Uppercut/Other 2H Weapon Skills and Templar Skills

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

This is going to be a quick intro post/original post, but is it me or does it seem like 2H is pretty god damn weak when compared to other weapon skills, especially Staffs? Like, Destro staff get's an instant cast knock back, and wall skills, and other really great things, Bows get traps and poisons and instant cast stuns and knockbacks, Dual Wielding has like no CC but *** single target DPS and even a ranged move, Sword and Shield has excellent CC and survivability, resto staff has dps AND heals when used well with class skills....Yet, we come to the 2H and see Cleave hits like a featherweight while giving a crappy Damage Shield even when fighting a lot of people, Uppercut has a damn cast timer on it, Momentum kinda just sits there and does do as much as it could, mainly because it runs out before it's super useful, and, well, yea. Reverse Slash and Critical Rush/Stampede is the best they got, seems pretty lame, no?

I say we increase the damage done by all 2H skills, decrease the cost of them slightly, and make Uppercut no longer have a cast time, or at the very least have a Morphed version of it not have a cast time.

In addition to the above, I also feel that Templar skills are kind of.....lame, especially if you compare them to other class skills, with of course the exception of our healing tree, but that worries me, almost feel like I'm being corralled into a healing role where I'd much rather DPS and throw a support spell or two out, but that could just be me.

My Dear Fellow Players, I ask, what are your thoughts on the matter?

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

Uppercut could have a little bit of a buff but at the moment the 2h tree is in a fairly decent place, it's just um... tricky - A templar 2H user might want to run something along the lines of brawler, explosive charge (aedric tree line), power of the light, blazing shield and reverse slash, fitting in rally instead of blazing shield and vampires bane instead of brawler looks as though it'd work well in groups for single target damage. Also power of the light is an insane damage ability in groups as it counts for ALL damage sources

Dorgon · May 2014

Agree with 2handers needing a boost.

Shaun98ca2 · May 2014

Cleave and its morphs if used right can be VERY valuable. The ward with the Brawler morph you just use the ability when the ward drops off and this increases your survivability, or choose the other morph for faster access to ultimate.

Uppercut.......I really don't know what to say. Its a powerful ability in its own right....it should be avoidable/blockable. And its hardly spamable due to a high cost.

Thing about 2 hander to me is .........Even though there isn't a taunt......It LOOKS like a tank/off tank Weapon IF morphed properly, ESPECIALLY for taking out trash in dungeons.

Sometimes I wonder what the correct solution to Melee vs Range damage is.

Melee for the most part as far as I see has a slight issue with disconnect(this becomes more apparent in PVP I imagine). But that's why most these skill lines also come with a closer ability to get back to your target.

Rift went the route of making Melee DPS better than Ranged DPS. So with that it became arguable that melee builds were the best regardless of their "disconnect" issues.

IF TESO got smart and made all skillz "equal", then gave a 1% boost directly to Melee. The increase would be noticeable but at the same time the disconnect issues could be argued bringing Melee back in line with the rest of the skill lines.

But that's only if 1% is the correct amount.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

1% seems a bit low, I would argue 2.5 or even 3% boost to damage and a slightly lowered cost. That said, I don't see 2H as an off tank weapon, especially when the dps or offtank role can technically be filled by literally any weapon or spell, and that's not a joke. I could probably pull as much DPS with a Sword and Board as I do now with the 2H, mainly because of the way my spells from the Templar Trees are set up. In fact, if Pierce Armor wasn't a taunt, I'd probably be using Sword and Board as my main DPS kit.

That said though, I still feel 2H needs a Damage and Utility boost, something other than simply adding in more Ultimate or taking a second, which doesn't sound like much I know, to use a move. That one second lost though equates to mobs beating the living daylights out of you, which usually equates to yet another dead adventurer, which really sucks, and why an instant cast Uppercut would be really, really nice, and also fair, since you know, other classes get them and they do extra stuff too.

Just saying.

But yea, 2H definitely needs a boost, as does some (read:most) Templar Skills, because I may want to be a Support DPS Hybrid, but I sure as hell do not want to be a dedicated healer nor be corralled into it. Ever.

Period.

Shaun98ca2 · May 2014

Templar makes a great support toon for me so far. 2hander is my current weapon of choice. Im not vet rank yet just level 30 but I do fine.

