ESO - sadly - is not an MMO

idk · May 2014

I will agree that ESO is not the traditional MMO in that it really has nothing that fosters a community. Nothing that brings groups together like a central hub or any other system in the game that is central. I have never felt more like a single player in an MMO as I do in this game. I enjoy the game, but grouping is a chore, more so since the grouping tool is still broken. I always enjoy starting a group only to lose group lead, no one else getting it, and having the other guildies give it a shot until someone can successfully start a group without losing lead.

Bromburak · May 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

Yes, this is slightly misleading.

Yep, title should be changed into "ESO - sadly - is not the right MMO for me".

ashenb14_ESO · May 2014

aleister wrote: »

It's certainly not the MMO I expected. I was expecting/hoping for a game that gave me choice in how I wanted to progress. One that offered more reasons and benefits to grouping and would allow me to gain xp and progress that way rather than being forced into tedious, over-scripted solo quests (frequently forced solo with no option to group). Let me do the quests only if I want to. If I'm not interested, I shouldn't be forced to do them and I should have other ways to progress at the same rate.

actually its been proven that grinding is the fastest way to level not questing, read some other forums, there are leveling guides none rely on questing, you need to do the main line quests to get to the VR areas but once you hit 50, the only one I found a challenge was the one that ends in you killing molog bal and once you figure out the trick even that ones not to hard.

ashenb14_ESO · May 2014

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I will agree that ESO is not the traditional MMO in that it really has nothing that fosters a community. Nothing that brings groups together like a central hub or any other system in the game that is central. I have never felt more like a single player in an MMO as I do in this game. I enjoy the game, but grouping is a chore, more so since the grouping tool is still broken. I always enjoy starting a group only to lose group lead, no one else getting it, and having the other guildies give it a shot until someone can successfully start a group without losing lead.

if you wana group join a decent pve/pvp guild, KoJo is always accepting new members if you send @roguestryder in game mail he can invite you, though the guilds mostly ebonheart with a growing daggerfall population.

it also helps if you have a mic and Mumble, people are happy to go back and help guildies get threw content they cant solo.

I spent 2 nights just walking guildies threw group dungeons on the daggerfall side with my vr2, sure they got no xp along the way, but we cleared each dungeon in 15min or less and got them their quest xp and skill points.

i agree they need a better system for pug grouping, but honestly, its no worse then queing for a pug in neverwinter, a game with a horrible auto grouping system that only works if it can put what the dev's feel is the idea group makeup togather, if it cant find you a healer or "tank" it wont create the group, so it leads to people spamming LFG and zone chat asking if anybody wants to do X content with you....kinda a pain in the ass honestly....(being kind here)

I prefer ESO's build to mmos that require you to constantly group, or to constantly group and run the same dungeons over and over to get to max level as quick as possible.....i never have liked that mechanic in mmo's.....Ultima Online was my first true mmo and the OP would hate it, it had ZERO dungeon queing system, no forced group content, grouping was done by asking if anybody wanted to run X dungeon in global or area chats....it was a blast!!!

drogon1 · May 2014

ashenb14_ESO wrote: »

if you wana group join a decent pve/pvp guild, KoJo is always accepting new members if you send @roguestryder in game mail he can invite you, though the guilds mostly ebonheart with a growing daggerfall population.

Many folks are missing the point, or being consumed by mere semantic arguments caused by the hook in the title.

How can the OP say that ESO is not an MMO? Absurd! Fail!

"MMO" is a label that can be applied to your cat if you like. I'm not arguing that. I meant it in a particular way, which I specified. I specified that pretty much ALL the triple-AAA MMOs that populate the genre encourage players to group up to accomplish more challenging group content (for PvE this usually means dungeons, flashpoints, instanced content, etc.). Players receive XP from completing group content, and have it as an option for advancing their characters.

ESO is the odd bird out that doesn't permit this (pre-VR). Folks that have played and are familiar with the regular AAA MMOs (such as the ones I listed), would find this astonishing. As I did.

I consider advancing one's character by completing group content in PVE a fundamental expectation of the triple AAA MMO genre, and in that PARTICULAR sense, find the description of ESO as an MMO misleading. It certainly mislead me into buying it, expecting a normal MMO in this basic respect.

The issue is summed up easily: many would like to group up for group content (not group up for single player content), but are penalized for doing so (they get essentially no xp from doing dungeons - I calculated that at lvl 20 I'd have to run a dungeon over 200 times to make level 21 lol). This is, I argue, bad game design for an MMO. This is an opinion. That the game currently works this way is a fact. That the descriptive MMO as applied to ESO is misleading in this particular manner is a fact.

