Constructive criticism on nerfs to shield bash

Chrysolis · May 2014

I've posted this previously but in threads that are growing increasingly negative - so I'm adding to it and separating it from the pointless flame wars. Please try to be respectful and contribute something to the conversation no matter which side of this change you fall on. I'm aware there are many other threads on this issue, but I'm not here to say that everything about the change was wrong. I'm also not saying that sword and board is completely ruined, or that I'm quitting the game. Instead I want to consider some possibilities that would make both parties (People that were previously upset about the bash damage, and people now upset about the dramatic lack of bash damage).

I think a lot of the disagreement on this change comes from a misunderstanding of the two kinds of people that really used shield bash. Nerfing bash across the board was certainly overkill in my experience; it went from a nice utility (being able to do some damage while holding block - not a lot of damage) to basically never worth using because of the stamina cost. Certainly not worth taking the passive points, as whoever did the calculations of "100% increased damage" should probably take a mathematics course. In any case, these two "bashers" are not the same:

1. Sword & Board, Heavy Armor Tank - This is where the issue now lies and I'd include myself into this category. I'd say that most people doing this focus a great deal on stats like armor, health, spell resist, and stamina. For me and others like me, up until 1.1.2, bash was a viable way to throw in some respectable (not high) damage; think two or three times a fight. In dungeons particularly where most learned tanks will be spending a lot of time blocking, it's also the option to do some damage instead of just waiting for the mob to die. I've been in public dungeons and you couldn't possibly argue that my bash was on par with the DPS around me; so to summarize - it's not really that I or others like me want to do a lot of DPS, we'd just like it to be a viable move to use sometimes. My previous damage per bash was about 268, it's now 96. That means that it basically is not worth using the stamina to use it - ever.

2. Bash Jewelry, Critical Stacking, Medium Armor DPS - This, I'm certain, is where the nerf was supposed to hit. I can't disagree that, with the right setup, this build did too much damage and too quickly. However, this setup is not really viable to tank in - its focus around stamina, crits and bash enhancements doesn't leave a lot of room leftover to be considered a tank.

I think the problem here lies in ZOS' solution. I would say that the 2nd type certainly needed a reduction in damage - however, the 1st did not. I think this could have been accomplished in a number of more insightful ways.

Reduce the bash-critical hit coefficient: Since the problem-child of bashing revolves around jewelry and critical hits, reducing (or even removing) bash critical hit damage would have effectively targeted the proper demographic (2nd type) that needed adjustment.
Add a brief cool-down/delay to bash: I can't speak for everyone, but as a tank I never personally just sat there spamming bash. I need my stamina for other skills. If I was still able to perform a substantial bash 2-3 times in a fight then I think the effect of the nerf would be far less than it currently is.
Add a bash passive into the heavy armor tree: Since most of the enormous damage being wrought was focused around the stamina/regen/crit builds, this would also be a way to keep the 1st type of bash user in a viable state while addressing the problems with the 2nd type.
Base bash damage on Health, Armor, or both: This is somewhat self-explanatory I think - it's much more difficult to stack these stats in concordance with the crit and bash jewelry which made the skill so over the top.
Increase the number of interruptable attacks in PVE: The new mechanic does allow for comparable damage when stopping spells; unfortunately, with most "worldly mobs", these are few and far between. I don't want to say increase the number of power attacks from monsters necessarily, but if more attacks could be stopped in this way then tanks could be both more useful to the group, and be able to maintain a decent amount of damage throughout more fights.
Increase the quantity of stamina used: Since the problem with bash tended to be more about spamming the ability, this change might both make stamina a more important stat for tanks, and significantly reduce the opportunity to overuse bash.

I somehow doubt any of these suggestions will be adhered to, yet I really hope that the idea of shield bashing doesn't just permanently exit the ESO scene because of a few people taking advantage. I did really enjoy that aspect of the game and felt like it added a lot of flavor - this is the first MMO that I actually chose to level up purely as a tank. I want to reiterate one last time that we, the tanky DKs using sword & board builds, usually aren't asking to do DPS-level damage as a tank. We'd just like to do some. I know that this game is not comparable to other Elder Scrolls games, yet it's worth mentioning that 1 hand + shield in those games was always a powerful build with respectable amounts of damage - I was rather content to see that it remained so in ESO, and now - well, less so.

Thanks for reading and I hope we can keep this discussion civil. This isn't a matter of "l2p", "QQ" or even "lol DK wants 2 be overpowered". If that is your contention there are several other inflammatory threads you can leave your remarks in.

Dagoth_Rac · May 2014

I now do less damage with shield bash than with a 1H light attack. Why would anyone use 2 Skill Points for an attack that does less damage than a light attack and that uses more stamina? Put the damage of bash back to what it was but get rid of bash enchantments. Or cap it so you cannot load up on 12 bash enchantments and give yourself insane bash damage, etc.

This bash nerf hurt the people using bash as intended. It should have been done in a way that nerfed the people exploiting it, not the people using it as intended.

At the least, just get rid of the now useless Deadly Bash passive and replace it with something worthwhile.

Evergreen · May 2014

I'm a Nightblade and one of those people who over-relied on bash up until VR 5+ content. Bash lost usefulness in higher level areas from my experience so I had to adapt a different play style saving stamina for immovable since the mobs hit so hard.

On the PvP side of the game bash was actually more of a problem and needed balancing, at least it was a minor adjustment to the passive.

TheGrimaceOR · May 2014

There is nothing wrong with the shield bash nerf. It was a brilliant way to implement it. They were considering a 5 second cooldown on the ability which would have been game breaking considering cooldowns are not supposed to exist in the game not counting various animation cooldowns. So instead they made it where if you bash when you are supposed to the way the mechanic was intended you get full damage just like before the patch. I felt stupid that my shield was doing more damage than my sword. Guess I am one of those weird people that thinks a axe should be a better attacking weapon than a shield.

Chrysolis · May 2014

I will have to disagree that the implementation was brilliant. If it were, I doubt very much that there would be so many dissatisfied players respeccing out of the 1h+shield tree. There is already some degree of cooldowns masquerading as skill delay - which would be fine for bash. I can't say if that's unintentional or not since skill delay has existed since the outset of my ESO experience, but it does effectively block spamming a single ability.

I don't consider it weird at all to think that your sword should do more than your shield. But with that being said, this is already the case - pre-nerf, my sword heavy attacks hit for 387 while my shield bashed for 268. The melee attack also has the added benefit of knocking down disoriented enemies, and costing no stamina. I doubt many people will disagree with you that your weapon should do more damage than your shield, however the support for weapon damage currently leaves something to be desired.

Noahhill · May 2014

You are so classy. I am a dk tank 49 in hp and suited in quicksilver heavy armor. When I would PVE I would use a little over half my stamina bashing and blocking so I can use my sword to knock the mob to the ground then repeat. If I was soloing 3 or more I would hold my ground by bashing to 2/3 stamina and block the heavy hits and knock em down. Sure it's easy enough but once you run out of stamina there is no way to defend yourself with blocking and you wouldn't be in the steady groove of the fight and find yourself overwhelmed. I have stopped playing ESO because I was in auridon when I loaded my game post update and found the tank build was unplayable. I can no longer complete quest, solo 3 mobs, find a skill in the tree that is worth the cost when I do nearly the same damage as a cost less quick swing of my purple sword. I haven't even entered PVP yet (if I can't kill 3 dremora how can I kill a player)
Anyways all I intended to say is you are classy and you should be hired by ZOS.