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So, 1.1.2 nerfed talon and impulse, buffed entropy
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vicNBitis✭✭✭Still_Mind wrote: »How's that fundamentally different? The cost is comparable, root is switched out by a different utility.
Why the hate on Talons, specifically? The Synergy? Will you be satisfied if it's removed?
Snare and root are in no way comparable. Replace all the roots in the game with snares and I doubt many would shrug their shoulders and soldier on. It'd be a massive change.
Yes, I would be satisfied if it was removed. As is, It never should have been in the game in the first place.0 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭
We have an agreement, then. Screw Impale, and everyone lives happily ever after.Still_Mind wrote: »How's that fundamentally different? The cost is comparable, root is switched out by a different utility.
Why the hate on Talons, specifically? The Synergy? Will you be satisfied if it's removed?
Snare and root are in no way comparable. Replace all the roots in the game with snares and I doubt many would shrug their shoulders and soldier on. It'd be a massive change.
Yes, I would be satisfied if it was removed. As is, It never should have been in the game in the first place.
Ash has an accuracy debuff, in addition to snare. For PvE's sake, Volcanic rune stun is just as favourable as root - more flexible in terms of aiming, too. Stun-immune enemies are also root-immune, and Rune is very accessible in light armour and Guild talents.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
then what about pve? Screw it right who cares as long as i can freely roam around cyrodil popping in and out of stealth ganking anyone i want im happy?. changing stuff to strictly accomodate PVP is silly . just give it a diminishing return fix armor passives so light armor is not the only logical set up and giving DK's unlimited resources. 90 % of new tanks doing VR dungeons would not survive with out roots nor would the group. once you have skills and knowledge they are not so crucial. but still use full and needed in certain situationsStill_Mind wrote: »How's that fundamentally different? The cost is comparable, root is switched out by a different utility.
Why the hate on Talons, specifically? The Synergy? Will you be satisfied if it's removed?
Snare and root are in no way comparable. Replace all the roots in the game with snares and I doubt many would shrug their shoulders and soldier on. It'd be a massive change.
Yes, I would be satisfied if it was removed. As is, It never should have been in the game in the first place.
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vicNBitis✭✭✭Still_Mind wrote: »We have an agreement, then. Screw Impale, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Ash has an accuracy debuff, in addition to snare. For PvE's sake, Volcanic rune stun is just as favourable as root - more flexible in terms of aiming, too. Stun-immune enemies are also root-immune, and Rune is very accessible in light armour and Guild talents.
Not sure what Impale has to do with anything but I prefer Killer's Blade.
I'm inclined to believe an accuracy debuff is about as helpful as, oh say, Evasion or Blur.
I'm sure DKs will be just peachy with Rune if Talons is ever "fixed" to my liking.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Still_Mind wrote: »
We have an agreement, then. Screw Impale, and everyone lives happily ever after.Still_Mind wrote: »How's that fundamentally different? The cost is comparable, root is switched out by a different utility.
Why the hate on Talons, specifically? The Synergy? Will you be satisfied if it's removed?
Snare and root are in no way comparable. Replace all the roots in the game with snares and I doubt many would shrug their shoulders and soldier on. It'd be a massive change.
Yes, I would be satisfied if it was removed. As is, It never should have been in the game in the first place.
Ash has an accuracy debuff, in addition to snare. For PvE's sake, Volcanic rune stun is just as favourable as root - more flexible in terms of aiming, too. Stun-immune enemies are also root-immune, and Rune is very accessible in light armour and Guild talents.
LOL rune is way way more OP then Talons in pve . you can essintally juggle pulls indefinately if two group members are using them. with mage guild passives even a heavy wearer has near unlimited use of it in pulls if he uses it as his or sole CC for VR dungeons.0 -
Napkins✭Still_Mind wrote: »
There's no PvP class skills subforum. Do expect PvP references to be present here.Still_Mind wrote: »I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.
And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.
DKs are a choke point class. Talons is a role-defining skill, like it or not. ZOE may tweak the numbers, but DKs will retain mechanics that are necessary for their unique role. After all, it's not ZOE's fault that they're so good against mindless zergs, and player zergs can be pretty mindless, even on a MMO monster AI scale.
This is a PvE sub-forum. If you want to spew your PvP rationalizations there's a place for that.
And I never said Talons was the strongest mechanic DKs have to offer. It's just the most obscenely obvious non-ultimate OP skill they have. The others can be nerfed. Talons needs to be changed fundamentally.