Btw, I do love the game - just not what they've done with character progression to VR content.

drogon1 · May 2014

Bromburak wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

Yes, this is slightly misleading.

Yep, title should be changed into "ESO - sadly - is not the right MMO for me".

That title would work also.

But a better title would be:

ESO is a Single Player "MMO" - a new genre of AAA MMO. This is because ESO contravenes what you've come to expect from the other AAA MMOs in the genre: it penalizes players who prefer group content over single player content. There is only a single viable route to max lvl 50: questing single player content at least over 90% of your time. (Unless you PvP, in which case perhaps the new boosts to xp make PvP a viable route also, though I'm doubtful.)

frwinters_ESO · May 2014

WAIT!? I am not playing an MMO? A Massivly Multiplayer online game? There isnt thousands of people all playing this one game at the same exact time as me? Im asounded and want a refund!

*sarcasm over*

This is a MMO. Your statement is more against the path ZOS has taken compared to other MMO's. The progression is just about the same as every MMO you listed.

Make Character
Quest
Level Up
End Game or PVP

If you dont want to quest then grind anchors, delves, dungeons, its possible but you have to be socialble to do all of that.

the problem most people have is they want to solo this game and cant do the group content. They feel all content should be solo able or group. No.

No. and no. You can nto just cater to one group so you got to give a bit to them all. It will never fully be balanced and one group will accuse ZOS of favoritism of another group all the time, but thats what an MMO is.

This is an MMO.

drogon1 · May 2014

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

WAIT!? I am not playing an MMO? A Massivly Multiplayer online game? There isnt thousands of people all playing this one game at the same exact time as me? Im asounded and want a refund!

*sarcasm over*

This is a MMO. Your statement is more against the path ZOS has taken compared to other MMO's. The progression is just about the same as every MMO you listed.

Make Character
Quest
Level Up
End Game or PVP

If you dont want to quest then grind anchors, delves, dungeons, its possible but you have to be socialble to do all of that.

the problem most people have is they want to solo this game and cant do the group content. They feel all content should be solo able or group. No.

No. and no. You can nto just cater to one group so you got to give a bit to them all. It will never fully be balanced and one group will accuse ZOS of favoritism of another group all the time, but thats what an MMO is.

This is an MMO.

Not sure why I'm bothering. But....

What game are you playing? Please explain how you can grind levels in dungeons before the end of the current decade?

Inform yourself bef you blow stuff out the hole.

Khafar · May 2014

ESO is a Single Player "MMO" - a new genre of AAA MMO.

Hyperbole, and hardly "new". As I mentioned before, Asheron's Call was an early MMO which has essentially zero group content. I've played LOTRO off and on for 8 years now, and while it certainly has some group content, essentially nobody uses that as the primary means of advancing their character - solo questing easily makes up 80% of character advancement there, and I'd bet it's closer to 90%. Even in WoW, most people solo most of the time. It wasn't until 3 levels below the level cap where PlayOn's instrumentation of the WoW servers found that 50% of players were grouped (and then only because the end-game was so group-centric).

It's natural for people to think they're the "norm" in how the game is played. Last year, raiders were completely shocked (and angry) when Turbine revealed that raiders only make up about 10% of their players. But their disbelief didn't make it any less true.

Bromburak · May 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

Yes, this is slightly misleading.

Yep, title should be changed into "ESO - sadly - is not the right MMO for me".

That title would work also.

But a better title would be:

ESO is a Single Player "MMO" - a new genre of AAA MMO. This is because ESO contravenes what you've come to expect from the other AAA MMOs in the genre: it penalizes players who prefer group content over single player content. There is only a single viable route to max lvl 50: questing single player content at least over 90% of your time. (Unless you PvP, in which case perhaps the new boosts to xp make PvP a viable route also, though I'm doubtful.)

So you did in GW2 and WoW ...

The reasons is that games that require groups for questing will always fail because of individual play style and some zones or level ranges have not enough players during certain server times.

We all have our different pla style and this includes immersion, the speed and how to read quest texts.

Whenever you would need longer to read a quest text a group would kick you or prefer a different player anyway like in SWTOR because you are not skipping quest texts for example.

Thats why it makes no sense to push quest based group content.

aleister · May 2014

Bromburak wrote: »

Thats why it makes no sense to push quest based group content.

Ideally, you'd have the choice - solo if you want, or group if you want, and not be forced into one or the other.

