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Changing the class abilities or loot for players because of bots is wrong and not our fault.
GrimCyclone
✭✭✭✭✭
It is your fault.
Just because you cannot figure out a better way to thwart bots doesn't mean we should have to suffer for it. You have never and will never stop them unless you ban them outright. You think that putting band-aids on the problem is going to fix things, and yet the net result is the bots are just figuring out new ways to get theirs and trucking right on along as usual.
Meanwhile, the players are getting shafted with bugs that have been reported since closed beta. You took all the good loot out of Sanguines Demense, why? Because people could bot the dungeon. Let me tell you something Zenimax. If you can record the input of something, the you can easily script contingencies around that. Your attempts to stop them are doing nothing but hindering us and our experience.
You need to BAN them. If WE can tell who they are, then YOU can tell who they are. You simply point at the bot and ZAP. They're account is DISABLED. No more questions. If you would simply do that manually, eventually they're going to stop buying more accounts. And if they're buying accounts for free because you're allowing them to get free copies via cancel/charge back then stop offering digital copies. Or at least make them no refund.
Manual enforcement and hurting them in their wallet is the only way to demoralize them. Until you do that, they are simply going to keep on making you curtail our experience until there is no joy left. Have you not thought this through? You need to BAN them.
Just because you cannot figure out a better way to thwart bots doesn't mean we should have to suffer for it. You have never and will never stop them unless you ban them outright. You think that putting band-aids on the problem is going to fix things, and yet the net result is the bots are just figuring out new ways to get theirs and trucking right on along as usual.
Meanwhile, the players are getting shafted with bugs that have been reported since closed beta. You took all the good loot out of Sanguines Demense, why? Because people could bot the dungeon. Let me tell you something Zenimax. If you can record the input of something, the you can easily script contingencies around that. Your attempts to stop them are doing nothing but hindering us and our experience.
You need to BAN them. If WE can tell who they are, then YOU can tell who they are. You simply point at the bot and ZAP. They're account is DISABLED. No more questions. If you would simply do that manually, eventually they're going to stop buying more accounts. And if they're buying accounts for free because you're allowing them to get free copies via cancel/charge back then stop offering digital copies. Or at least make them no refund.
Manual enforcement and hurting them in their wallet is the only way to demoralize them. Until you do that, they are simply going to keep on making you curtail our experience until there is no joy left. Have you not thought this through? You need to BAN them.
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Oblongship✭✭✭✭So far that is their tactic...
Hell I was typing to my friend back and forth and I submitted to many messages to fast and it booted me...
How do I know? That is what the error told me...
And not just a small boot...all the way to where I had to log back in...
ZoS can't figure how to fight bots so they "balance" the way players can play the game to deal with them.5 -
Haxer✭✭✭Hilariously awesome picture,and I agree. This weekend as I reporting my zillienth bot I was thinking to myself, why doesn't Zenimax just pay one person (or one in each faction) to play the game. And as they are playing the game, and see bots, zap gone.
Because you don't have to try hard to see them. You just find them very obviously, and in the same usual places, just while you go about playing the game.
(Heck, I volunteer! Zenimax hire me)
PS. Whenever they come on and say "whisper me if you see bots", has anyone ever been able to actually whisper them? I have not, and same with everyone in zone chat whenever that happens.www.dragontears.boards.net1 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I clicked reply and realized I was replying to yet another Ban the Bots thread and promptly slapped myself.This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
We're sad to see you go now, but we'll be happy to welcome you back at any time! Whenever you're ready to come back, your characters will be waiting for you, just like you left them. You can return anytime by resubscribing on the Manage Subscription page on your Elder Scrolls Online account.
Please print this email and keep it for your records.3 -
LIQUID741✭✭✭Hilariously awesome picture,and I agree. This weekend as I reporting my zillienth bot I was thinking to myself, why doesn't Zenimax just pay one person (or one in each faction) to play the game. And as they are playing the game, and see bots, zap gone.
Because you don't have to try hard to see them. You just find them very obviously, and in the same usual places, just while you go about playing the game.
(Heck, I volunteer! Zenimax hire me)
PS. Whenever they come on and say "whisper me if you see bots", has anyone ever been able to actually whisper them? I have not, and same with everyone in zone chat whenever that happens.