Ok, so let's imagine if DKs don't have Talons. What happens? Nothing terrible. They start using Cinder Storm as an alternative. This removes the AoE root, but acts as an AoE snare+accuracy debuff. Should we nerf\fundamentally change this, as well?
The radius on cinder storm is laughable. You can walk out of the snare in 2 seconds. And that 20 dmg a second really replaces talon's "medicore" dmg. Oh wait it doesn't at all. CS isn't even a CC at all.
I guess I will just expect my class to be balanced in pvp, while ruining it pve. Man this brings me back to my WoW days. Thankfully Wildstar is right around the corner.Edited by Napkins on 22 May 2014 21:240 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »then what about pve? Screw it right who cares as long as i can freely roam around cyrodil popping in and out of stealth ganking anyone i want im happy?. changing stuff to strictly accomodate PVP is silly . just give it a diminishing return fix armor passives so light armor is not the only logical set up and giving DK's unlimited resources. 90 % of new tanks doing VR dungeons would not survive with out roots nor would the group. once you have skills and knowledge they are not so crucial. but still use full and needed in certain situations
What are you talking about? Everything I post is PvE-related. I couldn't care less about PvP. That ship sailed with the vampire nonsense. I'll check that out again next year maybe.
DK tanks can slum it like the NB tanks and use Rune. It sucks having to think about which skill to remove from your bar but DKs are silly with choices. Hell, you could probably pick your skills at random and have a viable build. Things are changing. Welcome to ESO. Wish you could have joined us at launch.1 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭Still_Mind wrote: »We have an agreement, then. Screw Impale, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Ash has an accuracy debuff, in addition to snare. For PvE's sake, Volcanic rune stun is just as favourable as root - more flexible in terms of aiming, too. Stun-immune enemies are also root-immune, and Rune is very accessible in light armour and Guild talents.
Not sure what Impale has to do with anything but I prefer Killer's Blade.
I'm inclined to believe an accuracy debuff is about as helpful as, oh say, Evasion or Blur.
I'm sure DKs will be just peachy with Rune if Talons is ever "fixed" to my liking.
Not sure why you want to change an ability you have no idea about. Impale is the name of the Synergy for Talons. The have made sure it is within the 6 target cap and reduced its radius, at this point I think you are either trolling or just trying to nerf the ability into the ground, because you don't want anything to root you, ever.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »Not sure why you want to change an ability you have no idea about. Impale is the name of the Synergy for Talons. The have made sure it is within the 6 target cap and reduced its radius, at this point I think you are either trolling or just trying to nerf the ability into the ground, because you don't want anything to root you, ever.
Ahh, sorry. I'm an NB at heart and when I see "Impale" I think Assassin's Blade morph(which was pretty evident in my initial post).
The cap and reduced radius are pretty insignificant. To AOE grinding anyways. I care less about PvP than you seem to care about balance so it's not personal.0 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »Not sure why you want to change an ability you have no idea about. Impale is the name of the Synergy for Talons. The have made sure it is within the 6 target cap and reduced its radius, at this point I think you are either trolling or just trying to nerf the ability into the ground, because you don't want anything to root you, ever.
Ahh, sorry. I'm an NB at heart and when I see "Impale" I think Assassin's Blade morph(which was pretty evident in my initial post).
The cap and reduced radius are pretty insignificant. To AOE grinding anyways. I care less about PvP than you seem to care about balance so it's not personal.
6 target cap effects both PvP and PvE, but you seem to not understand that. Before people were talking about DKs using talons to grind 8-10 mobs at one time with a 6 target cap they would only be able to do 6 at once. So, you are acting more clueless than you realize. The radius nerf matters for pve as well, because it give the DK less room for error when casting, because mobs will have to be closer together and to the Dk themselves. In fact it really just seems like I said before, you just want to nerf this skill into the ground for some reason.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »6 target cap effects both PvP and PvE, but you seem to not understand that. Before people were talking about DKs using talons to grind 8-10 mobs at one time with a 6 target cap they would only be able to do 6 at once. So, you are acting more clueless than you realize. The radius nerf matters for pve as well, because it give the DK less room for error when casting, because mobs will have to be closer together and to the Dk themselves. In fact it really just seems like I said before, you just want to nerf this skill into the ground for some reason.
Yes, in an insignificant way. Post-cap I could still pull 3-4 packs. Want to know what change it required? Razor Armor**. If for some reason things got dicey pop SoM which was always charged and ready to go. No, the hardest thing about AOE grinding with a DK is finding 3-4 packs close enough to pull them all at once. Everything else is cake.
The radius nerf I haven't tested yet but really I can't see it making too big of a change. You might have to pay 1/10th the attention to positioning that an NB does and once you pop Talons take a step back but come on. The range is at cast. Once that's done you can still get out of melee range.
