Would having more than 2 hot bars and build be impossible?

subecsanur · May 2014

This constant need to shuffle abilities to accommodate the need is getting just to cumbersome. Plus with all the skills that are given, why not?

Turelus · May 2014

Because limited skills means more thought into builds and what you will need for each encounter.
There are add-ons which let you save skill sets and switch to them (out of combat) easier if you want to have three or four standard set ups.

zgrssd · May 2014

subecsanur wrote: »

This constant need to shuffle abilities to accommodate the need is getting just to cumbersome. Plus with all the skills that are given, why not?

As long as it is out of comabt (same as manual switching), there are addons for that. And switching gear too:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info530-SwapSkills.html
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info52-WykkydsOutfitter.html (gear and skills)

subecsanur · May 2014

Lol again to this add-on line, that add-on has been around since PTS so obviously there is the need.
And why out of combat? when you at times need to do this on the fly.

Yes more thought, it is because we put so much thought into it that we should be allowed to shuffle abilities fast, why limit to just 2?

And mind you when your trying to shuffle / move icon's you can only do that stationary mode.

tanthil · May 2014

Turelus wrote: »

Because limited skills means more thought into builds and what you will need for each encounter.
There are add-ons which let you save skill sets and switch to them (out of combat) easier if you want to have three or four standard set ups.

Sorry no, theres no thoughts to builds, so little actually works that you are stupid not to use it.

Limited abilities is just to cater to the easymode crowd this game is after, ppl that cant use multiple keybind (seeing as this game was made impossible for clickers by design)

subecsanur · May 2014

I did forget that I guess eventually this game will be a dedicated client box game, imagine how easy that would be using that system to move your abilities around.

Turelus · May 2014

tanthil wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Because limited skills means more thought into builds and what you will need for each encounter.
There are add-ons which let you save skill sets and switch to them (out of combat) easier if you want to have three or four standard set ups.

Sorry no, theres no thoughts to builds, so little actually works that you are stupid not to use it.

Limited abilities is just to cater to the easymode crowd this game is after, ppl that cant use multiple keybind (seeing as this game was made impossible for clickers by design)

I would have said that it doesn't cater to easy mode, easy would be having everything you own at your disposal at all times, having less at your disposal makes things harder because you have to think about your skills before going into an encounter.
If so few skills are worth taking then why do you need more than 2x5 slots?

tanthil · May 2014

Turelus wrote: »

tanthil wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Because limited skills means more thought into builds and what you will need for each encounter.
There are add-ons which let you save skill sets and switch to them (out of combat) easier if you want to have three or four standard set ups.

Sorry no, theres no thoughts to builds, so little actually works that you are stupid not to use it.

Limited abilities is just to cater to the easymode crowd this game is after, ppl that cant use multiple keybind (seeing as this game was made impossible for clickers by design)

I would have said that it doesn't cater to easy mode, easy would be having everything you own at your disposal at all times, having less at your disposal makes things harder because you have to think about your skills before going into an encounter.
If so few skills are worth taking then why do you need more than 2x5 slots?

by your logic if we could only slot one ability then it would be even harder because it was an even harder choice to make??? lol

Turelus · May 2014

tanthil wrote: »

by your logic if we could only slot one ability then it would be even harder because it was an even harder choice to make??? lol

You're telling me the game wouldn't be harder if you could only have one active skill at a time?
You're asking for more skills on your bar because you feel that having less skills on your bar makes the game easier for players, however I don't see how having less options during a combat makes the game easier.
I can give you an example of how less skills has made the game harder and having more would have made it far easier, I was running a veteran dungeon with friends and came to a boss fight, I play Nightblade tank and went into the fight with the following skills.
Pierce Armor, Absorb Magic, Funnel Health, Ring of Preservation and Leeching Strikes.
Now part way through the boss fight I found because of two enemies using abilities that staggered me I was being ping-ponged around the room and having a hard time tanking. Absorb Magic wasn't really being used at all and I really could have done with having Unstoppable slotted so I could ignore the stagger effects.

Because of my choice in skills going into that fight I ended up having a much harder time with the encounter, by your logic if I had more skills on my bar it would have been even more difficult, however with more skills available I can slot those skills which are situational only always being covered in the event of needing them. This would make encounters easier because I wouldn't need to think about each boss fight and what I might need before hand.

