The Bow Line

rfpalmerb16_ESO · May 2014

Is it just me or is the bow skill tree kinda... well ... meh.

Poison arrow is lackluster in damage, specially against any enemy that has some amount of healing and it's morphs (more damage to the almost dead and caster interrupt) are mostly useless in PVP and just OK in PVE

Volley suffers from so many targeting issues (is there a bump in the ground? Cant put it there) Scorched earth is a bit nicer but arrow barrage is not useful considering there is a cap on the number of enemies you can hit (so why have a bigger aoe area).

Scatter Shot is the one ability that PvEers cant do without...but its very short range usually means you get lag-hit by whatever you are knocking back. The morphs to knocking you back (now you are out of range to use scatter shot again) and snare -- doesn't work reliably in PvP again just seem like after-thoughts to the ability.

Arrow Spray is not bad, but the short range, high stamina cost really limit its use -- and while it does damage it is used for CC. The Morphs, damage over time and immobilize (the only morph people usually take) don't make up for the high stamina cost.

Snipe is a nice, long-range ability but its hugely slow draw time makes it a challenge to use. The oddest thing is that it has a MINIMUM range.... Truth about snipe is that you get 1 hit in before your enemy is in the 28m range when they can start attacking you and, 1 second later the 2nd snipe that you drew is lost because they are below the minimum range ... yep you lost an attack because your enemy ran at you -- and you never get that huge draw-time DPS loss back. Now the morphs, one adding a 5 meters and a bit more damage from bow attacks and one adding a small amount of poison damage and reducing healing for 10 seconds don't help the drawbacks of the draw time and minimum range. 5 meters is meaningless and there is so much healing in the game that a 50% reduction for 10 seconds is only painful to PvP non-grouped lowbies.

Passives -- well for the most part they seem to work only part of the time! But I guess that is part-and-parcel to most of the other passives in the game at this point. Otherwise they seem fine except for.... Hasty Retreat With the stamina drain of the bow line so high, who has stamina left over to do a role? 15% more speed for 2 seconds...that will get me ... well ... nowhere but fast.

I mean, a bow doesn't seem to fit in the DPS, Tank or Healer roles very well -- all other weapons help perform those roles better -- and considerably so!

KhajiitiLizard · May 2014

I'm just upset at the lack of range the bow has. In Skyrim you could snipe enemies. It had actual projectiles and actually had to aim. ESO makes attacking with a bow from a keep's walls in pvp pretty much impossible because your attacks won't hit, even if you can see the enemy's health.

Ser Lobo · May 2014

My main is a nightblade archer at VR3. When I say he uses a bow, it's in both slots kind of way. I've maxed the base and morphs on all archer abilities.

However, I'd have to agree with the fact that there are issues with the archer line. I rely on Venom Arrow and Draining Shot as my only two archer abilities, on BOTH bars. And I would switch out Venom Arrow, but it's my go-to stam waster on easy fights.

Volley was an early favorite when I was leveling, but as time has progressed, it's usage has grown smaller. As a prep-cast ability in the line of traps and whatnot, it's not bad. But the overall punch of the ability is lacking, meaning it usually falls off the bar for more useful prep abilities, like Fire Rune.

I don't like hitting targets I'm not aimed at, and in many dungeons Arrow Spray does just that. As far as the immobolize goes, it sounds great, but as the op posted, the stamina cost is so extreme it makes it hard to justify.

Snipe ... ahh, this is wasted potential. The first shot opener is nice. Love the extended range. Needs a 'secondary' trait that allows you to use it in close range quickly, giving it a place on your bar. If target is beyond so many meters, long draw snipe shot for extra damage. If target is close, make it a 'snap shot' that does little damage and uses little stamina, but has a snare or whatnot. Anything for more utility.

All that said: it would also be nice to see an armor break somewhere in our lineup.

wyrdob16_ESO · May 2014

I have two veteran chars (v1 and v8), both used bow as one of their leveling weapons. That being said, bow feels decidedly weaker the higher you get. At low levels you can one-shot mobs out of stealth, at high levels pure bow damage feels very insufficient.

