CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well, just to summarize some sorcerer PvP history:

U40 - sorcerer WINS 1v1 tournament on PC NA. It even win with templar at finals, despise the fact that 1v1 arena is most favourable environment for templar. Conclusion: sorcerer is definetely the strongest PvP class U40.

U40 - clear S tier

U41 - hardened ward buff, now also heals you. Also 10% stam + mag.

U41 - clear S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes.

U42 - scribing is introduced - sorcerer can now use sciribing spammable to become even more powerful. Other classes benefit as well, but sorc benefits the most.

U42 - S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes

U43-45 - no change

U46 - sublclassing is introduced, hardened ward is nerfed - ZOS realizes that if they not neft ward, absolutely everyone will use it.

U46 - of course subclassing is stronger than sorc.

U47 - no change

U48 - There is 1v1 pure class tourmament on PC EU - sorcerers got places 2 and 3, beaten only by 1 templar in most favourable environment for templar, which is closed arena.

Conclussion: if subclassing gets disabled, sorc is strongest PvP class, which is absolutely expected considering U40 sorcerer didn't need buffed ward to be S-tier.

U49 - DK gets OMEGABUFF, wrongly called "rework" (infinite sustain, 8% more healing, 10% more dmg, 25% more dmg whip, minor heroism, 100% stronger dots, 10% more crit dmg, minor breach) - DK of course becomes strongest class. Sorcerer is second.

U50 - class masteries got introduced, sorcerer receives the strongest ones. Conservetion of energy not only gives them hardened ward heal 2.0, it gives them heal on every skill + infinite sustation

U50 - DK and sorc are S+++ tier, other classes are like 3 tiers below, almost nobody plays other classes.

U51 - DK getting nerfed, Sorc getting little nerfed.

U51 prediction - Sorc again the strongest class, dk close second. Other classes will be closer, sure, but still can't touch DK and sorc.

Conclusion looking 10 patches behind: even if you completely remove Conservation of energy, sorcerer can still use font of power and calculated defense and still be strongest PvP class. Even if he can't kill DK, he can always run away with streak.

Root cause of the problem:

Ppl cannot understand that sorc biggest strength is his mobility. Considering sorc is most mobile class, it SHOULD be the weakest class when caught. Then sorc players lose some 1v1, and they cry about sorc lacking burst heal, weak spammable, etc. - they don't understand that sorc relies on mobility, they want to win 1v1. That is why sorc is the most problematic class.

Mage is not supposed to beat knight in 1v1 melee fight. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

We can also look back even further:

U30 to U32 - Dark Convergence, Hrothgar's Chill and Plaguebreak are released around this time and are hard carrying every single class in the game. Didn't matter what class you were on, as long as you had those sets, you could perform well in PvP.

U33 - Resto staff is BiS back bar, and allows for every class to be competitive. Every class was performing in PvP during this patch.

U34 - Savage Werewolf proc-sorc becomes meta due to the build being made public and savage werewolf being insanely overtuned and having interactions that it never should have had (working at range, working with modifiers like overload, and tick stacking with large individual ticks). Oakensoul also released, that was a huge carry for every class (remember perma corrosive DK and unkillable 1 bar necro bombers running rampant in this meta? I remember these builds, they were extremely overpowered and basically just got a slap on the wrist compared to what Sorc gets next patch.)

U35 - ZOS guts everything about Sorcerer, from damage, to healing and more, so much so that ZOS had to panic buff 2 abilities (prey and armaments) directly and 2 more (pets) indirectly by 100% or MORE in the final week of that PTS just to have the class playable on a heavy attack build for PvE and this was during a period where big changes did not happen mid-PTS cycle. Sorcerer vanishes from PvP overnight.

U36 - No changes, Sorcerer is so dead that the kill Sorcerers quest in PvP is an instant-abandon.

U37 - No changes, still the same as U36.

U38 - ZOS gives Sorcerer some small and long overdue QoL improvements (pets mostly, but curse also made unblockable) and also allows Hardened Ward to scale off max health. Sorcerer gains 1 viable PvP build (40k+ health with draugrkin boosted Crushing Shock for damage). Not a top tier class and still weak to sustained pressure just now with a cushion against most burst, but at least it now has a build, so some Sorcerers return to PvP.