**ETA: And Immovable. I added that as well more for convenience. See? I added two skills to my bar. Prior to the changes 3 keys. That's all AOE grinding required. Pathetic how OP DKs were.Edited by vicNBitis on 23 May 2014 01:220 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »6 target cap effects both PvP and PvE, but you seem to not understand that. Before people were talking about DKs using talons to grind 8-10 mobs at one time with a 6 target cap they would only be able to do 6 at once. So, you are acting more clueless than you realize. The radius nerf matters for pve as well, because it give the DK less room for error when casting, because mobs will have to be closer together and to the Dk themselves. In fact it really just seems like I said before, you just want to nerf this skill into the ground for some reason.
Yes, in an insignificant way. Post-cap I could still pull 3-4 packs. Want to know what change it required? Razor Armor**. If for some reason things got dicey pop SoM which was always charged and ready to go. No, the hardest thing about AOE grinding with a DK is finding 3-4 packs close enough to pull them all at once. Everything else is cake.
The radius nerf I haven't tested yet but really I can't see it making too big of a change. You might have to pay 1/10th the attention to positioning that an NB does and once you pop Talons take a step back but come on. The range is at cast. Once that's done you can still get out of melee range.
**ETA: And Immovable. I added that as well more for convenience. See? I added two skills to my bar. Prior to the changes 3 keys. That's all AOE grinding required. Pathetic how OP DKs were.
Some how I don't believe you have any experience with DKs at veteran ranks. I believe you are basing your opinions off of non veteran pve combat and that is a mistake.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »then what about pve? Screw it right who cares as long as i can freely roam around cyrodil popping in and out of stealth ganking anyone i want im happy?. changing stuff to strictly accomodate PVP is silly . just give it a diminishing return fix armor passives so light armor is not the only logical set up and giving DK's unlimited resources. 90 % of new tanks doing VR dungeons would not survive with out roots nor would the group. once you have skills and knowledge they are not so crucial. but still use full and needed in certain situations
What are you talking about? Everything I post is PvE-related. I couldn't care less about PvP. That ship sailed with the vampire nonsense. I'll check that out again next year maybe.
DK tanks can slum it like the NB tanks and use Rune. It sucks having to think about which skill to remove from your bar but DKs are silly with choices. Hell, you could probably pick your skills at random and have a viable build. Things are changing. Welcome to ESO. Wish you could have joined us at launch.
LOL rune is way better then Talons for tanking . you obviously dont tank a lot. so you have four NB and a DK all at V10?
Edited by Wifeaggro13 on 23 May 2014 02:000 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
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Whats more concerning is he has four different nightblades and is complaining he cant tank as well as a DK. Seriously? i cant one shot from stealth nor can i heal a VR dungeon with any type of reliability. nor can i summon pets and shoot *** with lightningDraconiuos wrote: »Draconiuos wrote: »6 target cap effects both PvP and PvE, but you seem to not understand that. Before people were talking about DKs using talons to grind 8-10 mobs at one time with a 6 target cap they would only be able to do 6 at once. So, you are acting more clueless than you realize. The radius nerf matters for pve as well, because it give the DK less room for error when casting, because mobs will have to be closer together and to the Dk themselves. In fact it really just seems like I said before, you just want to nerf this skill into the ground for some reason.
Yes, in an insignificant way. Post-cap I could still pull 3-4 packs. Want to know what change it required? Razor Armor**. If for some reason things got dicey pop SoM which was always charged and ready to go. No, the hardest thing about AOE grinding with a DK is finding 3-4 packs close enough to pull them all at once. Everything else is cake.
The radius nerf I haven't tested yet but really I can't see it making too big of a change. You might have to pay 1/10th the attention to positioning that an NB does and once you pop Talons take a step back but come on. The range is at cast. Once that's done you can still get out of melee range.
**ETA: And Immovable. I added that as well more for convenience. See? I added two skills to my bar. Prior to the changes 3 keys. That's all AOE grinding required. Pathetic how OP DKs were.
Some how I don't believe you have any experience with DKs at veteran ranks. I believe you are basing your opinions off of non veteran pve combat and that is a mistake.
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vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »Some how I don't believe you have any experience with DKs at veteran ranks. I believe you are basing your opinions off of non veteran pve combat and that is a mistake.
Well, just a moment before pulling this out of somewhere you thought I was a whining PVPer. It's fine to be wrong.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »LOL rune is way better then Talons for tanking . you obviously dont tank a lot. so you have four NB and a DK all at V10?
