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Are you fed up of the constant nerfs & nerf threads for PvP balance?
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reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Noplaysforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
The only toxicity I see is coming from the PvE'rs trying to, yet again, claim they are somehow victims of the PvP players. Multiple people in this thread have even suggested removing PvP from the game entirely. It doesn't get any more toxic than that.
Edited by reazea on 5 September 2026 22:143 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »ZOS needs their own team of experts to test new skills and gear before they go live. Relying on player input after the fact to balance your game through nerfs is a recipe for disaster for many reasons.
That would require more staff to be hired/delegated to a testing task.
They did just had a wave of layoffs, and IIRC it's still not really over but I get mixed signals.
My former coworker always joked you can spend a work week "licking walls" looking for a crack in the world's boundaries, but a player will still find a hole in it and clip through.
So I imagine that even if ZOS went that direction, it still wouldn't be enough because its a team of few people vs whole playerbase's creativity.
@Luneca pointed out to me the matter of how many people actually want a nerf or buff, and that's a great point.
If the vibe is that ZOS does not listen, or however they collect the data on what should be nerfed/buffed is not satisfying - then maybe using the feedback system to submit nerf/buff requests could be a more streamlined solution.
That way we'd see if, for example, Negate Magic really is a problematic skill or is it just a selected few that find it problematic.
The request/suggestion to focus on Class Reworks already has better turnover for voting in the Feedbacks than that one poll on the forum in General suggestions (+2k vs ~150 people had voted), so by that alone it looks like its working.
Still doesn't solve the issue of such nerfs or buffs affecting PvE, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
These aren't "cracks" though. These are glaring imbalances that go live that could have easily been spotted. Microsoft has the resources to hire a dedicated team to playtest their combat. There is really no good reason why they don't. They had a large staff before the layoffs you mentioned, and they still didn't do it. So, it's clear to me this is not resource issue. It's just their general design philosophy that has decided - for whatever reason - to rely on player feedback for balance purposes, and that is a mistake.
Also; if they would make more of an effort to balance their combat and hire a dedicated team for that purpose, it would end up making them more money (not less). Because I imagine that is the root cause of why many players cancel their subscriptions in the first place. I know it sure was mine. So, it would be worth the investment. Nothing is more frustrating for an individual playing a game then to have their hard work gutted or removed entirely because something was deemed imbalanced by other players. The live server should not be treated as a testing ground.2 -
playsforfun✭✭✭✭Yesplaysforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
The only toxicity I see is coming from the PvE'rs trying to, yet again, claim they are somehow victims of the PvP players. Multiple people in this thread have even suggested removing PvP from the game entirely. It doesn't get any more toxic than that.
It's coming both sides, the division is quite clear but keep the thread constructive, a suggestion is not toxic, it's an option for sure if it can't be balance & is broken then removal of a game feature from the game is for sure an option it's not a path I would personally take, I want to see both PvP & PvE thrive, there are definitely better suggestions out there than complete removal of PvP for sure, maybe something like PvP has to wear PvP gear & PvE has to wear PvE gear, DCUO did this & I know other mmo's do this as well, it's the only way I see real balance without effecting eachother, this way the two are balanced separately in tandem with one another, to do this updating useless PvP sets to have similar set bonus that PvE have so you still have the variety to choose from so you still can enjoy the playstyles you would like to have within the game.
*Edit* I am going to say this with the current trajectory no one is winning not PvE & not PvP, people are leaving from both sides which isn't good for either of the playerbase, you have to see the bigger picture here, it's a game with uncertainty currently we don't know what is going to happen in the future but this is an old mmo now which is struggling to retain new players & slowly has been dripping players over the years, if we want this game to exist for many more years we need to figure out a solution that works for both PvE & PvP, also we don't know if the big M will do more layoffs, so this is something that should be up on the top of priority list while we still have time.Edited by playsforfun on 6 September 2026 05:233 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭✭YesCatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »I sentence the OP to 50 hours of mandatory cyrodiil front lines for this offense. You will come to love the labors of balance and suffer its faults until then.
People who wanted to try to do Veterancy and thought it was fun to play the new WW and DK are walking away from the game now. They are already off the collapsing trial rosters. So are the Wardens and Signet users you had ruined. So are the Sorcerers you want gutted. And they aren’t going to attempt to finish it, aren’t going to wait for reworks and have and are still moving into other games now. Just because the other 6 Classes have bad Sustain doesn't mean you ruin the 2 that don't. They aren't broken and neither is Sorcerer. You finish the other ones. And the more people that read these threads and see it's the same toxic people, with the same bad attitudes and the constant calls to ruin everyone's characters, the more people understand that investing another penny in this game is pointless. It's the same thing as paying ball groups and nerf callers to ruin the entire game while every one of you demonize the subscription of millions of other people. Whether they play PvP or not. Because you died, and everyone else should be nerfed🤡
It is abundantly clear to everyone that every single one of our characters will be immediately destroyed upon release now. And they are being destroyed. Nerfs have never, do not and will never create balance. They have not created balance in 11 years! You are attempting to prop up a broken and unbalanceable state of combat that is a subdivision of what was once one of the greatest MMOs of all time. Even suggesting otherwise is fallacy. Show me when balance was achieved in 11 straight years of nerfs.