U39 - No change, remains the same as U38.

U40 - No change, remains the same as U38/39 while most players have also figured out by now that NB is the undisputed king of PvP due to the buffs it received in U35 and is unmatched this patch (especially open world) until PTS for U41 drops that has massive buffs for Sorcerers so people jump on Sorc in preparation for the incoming buffs.

U41 - ZOS overbuffs the numbers on Hardened Ward, gives it a heal, increases mag scaling, makes Curse fully AoE (undodgable) and a few other buffs. Ward is clearly overperforming and carrying the class. So much so that "tournaments" ban ward specifically just like they ban cloak from NB (the only reason NB doesn't "perform" in these tournaments and also part of the reason I never take these tournaments seriously for balance arguments since they constantly neuter different aspects of all classes that always ends up with biased results, take the U40 tournament where other classes had half their skills banned while Sorc was basically left almost full strength because organizers didn't think it was strong, well of course it wins when its basically "full power" while only having to verse what are essentially half classes every time).

U42 - Scribing introduced, Sorc gets a burst heal (although unneeded due to ward still being overtuned), a spammable option with actually relevant secondary effects.

U43 - ZOS adjusts mag scaling slightly and reduces the heal on Ward and curse is made blockable. Sorc still top tier alongside NB, just no longer pushing ahead of NB. Otherwise no change.

U44/45 - NB and Sorc still the top tier classes in PvP, although 2h Health Wardens with charm start making an appearance alongside them as the warden build gets figured out.

U46 - Sub-classing introduced, everyone is immediately on Animal Companions + Assassination + either Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, or whatever the best line to keep is from their class. Sub-classing immediately takes over the meta.

Late U46 to U48 - Subclassing remains the meta, but now Warden becomes the must have base class specifically for scribed charm. Storm Calling still a popular line, but Sorcerer as a class only remains as the base class of choice for Sorc mains with everyone else jumping on Warden specifically for Charm.

U49 - DK refresh essentially turns DK into god-mode since there's no other refreshed class in the game. DK is unmatched in PvP.

U50 - Class masteries introduced alongside WW refresh, WW is on par with DK, and Sorcs masteries are enough to lift it into third, but the masteries also happen to synergize with WW pushing WW ahead of DK because of this interaction with the masteries that should have not been allowed in the first place.

Proposed changes for U51 - DK receiving the tiniest of nerfs that will make almost zero difference to the overall strength of the class (especially when accounting for the raw buffs as well as ease of use given to landslide), Sorc receiving some nerfs, but none of the nerfs actually directly target the reasons CoE was so strong (health costs and core combat), so problem builds will remain largely unchanged while other Sorc builds will fall off quickly resulting in seeming like more sorcs, but realistically it will just be more of the same problematic builds and less other builds, WW receives nerfs to it's sustain, it now shifts to third place overall with arguments to be made that DK wolf may come out ahead of any other wolf in PvP, rivaling sorc wolf.

Conclusion looking at 20 patches in the past: Mobility is clearly strong, but it is also clearly not enough on its own, especially when so much generic mobility has been given to every class over the years. There has been zero adjustments to streak across the past 20 patches, yet sorc has fluctuated from unplayable (when it only had mobility and nothing else) to top tier (due to other areas being given overtuned buffs) despite Streak remaining the same that entire time.

Root cause of the issue: Other players cannot understand or accept that Sorc NEEDS to have that mobility and that the other classes not designed around that mobility should NOT have access to mobility that is even remotely close to Sorc, otherwise something has to give.
Other players cried for years about Sorcs running away to reset the fight like they expect the Sorc to just stand there like a training dummy and just take their damage when the class was clearly not designed for that, so ZOS tried to placate these people by introducing far too many low investment speed/mobility options (on top of the gap closers and CCs that already existed that were effective against Sorc but people just refused to utilize) that were all generically available to every class without understanding why so much generic mobility on top of existing strong soft counter options has only caused balance issues across the entire game (including the desync issues that forced the melee range increase a few years ago).

