingly. Effort = rewards.
  • alphawolph
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    I like this game it's why i play it. If they force me to group to progress i will move on.
  • Arsenic_Touch
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    This is kind of funny... one thread people are whining about being forced to group. Another thread whining about it being a single player game. Just wow.
    Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured?

    ╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
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    "But united we can break a fate once set in stone."

    ╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝

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  • xwadirtydiggler
    xwadirtydiggler
    Soul Shriven
    themepark mmos get old fast. Real mmo's are sandbox
  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    themepark mmos get old fast. Real mmo's are sandbox

    Agreed - there should be an element of CHOICE. Players should NOT be forced to quest forever.

    By introducing large complex raids to be available from Vet 1, player could CHOOSE to either keep questing OR start raiding, or BOTH.

    This would not be a conflict - the difference in power between say vet 1 and vet 3 is tiny, and comes purely from the very slight stat upgrade if they bother to upgrade their gear. If the raids are complex and challenging enough, a skillful vet 1 player should be able to accomplish, for example, what an unskilled vet 3 player can not.

    What is missing is the OPTION to STOP relying SOLELY on questing, and to start "end game raiding" instead. Sandbox is about choice, so where is the raiders choice?

    I know literally hundreds of people who have already given up because they are bored with questing, and I know even more who are at the point where they are planning to leave, including, regrettably, myself - but I will hang on if there is even a hint of actually adding end game (normal leveling end game would be 50 / vet 1) content which is so sadly lacking at the moment.
  • tanthil
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    They are lacking the key features that make MMO's replayable, thats gear/character progression and unfortunately the forums are still filled with the single player skyrim fans who have no MMO experience that are still defending it only because they have not reached max level and realized , hey, theres nothing to do but 2 unrewarding trials.

    Its a fundamental game problem as the current gear set up does not really aloow for advancement, just SLIGHT gains to armor and magika/health/stamina that are just eaten up by diminishing returns(overcharge)

    Theres no dps stats on gear aside from weapons that actualy make you stronger and allow for harder content to be taken on (released later) there is no progression, just quests quests and more quests with no rewards.. Yes, that is a single player game, one that you defeat and you are done with it

    Ofcourse with craglorn they tried to make it an MMO by forcing us to group for the quests, the quests that still give us nothing viable except more vr levels at the end of the day

    theres also the HUGE gate of having to do 170? levels just to get to end game that would scare off any potential new customer from attempting to try this game (this is all assuming some kind of viable end game gets puts in)... This will also even hinder people from playing the game when it does go F2P even

    Right now zenimax really need sto share their current goals for the game with us because i guarantee it cannot do anymore harm and may do some good, depending on were they are headed
    Edited by tanthil on 28 May 2014 01:34
  • AinGeal
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    I read the post and I agree. This game lacks proper group content. It's 90% soloable and those that like to be a part of a good group find being in a group pointless.

    Then there is the other side of the coin. Those that like to solo. Yes the content is soloable but every time you enter into a crypt, ruin or some other kind of 'dungeon', a half dozen other players show up with you inside. You may not be in a group together but the game forces you to play through content with others.

    So in short, they are doing it wrong for both player types. Those that solo have the soloable gameplay but the game shoves you in with others. Those that group can do so but the content is not designed for group play.
  • Evergnar
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    They could make it all groupable and just offer mercenaries for hire.
  • AinGeal
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    Evergnar wrote: »
    They could make it all groupable and just offer mercenaries for hire.

    That was a horrible GW1 mechanic.

  • Darastix
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    catering to the solo gamestyle is going to be eso's downfall, this is a mmo, not a single player game. We need grouping to be encouraged, not shunned as it is now.
  • fyendiarb16_ESO
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    This is kind of funny... one thread people are whining about being forced to group. Another thread whining about it being a single player game. Just wow.

    Different people, different preferences.

    Personally I think there are more than enough mmo's with the "raid or die" mentality, whether or not they are challenging or not is a different matter.

    Again personally I like games that give you a choice between doing stuff with a group or going solo without giving either benefit over the other. That only adds to the freedom.

    I am one of those that despise raiding and forced grouping, but am also fine with the fact that there needs to be content for teamplay. The problem as I said rises when people start saying stuff like "raiders deserve better gear than others" which is often the result of raids. It's the individual challenge that should be rewarded and not simply the fact that you teamed up.

    As for ESO, the game is still very new and will grow over time. It will need more content in every aspect of the game. Raids for the raiders, challenging solo content for those that can't or don't want to raid and more roleplay additions to the game and of course many bug fixes and balancing. I hope to see them all added without a strong focus on one.

    At release of a sandbox mmo there is usually far more solo content than group content because leveling is the first impression people get and that has to be good for most players.

    Most developers seem to think that means that from there on all focus has to be on group end game content and forget about the other aspects of the game. I hope that ESO will not go that route.

    First add more group content to balance things out a bit between the solo and group activities while adding some roleplay stuff. Then once the balance has somewhat been reached focus on all of them, do not set the focus on one only and do not divide the groups with gear quality differences because in this game gear is everything in pvp so that would remove the balance again.