It's time to try the only thing we have never tried. That's STOPPING THE NERFS. It's time to stop letting an absolute minority of Ball Groups and nerf callers influence more bad decisions by Zos. I strongly urge the developers to investigate Guild activity, Group Finder activity, PvP player counts and ques in relation to these unjustified, unreasonable and game killing nerfs. And check the percentages against the entire overall game population in direct correlation to them. Not just the smallest pond of people who want clicks on their streams and websites. And do a complete in game survey of the entire game population about the reality if where these nerfs stem from and how many people have left and are expected to leave when they happen. And incorporate it against the same numbers over the entire history of Eso. And also to take back control of their own combat system, hire professionals and eliminate the PTS in its entirety.
Something has to change. What has been going on and is going on is not going to work anymore.
So basically, they are quitting because their cheese melted? Is it their first time?
And if someone only plays a game mode because they can build to become a god without any thought, then it literally proves balance is bad and needs adjusting.
Lastly, how can taking power that wasn't there a two to three patches ago "ruin" a game that was functioning without it?
Those are things you and anyone else that feels the same way need to answer. Somehow I don't think a convincing answer will ever be found.
Now that you mention it, remove Subclassing. Start there, then don't add any costs to the zero cost abilities either. Also, don't consider nerfing block like they're talking about in the pts thread. Haven't needed any of these in 10 years1 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭✭YesOceanchanter wrote: »ZOS needs their own team of experts to test new skills and gear before they go live. Relying on player input after the fact to balance your game through nerfs is a recipe for disaster for many reasons.
That would require more staff to be hired/delegated to a testing task.
They did just had a wave of layoffs, and IIRC it's still not really over but I get mixed signals.
My former coworker always joked you can spend a work week "licking walls" looking for a crack in the world's boundaries, but a player will still find a hole in it and clip through.
So I imagine that even if ZOS went that direction, it still wouldn't be enough because its a team of few people vs whole playerbase's creativity.
@Luneca pointed out to me the matter of how many people actually want a nerf or buff, and that's a great point.
If the vibe is that ZOS does not listen, or however they collect the data on what should be nerfed/buffed is not satisfying - then maybe using the feedback system to submit nerf/buff requests could be a more streamlined solution.
That way we'd see if, for example, Negate Magic really is a problematic skill or is it just a selected few that find it problematic.
The request/suggestion to focus on Class Reworks already has better turnover for voting in the Feedbacks than that one poll on the forum in General suggestions (+2k vs ~150 people had voted), so by that alone it looks like its working.
Still doesn't solve the issue of such nerfs or buffs affecting PvE, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
These aren't "cracks" though. These are glaring imbalances that go live that could have easily been spotted. Microsoft has the resources to hire a dedicated team to playtest their combat. There is really no good reason why they don't. They had a large staff before the layoffs you mentioned, and they still didn't do it. So, it's clear to me this is not resource issue. It's just their general design philosophy that has decided - for whatever reason - to rely on player feedback for balance purposes, and that is a mistake.
Also; if they would make more of an effort to balance their combat and hire a dedicated team for that purpose, it would end up making them more money (not less). Because I imagine that is the root cause of why many players cancel their subscriptions in the first place. I know it sure was mine. So, it would be worth the investment. Nothing is more frustrating for an individual playing a game then to have their hard work gutted or removed entirely because something was deemed imbalanced by other players. The live server should not be treated as a testing ground.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
The point of this anecdote was to portray that playerbase is in vastly larger numbers than that imaginary "team of professionals" being proposed.
A team of, say, 20 can test only so much within given time window.
I wouldn't hold my breath ZOS hires some PvP professionals to test the balance.
I'm pretty sure ZOS already has something like a balance/combat team, but the wishes of some players don't align with whatever they are doing + long cycles between patches do make it look like they don't listen because the fix is not wthin 2h of making the post.
As for the rest - sorry, but its "tell me you never worked corporate without telling me you never worked corporate" type of situation.
It's not as simple as you're making it to be, and the topic is not really about it, so I won't address that further.
0 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoOceanchanter wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »ZOS needs their own team of experts to test new skills and gear before they go live. Relying on player input after the fact to balance your game through nerfs is a recipe for disaster for many reasons.
That would require more staff to be hired/delegated to a testing task.
They did just had a wave of layoffs, and IIRC it's still not really over but I get mixed signals.
My former coworker always joked you can spend a work week "licking walls" looking for a crack in the world's boundaries, but a player will still find a hole in it and clip through.
So I imagine that even if ZOS went that direction, it still wouldn't be enough because its a team of few people vs whole playerbase's creativity.