If Sorc is to be the mobility class relying on escaping/distance to heal up and reset or to try and line up it's multi-GCD combos, it needs to be THE mobility class, not just a mobility class, THE mobility class. That means other classes need to learn to not complain about Sorcs running away because that is the intended design of the class while other classes are designed differently where all of them (with the exception of NB) rely on raw mitigation and healing instead of avoiding damage (NB is supposed to rely on stealth to avoid damage, not speed, as mobility is Sorcerers intended design but this is another topic and one that was made it's own issue in U35 when ZOS gave NB brawler abilities that made every actual brawler class jealous).

The current state of Sorcerer is literally a case of be careful what you (generic "you" not specific person) wish for. Non-sorcs in the past cried about sorcs running away/creating distance to defend itself or try to set up a combo, instead of just standing there like a training dummy, so ZOS caved in and gave everyone options to easily chase down Sorcerers, completely neutering what was supposed to make Sorcerer unique all because non-sorcs refused to even try the existing options. Well something had to give, either the generic speed/mobility options were heavily nerfed back to more balanced values or ZOS heavily restricted access to them (something non-sorcs would never accept) or Sorc had to be given tools to defend itself in close quarters since it could no longer reliably escape/create distance since every class had near capped (or capped) mobility.

Heavy armor/high mitigation/high healing knights should not be able to chase down highly mobile mages. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

Not reading this, Sorc is the undisputed #2 in PvP having a anime showdown with DK in the clouds while the rest of the classes are forced to watch while treading water and half drowning with ankle weights attached to us through the class mastery pvp restrictions like on nb. Come get your nerfs

So let me get this straight. You probably willingly read through Vinny's clearly biased breakdown of Sorc's recent 10 patches (U40-U50) because his stance aligns with yours, but ignore Turtle_Bot's counterargument (which pointed out the 10 patches before U40 where playing Sorc was mostly unfavorable), his agreement that Sorc was top tier for several patches between U40 and U50, and his analysis of the actual problem of the class?

I do not think that is a good way to display to forum lurkers that you are willing to engage in a good-faith argument lol.

Why would anyone want to read through a 500-page novel about how a class performed across a bunch of past patches when we're here to discuss the current state of balance?

It doesn't even make sense to frame the current balance issues through the lens of past balance patches. The balance of U40, U41, or whatever patch you're trying to bring up is completely irrelevant to whether the class is balanced right now. The only balance patch that matters to this discussion is the current one.

If you want to argue that Sorc is balanced in the current patch, then argue that based on the current patch. A 10-patch history lesson doesn't establish that, and bringing up how the class performed months ago doesn't somehow invalidate the issues being discussed today.

hoangdz wrote: »

All of that does sound ridiculous because you're not even making a fair analogy. You're just maxing out the hyperbolic scale to make your case sound convincing. It doesn't. All of those examples involve some of the hardest hitting abilities or ultimates in the game, while Streak itself barely deals 3k crit on a full damage build. Streak literally isn't even an issue in terms of damage, so unless the Sorc follows up with some 40k burst combo, it's at best an annoyance to deal with. I've never felt threatened to be CCed by Streak because I know for a fact the majority of Sorcs cannot 1 shot me after Streaking, but a DK absolutely can.

Like, if you put a Sorc with Streak + Curse + Frag + Contingency next to a DK with Fossilize + HoF + Incinerate + Whip, the DK will always outperform the Sorc because its combo deals more reliable follow up burst damage. It's as simple as that.

hoangdz wrote: »

As for my question to Oblivion_Protocol. Yes, high-level players rarely get stunned by blockable CCs because sustain is very easy now and frequent block tapping is extremely forgiving. You will still get CCed, but those are not threatening at all. Why do you think almost no DK uses Reverb Bash now even though it's a pretty good stun? Because it's blockable, and Fossilize exists. So if you make Streak blockable, no good player will use it because it would be completely trash against anyone but newbies.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Because Vinny brought it up first? That's your defense?

You're complaining about “selective bias” while selectively deciding which part of the argument you want to talk about. Nobody needs to write a 10-patch dissertation every time they discuss the current balance. The fact that Sorc was weaker 10 patches ago doesn't somehow make its current problems disappear.

And if we're going to start talking about which abilities are “causing” Sorc to overperform, maybe we should start with the elephant in the room: Streak is one of the most overperforming abilities in the game. Pretending the skills themselves are completely irrelevant while pointing at masteries as the one and only source of the problem is just another convenient way to frame the argument.