Ask me again when I say anything specifically about tanking.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Whats more concerning is he has four different nightblades and is complaining he cant tank as well as a DK. Seriously? i cant one shot from stealth nor can i heal a VR dungeon with any type of reliability. nor can i summon pets and shoot *** with lightning
Quote me where I talk about tanking. Where do I use the word 'tanking'? I don't. And I'm quite happy with my NBs. Although one has been relegated to a mule but I have plans for it.0 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »Some how I don't believe you have any experience with DKs at veteran ranks. I believe you are basing your opinions off of non veteran pve combat and that is a mistake.
Well, just a moment before pulling this out of somewhere you thought I was a whining PVPer. It's fine to be wrong.
No, I never said you were a whining pvper, in fact I read the entire thread and saw your post about you caring about pve most. You were the one that thought I was posting just about the nerfs effects on pvp. So, I had to point out how it effected pve.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »No, I never said you were a whining pvper, in fact I read the entire thread and saw your post about you caring about pve most. You were the one that thought I was posting just about the nerfs effects on pvp. So, I had to point out how it effected pve.
Really? Your first contribution to this thread was this one:Draconiuos wrote: »Not sure why you want to change an ability you have no idea about. Impale is the name of the Synergy for Talons. The have made sure it is within the 6 target cap and reduced its radius, at this point I think you are either trolling or just trying to nerf the ability into the ground, because you don't want anything to root you, ever.
Do you post under a different nick? Anyways, I don't care who you are or what you think. Just what you post and so far it's not much.0 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »No, I never said you were a whining pvper, in fact I read the entire thread and saw your post about you caring about pve most. You were the one that thought I was posting just about the nerfs effects on pvp. So, I had to point out how it effected pve.
Really? Your first contribution to this thread was this one:Draconiuos wrote: »Not sure why you want to change an ability you have no idea about. Impale is the name of the Synergy for Talons. The have made sure it is within the 6 target cap and reduced its radius, at this point I think you are either trolling or just trying to nerf the ability into the ground, because you don't want anything to root you, ever.
Do you post under a different nick? Anyways, I don't care who you are or what you think. Just what you post and so far it's not much.
Yes, it was a observation on one of the few reason someone would have such hatred for one skill in general. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against the skill.0 -
vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »Yes, it was a observation on one of the few reason someone would have such hatred for one skill in general. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against the skill.
That's cool. Like I said...nothing wrong with being wrong. Happens to us all.
I grew to hate(well, not hate...I don't hate anything) it through repeated use. It's obscenely OP and I can't understand how anyone at Zenimax could have thought it fine. Just look at it. It...Does...Everything. It...Still...Does...Everything. Maybe it's not working as they intended and the target cap & radius nerf is a step in that direction but how can they be soooo freaking wrong?0 -
Draconiuos✭✭✭
So, I was right about you hating the skill just wrong on the reason. I have to be honest has a two-hand weapon DK it just doesn't seem that OP, maybe because the root doesn't do as much for me. In fact I took the debuff morph for the fact that I still had to get in close with the mobs. Since a solo 90% of the time the synergy does nothing for me. To be honest if it was an ultimate I wouldn't use it, because it just doesn't do all that much for me. It is some AOE dmg and a means to reduce dmg. The fact I have gone away from my DK class spec and went in to a two-hand skill line spec says a lot to me. I stacked stamina for Werewolf and now my Weapon skills are so much better than class skills.Draconiuos wrote: »Yes, it was a observation on one of the few reason someone would have such hatred for one skill in general. You seem to have some sort of vendetta against the skill.
That's cool. Like I said...nothing wrong with being wrong. Happens to us all.
I grew to hate(well, not hate...I don't hate anything) it through repeated use. It's obscenely OP and I can't understand how anyone at Zenimax could have thought it fine. Just look at it. It...Does...Everything. It...Still...Does...Everything. Maybe it's not working as they intended and the target cap & radius nerf is a step in that direction but how can they be soooo freaking wrong?
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vicNBitis✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »So, I was right about you hating the skill just wrong on the reason. I have to be honest has a two-hand weapon DK it just doesn't seem that OP, maybe because the root doesn't do as much for me. In fact I took the debuff morph for the fact that I still had to get in close with the mobs. Since a solo 90% of the time the synergy does nothing for me. To be honest if it was an ultimate I wouldn't use it, because it just doesn't do all that much for me. It is some AOE dmg and a means to reduce dmg. The fact I have gone away from my DK class spec and went in to a two-hand skill line spec says a lot to me. I stacked stamina for Werewolf and now my Weapon skills are so much better than class skills.