The paid person, could just ask in Z chat about assumed botting, investigate and deal with it...this way they wouldnt have to camp out to find them...let us do their work..false reportings could be dealt with as well.
Solid-Nightblade of AD0 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭Agree 100% with OP.
This is part of the reason why I cancelled my sub. The way Zen has handled all the bots/bugs/exploits is some of the worst I have ever seen. It is a strong indication of how incapable they are at running an MMORPG.
How do you release this game without expecting bots? Literally every MMORPG has to deal with bots. This is basic stuff. It took them months just to start to get the bots under control. And forum PMs are still disabled. It is not a hard problem; every game before ESO has already solved it.
And then there is the teleporting/speedhacks/invisibility hacks. How do you not do any server-side validation? Could you make it any easier to hack? I don't think so. I can literally spend 3 minutes on the web, download a hack, and be cheating in game without fear of getting banned (yeah no client side cheat-detection either). Any player can do that, RIGHT NOW. It's that easy. Once again, this is a problem that literally every other MMORPG has had to deal with and already solved. How do you not expect this to be an issue?
Nerfing biting jabs was the last straw. The obvious cluelessness on Zen's part is astounding. Not only is this completely ineffective at combating botting, but it cripples an already weak and poorly designed class. I guess on the plus side, a whole bunch of Templars are quitting, so there will be less complaining overall. I don't blame them though. I'll be surprised if there are any Templars or NBs left after this month's sub runs out.4 -
No, it's the fault of players who buy gold. They are enabling the bots by purchasing their services. If people refrained from using gold sellers, then there would be no bots in the game.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »No, it's the fault of players who buy gold. They are enabling the bots by purchasing their services. If people refrained from using gold sellers, then there would be no bots in the game.
If prices weren't so ridiculously expensive for things like bank space and repairs and respecs and horses, and the best upgrades weren't so rare, then people wouldn't feel the need to buy gold from someone and/or exploit.
This makes it the fault of the game designers.Edited by babylon on 27 May 2014 19:496 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »No, it's the fault of players who buy gold. They are enabling the bots by purchasing their services. If people refrained from using gold sellers, then there would be no bots in the game.
Are you really trying to blame the gold buyers for the bots? Is this your first MMO? Anything that can be botted will be botted. Regardless of whether there is high demand or low demand for gold. Botters are gonna bot. It has been like this since the beginning of time.
It is 100% the responsibility of the designers to stop botting.3 -
temjiu✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »Agree 100% with OP.
This is part of the reason why I cancelled my sub. The way Zen has handled all the bots/bugs/exploits is some of the worst I have ever seen. It is a strong indication of how incapable they are at running an MMORPG.
How do you release this game without expecting bots? Literally every MMORPG has to deal with bots. This is basic stuff. It took them months just to start to get the bots under control. And forum PMs are still disabled. It is not a hard problem; every game before ESO has already solved it.
And then there is the teleporting/speedhacks/invisibility hacks. How do you not do any server-side validation? Could you make it any easier to hack? I don't think so. I can literally spend 3 minutes on the web, download a hack, and be cheating in game without fear of getting banned (yeah no client side cheat-detection either). Any player can do that, RIGHT NOW. It's that easy. Once again, this is a problem that literally every other MMORPG has had to deal with and already solved. How do you not expect this to be an issue?
Nerfing biting jabs was the last straw. The obvious cluelessness on Zen's part is astounding. Not only is this completely ineffective at combating botting, but it cripples an already weak and poorly designed class. I guess on the plus side, a whole bunch of Templars are quitting, so there will be less complaining overall. I don't blame them though. I'll be surprised if there are any Templars or NBs left after this month's sub runs out.
QFT. It (botters) is not THE reason that i cancelled. it was everything that added up...and it added up fast enough that I was suprised. This was is odd for me. When I like a game, I tend to stick through it to the end (or until i get bored, which so far has been a rough 2 yr time frame). I lvoed this game when it came out. I actually wasn't planning on playing it, was just going to wait till something else came out and float along in marvel heroes and SWtOR. but this game sucked me in, and levels1-50 were really a blast. but...
I was shocked to find after a month that the frustrations had simply built up to a level that I didn't want to play. it's not A or B or C with me...it's the fact that every little thing...from punitive costs for every QoL aspect of the game...to bag/bank space that penalizes you for wanting to do MORE of the game, for having a completely different game from 1-50 then it is the rest of the game, to the severe class and skill line imbalances (not just is light armor best for a tank, but medium armor and heavy simply can't compete in most arenas), to most of the stamina based builds being non-competitive, to the bugs....and then on top of that the players suffer because they don't want to make the hard decisions on how to control the bots.