ZeroInspiration · May 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

Yes, this is slightly misleading. BUT it is no more misleading than claiming that it IS an MMO. Let me explain.

MMOs differ from single player games primarily in the content they offer: MMOs offer a plethora of group content in addition to the single player content offered in a single player title. Traditional triple-A MMOs - for example, WoW, GW2, FF VIX, Rift, Lotro, SWTOR - enable a player to advance their character through single player content (almost exclusively single player content quests) and through group content (dungeons, group quests, pvp). These MMOs enable a player to advance their character viably through all the content (both group and single player content) they offer. The player is free to choose between single player content or group content depending on their individual preferences, and is not penalized in their advancement.

Enter ESO that UNDERMINES this basic MMO experience and expectation.

In ESO, to reach VR levels, the player has only ONE viable route: single-player content, exclusively. The game offers the plethora of MMO group content (dungeons, pvp), but has - astonishly - decided that you CANNOT advance your character by doing it.

In short, ESO is the odd game that offers MMO group content to the player, but prevents him from advancing his character by playing it.

This has a number of negative consequences:

First, there is actually NO reason to play a character specialized for group play. Playing a healer or tank through exclusively single player content can be fun, but for the average MMO player, it will not be done.

Second, grouping is pointless. I am not talking about the phasing mechanics here. The single player content in ESO as in most MMOs is common denominator and fairly faceroll. Grouping to do it makes it even less challenging - and unfun - than it already is.

Third, making an alt in the same faction is pointless, unless you enjoy performing the same quests (designed for the single-player) that you already did.

Fourth, although the xp is marginally better in PvP than in PvE group content, advancing your character in PvP is too onerous to be considered viable (especially as being underleveled you will expect to be facerolled out there).

In sum, it is misleading to advertise ESO as an MMO. Bizarrely, it tells the MMO player - "Look at all this wonderful group content we offer, just DON'T TOUCH!" I bought the Imperial Edition of this game expecting an MMO. You can say I'm pretty angry.

You make an excelent point and one that a great deal of the community does not see and the devs don't mention. ESO is NOT made for the hardcore MMORPG player, you guys eat through the content way too fast, almost as if the world was going to end tomorrow. And that's ok, it's just how you do things. But ESO, it would seem to me, is designed to be taken with a much slower pace. Instead of rushing to VR you are supposed to enjoy the quests (which imo are the best I have played in a MMO, I actually cared about some quest characters) and the scenery. In fact this is made evident by VR ranks themselves, to me they are nothing else but a MMO version of what in a SP game would be called New Game+.

The problem lies in that the Devs never have (or will) say this, until of course the community shrinks and the only players that are left are the ones that realize and enjoy this design. By then the hardcore locusts will have devoured the content and moved on to another game that fulfills their desire (*that other new MMO*)

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · May 2014

If the OP by MMO means a WoW clone NO THANK YOU. Go play Wildstar. Shoo shoo

WE DO NOT WANT another WoW CLONE.

And the OP hand picked the other games to compare it with. Why not compare it with SWG, DAOC, UO, EVE, SB, AoC? (or even Darkfall for that matter).

Of the games above only AoC & DF came after WoW by the way.

drogon1 · May 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

If the OP by MMO means a WoW clone NO THANK YOU. Go play Wildstar. Shoo shoo

WE DO NOT WANT another WoW CLONE.

And the OP hand picked the other games to compare it with. Why not compare it with SWG, DAOC, UO, EVE, SB, AoC? (or even Darkfall for that matter).

Of the games above only AoC & DF came after WoW by the way.

By all means compare it to DAOC, my favorite MMO of all time. There you can do so many things to advance your toon. Here, in ESO, not so. Didn't play the other titles so other will have to chime in.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · May 2014

DAOC had only GRIND to advance your character. Only with Catacombs they created the "instance grind", that killed the game. Having the rest of the world left alone and unexplored.

At least here we have some great storylines to do quests, and we are not forced to grind.

While from level 10 you can hop to Cyrodiil and leave PvE behind.

wafcatb14_ESO · May 2014

Hmmm where to start . almost all MMO offer more than 1 way to lvl your character and off more than 1 zone per lvl range in which to quest/exp etc . Take Eq , or wow , or Rift , DAOC and Warhammer as examples at lvl 5 you could choose to go to 3 or 4 completly diff zones desgined for lvl 5 - 15 content , each with completly diff quest etc to do . so if you wanted to see something diff you could .

Enter ESO competly story driven quest lvling treadmill , that only has 1 zone per lvl range ie 5-15 etc as example and best way to lvl is by quest grinding and doing the personal story which if you don`t do gimps your toon . And the personal story is the same regardless of race or faction haha sad .