@Luneca pointed out to me the matter of how many people actually want a nerf or buff, and that's a great point.
If the vibe is that ZOS does not listen, or however they collect the data on what should be nerfed/buffed is not satisfying - then maybe using the feedback system to submit nerf/buff requests could be a more streamlined solution.
That way we'd see if, for example, Negate Magic really is a problematic skill or is it just a selected few that find it problematic.
The request/suggestion to focus on Class Reworks already has better turnover for voting in the Feedbacks than that one poll on the forum in General suggestions (+2k vs ~150 people had voted), so by that alone it looks like its working.
Still doesn't solve the issue of such nerfs or buffs affecting PvE, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
These aren't "cracks" though. These are glaring imbalances that go live that could have easily been spotted. Microsoft has the resources to hire a dedicated team to playtest their combat. There is really no good reason why they don't. They had a large staff before the layoffs you mentioned, and they still didn't do it. So, it's clear to me this is not resource issue. It's just their general design philosophy that has decided - for whatever reason - to rely on player feedback for balance purposes, and that is a mistake.
Also; if they would make more of an effort to balance their combat and hire a dedicated team for that purpose, it would end up making them more money (not less). Because I imagine that is the root cause of why many players cancel their subscriptions in the first place. I know it sure was mine. So, it would be worth the investment. Nothing is more frustrating for an individual playing a game then to have their hard work gutted or removed entirely because something was deemed imbalanced by other players. The live server should not be treated as a testing ground.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
The point of this anecdote was to portray that playerbase is in vastly larger numbers than that imaginary "team of professionals" being proposed.
A team of, say, 20 can test only so much within given time window.
I wouldn't hold my breath ZOS hires some PvP professionals to test the balance.
I'm pretty sure ZOS already has something like a balance/combat team, but the wishes of some players don't align with whatever they are doing + long cycles between patches do make it look like they don't listen because the fix is not wthin 2h of making the post.
As for the rest - sorry, but its "tell me you never worked corporate without telling me you never worked corporate" type of situation.
It's not as simple as you're making it to be, and the topic is not really about it, so I won't address that further.
The whole QC argument remains moot as long as ZOS is willing to release broken content against better knowledge. Many severe issues have been spotted and highlighted multiple times already upon the release of patch notes. Cramming class balancing into PTS cycles seems to be a losing strategy, if the quality of changes is regularly not even making it through the conceptual/planning stages.
PTS should be purely for implementation testing and combat DEVs should work closely with community feedback.0 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Noplaysforfun wrote: »playsforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
The only toxicity I see is coming from the PvE'rs trying to, yet again, claim they are somehow victims of the PvP players. Multiple people in this thread have even suggested removing PvP from the game entirely. It doesn't get any more toxic than that.
It's coming both sides, the division is quite clear but keep the thread constructive, a suggestion is not toxic, it's an option for sure if it can't be balance & is broken then removal of a game feature from the game is for sure an option it's not a path I would personally take, I want to see both PvP & PvE thrive, there are definitely better suggestions out there than complete removal of PvP for sure, maybe something like PvP has to wear PvP gear & PvE has to wear PvE gear, DCUO did this & I know other mmo's do this as well, it's the only way I see real balance without effecting eachother, this way the two are balanced separately in tandem with one another, to do this updating useless PvP sets to have similar set bonus that PvE have so you still have the variety to choose from so you still can enjoy the playstyles you would like to have within the game.
*Edit* I am going to say this with the current trajectory no one is winning not PvE & not PvP, people are leaving from both sides which isn't good for either of the playerbase, you have to see the bigger picture here, it's a game with uncertainty currently we don't know what is going to happen in the future but this is an old mmo now which is struggling to retain new players & slowly has been dripping players over the years, if we want this game to exist for many more years we need to figure out a solution that works for both PvE & PvP, also we don't know if the big M will do more layoffs, so this is something that should be up on the top of priority list while we still have time.
No.
The entire premise of your thread is baseless.
Sets and skills are not nerfed because they are over performing in PvP. Sets are nerfed because they are over performing in every aspect of the game. It's just that the PvP'rs know how to get the most out of the toolbox and quickly figure out what is and isn't OP.
Your OP is designed to create and encourage a rift between PvE and PvP and blame PvP players for actions ZOS takes.3 -
ellmarie✭✭✭✭YesYes, and it hasn't been just happening these days. It's been like this for years. I play on console, so for years I had no add-ons or anything and building a character to the level and strength you wanted was a milestone. 'Yay I finally did a dungeon or trial to get the right gear'! It was a feat to get your build to a level that you could actually fight a boss yourself or do single play. So, for them to nerf things that get too powerful on your PvE build has always been frustrating for me. If there's certain gear that's better for PvE and/or in PvP lands, just dedicate changing the gear buffs instead of the skill lines. I mean you wouldn't take your PvE build into PvP generally, so I'm not sure why it has to be a nerf to the whole skill. Why does it have to be balanced. There could be dedicated classes or whatever for each how you play.Xbox X- NA1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭playsforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
The only toxicity I see is coming from the PvE'rs trying to, yet again, claim they are somehow victims of the PvP players. Multiple people in this thread have even suggested removing PvP from the game entirely. It doesn't get any more toxic than that.