I started out with heavy armor, shield bashing like nobody's business. I used Talons(Chains mostly though tbh because they're cool) with that build for a few days before I realized I could hit things outside melee range. Then it was destro staff all the way. Easy mode. You can pretty much get Talons at level 6 or so. Roll up on a pack of 3-4. Heavy attack with staff as you walk in, pop Talons. The first mob would be near death instantly. You could heavy attack them down one by one and never get touched. Once you get Whip it's the same thing on bosses...heavy attack, talons, heavy attack, whip, rinse, repeat. Without Talons no way I'm doing any of that at level 6. They can nerf Talons however they want but without fundamentally changing the skill I guarantee anyone can(and will) do that at level 6. Maybe with the Impulse nerf they won't be farming skeletons for multiple levels an hour in Hectahame Grotto like so many did but it's still easy street.
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Draconiuos✭✭✭Draconiuos wrote: »So, I was right about you hating the skill just wrong on the reason. I have to be honest has a two-hand weapon DK it just doesn't seem that OP, maybe because the root doesn't do as much for me. In fact I took the debuff morph for the fact that I still had to get in close with the mobs. Since a solo 90% of the time the synergy does nothing for me. To be honest if it was an ultimate I wouldn't use it, because it just doesn't do all that much for me. It is some AOE dmg and a means to reduce dmg. The fact I have gone away from my DK class spec and went in to a two-hand skill line spec says a lot to me. I stacked stamina for Werewolf and now my Weapon skills are so much better than class skills.
I started out with heavy armor, shield bashing like nobody's business. I used Talons(Chains mostly though tbh because they're cool) with that build for a few days before I realized I could hit things outside melee range. Then it was destro staff all the way. Easy mode. You can pretty much get Talons at level 6 or so. Roll up on a pack of 3-4. Heavy attack with staff as you walk in, pop Talons. The first mob would be near death instantly. You could heavy attack them down one by one and never get touched. Once you get Whip it's the same thing on bosses...heavy attack, talons, heavy attack, whip, rinse, repeat. Without Talons no way I'm doing any of that at level 6. They can nerf Talons however they want but without fundamentally changing the skill I guarantee anyone can(and will) do that at level 6. Maybe with the Impulse nerf they won't be farming skeletons for multiple levels an hour in Hectahame Grotto like so many did but it's still easy street.
Yes, but that only really works until you hit Veteran levels. Trust me talons isn't that great in VR content. I will admit that until VR content as a DK I pretty much breezed through content. I am having more success with weapon skill line than DK skills in VR content, but like I said that is probably because I stacked stamina for WW. The only skill for DK I still use is Dragon's Blood so I have a heal without the need for a staff.0 -
Axer✭✭✭✭Result at the end of the day:
Impulse is still by far the best aoe dps in the game, and even very strong single target. Especially on a dragon knight.
Entropy is stilll only useful for soloing.
Talons is still gonna utterly destroy you in pvp.
No real changes. Too minor to matter.
What did matter:
DKs got massively buffed (increased ultimate gain and more)
Templars got massively stealth nerfed (Only dps skill - biting jabs, destroyed)
NB got a bit of a nerf.
Sorc about the same.Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)0 -
Still_Mind✭✭✭
Talons don't destroy you in PvP. Other stuff does, while Talons hold you, and there's a subtle difference here.Result at the end of the day:
Impulse is still by far the best aoe dps in the game, and even very strong single target. Especially on a dragon knight.
Entropy is stilll only useful for soloing.
Talons is still gonna utterly destroy you in pvp.
No real changes. Too minor to matter.
What did matter:
DKs got massively buffed (increased ultimate gain and more)
Templars got massively stealth nerfed (Only dps skill - biting jabs, destroyed)
NB got a bit of a nerf.
Sorc about the same.
ZOE said that they're reverting the change to Jabs.
NBs got small fixes, and they're getting big fixes in the next major patch.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"0 -
alexj4596b14_ESO✭✭✭Result at the end of the day:
Impulse is still by far the best aoe dps in the game, and even very strong single target. Especially on a dragon knight.
Entropy is stilll only useful for soloing.
Talons is still gonna utterly destroy you in pvp.
No real changes. Too minor to matter.
What did matter:
DKs got massively buffed (increased ultimate gain and more)
Templars got massively stealth nerfed (Only dps skill - biting jabs, destroyed)
NB got a bit of a nerf.
Sorc about the same.
Also entropy works in doungons just fine if I have ten adds and apply it too ten add plus heals now iv taken pressure off the healer just saying, also I got a 356 point heal yesterday from it too0