I only use poison arrow and scatter shot anyhow, the other bow skills seem too lacking (snipe) / too clunky to use (aoe skills).

Aphilas · May 2014

Paper value is lacking. However that paper value doesn't look as bad when you take into consideration gear sets. Combination of Arms of the Ancestors, Morag Tong, Night Mother's Gaze sets will up bow DPS significantly.

rawne1980b16_ESO · May 2014

Snipe needs it's draw time reducing by, at the very least, half.

3 seconds is far too long.

And remove minimum range. It's a practically useless talent.

I switched my NB from bow to dual wield. Far better damage output. I've been saying that bows need to be looked at since beta though, they just feel a bit underwhelming.

rusila22 · May 2014

Archer (bow line) needs an update about :
-The animation of the arrow
-Poison arrow the morphed one to knockback a caster is useless Why did i say that because you have to know all Big Boss are immune to snare mc and knock back. In openworld mage are weak no need of using it !

Ser Lobo · May 2014

rusila22 wrote: »

Archer (bow line) needs an update about :
-The animation of the arrow
-Poison arrow the morphed one to knockback a caster is useless Why did i say that because you have to know all Big Boss are immune to snare mc and knock back. In openworld mage are weak no need of using it !

Doesn't knockback. It interrupts. Works very well on any caster with a channel time, particularly healers.

Ser Lobo · May 2014

wyrdob16_ESO wrote: »

I have two veteran chars (v1 and v8), both used bow as one of their leveling weapons. That being said, bow feels decidedly weaker the higher you get. At low levels you can one-shot mobs out of stealth, at high levels pure bow damage feels very insufficient.

I only use poison arrow and scatter shot anyhow, the other bow skills seem too lacking (snipe) / too clunky to use (aoe skills).

I feel this. Early on, my bow wasn't a bad thing at all. By the 40's, it got progressively harder to use. My skill had to go up so much to compensate.

I can understand if their intention is the keep bows and destruction staff weaker, since we can use at range. But we don't come anywhere near the damage output of destro staves. I'd hazard to guess that if you don't take in two-handed weapon targeting issues, we're doing the lowest damage overall.

Switch out that hasty retreat for something worthwhile, like a 5%/10% chance when attacking from crouch or stealth to instant kill (akin to what Silver Bolts does against Daedra/Undead/Werewolves). Opening shot instant kill? Would be worth it.

reften · May 2014

I use poison arrow and scattershot(knockback) as my primary attacks on my Veteran nightblade. I have tried all 5 attacks...and must say the other three are terrible. A bow's regular heavy attack is nearly identical to snipe, and it still works if the enemy gets in close range. That one baffles me.

But I love my bow. Love standing well behind the action and just firing off unlimited poison arrows, and any attention I get I can either knockback or stealth...or just finish with stealth/veiled strike combo.

The "knock you back" is elite IMO too...because, when it matters most (boss fights) it works great for getting you away from AoE attacks, or just to separate you from the mob. Very happy with my choice.

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

Poison arrow and magnum shot(when it actually works) are the only ones really worth a damn and they're still pretty weak.

I saw snipe and thought "Awesome, a charged aim shot that can whoop some ass from stealth" oh hell no, I have had heavy attacks do more damage than snipe does x.x The aoe is terrible on the other two skills.

rfpalmerb16_ESO · May 2014

I would like to see Hasty Retreat replaced with something called Heavy Pull that increases your range by 10/20/30 %

I would like Snipe to either:
- have no minimum range
-- OR --
- always crit. with a chance to cause a bleed effect.

I would like Arrow Spray to use 1/2 the stamina it currently does.
I would like Volley to have the targeting fixed and 25% more damage per tick
I would like Poison Arrow to slow an enemy and have the morphs split to one causing a stamina drain DOT and the other causing a magic drain DOT as well as the standard health DOT..