I'm guessing you didn't see the number of comments just very recently deleted. Some of them were outright nasty.Edited by DenverRalphy on 6 September 2026 14:403 -
playsforfun✭✭✭✭Yesplaysforfun wrote: »playsforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
The only toxicity I see is coming from the PvE'rs trying to, yet again, claim they are somehow victims of the PvP players. Multiple people in this thread have even suggested removing PvP from the game entirely. It doesn't get any more toxic than that.
It's coming both sides, the division is quite clear but keep the thread constructive, a suggestion is not toxic, it's an option for sure if it can't be balance & is broken then removal of a game feature from the game is for sure an option it's not a path I would personally take, I want to see both PvP & PvE thrive, there are definitely better suggestions out there than complete removal of PvP for sure, maybe something like PvP has to wear PvP gear & PvE has to wear PvE gear, DCUO did this & I know other mmo's do this as well, it's the only way I see real balance without effecting eachother, this way the two are balanced separately in tandem with one another, to do this updating useless PvP sets to have similar set bonus that PvE have so you still have the variety to choose from so you still can enjoy the playstyles you would like to have within the game.
*Edit* I am going to say this with the current trajectory no one is winning not PvE & not PvP, people are leaving from both sides which isn't good for either of the playerbase, you have to see the bigger picture here, it's a game with uncertainty currently we don't know what is going to happen in the future but this is an old mmo now which is struggling to retain new players & slowly has been dripping players over the years, if we want this game to exist for many more years we need to figure out a solution that works for both PvE & PvP, also we don't know if the big M will do more layoffs, so this is something that should be up on the top of priority list while we still have time.
No.
The entire premise of your thread is baseless.
Sets and skills are not nerfed because they are over performing in PvP. Sets are nerfed because they are over performing in every aspect of the game. It's just that the PvP'rs know how to get the most out of the toolbox and quickly figure out what is and isn't OP.
Your OP is designed to create and encourage a rift between PvE and PvP and blame PvP players for actions ZOS takes.
You are not seeing the bigger picture this effects both sides, if people leave the game it effects both PvE & PvP & the game itself in general.
If we want this game to be around for a long time it's something that needs to be discussed, if we brush it under the table it'll be too lateEdited by playsforfun on 6 September 2026 16:511 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »ZOS needs their own team of experts to test new skills and gear before they go live. Relying on player input after the fact to balance your game through nerfs is a recipe for disaster for many reasons.
That would require more staff to be hired/delegated to a testing task.
They did just had a wave of layoffs, and IIRC it's still not really over but I get mixed signals.
My former coworker always joked you can spend a work week "licking walls" looking for a crack in the world's boundaries, but a player will still find a hole in it and clip through.
So I imagine that even if ZOS went that direction, it still wouldn't be enough because its a team of few people vs whole playerbase's creativity.
@Luneca pointed out to me the matter of how many people actually want a nerf or buff, and that's a great point.
If the vibe is that ZOS does not listen, or however they collect the data on what should be nerfed/buffed is not satisfying - then maybe using the feedback system to submit nerf/buff requests could be a more streamlined solution.
That way we'd see if, for example, Negate Magic really is a problematic skill or is it just a selected few that find it problematic.
The request/suggestion to focus on Class Reworks already has better turnover for voting in the Feedbacks than that one poll on the forum in General suggestions (+2k vs ~150 people had voted), so by that alone it looks like its working.
Still doesn't solve the issue of such nerfs or buffs affecting PvE, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
These aren't "cracks" though. These are glaring imbalances that go live that could have easily been spotted. Microsoft has the resources to hire a dedicated team to playtest their combat. There is really no good reason why they don't. They had a large staff before the layoffs you mentioned, and they still didn't do it. So, it's clear to me this is not resource issue. It's just their general design philosophy that has decided - for whatever reason - to rely on player feedback for balance purposes, and that is a mistake.
Also; if they would make more of an effort to balance their combat and hire a dedicated team for that purpose, it would end up making them more money (not less). Because I imagine that is the root cause of why many players cancel their subscriptions in the first place. I know it sure was mine. So, it would be worth the investment. Nothing is more frustrating for an individual playing a game then to have their hard work gutted or removed entirely because something was deemed imbalanced by other players. The live server should not be treated as a testing ground.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
The point of this anecdote was to portray that playerbase is in vastly larger numbers than that imaginary "team of professionals" being proposed.
A team of, say, 20 can test only so much within given time window.
I wouldn't hold my breath ZOS hires some PvP professionals to test the balance.
I'm pretty sure ZOS already has something like a balance/combat team, but the wishes of some players don't align with whatever they are doing + long cycles between patches do make it look like they don't listen because the fix is not wthin 2h of making the post.