You also over look that skill lines level up based on the number of skills on your bar in regards to that skill line. Having more skills able to be slotted would mean you could level skill lines faster or multiple ones at once without actually needing those abilities.

It seems that you have found a part of the core game design that you're not happy with and come to the forums to demand its change to appease you without placing any thought into the process of why it's the way it is to start with. You also haven't spent the time thinking about the pros and cons of your request and there impact on how they effect other aspects of the games design. These are the kinds of posts I often speak of when I post on these forums where players dive into the forums, demanding change without any thought going into why it was designed that way and the effects their demanded changes might have on the game.

hk11 · May 2014

Not enough buttons on a console controller for that. Sorry.

tanthil · May 2014

Turelus wrote: »

tanthil wrote: »

by your logic if we could only slot one ability then it would be even harder because it was an even harder choice to make??? lol

You're telling me the game wouldn't be harder if you could only have one active skill at a time?

So limiting the gameplay to pressing one button over and over should actually make it harder,

thnx for your input

zgrssd · May 2014

subecsanur wrote: »

Lol again to this add-on line, that add-on has been around since PTS so obviously there is the need.

Wich is exactly why the Devs gave us the addon API. So could solve issues exactly like this and they could focus about the other 95% of the problems we do not know about and that are much more important.

If you say "I don't want it solved by a addon", the it is your own fault for not using the tools the devs provided (indirectly).

subecsanur wrote: »

And why out of combat? when you at times need to do this on the fly.

Because you cannot switch gear or skills out of combat. Manualyl or otherwise.

AlexDougherty · May 2014

Turelus wrote: »

Because limited skills means more thought into builds and what you will need for each encounter.
There are add-ons which let you save skill sets and switch to them (out of combat) easier if you want to have three or four standard set ups.

I have no problem with a limited hotbar, and I am coping, but I do think they need to add a couple of extra slots. Just one or two, three at max. This would help a lot for me.

I don't want it to look like my Swtor Hotbars, with three on the go at a time, giving me thirty abilities to choose from. That was chaotic at the best of times.

Just a few more slots please, one or two, and I'ld be happy as a pig in mud.

Turelus · May 2014

tanthil wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

tanthil wrote: »

by your logic if we could only slot one ability then it would be even harder because it was an even harder choice to make??? lol

You're telling me the game wouldn't be harder if you could only have one active skill at a time?

So limiting the gameplay to pressing one button over and over should actually make it harder,

thnx for your input

I'm glad to see that's all you took away from my post where I was able to list a relevant example of how less skills made for harder gameplay.

If you could take some time to explain why more skills would help the game, make for harder and more interesting encounters, how you would work around the improved skill leveling speeds for multiple new slots I would be interested to see your side of the debate.
You could however continue to disregard posts with actual input, in the hopes your simple complaints without fact or evidence convince the developers to change core mechanics of the game.

Edit* terrible spelling.

Phantax · May 2014

There is also the fact that some of us (myself for one) refuse to use third=party addons in our game.
We definitely need some kind of ability to let us change gear when we weapon swap (at very least a separate bag slot we can keep 'spare' gear in)

Urvanis · May 2014

I used to think limited skill sets were great, like in GW2. because ultimately in higher skill set games like WoW or Rift, you have a bunch of skills that do the same thing. its just a matter of managing them all. So when games like this came out that simplified it down to its roots I thought it small.

but then I realized the flaw of all build based mmos, the flaw that I never really noticed as someone who comes up with their own build. Eventually someone comes out with a pro build, and anyone can copy them, the only thing thats left after that is executing the build, but when its simplified, pretty much anyone can do it.

Turelus · May 2014

@AlexDougherty I have felt the same with wanting one or two more slots at times but in the example I gave shows how just one or two slots gives food for those skills which you don't always use but are nice to have ready. While not outright game breaking it goes a long way to making encounters easier by having those "emergency" skills always ready.

@Phantax I agree that players should never be forced into using add-ons and support from ZOS to have saved builds for faster changing between combat. Options for gear sets would also be a great choice, inventory management additions for extra gear is nice but would need a way to stop abuse from players using it as additional storage.