The thing here is...bots do it to MAKE MONEY. players play (and pay thei 15$ a month) to HAVE FUN. when you kill the fun to reduce botters...botters find a way around it. they don't care...THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY. players have 2 dozen other ways they can have fun.
The LAST thing you want to do is kill players fun to try and kill the bots. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. What other MMO's are doing is developing their game in a way to allow players to have fun, but in a way that reduces the botters capacity to MAKE MONEY.
In other words, they realized that throwing the baby out with the bathwater does not a clean baby make. you keep the baby, and eliminate what is causing the dirt. Baby stays clean.Edited by temjiu on 27 May 2014 20:242 -
TicToc✭✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »I clicked reply and realized I was replying to yet another Ban the Bots thread and promptly slapped myself.
it's not a ban the bots thread, though it was suggested. The thread is about not balancing characters skills around bot usage of said skills. That's worse than balancing PvE skills around PvP. Bots are a pain, but making player skills less useful is not the proper fix. Deal with the bots directly.2 -
GrimCyclone✭✭✭✭✭I'd love to be the one zapping them. Imagine if you could do it with the Alien Blaster from Fallout 3. That'd be so badass.0
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fiachsidhe✭✭✭magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »No, it's the fault of players who buy gold. They are enabling the bots by purchasing their services. If people refrained from using gold sellers, then there would be no bots in the game.
The source of people who buy gold can also be traced back to game design.
They designed a game to rely entirely on player driven economy, then hindered us with guild stores.
They lied to us about monetizing us, then put a horse in a cash shop, after raising horse prices to stupidly high levels. (45k for a new horse, that I also need to dump 250g into every day for a few months just to get it up to par?)
Armor repair is ridiculous at high levels (my last armor bill was 1600-1900g). As is banks space. Teleporting without a shrine.
Vender items are over priced and nothing sells for more than a single gold save some junk items/pots and those don't sell for much more.
By making everything a gold sink, and not providing a good means of making money, all Zenimax did was invite gold selling. And now that people are buying it, they are doing a *** poor job of controlling the problem.Edited by fiachsidhe on 27 May 2014 23:37Don't have an intelligent argument? Just LOL a post!
Dire Crow - Ebonheart Pact - Dunmer Nightblade3 -
Tendeep✭✭✭fiachsidhe wrote: »magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »By making everything a gold sink, and not providing a good means of making money, all Zenimax did was invite gold selling. And now that people are buying it, they are doing a *** poor job of controlling the problem.
This, I completely agree...Edited by Tendeep on 27 May 2014 23:550 -
dennissomb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »No, it's the fault of players who buy gold. They are enabling the bots by purchasing their services. If people refrained from using gold sellers, then there would be no bots in the game.
This is only partly true unfortunately. Obviously the gold sellers make up the largest part of the Bot issue, but there are also plenty of players who bot, hack, cheat, dupe, etc. matter of fact one of the sources of income for the RMT companies Is selling bot/hack/cheat programs2 -
badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you're saying biting jabs was nerfed because the bots used it? More like the bots helped bring to light a skill that was already a problem, I have a templar, and even I feel like that skill needed a bit of a nerf.[DC/NA]0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you're saying biting jabs was nerfed because the bots used it? More like the bots helped bring to light a skill that was already a problem, I have a templar, and even I feel like that skill needed a bit of a nerf.
Yes , ofc , by the way , what lvl is your templar?"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭My templar is a level 30.
yeap , that is what i thought you would say mate.
Let me tell you , get to VR lvls , and try that same bitting jab , you will see how good it is trully.
You also have the pleasure of doing it , with DKs destroying the mobs with ease by your side , it will be awesome.
Templars are horrible at the dps role mate.
That just not appear so clear before VR lvls , i also like you , believed we were ok before i got there and saw it."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭No offense, but sometimes I despise being called 'mate', it just sounds so condescending.
I still don't buy this theory that ZOS nerfed biting jabs because of bots using it. They use every class and skill from what I've seen. Biting jabs just worked best, so most of them used that.