Krovax · May 2014

I went Bowplar from 1 to 50, but with increasing levels fell back to just using one or two bowskills for single target bosses, especially the knockback one, and relying on cone AoE from my Templar abilities for groups. In VR I got decimated so horribly that I learned to use sword and shield and only then I continued. I went from almost certain death to comfortably managing even the odd public group dungeon pull. I liked the bow a lot (I shoot traditional bows IRL), but as almost 90% of all encounters are packs now, bow poorly underperforms vs any other weapon sadly.

PrinceBoru · May 2014

I'm a level 22 Bosmer using a bow. I've got it leveled to 34 so far. Should I switch to level up another weapon in anticipation of Veteran play? Will the time I put in developing bow skills be a waste at VR level?

Ser Lobo · May 2014

ROMMELBOT wrote: »

I'm a level 22 Bosmer using a bow. I've got it leveled to 34 so far. Should I switch to level up another weapon in anticipation of Veteran play? Will the time I put in developing bow skills be a waste at VR level?

My current go-to Nightblade build has Poison Arrow, Siphon, Scatter Shot, Crippling Strikes and Silver Bolts, with the Shatter Soul.

It's all ranged, all the time. Poison arrow for weak mobs or interrupting casters,as the poison tick is next to useless. Siphon as my magicka drain and good damage dealer. Draining Shot to knock back targets and snare those capable of being snared (unlike many snares, the other part of the attacks still work against bosses, just not the snare). Agony is priceless for handling larger groups of mobs (you can pin that healer or elite mob down while you wipe through the easier mobs). Silver Bolts is an amazing ability that I use against any dead, undead, werewolf or daedra, and sometimes against bosses for a little extra punch. Shatter Soul is simply amazing for it's ranged capabilities and fun face melt times.

This is working great for me. The 40's were difficult, but I eventually found my stride (I switched from health to stamina potions on my quick slot) and am now doing fine.

Biggest issues: opening shots are weak compared to other stealth attacks, so don't expect quick fights; no AOE, so gotta pull your targets carefully; no armor break, so fights take longer than other classes; once you die, you could easily get passives bugged which makes dying again so much easier.

Still very capable. But I'm always envious when I see sorcerers and dragon knights strolling through 5-10 mobs blasting AOE. No skill, no aiming, no positioning.

Archers are definitely skill intensive to do well, and the payout is less in my opinion than taking the easy route.

reften · May 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

ROMMELBOT wrote: »

I'm a level 22 Bosmer using a bow. I've got it leveled to 34 so far. Should I switch to level up another weapon in anticipation of Veteran play? Will the time I put in developing bow skills be a waste at VR level?

Still very capable. But I'm always envious when I see sorcerers and dragon knights strolling through 5-10 mobs blasting AOE. No skill, no aiming, no positioning.

lol, yeah I laugh at this too. I see a group of 5 and am like "no way". A group of three, I have to be strategic. "Sneak close, Kill the healer quick, cc the other two, work from there"

Others I see just run in the middle, and wipe everything out in a few seconds.

So strange. But i'm having a blast playing a bow/NB, so don't care that much.

frwinters_ESO · May 2014

Venom Arrow helps in PvP to distrupt spell casting thats about it. Snipe was a huge let down. As a NB bow user, I get more damage when i do a heavy sneak attack shot then I do with snipe so I never use it anymore.

Ser Lobo · May 2014

oren74 wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

ROMMELBOT wrote: »

I'm a level 22 Bosmer using a bow. I've got it leveled to 34 so far. Should I switch to level up another weapon in anticipation of Veteran play? Will the time I put in developing bow skills be a waste at VR level?

Still very capable. But I'm always envious when I see sorcerers and dragon knights strolling through 5-10 mobs blasting AOE. No skill, no aiming, no positioning.

lol, yeah I laugh at this too. I see a group of 5 and am like "no way". A group of three, I have to be strategic. "Sneak close, Kill the healer quick, cc the other two, work from there"

Others I see just run in the middle, and wipe everything out in a few seconds.