As for the rest - sorry, but its "tell me you never worked corporate without telling me you never worked corporate" type of situation.
It's not as simple as you're making it to be, and the topic is not really about it, so I won't address that further.
But it is as simple as I'm making it out to be. If they would hire an actual team dedicated to playtesting and balancing their skills (instead of relying on player feedback) this problem would drastically improve. This game's combat is not that complicated and could be efficiently balanced if the effort was put in.
I also don't think the numbers you are referring to matter in this case. In fact, I think the numbers are actually a negative. Player feedback is a reliable source of good information when it comes to QoL features, bugs and new content. But for combat balance - especially in a PvP environment - it's not. There is too much bias involved, and the more bias feedback you receive the more detrimental it becomes. Players are going to want to buff what they like and nerf what they don't like; and if you listen to them your PvP combat is going to become the erratic mess it is now.
So let me say it again; what this game desperately needs is a dedicated team whose sole focus is to test and ensure balance before any new skills or gear are released onto the live servers. It also needs to be a confident team that is willing to stand by their decisions and not be influenced by streamers and/or players complaining on the forums. Because as I pointed out, these are not reliable sources of feedback when it comes to PvP balance. Part of a game designer's job is to protect players from themselves. In any case, this would at least lead to a more stable PvP environment. And honestly, that alone would be a vast improvement.Edited by Jeremy on 6 September 2026 21:461 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭✭YesOceanchanter wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »ZOS needs their own team of experts to test new skills and gear before they go live. Relying on player input after the fact to balance your game through nerfs is a recipe for disaster for many reasons.
That would require more staff to be hired/delegated to a testing task.
They did just had a wave of layoffs, and IIRC it's still not really over but I get mixed signals.
My former coworker always joked you can spend a work week "licking walls" looking for a crack in the world's boundaries, but a player will still find a hole in it and clip through.
So I imagine that even if ZOS went that direction, it still wouldn't be enough because its a team of few people vs whole playerbase's creativity.
@Luneca pointed out to me the matter of how many people actually want a nerf or buff, and that's a great point.
If the vibe is that ZOS does not listen, or however they collect the data on what should be nerfed/buffed is not satisfying - then maybe using the feedback system to submit nerf/buff requests could be a more streamlined solution.
That way we'd see if, for example, Negate Magic really is a problematic skill or is it just a selected few that find it problematic.
The request/suggestion to focus on Class Reworks already has better turnover for voting in the Feedbacks than that one poll on the forum in General suggestions (+2k vs ~150 people had voted), so by that alone it looks like its working.
Still doesn't solve the issue of such nerfs or buffs affecting PvE, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
These aren't "cracks" though. These are glaring imbalances that go live that could have easily been spotted. Microsoft has the resources to hire a dedicated team to playtest their combat. There is really no good reason why they don't. They had a large staff before the layoffs you mentioned, and they still didn't do it. So, it's clear to me this is not resource issue. It's just their general design philosophy that has decided - for whatever reason - to rely on player feedback for balance purposes, and that is a mistake.
Also; if they would make more of an effort to balance their combat and hire a dedicated team for that purpose, it would end up making them more money (not less). Because I imagine that is the root cause of why many players cancel their subscriptions in the first place. I know it sure was mine. So, it would be worth the investment. Nothing is more frustrating for an individual playing a game then to have their hard work gutted or removed entirely because something was deemed imbalanced by other players. The live server should not be treated as a testing ground.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
The point of this anecdote was to portray that playerbase is in vastly larger numbers than that imaginary "team of professionals" being proposed.
A team of, say, 20 can test only so much within given time window.
I wouldn't hold my breath ZOS hires some PvP professionals to test the balance.
I'm pretty sure ZOS already has something like a balance/combat team, but the wishes of some players don't align with whatever they are doing + long cycles between patches do make it look like they don't listen because the fix is not wthin 2h of making the post.
As for the rest - sorry, but its "tell me you never worked corporate without telling me you never worked corporate" type of situation.
It's not as simple as you're making it to be, and the topic is not really about it, so I won't address that further.
But it is as simple as I'm making it out to be. If they would hire an actual team dedicated to playtesting and balancing their skills (instead of relying on player feedback) this problem would drastically improve. This game's combat is not that complicated and could be efficiently balanced if the effort was put in.
I also don't think the numbers you are referring to matter in this case. In fact, I think the numbers are actually a negative. Player feedback is a reliable source of good information when it comes to QoL features, bugs and new content. But for combat balance - especially in a PvP environment - it's not. There is too much bias involved, and the more bias feedback you receive the more detrimental it becomes. Players are going to want to buff what they like and nerf what they don't like; and if you listen to them your PvP combat is going to become the erratic mess it is now.