Brawler I use to keep the damage shield on me and hits multiple mobs.
Uppercut I use as a burst of dps. I am sadly sprint everywhere so when im in combat I always start out with no Stamina and fight till I get it back to use.

Learned a lot doing that as I just recently changed to the 2 hander and have all points in Magicka and Health and none in stamina.

Lovely · May 2014

I wouldn't say sword and shield has 'excellent' CC. The single target 2 second stun? I have to use Volcanic Rune to have some actual form of CC.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

step back, shield charge. Power Bash, power attack. It is waaaaaay better than anything 2H has and more so than the DW, but DW does have that sexy DPS though. Still gotta agree with me that 2H needs a significant boost to it's ability though, I can't possibly be alone in that, or less alone, I should say.

EDIT* Yea, wait until you get closer to 50 and VR content. That feeling of awesome wil diminish, especially when you see a guy next to you with a Staff do massive *** amounts of damage and barely flinch when fighting big ass groups of people/npcs.
But yea you're right, we do pretty well in groups and as Support Classes of sorts, ranging from healing to hybrids such as myself.

Drasn · May 2014

Templars make outstanding tanks and healers. Up until biting jabs ninja nerf (that wasn't so ninja) they did great melee dps. They aren't amazing ranged dps(we do have some good skills) but they aren't nightblades either, so that's something.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

Drasn · May 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

anakaki · May 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

This is going to be a quick intro post/original post, but is it me or does it seem like 2H is pretty god damn weak when compared to other weapon skills, especially Staffs? Like, Destro staff get's an instant cast knock back, and wall skills, and other really great things, Bows get traps and poisons and instant cast stuns and knockbacks, Dual Wielding has like no CC but *** single target DPS and even a ranged move, Sword and Shield has excellent CC and survivability, resto staff has dps AND heals when used well with class skills....Yet, we come to the 2H and see Cleave hits like a featherweight while giving a crappy Damage Shield even when fighting a lot of people, Uppercut has a damn cast timer on it, Momentum kinda just sits there and does do as much as it could, mainly because it runs out before it's super useful, and, well, yea. Reverse Slash and Critical Rush/Stampede is the best they got, seems pretty lame, no?

I say we increase the damage done by all 2H skills, decrease the cost of them slightly, and make Uppercut no longer have a cast time, or at the very least have a Morphed version of it not have a cast time.

In addition to the above, I also feel that Templar skills are kind of.....lame, especially if you compare them to other class skills, with of course the exception of our healing tree, but that worries me, almost feel like I'm being corralled into a healing role where I'd much rather DPS and throw a support spell or two out, but that could just be me.

My Dear Fellow Players, I ask, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Follow the streams on twitch and you'll find out that the 15m trial legit guilds all say sorcerers are better healers. NB and templar not needed. Erlexx is a templar with respected builds on foundry and says all the time Sorcerer this and DK is OP that. ZOS promotes this guy but apparently dont give a *** about feedback from him or forums.

Drasn · May 2014

anakaki wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

This is going to be a quick intro post/original post, but is it me or does it seem like 2H is pretty god damn weak when compared to other weapon skills, especially Staffs? Like, Destro staff get's an instant cast knock back, and wall skills, and other really great things, Bows get traps and poisons and instant cast stuns and knockbacks, Dual Wielding has like no CC but *** single target DPS and even a ranged move, Sword and Shield has excellent CC and survivability, resto staff has dps AND heals when used well with class skills....Yet, we come to the 2H and see Cleave hits like a featherweight while giving a crappy Damage Shield even when fighting a lot of people, Uppercut has a damn cast timer on it, Momentum kinda just sits there and does do as much as it could, mainly because it runs out before it's super useful, and, well, yea. Reverse Slash and Critical Rush/Stampede is the best they got, seems pretty lame, no?

I say we increase the damage done by all 2H skills, decrease the cost of them slightly, and make Uppercut no longer have a cast time, or at the very least have a Morphed version of it not have a cast time.

In addition to the above, I also feel that Templar skills are kind of.....lame, especially if you compare them to other class skills, with of course the exception of our healing tree, but that worries me, almost feel like I'm being corralled into a healing role where I'd much rather DPS and throw a support spell or two out, but that could just be me.