Also, “just nerf the class masteries and everything is solved” is a pretty impressive oversimplification. If your solution requires pretending the individual abilities and their interactions don't matter, you're not actually identifying the problem—you've just decided what the solution has to be and are working backward from it.

But sure, I'm the one being selective here. lol

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well, just to summarize some sorcerer PvP history:

U40 - sorcerer WINS 1v1 tournament on PC NA. It even win with templar at finals, despise the fact that 1v1 arena is most favourable environment for templar. Conclusion: sorcerer is definetely the strongest PvP class U40.

U40 - clear S tier

U41 - hardened ward buff, now also heals you. Also 10% stam + mag.

U41 - clear S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes.

U42 - scribing is introduced - sorcerer can now use sciribing spammable to become even more powerful. Other classes benefit as well, but sorc benefits the most.

U42 - S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes

U43-45 - no change

U46 - sublclassing is introduced, hardened ward is nerfed - ZOS realizes that if they not neft ward, absolutely everyone will use it.

U46 - of course subclassing is stronger than sorc.

U47 - no change

U48 - There is 1v1 pure class tourmament on PC EU - sorcerers got places 2 and 3, beaten only by 1 templar in most favourable environment for templar, which is closed arena.

Conclussion: if subclassing gets disabled, sorc is strongest PvP class, which is absolutely expected considering U40 sorcerer didn't need buffed ward to be S-tier.

U49 - DK gets OMEGABUFF, wrongly called "rework" (infinite sustain, 8% more healing, 10% more dmg, 25% more dmg whip, minor heroism, 100% stronger dots, 10% more crit dmg, minor breach) - DK of course becomes strongest class. Sorcerer is second.

U50 - class masteries got introduced, sorcerer receives the strongest ones. Conservetion of energy not only gives them hardened ward heal 2.0, it gives them heal on every skill + infinite sustation

U50 - DK and sorc are S+++ tier, other classes are like 3 tiers below, almost nobody plays other classes.

U51 - DK getting nerfed, Sorc getting little nerfed.

U51 prediction - Sorc again the strongest class, dk close second. Other classes will be closer, sure, but still can't touch DK and sorc.

Conclusion looking 10 patches behind: even if you completely remove Conservation of energy, sorcerer can still use font of power and calculated defense and still be strongest PvP class. Even if he can't kill DK, he can always run away with streak.

Root cause of the problem:

Ppl cannot understand that sorc biggest strength is his mobility. Considering sorc is most mobile class, it SHOULD be the weakest class when caught. Then sorc players lose some 1v1, and they cry about sorc lacking burst heal, weak spammable, etc. - they don't understand that sorc relies on mobility, they want to win 1v1. That is why sorc is the most problematic class.

Mage is not supposed to beat knight in 1v1 melee fight. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

We can also look back even further:

U30 to U32 - Dark Convergence, Hrothgar's Chill and Plaguebreak are released around this time and are hard carrying every single class in the game. Didn't matter what class you were on, as long as you had those sets, you could perform well in PvP.

U33 - Resto staff is BiS back bar, and allows for every class to be competitive. Every class was performing in PvP during this patch.

U34 - Savage Werewolf proc-sorc becomes meta due to the build being made public and savage werewolf being insanely overtuned and having interactions that it never should have had (working at range, working with modifiers like overload, and tick stacking with large individual ticks). Oakensoul also released, that was a huge carry for every class (remember perma corrosive DK and unkillable 1 bar necro bombers running rampant in this meta? I remember these builds, they were extremely overpowered and basically just got a slap on the wrist compared to what Sorc gets next patch.)

U35 - ZOS guts everything about Sorcerer, from damage, to healing and more, so much so that ZOS had to panic buff 2 abilities (prey and armaments) directly and 2 more (pets) indirectly by 100% or MORE in the final week of that PTS just to have the class playable on a heavy attack build for PvE and this was during a period where big changes did not happen mid-PTS cycle. Sorcerer vanishes from PvP overnight.

U36 - No changes, Sorcerer is so dead that the kill Sorcerers quest in PvP is an instant-abandon.

U37 - No changes, still the same as U36.