So basicly the game has little to no replay value wtf reroll a alt on the same faction only to go through the same personal story and to grind the same zones and redo all the same quests you already did .

the only option is to reroll a diff faction but you still have the same personal story to do /yawn

Terrible user interface , clunky, almost useless guild store , can`t even search by item name lol . chat /grouping options not much better , LFG while you don`t really need one is pretty bad as well , map is very annoying press M and every time you need to scroll out and 90 % of the time even after scrolling you need to click on the map pin and select the zone you are in to actualy see the whole map haha .

It`s like they had a bunch on interns do their user interface as a summer project for school but none of them had ever played a MMO . lol .

Rev Rielle · May 2014

It most certainly is an MMO, it's just not what you think an MMO should be it. And clearly, from this thread, there's a world of difference.

Snowstrider · May 2014

Sadly there just isnt any in ESO which brings people together as a community. The game really needs more community friendly content. They need to bring out the more "fun" elements from MMO to this,Events,Holydays (lore friendly ones) New mounts,More cuztomisation (Please

) I mean when i simply dont feel like questing or adventuring,There isnt much to do. Well of course there is but..

Just wish the game had more sandbox elements,Or atleast things that brings to community together.

I hope they fix the grouping,And add more depth to character advancement.

I like the game,But without a strong community the game isnt much. There is alot to add and improve on. I think zenimax are listening. Alot of the things i complained about got fixed and added in the craglorn update,My problem with that update is just how many bugs and crashes it causes,people cant even log in to the game,I hope they learn from their mistake.

Cogo · May 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

What you are saying is its not the MMORPG that you feel it SHOULD be, which is still fine and acceptable, but should not be presented as fact. (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ

/sigh

What I am saying - again - is that it is misleading to call ESO an MMO in the traditional sense. This is a fact. I provided my reasons for this which you have not challenged.

I am also saying that ESO should allow players to advance their characters viably in group content. This is my opinion as to how the game should be changed.

Um, sure, you might laugh and say I am only lvl 37.
I group a lot! I didn't even know about the 10% extra exp you get when you group (not from quest reward)

I get most my exp from grouping actually. I try to do quests, but I get so sidetracked and explore...searching for a skyshard or something.

But still, not a single second of bordome. And I have done a hell of alot more then just getting exp. It really shows that Bioware been included, cause that feature that under every rock can be something, sure is in ESO!

Only had that in Fallout before.

I think the discussion shouldnt be how to make better exp by grouping, but how grouping is more rewarding in alot of ways.

One topic has been up and a SMALL fix been done. Players on different stages on SOME quests cant see eachother. This is in the ESO works.

At first it was a problem with phasing and you couldnt even meet in a city. Anyone noticed that you can meet up anyone in a city? :-p

The mean Zenimax is fixing things without telling us! ***!

Cogo · May 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

This game needs WOW/Rifts LFG tool and SHOULD of had it from the start.

Erhm, first of all, ESO is a new TYPE of MMO. The main goal is not ONLY highest lvl, which is one of maybe 5 goals in WoW, and you get highest lvl in wow by farting for 2 days.

ESO is the opposite, and should be!

ESO grouping tool isnt the best. But I dont really have a big problem finding a group. I ask in Zonechat, my guild chat, and friends if their keen.

Friends btw is a great way to get by grouping for a quest or just grouping and run around. I like hunting skyshards! (no addon). I met several friends that way who also do not use any addon.

Apart from the guild management/Ranks/features/history/see who the hell you sold to in a guild shop, then the guild system is new too and should ABSOLUTLY have nothing to do with WoW. A guild in ESO is what the word means, its a group of people with either simular interest, or a common theme/use. (I highlighted this because its so rare I whine about something....this I do feel should be in at launch)

Trade guild is just one of the many different types of guilds you can join/create. Nothing stoping you from making a guild the way you want it.

A good suggestion when you play ESO is to forget other games, especially wow, because ESO is probebly the biggest opposite to WoW among any MMOs

Also, There seams to be a few people who feel that getting highest lvl, and then raid, is the only goal and thats why you want to level fast?
Ok, this is one of the many goals. But if this is the only thing you have done, I understand if someone is bored.

I LOVE every damn dungeon I go to. Instances are just amazing with the AI. Some mobs are smarter then the group and we wipe lol! Nice! Then you regroup, assess how to counter/beat this. I find that fun.

But, before anyone says it and laughs at me, I am lvl 37, no alts. Play daily pretty much.