So strange. But i'm having a blast playing a bow/NB, so don't care that much.

I hate implying that players don't have any skill. But I honestly see no real skill behind popping AOE in a crowd.

What I would LOVE to see, is if the balance of power existed at this: each class should have the ability to kill at the same speed. So if that AOE user can kill three targets in 6 seconds, any single-target user should be able to do the same, with the same amount of work/focus. If the AOE user only has to push one button ... well, it should be equal.

hamon · May 2014

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

Venom Arrow helps in PvP to distrupt spell casting thats about it. Snipe was a huge let down. As a NB bow user, I get more damage when i do a heavy sneak attack shot then I do with snipe so I never use it anymore.

yes i couldnt wait for snipe. aaanddd it was such a let down i was dusgusted by how little it seemed to do. a basic crouched heavy attack was a better opener. so like everyone else its just poison arrow and scatter shot the rest dont even get skill points wasted on them...

and by vet mode it was bye bye bow al togehter except that very rare occasion when its a solo elite that can be knocked back then i get it out the bag.... such a waste of a really good play style..

hamon · May 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

ROMMELBOT wrote: »

I'm a level 22 Bosmer using a bow. I've got it leveled to 34 so far. Should I switch to level up another weapon in anticipation of Veteran play? Will the time I put in developing bow skills be a waste at VR level?

Still very capable. But I'm always envious when I see sorcerers and dragon knights strolling through 5-10 mobs blasting AOE. No skill, no aiming, no positioning.

lol, yeah I laugh at this too. I see a group of 5 and am like "no way". A group of three, I have to be strategic. "Sneak close, Kill the healer quick, cc the other two, work from there"

Others I see just run in the middle, and wipe everything out in a few seconds.

So strange. But i'm having a blast playing a bow/NB, so don't care that much.

I hate implying that players don't have any skill. But I honestly see no real skill behind popping AOE in a crowd.

What I would LOVE to see, is if the balance of power existed at this: each class should have the ability to kill at the same speed. So if that AOE user can kill three targets in 6 seconds, any single-target user should be able to do the same, with the same amount of work/focus. If the AOE user only has to push one button ... well, it should be equal.

yes and the irony is the forum rambo's who say everythings already easy enough when somebody says its too tough in vet mode are largely those very same folk who just roll into groups of 5 and press a couple of buttons loot and move on.. #dk #sorc

Erlindur · May 2014

oren74 wrote: »

lol, yeah I laugh at this too. I see a group of 5 and am like "no way". A group of three, I have to be strategic. "Sneak close, Kill the healer quick, cc the other two, work from there"

I finally found a use for the shade in the shadow line with those groups. Stay at range, send the shade, (btw you stay in stealth when summoning it). The mob group attacks the shade (usually) and you can pick them one by one. Still takes lots of time and you must think before you act but the shade gives you some valuable time and space.

LIQUID741 · May 2014

I was the typical bow/DW NB...like so many others. That is until I found the Onehand Shield line! That coupled with DW, ill never go bow again..least until they up the dmg. Onehand for groups with AOE, DW for singles...crazy easier than Bow was.

snigernissen · May 2014

Having played a NB since beta i can only confirm that as soon as you get near the 40's then bow is utterly useless, and even using every CC there is, i can handle packs of 5 ( seen some people here have issues with that ) without using knockback, but only if my passives dont fail me and if my cloak works as intended.
If my cloak works then i can pretty much aoe them down pretty fast with the help of stam pots and stam food but if there is 1 elite mob alone i have to skip it since none of the utilitys usualy works on those, so for open area elite boss fights i have to wait for back up... and thats at elite bossfights 10 or more lvls lower than me...
For boss fights the same lvl well thats pretty much self explanatory, ofc i have to wait for more people to... *in runs the sorc or dk who is 3-5 lvls lower than the elite boss and solo kills it*
*sigh*

The bow line needs to be look at and fixed asap !

And im not going to write about snipe or all the rest of the things people here have allready said in the rest of the posts...