Is there any proof that ZOS made this change based on bots and not to balance that skill with the other classes/skills? Assuming it's true, why? What will it accomplish? Can't the bots just pick something else? Or adapt to the changes? It's not like a little nerf is going to upset a bot, they're machines, they care not how hard or easy it is.[DC/NA]0 -
No offense, but sometimes I despise being called 'mate', it just sounds so condescending.
I still don't buy this theory that ZOS nerfed biting jabs because of bots using it. They use every class and skill from what I've seen. Biting jabs just worked best, so most of them used that.
Is there any proof that ZOS made this change based on bots and not to balance that skill with the other classes/skills? Assuming it's true, why? What will it accomplish? Can't the bots just pick something else? Or adapt to the changes? It's not like a little nerf is going to upset a bot, they're machines, they care not how hard or easy it is.
No1 does.
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drschplatt✭✭✭✭I do find the cost of items compared to the amount of money one can make in game, to be a very depressing ratio. I'm glad I got the pre-order horse because the cost of horses are just way too high when you consider you MUST have bag upgrades if you want to play the game in any kind of fun and relaxing way. Why on earth would I want to run back to town after every single quest to just deal with the crap I pick up? So, you spend 40k on bag upgrades as you can afford them.
If the cost/value/earning power was better balanced, I bet there wouldn't be as big a market for gold sellers.
It does make me less interested in the game as well when in zone chat you see people offering 500 - 600 of the special crafting items that I've only managed to collect 30 of during my travels from level 1 to level 50.Foräois - Imperial Sorcerer of Ineptitude.
Widoch - Nord Dragon Knight of Ignorance.
Billy Bob - Dunmer Templar of Chicken and Noodles.
Blades of Vengeance1 -
KracsNZ✭✭No offense, but sometimes I despise being called 'mate', it just sounds so condescending.
I still don't buy this theory that ZOS nerfed biting jabs because of bots using it. They use every class and skill from what I've seen. Biting jabs just worked best, so most of them used that.
Is there any proof that ZOS made this change based on bots and not to balance that skill with the other classes/skills? Assuming it's true, why? What will it accomplish? Can't the bots just pick something else? Or adapt to the changes? It's not like a little nerf is going to upset a bot, they're machines, they care not how hard or easy it is.
There was no balancing needed. Biting Jabs was the only magicka based melee DPS ability in the Templar skill tree, and only viable melee AoE (other than a morph to Solar Flare - Barrage). Never OP in PvP but an ability that brought us up to par with other classes, and for PvE (especially vet lvls) it was just right (even pre-nerf mobs hit you in-between jabs).
And if this had been intentional, it would of made it into the patch notes, or one of the 'oops, we forgot about this fix' posts. Whether it was to hit bots, or a stealth nerf, the fact is they didn't even try to communicate the change (that was highlighted early on PTS) is what really pissed allot of people off. i.e. I don't believe the "This was not intended, and we do apologize." below.ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin wrote:May 23 Staff Post
Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.
In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.
This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.
They actually quote it as high single-target dps? Wow.2 -
tanthil✭✭✭pretty dure its the reason behind bitting jabs nerf aswell as i cannot think of another reason to take the argueably lowest dps class and nerf their best ability, other then the fact all the bots you would see were using it1 -
GrimCyclone✭✭✭✭✭(Top 40 DJ Voice)This next track is an old but goodie. Zenimax, baby, this one's for you. Because you're giving me those shattered dreams! Oooh yeaaah.
I'm joking, I'm joking. Hey, it's a great song!
Anywho, thanks for the feedback guys.1 -
KracsNZ✭✭GrimCyclone wrote: »(Top 40 DJ Voice)This next track is an old but goodie. Zenimax, baby, this one's for you. Because you're giving me those shattered dreams! Oooh yeaaah.
I'm joking, I'm joking. Hey, it's a great song!
Anywho, thanks for the feedback guys.
Oh dear, you're gonna create a new Rick-roll with that one... lol.1 -
GrimCyclone✭✭✭✭✭Oh dear, you're gonna create a new Rick-roll with that one... lol.
I heard that song again after a long time of not hearing it somehow since the 80's when I was in college during my second art class in early 2000. I had a crush on my teacher. She liked me, but was married. Man she was a hottie.
Now whenever I hear this song again, it reminds me of that girl.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctwqa3QCwMw