I don't have issues with ZOS improving the accessibility of skill changing, only that I feel having more skills ready at one time means encounters would become easier.

zgrssd · May 2014

Phantax wrote: »

There is also the fact that some of us (myself for one) refuse to use third=party addons in our game.
We definitely need some kind of ability to let us change gear when we weapon swap (at very least a separate bag slot we can keep 'spare' gear in)

@Phantax
That is entirely your fault. Not Zenimax. Not the Addon Programmers. Yours.

They gave us the ability to make addons (quite a bit of work for them) so we could solve it with addons.
If you refuse to use the tools the devs provided, you have nobod to blame but the guy you see in teh mirror.
You are old enough to make contracts, you are old enough to live with the consequences of your choices.

Drasn · May 2014

Phantax wrote: »

There is also the fact that some of us (myself for one) refuse to use third=party addons in our game.
We definitely need some kind of ability to let us change gear when we weapon swap (at very least a separate bag slot we can keep 'spare' gear in)

So because you refuse to use an addon that provides the functionality you want, the developers should change the UI?

Kinda why those of us who use addons do so in the first place. The UI wasn't what we wanted, so we used addons to mold it.

Tatuaje · May 2014

The console kiddies are limited and cannot handle more than 5 skills, therefore we all get limited.

Phantax · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

There is also the fact that some of us (myself for one) refuse to use third=party addons in our game.
We definitely need some kind of ability to let us change gear when we weapon swap (at very least a separate bag slot we can keep 'spare' gear in)

So because you refuse to use an addon that provides the functionality you want, the developers should change the UI?

Kinda why those of us who use addons do so in the first place. The UI wasn't what we wanted, so we used addons to mold it.

You know that argument works both ways right? Why should we be forced to use third-part addons? Just like you we are paying for this game, and as you have the right to use an addon if you wish, we have the right not to. Doesn't mean we should have to enjoy the game any less !

Nooblet · May 2014

I used to think it was interesting and had some merit to it. Then I realized I lost 2/10 slots to a toggle. Ok there's only like 2-3damaging abilities for my class that are worth a Damn... the rest is utility.

There is so little versatility in a game with so many skills it's ridiculous.

It doesn't make the game any harder by limiting your spells. Maybe if there was some balance and all skills were useful.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Tatuaje wrote: »

The console kiddies are limited and cannot handle more than 5 skills, therefore we all get limited.

No. No. No. No, no, no. Wrong. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

This decision was made long before they committed to a console edition of the game. And other MMOs have made a limited-hotbar design as well. It's because it forces you (as others have already pointed out) to use your brain when you choose which abilities are going to go on your bar before a particular fight. Should you have AoE abilities? Or are you only going to be hitting a single target? Is this a boss fight? If so, should you replace your CC-heavy bar with abilities that will actually affect the boss? And so on and so forth.

And to respond to the unbelievably silly suggestion that "moar buttons=moar strategy," please consider WoW (which I use simply because it's the most popular, not because it's the only game that fell/falls victim to this design issue). 100s of buttons on the screen at once. All those pretty little icons. And I guarantee that you use 5-6 of them in the same order for every. Single. Fight. If you're lucky, you may have to hit one of the other buttons just to mix it up. But about 75% of your abilities are never used once you figure out your class rotation. It kills strategy and build diversity, because everyone has the exact same loadout.

Now, this debate has already been had to death, so can we let this poor horse rest in peace?

zgrssd · May 2014

Phantax wrote: »

You know that argument works both ways right? Why should we be forced to use third-part addons?

They are part of the deal you made when buying this game:
Zenimax provides the Addon API. In turn we would not bother them with stuff like this that can be solved by addons.
If you choose to not use one of the core game features, it is your fault allone.

Also the term "third party" is very wrong. Addons can do exactly what Zeniamx allows them to do. Everything they can do has been planned into the game design. They are as integral a part of the game as the default UI.

subecsanur · May 2014

Btw most addons are also limited, consider the amount of changes we at times need with armor types, class, abilities and gear I think having sets changes along with abilities would be nice.

I do admire and use add-ons and some are really good.

Apparently mods are also having issues with the addon API access.

Nooblet · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Tatuaje wrote: »

The console kiddies are limited and cannot handle more than 5 skills, therefore we all get limited.