U38 - ZOS gives Sorcerer some small and long overdue QoL improvements (pets mostly, but curse also made unblockable) and also allows Hardened Ward to scale off max health. Sorcerer gains 1 viable PvP build (40k+ health with draugrkin boosted Crushing Shock for damage). Not a top tier class and still weak to sustained pressure just now with a cushion against most burst, but at least it now has a build, so some Sorcerers return to PvP.

U39 - No change, remains the same as U38.

U40 - No change, remains the same as U38/39 while most players have also figured out by now that NB is the undisputed king of PvP due to the buffs it received in U35 and is unmatched this patch (especially open world) until PTS for U41 drops that has massive buffs for Sorcerers so people jump on Sorc in preparation for the incoming buffs.

U41 - ZOS overbuffs the numbers on Hardened Ward, gives it a heal, increases mag scaling, makes Curse fully AoE (undodgable) and a few other buffs. Ward is clearly overperforming and carrying the class. So much so that "tournaments" ban ward specifically just like they ban cloak from NB (the only reason NB doesn't "perform" in these tournaments and also part of the reason I never take these tournaments seriously for balance arguments since they constantly neuter different aspects of all classes that always ends up with biased results, take the U40 tournament where other classes had half their skills banned while Sorc was basically left almost full strength because organizers didn't think it was strong, well of course it wins when its basically "full power" while only having to verse what are essentially half classes every time).

U42 - Scribing introduced, Sorc gets a burst heal (although unneeded due to ward still being overtuned), a spammable option with actually relevant secondary effects.

U43 - ZOS adjusts mag scaling slightly and reduces the heal on Ward and curse is made blockable. Sorc still top tier alongside NB, just no longer pushing ahead of NB. Otherwise no change.

U44/45 - NB and Sorc still the top tier classes in PvP, although 2h Health Wardens with charm start making an appearance alongside them as the warden build gets figured out.

U46 - Sub-classing introduced, everyone is immediately on Animal Companions + Assassination + either Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, or whatever the best line to keep is from their class. Sub-classing immediately takes over the meta.

Late U46 to U48 - Subclassing remains the meta, but now Warden becomes the must have base class specifically for scribed charm. Storm Calling still a popular line, but Sorcerer as a class only remains as the base class of choice for Sorc mains with everyone else jumping on Warden specifically for Charm.

U49 - DK refresh essentially turns DK into god-mode since there's no other refreshed class in the game. DK is unmatched in PvP.

U50 - Class masteries introduced alongside WW refresh, WW is on par with DK, and Sorcs masteries are enough to lift it into third, but the masteries also happen to synergize with WW pushing WW ahead of DK because of this interaction with the masteries that should have not been allowed in the first place.

Proposed changes for U51 - DK receiving the tiniest of nerfs that will make almost zero difference to the overall strength of the class (especially when accounting for the raw buffs as well as ease of use given to landslide), Sorc receiving some nerfs, but none of the nerfs actually directly target the reasons CoE was so strong (health costs and core combat), so problem builds will remain largely unchanged while other Sorc builds will fall off quickly resulting in seeming like more sorcs, but realistically it will just be more of the same problematic builds and less other builds, WW receives nerfs to it's sustain, it now shifts to third place overall with arguments to be made that DK wolf may come out ahead of any other wolf in PvP, rivaling sorc wolf.

Conclusion looking at 20 patches in the past: Mobility is clearly strong, but it is also clearly not enough on its own, especially when so much generic mobility has been given to every class over the years. There has been zero adjustments to streak across the past 20 patches, yet sorc has fluctuated from unplayable (when it only had mobility and nothing else) to top tier (due to other areas being given overtuned buffs) despite Streak remaining the same that entire time.

Root cause of the issue: Other players cannot understand or accept that Sorc NEEDS to have that mobility and that the other classes not designed around that mobility should NOT have access to mobility that is even remotely close to Sorc, otherwise something has to give.
Other players cried for years about Sorcs running away to reset the fight like they expect the Sorc to just stand there like a training dummy and just take their damage when the class was clearly not designed for that, so ZOS tried to placate these people by introducing far too many low investment speed/mobility options (on top of the gap closers and CCs that already existed that were effective against Sorc but people just refused to utilize) that were all generically available to every class without understanding why so much generic mobility on top of existing strong soft counter options has only caused balance issues across the entire game (including the desync issues that forced the melee range increase a few years ago).