So let me say it again; what this game desperately needs is a dedicated team whose sole focus is to test and ensure balance before any new skills or gear are released onto the live servers. It also needs to be a confident team that is willing to stand by their decisions and not be influenced by streamers and/or players complaining on the forums. Because as I pointed out, these are not reliable sources of feedback when it comes to PvP balance. Part of a game designer's job is to protect players from themselves. In any case, this would at least lead to a more stable PvP environment. And honestly, that alone would be a vast improvement.
Like I've said before - layoffs do not mean "more people to hire" in the corporate world.
Sometimes it does, more often it doesn't
Besides.
Quick google search or reading PTS patch notes tells you about the "combat team".
Brian Wheeler previously held the title of Lead Combat Designer. After the layoffs I didn't find new info on who is LCD now.
Official patch notes, PTS updates, and developer letters frequently refer to “the combat team”.
And the team handles PvP and PvE tuning, item changes, sets, and class refreshes - among probably many other things combat related.
So ZOS already has such a team, and you can read about them as recently as the U51 PTS notes to see they do exist.
You can tag Kevin or Icy to confirm if you don't believe me.
If the current team is not enough for people, new "team of professionals" doing exactly the same thing won't be enough either.0 -
ToddIngram✭✭✭✭✭Noplaysforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
Stop blaming PvP players for actions taken by ZOS. Stop trying to divide the PvP and PvE communities. And stop complaining that it's PvP players that tend to find the faults in OP gear first.0 -
ToddIngram✭✭✭✭✭NoJustLovely wrote: »playsforfun wrote: »Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.
PvE players ARE NOT victims of the PvP players. They just aren't.
Sets and skills are nerfed because they are over performing. It's just that the PvP players typically know how to make builds better than most PvE players and can get more out of them, so the OP nature of something is more obvious in a PvP environment.
If anyone is wondering why there is animosity between the PvP players and the PvE players, just read the original post. The PvE players have convinced themselves that they are somehow victims of the PvP players.
This is the problem and what this thread is about.0 -
Leighlaa✭✭✭✭NoAs a person who normally only does pve but has played since closed beta (iow, I've been around long enough to have an opinion here) and has, on occasion, dipped into BGs and cyro/IC (though mostly BGs)- when big imbalances in EITHER pvp OR pve happen, they *MUST* be addressed. I've been following this thread and others (popcorn in hand) for at least a week now, and I think it all comes down to these points:
1. PvE gamers who like to play ww are sad they finally got juiced, and now it's being taken away. THIS IS VALID. Sure, they were once just hanging out in Grahtwood, yipping at each others' tails and RPing all kinds of great Hircine stories, but NOW everyone wants, nay *NEEDS* one on their vet [insert a trial said RPing ww has NEVER stepped paw into] and will carry any woof who's willing to howl at the right intervals. My own (16th) alt nb ww finally got to come out of retirement after 3 years of storing saberkeel pages, hoping they'll increase in value (they won't).
2. PvP gamers who are getting 50-0-35 scores in BG are sad because it's getting taken away. ALSO VALID! If you sucked at BGs before, now you have a REALLY EASY WAY to wreck people! You're getting INSANE scores! You're a MENACE! People are calling you a filthy dog and you. JUST. LOVE IT! And now, now because a bunch of crybabies can't take getting beaten, YOU have to give it up? Lame. I get it! It's fun to win!
3. The changes are pointless because ESO is dead anyways. Ok ty fengrush, the game has been dying for 10 years now. I don't really care. I'll play the GAME I LIKE until they sunset it, so yeah, I'm ok with them PLACATING ME AND OTHERS and *pretending* to listen. No, they're actually listening. They aren't fired yet and they still have kids to feed, so they still have to do their jobs until the game isn't paying them anymore. Your argument is lame and I've been hearing it for years. If they are doing it all to placate, that's FINE. That is a part of their JOB.
4. I'm a pvp player getting DESTROYED and it's not fun anymore. THIS IS VALID! It is *not* fun to get wrecked again and again, by the SAME people in a system that is supposedly balanced (MMR exists for a reason, supposedly, but I feel like it's just to keep me in no-BG jail when I queue at the same time as my husband, who is also good). It is *especially* not fun when they refuse to play the objective, turning every game into a deathmatch. This happens regardless of ww imbalances, of course, but it is FELT much more heavily when an imbalance like this one exists. There have been others in the past, and this is the current pvp imbalance that makes it NOT FUN. How is this different than PvE imbalance though?Because PvP involves an imbalance between PEOPLE, not a computer and a single gamer or team of gamers. In an MMO, when there is an imbalance between things that include a SOCIAL ELEMENT...... THEY MUST COME FIRST!!!! If you were just playing Skyrim or Morrowind, your ww could and maybe even should be able to be the god-like hero you imagine... but here in ESO Tamriel, you're not alone! You're playing with OTHER PEOPLE! I hate to break it to you Vestige, but you're not the only one here who matters.