My Dear Fellow Players, I ask, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Follow the streams on twitch and you'll find out that the 15m trial legit guilds all say sorcerers are better healers. NB and templar not needed. Erlexx is a templar with respected builds on foundry and says all the time Sorcerer this and DK is OP that. ZOS promotes this guy but apparently dont give a *** about feedback from him or forums.

Stop trying to promote some other guys agenda because you have a man crush.

Templar's are better healers than sorc's. The problem is many templars don't know how to heal or even want to heal, but it's their get into raid card atm.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

So you're saying that there's zero reason to invest in stamina and medium armor - or use a weapon other than a staff for that matter? ZoS advertised this game as play as you like, and while I believe that they do actually want that, they've clearly given one way of building far too much of an advantage, it will be addressed and there's no point in telling people to just build light armor staves and magicka as it takes all the flavor out of the game.

Drasn · May 2014

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

So you're saying that there's zero reason to invest in stamina and medium armor - or use a weapon other than a staff for that matter? ZoS advertised this game as play as you like, and while I believe that they do actually want that, they've clearly given one way of building far too much of an advantage, it will be addressed and there's no point in telling people to just build light armor staves and magicka as it takes all the flavor out of the game.

Not saying that at all.

My templar primarily uses magicka but I'm damn near capped on stamina as well.

I have a V3 2-handed hammer swinging, full medium armor wearing sorc. Stamina and stam regen is capped... but so is my magicka and magicka regen.

You are meant to use everything available to you.

ZoS advertised that you can play as you like... and you can. They never said all builds will be equal.

This isn't a shot a you or anyone in particular, however I've seen the builds of some of the people who cry because they can't play the way the want. Ability choices and loadouts that look as if they were put together at 2am after a few drinks.

A terrible build is not going to get optimal results.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

So you're saying that there's zero reason to invest in stamina and medium armor - or use a weapon other than a staff for that matter? ZoS advertised this game as play as you like, and while I believe that they do actually want that, they've clearly given one way of building far too much of an advantage, it will be addressed and there's no point in telling people to just build light armor staves and magicka as it takes all the flavor out of the game.

Not saying that at all.

My templar primarily uses magicka but I'm damn near capped on stamina as well.

I have a V3 2-handed hammer swinging, full medium armor wearing sorc. Stamina and stam regen is capped... but so is my magicka and magicka regen.

You are meant to use everything available to you.

ZoS advertised that you can play as you like... and you can. They never said all builds will be equal.

This isn't a shot a you or anyone in particular, however I've seen the builds of some of the people who cry because they can't play the way the want. Ability choices and loadouts that look as if they were put together at 2am after a few drinks.

A terrible build is not going to get optimal results.

Oh I agree that a terrible build isn't going to get good results, but I just feel that when you compare, side by side two abilities, a good example being binding javelin and magnum shot. They both do relatively the same things and I would hazard that they both offer equal utility given that binding javelin's stun lasts even after additional damage is supplied. - Magnum shot both costs more and does less damage. And that's without investing into magicka.

Drasn · May 2014

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

So you're saying that there's zero reason to invest in stamina and medium armor - or use a weapon other than a staff for that matter? ZoS advertised this game as play as you like, and while I believe that they do actually want that, they've clearly given one way of building far too much of an advantage, it will be addressed and there's no point in telling people to just build light armor staves and magicka as it takes all the flavor out of the game.

Not saying that at all.

My templar primarily uses magicka but I'm damn near capped on stamina as well.

I have a V3 2-handed hammer swinging, full medium armor wearing sorc. Stamina and stam regen is capped... but so is my magicka and magicka regen.

You are meant to use everything available to you.

ZoS advertised that you can play as you like... and you can. They never said all builds will be equal.

This isn't a shot a you or anyone in particular, however I've seen the builds of some of the people who cry because they can't play the way the want. Ability choices and loadouts that look as if they were put together at 2am after a few drinks.

A terrible build is not going to get optimal results.

Oh I agree that a terrible build isn't going to get good results, but I just feel that when you compare, side by side two abilities, a good example being binding javelin and magnum shot. They both do relatively the same things and I would hazard that they both offer equal utility given that binding javelin's stun lasts even after additional damage is supplied. - Magnum shot both costs more and does less damage. And that's without investing into magicka.