No. No. No. No, no, no. Wrong. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

This decision was made long before they committed to a console edition of the game. And other MMOs have made a limited-hotbar design as well. It's because it forces you (as others have already pointed out) to use your brain when you choose which abilities are going to go on your bar before a particular fight. Should you have AoE abilities? Or are you only going to be hitting a single target? Is this a boss fight? If so, should you replace your CC-heavy bar with abilities that will actually affect the boss? And so on and so forth.

And to respond to the unbelievably silly suggestion that "moar buttons=moar strategy," please consider WoW (which I use simply because it's the most popular, not because it's the only game that fell/falls victim to this design issue). 100s of buttons on the screen at once. All those pretty little icons. And I guarantee that you use 5-6 of them in the same order for every. Single. Fight. If you're lucky, you may have to hit one of the other buttons just to mix it up. But about 75% of your abilities are never used once you figure out your class rotation. It kills strategy and build diversity, because everyone has the exact same loadout.

Now, this debate has already been had to death, so can we let this poor horse rest in peace?

So essentially they did the same exact thing. Except made it more of a hastle to use those situational abilities. There's only 1or 2useful abilities I swap in and out on my bars... because most of them are junk.

Also 100s - 5or 6 is not 75percent.

And sorry.. as easy as wow is.. the rotations are actually rotations. Eso is spam with light attacks in between.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Nooblet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Tatuaje wrote: »

The console kiddies are limited and cannot handle more than 5 skills, therefore we all get limited.

No. No. No. No, no, no. Wrong. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

This decision was made long before they committed to a console edition of the game. And other MMOs have made a limited-hotbar design as well. It's because it forces you (as others have already pointed out) to use your brain when you choose which abilities are going to go on your bar before a particular fight. Should you have AoE abilities? Or are you only going to be hitting a single target? Is this a boss fight? If so, should you replace your CC-heavy bar with abilities that will actually affect the boss? And so on and so forth.

And to respond to the unbelievably silly suggestion that "moar buttons=moar strategy," please consider WoW (which I use simply because it's the most popular, not because it's the only game that fell/falls victim to this design issue). 100s of buttons on the screen at once. All those pretty little icons. And I guarantee that you use 5-6 of them in the same order for every. Single. Fight. If you're lucky, you may have to hit one of the other buttons just to mix it up. But about 75% of your abilities are never used once you figure out your class rotation. It kills strategy and build diversity, because everyone has the exact same loadout.

Now, this debate has already been had to death, so can we let this poor horse rest in peace?

So essentially they did the same exact thing. Except made it more of a hastle to use those situational abilities. There's only 1or 2useful abilities I swap in and out on my bars... because most of them are junk.

Also 100s - 5or 6 is not 75percent.

And sorry.. as easy as wow is.. the rotations are actually rotations. Eso is spam with light attacks in between.

Here's how my fights in dungeons generally look:

I take a moment before the fight to switch my bar loadout. I switch out single-target for AoE (if there are a lot of mobs), keep Invigorating Drain on the bar for healing if I'm not at a boss, adjust my ultimate if I want the group to have a particular synergy, etc. Or I do the opposite if there's a boss, and I switch some very specific abilities in, depending on the type of boss it's going to be (maybe keep my bow bar mostly AoE-centric if I know that I'm going to have to take care of some adds during the fight).

After I've loaded out, I don't just spam abilities over and over again. I use abilities as they become more useful. My main weapon abilities are going to do the most damage, so I'll use them almost right away. But I have an ability that reduces armor on the target, so I'll probably open with that and use it when I need to re-apply the effect. Then I have to take in to account that some abilities I use (including that one) will boost my resource recovery or the damage of some other specific abilities. So I have to use those in an order that makes sense and maximizes my effectiveness.

If you're just spamming the same ability over and over again, you're doing it wrong.

Nooblet · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Tatuaje wrote: »

The console kiddies are limited and cannot handle more than 5 skills, therefore we all get limited.

No. No. No. No, no, no. Wrong. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

This decision was made long before they committed to a console edition of the game. And other MMOs have made a limited-hotbar design as well. It's because it forces you (as others have already pointed out) to use your brain when you choose which abilities are going to go on your bar before a particular fight. Should you have AoE abilities? Or are you only going to be hitting a single target? Is this a boss fight? If so, should you replace your CC-heavy bar with abilities that will actually affect the boss? And so on and so forth.