I do got a small exuse for my slow leveling. I take care of the guildbank daily, since all members have access and put stuff in. Mostly items and tradeskill stuff.

Since the duping bug, the guildbank simply do not let you group the same items like you can in your own bank, so I spend a good hour per day fixing the bank. I also am the cook for the guild and see it it that we always have a good stock of Blue and purple lvl 35-50 food ready for use.

We also use the bank for all tradeskills. I am a blacksmith, make alot of daggers, put them in bank. Someone else takes them, Deconstruct and put others in bank. Sometimes even here I have to manage bank stuffs, but it works!

I am lvl 37 SK, with 44 blacksmithing

Gez, I got off topic! Sorry!

I find it fun to group and I like to meet new people. Sometimes they turn from a friend into a new guildmember!

Cogo · May 2014

Falmer wrote: »

I guess I just played in a different era. Back in EQ, which was my first MMO (not counting MUDs), leveling was a very long process. All you had was grinding. In the later levels you were lucky to level once a week with extensive playing.

I think what you are failing to realize though is that pre-VR, there is a ton of content. Imagine, if they did add any kind of significant xp for group grinding.
Can you imagine the number of complaints about OUTLEVELING the content should you happen to spend a few hours in a dungeon with a few friends, only to emerge a few levels later and have every single quest you have greyed out?

The developers wanted this to be a story and content driven game, not a grinding game. I certainly admire that decision.

Man! you give me so much memories!

4-6 months to get high to highest lvl. AWESOME. And the respect you got for those who where highest lvl....no other game then EQ even gave me that feeling.

Also, when someone was highest level, at least the first few years, the risk they couldnt "play their class" was about the same chance as you go LFG in WoW these days and find a good group.

It did happen, but most highest lvls in EQ know what the hell they where doing. Of course in different skills, but they know more then the basics of what to do.

I never exp grind in any game, because its boring. But in EQ, we did. Do you remember sitting for hours, even a whole night just in Lower guk, waiting for Sage to pop and HOPEFULLY he droped the hat!

Or the trains in Karnors castle!

Those where the days......

ESO is a new breed/type of MMO, and I am slowly starting to like it even better then EQ. Lets see the raids first though.

Cogo · May 2014

Wooop! EU server patched and up! Gametime!

Shaun98ca2 · May 2014

Cogo wrote: »

blah blah blah

That was a lot to agree and disagree and speak off topic. YES the current LFG tool for the most part works. I also have gotten groups using it.

At the same time it needs improvements. Best comparisons are WOW/Rift's LFG tool.

You que up for the dungeon/s that you want to play in. The tool finds you a group and puts you into the dungeon+group after verifying that you want to still join the group and tells you which role you will be performing.

Its simple and "fast".

Currently the current the tool has you sitting in a "group" with one other person wondering if your ever going to find a Tank/Healer. Luckly all my groups have a healer as that's the role I WANT to preform in a group.

Its a terrible system that we currently have. Functional YES...Good NO.

Cogo · May 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You que up for the dungeon/s that you want to play in. The tool finds you a group and puts you into the dungeon+group after verifying that you want to still join the group and tells you which role you will be performing.

Its simple and "fast".

Currently the current the tool has you sitting in a "group" with one other person wondering if your ever going to find a Tank/Healer. Luckly all my groups have a healer as that's the role I WANT to preform in a group.

Its a terrible system that we currently have. Functional YES...Good NO.

Ah, I see where you coming from. Even before ESO was released, they kept saying ESO is a long term gameplay. But also said something about for casual play.

What ESO is NOT, is simple and fast. Then you dont know what ESO is, or maybe dont care?

In ESO, your game starts at level 1, with you as the main focus. You choose your faith but you live with the effects of your choices and actions.

Take Skyshards for example. Not counting that damn addon that shows you exactly where they are. They made Skyshard into several things. Of course its something every player, no matter their playstyle, wants to find. Some you do get as a reward cause you managed to go down into a dungeon. Some you find by exploring and maybe even read the tips in the journal.

And some you just run into! OR my favorite thing right now is looking for them, even without looking in the journal.....I try to figure out when I explore, hmm....I wonder behind those hills there, if there is a skyshard.

ESO is the exact opposite to Simple and fast. Unless of course you use addons, which are allowed. But in my view, they take away way to much fun, even if I need several skillpoint now!!!!

I wonder...how much have you played ESO? Do you even like it? Your post makes me think you would be more happy in WoW. Or even Wildstar the first few weeks before you are highest level and got everything.