It's difficult to compare 2 abilities side by side like that. They use different values to calculate their damage, and those values scale differently throughout the game.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

It warms my heart to see you people posting in here saying what you're saying. Like sweet vindication baby. But yea, Stamina based things suck compared to everything else and frankly Templars and Nightblades need love ZoS, seriously, what the hell are you thinking up there guys, this is a quick surefire way to kill your game, and you don't want to kill your game.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I....kinda sorta agree with that. We did rock with melee dps but that was without actual melee dps skills. I'm talking mostly weapon skills here, templars need a fix now thanks to ZoS thinking we were OP or something, but now my main focus is that Staffs are dumb strong while bows and DW are pretty baller, but 2H is still left high and dry. It kinda breaks my heart where I'm sitting, breaks it hard.

This is a "stamina based ability vs magicka based ability" argument then.

Take this into consideration, there are 28 stamina based abilities (not including WW) of those 20 are tied to a specific weapon(5 per). Which leaves you with 13 stamina based choices per weapon bar.

On the flip side you have 38 magicka based abilities(not including Vamp) only 10 of which are tied to a weapon(again 5 per). That's 33 magicka choices per weapon bar.

Now the argument becomes 33 vs 13.

On top of that block/sprint/CC break/sneak all cost stamina.

To add even more, there are many more magicka reduction/magicka return abilities/passives/item sets than the stamina counterparts.

Stamina based abilities were never meant to be primary DPS tools, they are there to complement your magicka based abilities.

____EDIT____
I know you are specifically talking about Two Handed, but honestly, all of the stamina based abilities fall short of their counterparts. DW is poopy. Bow is laughable after snipe. Sword-n-Board has terribad damage and the extra survivability it provides is minimal.

So you're saying that there's zero reason to invest in stamina and medium armor - or use a weapon other than a staff for that matter? ZoS advertised this game as play as you like, and while I believe that they do actually want that, they've clearly given one way of building far too much of an advantage, it will be addressed and there's no point in telling people to just build light armor staves and magicka as it takes all the flavor out of the game.

Not saying that at all.

My templar primarily uses magicka but I'm damn near capped on stamina as well.

I have a V3 2-handed hammer swinging, full medium armor wearing sorc. Stamina and stam regen is capped... but so is my magicka and magicka regen.

You are meant to use everything available to you.

ZoS advertised that you can play as you like... and you can. They never said all builds will be equal.

This isn't a shot a you or anyone in particular, however I've seen the builds of some of the people who cry because they can't play the way the want. Ability choices and loadouts that look as if they were put together at 2am after a few drinks.

A terrible build is not going to get optimal results.

Terrible builds is one thing, like I actually agree with you that if you use all AoE stuff to do single target DPS and complain about it, I'm going to smack you in the mouth. Same for using tank stuff to heal, etc. However, I am still sticking to my guns here that Templar and Night Blades need love, and Stamina should not be a supplement to Magicka only, in fact it should bend both ways if this game is to work as advertised, which is do it how you want.

Bethesda and Zenimax have always had a hard-on for mages and magic, this has been apparent in literally every TES game I've ever played, and it wasn't until I got Skyrim on the PC (afters a few years of having it on the xbox no less) that I finally got to play as a melee character that could evenly match casters; and this is with mods installed, not the naked game.

I have no idea why the hard-on exists for casters and magic, but ZoS needs to realize real fast that this type of *** does not fly in the online world, because everybody likes and needs balance in their game. Without it everyone goes one way to stay competitive, and when everyone goes one way, at least a third if not half of the game's population quits because they want to play as they feel, not as they're told. When that many people quit, your game suffers, and when your game suffers, your profits go to ***. I think you all see what comes next and get the hint.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

Soooo I found a semi decent alternative to using Momentum and weapon enchants to get my base weapon damage high enough to be comparable to some basic weapon skills, and those basic weapon skills to almost be decent as magic skills.

Problem though; I"m still as squishy as freaking ever and I can barely handle one elite mob at 7.5k HP, let alone *** 2. Lowered difficulty my ass.

jshoresabhsub17_ESO · May 2014

I'm a 2h/bow vet4 NB using a stamina build. I'm still trucking along.... but it's been rough.

Uppercut has saved my butt quite a bit, but when you can hardly survive several seconds against multiple mobs, the cast timer is brutal.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

^---Yes, that, thank you.