And to respond to the unbelievably silly suggestion that "moar buttons=moar strategy," please consider WoW (which I use simply because it's the most popular, not because it's the only game that fell/falls victim to this design issue). 100s of buttons on the screen at once. All those pretty little icons. And I guarantee that you use 5-6 of them in the same order for every. Single. Fight. If you're lucky, you may have to hit one of the other buttons just to mix it up. But about 75% of your abilities are never used once you figure out your class rotation. It kills strategy and build diversity, because everyone has the exact same loadout.

Now, this debate has already been had to death, so can we let this poor horse rest in peace?

So essentially they did the same exact thing. Except made it more of a hastle to use those situational abilities. There's only 1or 2useful abilities I swap in and out on my bars... because most of them are junk.

Also 100s - 5or 6 is not 75percent.

And sorry.. as easy as wow is.. the rotations are actually rotations. Eso is spam with light attacks in between.

Here's how my fights in dungeons generally look:

I take a moment before the fight to switch my bar loadout. I switch out single-target for AoE (if there are a lot of mobs), keep Invigorating Drain on the bar for healing if I'm not at a boss, adjust my ultimate if I want the group to have a particular synergy, etc. Or I do the opposite if there's a boss, and I switch some very specific abilities in, depending on the type of boss it's going to be (maybe keep my bow bar mostly AoE-centric if I know that I'm going to have to take care of some adds during the fight).

After I've loaded out, I don't just spam abilities over and over again. I use abilities as they become more useful. My main weapon abilities are going to do the most damage, so I'll use them almost right away. But I have an ability that reduces armor on the target, so I'll probably open with that and use it when I need to re-apply the effect. Then I have to take in to account that some abilities I use (including that one) will boost my resource recovery or the damage of some other specific abilities. So I have to use those in an order that makes sense and maximizes my effectiveness.

If you're just spamming the same ability over and over again, you're doing it wrong.

Nope... I'm a sorc. That's how we roll.

zgrssd · May 2014

subecsanur wrote: »

Btw most addons are also limited, consider the amount of changes we at times need with armor types, class, abilities and gear I think having sets changes along with abilities would be nice.

Wykkdy outfitter can do both. With the same keybind.

Seriously guys, don't be the Mudcrab of Almalexia and the Mudcrab:

And Almalexia revealed herself to the creatures, who gasped in surprise. "Mudcrab," she said, "all of these creatures have offered you help, but you refuse. You are in love with complaining, and you will never be healed."

And so Almalexia teaches us that you cannot aid the unwilling.

terence.caroneb17_ESO · May 2014

I don't understand how people still think add-ons are bad, or even complicated to install. There's an add-on folder in Mydocuments/elderscrollsonline/AddOns and you just put the add-on you downloaded in it.
Run the game, the add-ons here, you can desactivate it if you don't want it now, change settings if there are (often times there are settings to add-ons) etc ...

It's not rocket science, it doesn't affect (for most of them) your framerate, it's just pure extra. I even don't know how people can think about how to build a character without any add-on showing damages of abilities. It's like building a house blindfolded.
Furthermore, most of the add-ons you can find are not cluttering the UI cause they get invisible while you're not in combat, or you can toggle them by a key etc ...

There's really no reason whatsoever to say "I don't want add-ons I want the vanilla version of the game to have those options". Zenimax gave the opportunity to fans to create and use add-ons so that people not liking the basic UI (which is kind of "let's play skyrim in an mmo where bonus/crits/buffs are half of the combat system if not more, but they're hidden") can have their own.
It's cool, it gives you a unique UI, if you want to know where skyshards are you can, if you don't you don't download the add-on, etc ...

Now that we can't see too much infos on enemy players, there's no reason to be against it.

Also, the game is made so that your magicka/stamina/health pool is on track with the number of abilities you have. If we had the choice to set a 12 Skills combat bar, it would ruin the gameplay and make it another classic mmorpg, but with ressource management (small ressources for more than 5 skills), which would be kind of lame (most of them are cooldown' based)