5. I play some other class and just think they should balance THAT instead. Shut up about ww. ALSO VALID! This game has and probably always will favor certain classes over others. That doesn't mean they don't want those classes and playstyles (ww, vamp) to be FUN! I just wish that people would understand that FUN and correct to the class's identity doesn't always correlate to "equal in all ways on all roles on all fronts with all playstyles". I just don't know that that is possible! And I don't know why you feel like it HAS TO BE! I adore certain builds I have... regardless of if they're BiS or not. I have a silly damage shield/healing pvp sorc that is like... 7? years old...... but I LIKE TO PLAY HER because she's FUN for me and I like her kit. Could I put out higher hps? Probably! But I like to troll people into thinking I'm a damaging sorc, then negating them while my friends kill them and all I do is heal and shield. Now, if I were completely inept with that build, or all of a sudden it POOFED in front of my face, I'd likely be pretty upset, because I ENJOY playing it and all of a sudden it wouldn't be viable anymore (BiS or not).
The very, very long point I'm trying to summarize here is that everyone has something they're upset about, and that's ok. Everyone in this thread seems to be fighting with each other without realizing the valid points (almost) everyone has made. Can we all agree that we love this game and that's why we're so passionate about fighting for our particular playstyle? I have my opinions about a lot of the current builds, changes, and nerfs, but I think the whole poll was about whether or not it is valid to talk about this and have feelings/conversations/threads about it. I think not only is it VALID and fine but shows the HEALTH of the game. In an MMO, the community is infinitely important- and I think we're losing the plot a little here. I think it is less about, "do we have too many threads about this," and should be more- "are the threads we DO HAVE meaningful, and in what way?" Some would argue that they are pointless. That fatalist approach is one I would rather not validate because I would like to support the game we all seem to pretty passionately enjoy.
tl;dr: We all have a lot of (mostly valid) opinions about this game, but I think we can all agree we want it to keep going because we like it!PCNA - Changuita0 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭✭YesAt this point I firmly believe separating PvP and PvE into two different game modes, each with their own multipliers and tuning, is the way to go.
Nerfs and buffs in PvP wouldn't affect PvE and vice-versa.
Some PvErs wouldn't feel like anything some PvPers finds OP will be taken away, and some PvPers won't feel oppressed when there's another "nerf this" or "buff that" post some PvErs are fed up with.
Not counting on it happening anytime soon, there's enough to do as it is, but I personally think it would be the healthiest path to take in the future.
For now a dedicated section for PvP discussion on the forum would offload most, if not all, the tension related to the topic of this thread.
And before some other PvP player overdramatizes what I've said and takes it as a personal attack or something (again).
It's just an idea based on another MMO I play, and it's not a veiled way of saying PvPers should sit and say nothing.1 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoOceanchanter wrote: »At this point I firmly believe separating PvP and PvE into two different game modes, each with their own multipliers and tuning, is the way to go.
Nerfs and buffs in PvP wouldn't affect PvE and vice-versa.
Some PvErs wouldn't feel like anything some PvPers finds OP will be taken away, and some PvPers won't feel oppressed when there's another "nerf this" or "buff that" post some PvErs are fed up with.
Not counting on it happening anytime soon, there's enough to do as it is, but I personally think it would be the healthiest path to take in the future.
For now a dedicated section for PvP discussion on the forum would offload most, if not all, the tension related to the topic of this thread.
And before some other PvP player overdramatizes what I've said and takes it as a personal attack or something (again).
It's just an idea based on another MMO I play, and it's not a veiled way of saying PvPers should sit and say nothing.
I can obviously only speak for myself, but that would be the worst thing that can happen to game for me. It makes no sense to destroy a somehwat a decent PvPvE power spectrum just because some people like to steamroll PvE content.
Going by this comment and a previous one, I presume your are speaking about GW2. There is no real reason to copy any GW2 features, because that game has almost nothing of value to offer. It is a cozy-fied, self-congratulatory echo chamber for grind&zerg busywork. They had to split balancing by mode because they were unable to actually make it work otherwise. It is a combat design failure, that is somehow being advertised as great example.
I have stated it a thousand times and I will state it a million more times: There is simply no reason why PvE power scaling can not be aligned with PvP scaling. Any encounter can be scaled to match any type of player check.
Sure it is just and idea. But it is a horrible idea. I have nothing but negative feelings about this perspective.
There are many better ways of balancing PvE power between classes and increasing PvP accessibility. Just because the devs are slow to act on those and are somehow stuck in a cycle of self-sabotage, doesn't mean we have to consider the worst options first.
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katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »At this point I firmly believe separating PvP and PvE into two different game modes, each with their own multipliers and tuning, is the way to go.
Nerfs and buffs in PvP wouldn't affect PvE and vice-versa.
Some PvErs wouldn't feel like anything some PvPers finds OP will be taken away, and some PvPers won't feel oppressed when there's another "nerf this" or "buff that" post some PvErs are fed up with.
Not counting on it happening anytime soon, there's enough to do as it is, but I personally think it would be the healthiest path to take in the future.