    Anyway, my 2 cents worth.
    AinGeal wrote: »
    Evergnar wrote: »
    They could make it all groupable and just offer mercenaries for hire.

    That was a horrible GW1 mechanic.

    I kinda liked that. Wasn't a fan of GW1, but that was a nice feature for pve.
    Edited by fyendiarb16_ESO on 28 May 2014 02:40
  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    tanthil wrote: »
    They are lacking the key features that make MMO's replayable, thats gear/character progression and unfortunately the forums are still filled with the single player skyrim fans who have no MMO experience that are still defending it only because they have not reached max level and realized , hey, theres nothing to do but 2 unrewarding trials.

    You hit the nail on the head! The people saying "its fine" are the people use to playing SOLO RPG games with a shelf life - they like the similarities to the solo style of games like Skyrim, BUT, with that they are USED to games having a "finishing" point, a point at which there is nothing left to do, game over.

    MMO players, on the other hand, are used to buying (litterally paying monthly fees) for games they can play for YEARS - the content is challenging to the point where NO ONE can see / clear everything straight away, they need to progress and "gear up" to be powerful enough, and coordinated/skilled enough to be able to make it through some content before they even SEE the later stuff.

    At the moment, ESO has about 2 months worth of interesting game play. Unless there is a change to end game to the more traditional MMO "challenges for years", then its after about 2 months on average (vet 1 / 2) that you will (and are) see massive drop offs in player base.

    ESO is a business - if you cater to people who want an essentially solo RPG, who are used to a game having finite usability, then you will have short lifespan customers. If you want the loyal long terms MMO players (subscribe for years) then you need to change to MMO end game challenges in a more time honored and provable manner. Other MMOs that neglected this, such as SWTOR (again REALLY fun leveling to max level), learned this lesson too late (not enough end-game challenges), tried going free to play (which is a terrible choice as it changes development drive away from adding new content people want to play, to adding now "shinnies" that people want to buy with real money), and failed with what could have otherwise been a very successful MMO.
  • Fuzzylumpkins
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    ESO failed to launch. It failed to hit it's mark as any type of game. It is a single player game that wants a sub but penalises you for soloing. hell it penalises you for grouping.

    From quest that penalise group mates simply for being with you to content that is either strictly solo or strictly group, it is confusing.

    It cant be saved or salvaged and the few that will defend it are the hardcore fans of ES that cannot and will not admit this just is not an ES game in the tradition of games Bethesda itself developed. They handed over some lore and images to a company that mashed it up as best they could and delivered a cold lumpy pile of mud.

    I made an error in not unsubbing before my first months fee went through. It was fine, gave me a chance to check out the crag content and holy cow is it atrocious and another massive exploit fest.
  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    P.s.
    The main differences between ESO and solo Skyrim/Oblivion are the changes in game mechanics (having set classes, having predefined spells rather than being able to make custom spells, etc) are very OBVIOUSLY to allow for game balance and forming RAID parties with pre-defined rolls (tanks, healers, dps).

    These features make the game suitable / designed to cater for raids. Some people have complained about the "completely unrestricted" game style loss from Skyrim/Oblivion, where there were no classes, you had no defined role, and you just got good at what you did. Sacrificing these freedoms to make this an MMO is an acceptable sacrifice SO LONG as the game PLAYS more like an MMO, otherwise its the worst of both worlds - not complete freedom, and not a true raiding MMO.
  • mutharex
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    Not another one of these discussion: ESO isn't the MMO you wanted? I am really sorry. It is what I and many TES fans wanted. Should it convert to a wowclone or generic MMO, it will kill the franchise forever because people who bought this because they trusted ZOS vision (yeah not everybody is clueless when they buy a game) would just leave and probably never trust a Bethesda/ZOS product again.

    Just leave this dead horse rest. It's not a generic, mediocre gear grind, thanks god
  • Fuzzylumpkins
    Fuzzylumpkins
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    mutharex wrote: »
    Not another one of these discussion: ESO isn't the MMO you wanted? I am really sorry. It is what I and many TES fans wanted. Should it convert to a wowclone or generic MMO, it will kill the franchise forever because people who bought this because they trusted ZOS vision (yeah not everybody is clueless when they buy a game) would just leave and probably never trust a Bethesda/ZOS product again.

    Just leave this dead horse rest. It's not a generic, mediocre gear grind, thanks god

    You speak for yourself. as a TES fan this game is a heaping pile of anything but TES games. Yay, it has the skins and similar lore. BUT. Yes BUT, it is a such a perverted use of the lore that other than sharing names it is crap.

    Speak for yourself next time, not for a general population.
  • Iceman_mat
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    I joined 2 guilds and have grouped with about 8 low level members. It's called helping people, you should try it.

    Step 1) Ask guildies if they need help
    Step 2) ???
    Step 3) Profit


    -Cheers
  • Still_Mind
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    Currently, having extensive solo options is a prerequisite of a modern MMO. You have to remember that oldschool stuff like EQ that "forced" grouping had a much smaller, more dedicated playerbase.

    Attracting a broader audience requires for broader ranges of playstyles to be supported.

    As far as the lack of endgame content is concerned, this is the story of all fresh MMOs. Creating any endgame content worth mentioning takes a lot of work, and the developers can't realistcally release MMOs with a full set of endgame content.

    And I can't stress enough that ESO gameplay is much less gear-focused than WoW-model MMOs is a good thing.
    "I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"
  • mutharex
    mutharex
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    mutharex wrote: »
    Not another one of these discussion: ESO isn't the MMO you wanted? I am really sorry. It is what I and many TES fans wanted. Should it convert to a wowclone or generic MMO, it will kill the franchise forever because people who bought this because they trusted ZOS vision (yeah not everybody is clueless when they buy a game) would just leave and probably never trust a Bethesda/ZOS product again.

    Just leave this dead horse rest. It's not a generic, mediocre gear grind, thanks god

    You speak for yourself. as a TES fan this game is a heaping pile of anything but TES games. Yay, it has the skins and similar lore. BUT. Yes BUT, it is a such a perverted use of the lore that other than sharing names it is crap.

    Speak for yourself next time, not for a general population.

    No dude, you speak for yourself. The only difference is, I am not trying to persuade others of what I think, you do. So why don't you go play something else instead of being a nuisance?
    Edited by mutharex on 28 May 2014 15:03
  • steveb16_ESO46
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    Darastix wrote: »
    catering to the solo gamestyle is going to be eso's downfall, this is a mmo, not a single player game. We need grouping to be encouraged, not shunned as it is now.

    That's the trouble. they don't effectively cater for either. When I want to group my guild mates are unable to help due to phasing. When I want to solo I can't get away from being surrounded by a rampaging mob of lone heroes even in what are meant to be visions.
  • Wintersage
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    For my money, ESO is too much like MMOs and not enough like an ES game. What's more, I'm firmly of the belief that this is just the game of the month for most MMO players, who are just waiting to play "the next big thing". They'll move on.

    This is, however, the only game in town as far as a new ES game goes. (Well. Or what passes for one at any rate.)

    That said, I also believe we could really do with having some basic functionality (more group and guild tools, for example) and something.....anything that makes buying/selling easier.

    Not dead set on an AH, but I don't think it should take longer to find/buy an item in a game than it does in RL. Certainly not in a game which seems to have a huge focus on crafting. That's not how I really want to spend my available playtime. It's above and beyond needlessly complex and tedious.
  • drogon1
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    There is a lot of stupid in these comments.

    Pre-VR, 95% of your time spent in ESO is doing single player content (sure you can group for it, but why make it even more faceroll)?

    I agree with the OP, except his statement saying 1-50 is fine. 1-50 is anything but fine for the what I believe is the standard MMO player.

    Look, here is how 95% of the people in ESO level 1-50. You solo quest to level to level 12, then do 3 dungeons. When done with the 3 dungeons, you're still level 12, so you solo quest up to the next set of dungeons at level 20. At level 20, you do the 3 dungeons; when done, you're still level 20 so you solo quest to level 28 to the new set of dungeons. Rinse and repeat every 7-8 levels.

    During this time, you will encounter other group content with other players (public dungeons, dolmens, world bosses) which you may or may not group for in order to complete, but it is overall a very small portion of the xp needed to reach 50.

    Given this, it is indisputable to say that pre-VR, ESO is primarily a single player experience. Removing the option for players to advance their characters in dungeons is all the evidence you need.

    Regarding PvP xp, for a leveling character it comes too slowly to make it a viable option imo (not to mention the frustration of being facerolled by high level players - vet 12 are 1 shotting low level players now).

    Note: I do not mention grinding world mobs as a viable option for leveling, because ESO is a AAA MMO where such as thing should be avoidable. Nevertheless, ironically, it appears to be the fastest way to advance a character in the game at the moment.
  • timlongsonb16_ESO
    Yes basically it comes down to this - ESO is a re-engineered version of Skyrim/Oblivion to be an MMO. To make it suitable for an MMO they have removed the complete freedom of playing (by adding classes, set skills, etc..) which mean that it is no longer suitable to be called a great solo RPG. HOWEVER, these MMO features, which appeal to people who want to play an MMO, are NOT being used as designed - there are no "end game raids" where large raid parties make use of these defined roles. So it currently fails as an MMO and fails as a solo RPG..... This needs to change or it will die, like so many other MMOs out there that didnt keep this in mind.
  • Cogo
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    Several times past year when devs was doing Q&A, the question came up if ESO was skyrim multiplayer. Answer was always no.

    I am sorry to be blunt, but what you choose to do in game, which guild to join/create, quest to do, explore, RP, whatever, begins and stops with you.

    No one forces you to do anything. Main quest maybe.

    I find grouping with a new person I found rewarding....most are friendly and quite fast we work as a duo. Happen several times. This has more to do about the type of player who plays....then the game,

    Unhappy with anything in the game. Change then. Its the big feature of ESO, you choose what the hell you want to do.
    Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
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