For now a dedicated section for PvP discussion on the forum would offload most, if not all, the tension related to the topic of this thread.
And before some other PvP player overdramatizes what I've said and takes it as a personal attack or something (again).
It's just an idea based on another MMO I play, and it's not a veiled way of saying PvPers should sit and say nothing.
These discussions should not be moved to the PvP section to die.
Many of us do both PvP and PvE so it should be front and center, I never go to the PvP section. While participating n PvP in game you often use PvE sets and vice versa. Changing the game to disallow any sets or skills from one to the other would be a monumental task for the devs as their numbers have been reduced, that’s even a huge task if they weren’t. The class reworks will likely address some of the concerns we have now, unfortunately we will have to wait a long time to find out.
PS5 NA1 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭✭YesI can obviously only speak for myself, but that would be the worst thing that can happen to game for me. It makes no sense to destroy a somehwat a decent PvPvE power spectrum just because some people like to steamroll PvE content.
Going by this comment and a previous one, I presume your are speaking about GW2. There is no real reason to copy any GW2 features, because that game has almost nothing of value to offer. It is a cozy-fied, self-congratulatory echo chamber for grind&zerg busywork. They had to split balancing by mode because they were unable to actually make it work otherwise. It is a combat design failure, that is somehow being advertised as great example.
I have stated it a thousand times and I will state it a million more times: There is simply no reason why PvE power scaling can not be aligned with PvP scaling. Any encounter can be scaled to match any type of player check.
Sure it is just and idea. But it is a horrible idea. I have nothing but negative feelings about this perspective.
There are many better ways of balancing PvE power between classes and increasing PvP accessibility. Just because the devs are slow to act on those and are somehow stuck in a cycle of self-sabotage, doesn't mean we have to consider the worst options first.
Yes, I was talking about GW2.
And your feelings about the game as noted, but still considered subjective.
I wouldnt call Heart of Thorns or Path of Fire cozy; not the first time they dropped.
I love both games and I find myself swinging from one to another like a pendulum.
I just see something that works there and thought it could work as a solution to the problems like Azureblight had.
I'm under no delusions of grandeur ZOS will even sit down during their meetings like "damn, that Oceanchanter dude cooks good, lets do that".
Although it seems some people took my joke of removing PvP as it could really happen, and for that I'm flattered.
I'm also not one of those impatient people waiting for changes.
They'll take as much time as they see fit to make changes, and all we can do is be patient.
It's a shame some lack patience tho.katanagirl1 wrote: »These discussions should not be moved to the PvP section to die.
Many of us do both PvP and PvE so it should be front and center, I never go to the PvP section. While participating n PvP in game you often use PvE sets and vice versa. Changing the game to disallow any sets or skills from one to the other would be a monumental task for the devs as their numbers have been reduced, that’s even a huge task if they weren’t. The class reworks will likely address some of the concerns we have now, unfortunately we will have to wait a long time to find out.
Why do you assume those discussions would die?
PvP focused and oriented players will still go there and participate, same goes for anyone curious or feeling up for it.
I mean, the lore guys have their own section, and discuss lore there, not bothering anyone who are not really interested what the story is about.
They seem to be doing fine.
I'm just entertaining this as a solution to people being fed up with discussions popping up because someone was ran over by someone running a specific setup.
Also, I never said that those game modes would disallow using certain sets between them.
It's already happening anyway. For example, Plaguebreak is useless in PvE nowadays because it was very/too effective on guards in Cyrodill and other non-player enemies.
It was certainly fun to use in PvE. Too fun as it turns out when you clear entire dungeons with it.
PvP/PvE split modifiers/condition modifications was my main way of thinking.
In a true PvP/PvE split, Plaguebreaker could still work in PvE but with nerfed values so it doesn't overperform too much, while in PvP it could target only players.
PvE would still have a nice set for trash clear while PvP retained the balance it has nowadays.
I do agree with you Class Refreshes will be the chance to make balance better.
We'll just have to go through the growing pains all over again.
I bet a bag of skooma there will be complaints and nerf threads about Warden next year when the refresh drops.
Then about Templar, Sorcerer, Nightblade, and other classes.
Meanwhile, each of classes that received a rework will finally feel the pressure of newly refreshed classes and ask for buffs because they cannot play on easy anymore.
A neverending cycle.1 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoOceanchanter wrote: »I wouldnt call Heart of Thorns or Path of Fire cozy; not the first time they dropped.
I could even somewhat agree on that, but sadly that was already 9 years ago. I could list all of the decisions that I consider to be bad/problematic for that period of time, but that would probably derail this thread needlessly.
Suffice it to say, that I believe ESO is always best, when PvE and PvP have great compatibility. Everytime the devs decide to go for a "against players", "against monsters", "empower", or "crit res" solution, a little bit of the magic of Tamriel dies - sacrificed for dry, hollow game mechanics and an approximation of numerical parity that could have been achieved otherwise.
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