If Sorc is to be the mobility class relying on escaping/distance to heal up and reset or to try and line up it's multi-GCD combos, it needs to be THE mobility class, not just a mobility class, THE mobility class. That means other classes need to learn to not complain about Sorcs running away because that is the intended design of the class while other classes are designed differently where all of them (with the exception of NB) rely on raw mitigation and healing instead of avoiding damage (NB is supposed to rely on stealth to avoid damage, not speed, as mobility is Sorcerers intended design but this is another topic and one that was made it's own issue in U35 when ZOS gave NB brawler abilities that made every actual brawler class jealous).

The current state of Sorcerer is literally a case of be careful what you (generic "you" not specific person) wish for. Non-sorcs in the past cried about sorcs running away/creating distance to defend itself or try to set up a combo, instead of just standing there like a training dummy, so ZOS caved in and gave everyone options to easily chase down Sorcerers, completely neutering what was supposed to make Sorcerer unique all because non-sorcs refused to even try the existing options. Well something had to give, either the generic speed/mobility options were heavily nerfed back to more balanced values or ZOS heavily restricted access to them (something non-sorcs would never accept) or Sorc had to be given tools to defend itself in close quarters since it could no longer reliably escape/create distance since every class had near capped (or capped) mobility.

Heavy armor/high mitigation/high healing knights should not be able to chase down highly mobile mages. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

Not reading this, Sorc is the undisputed #2 in PvP having a anime showdown with DK in the clouds while the rest of the classes are forced to watch while treading water and half drowning with ankle weights attached to us through the class mastery pvp restrictions like on nb. Come get your nerfs

So let me get this straight. You probably willingly read through Vinny's clearly biased breakdown of Sorc's recent 10 patches (U40-U50) because his stance aligns with yours, but ignore Turtle_Bot's counterargument (which pointed out the 10 patches before U40 where playing Sorc was mostly unfavorable), his agreement that Sorc was top tier for several patches between U40 and U50, and his analysis of the actual problem of the class?

I do not think that is a good way to display to forum lurkers that you are willing to engage in a good-faith argument lol.

Why would anyone want to read through a 500-page novel about how a class performed across a bunch of past patches when we're here to discuss the current state of balance?

It doesn't even make sense to frame the current balance issues through the lens of past balance patches. The balance of U40, U41, or whatever patch you're trying to bring up is completely irrelevant to whether the class is balanced right now. The only balance patch that matters to this discussion is the current one.

If you want to argue that Sorc is balanced in the current patch, then argue that based on the current patch. A 10-patch history lesson doesn't establish that, and bringing up how the class performed months ago doesn't somehow invalidate the issues being discussed today.

Because Vinny brought it up first? Why bring up 10 patches of Sorc doing well while ignoring the 10 patches before those when Sorc did not do well? That's called selective bias and you don't make your case stronger with that lol.

The funny thing is you're not even targetting what causes Sorc to be overperforming. Instead of adjusting the class masteries, you're targetting the skills that never caused any issues until interactions with certain passives exist. Nerfing class masteries would literally solve all these Sorc problems lol

Because Vinny brought it up first? That's your defense?

You're complaining about “selective bias” while selectively deciding which part of the argument you want to talk about. Nobody needs to write a 10-patch dissertation every time they discuss the current balance. The fact that Sorc was weaker 10 patches ago doesn't somehow make its current problems disappear.

And if we're going to start talking about which abilities are “causing” Sorc to overperform, maybe we should start with the elephant in the room: Streak is one of the most overperforming abilities in the game. Pretending the skills themselves are completely irrelevant while pointing at masteries as the one and only source of the problem is just another convenient way to frame the argument.

Also, “just nerf the class masteries and everything is solved” is a pretty impressive oversimplification. If your solution requires pretending the individual abilities and their interactions don't matter, you're not actually identifying the problem—you've just decided what the solution has to be and are working backward from it.

But sure, I'm the one being selective here. lol

hoangdz wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

All of that does sound ridiculous because you're not even making a fair analogy. You're just maxing out the hyperbolic scale to make your case sound convincing. It doesn't. All of those examples involve some of the hardest hitting abilities or ultimates in the game, while Streak itself barely deals 3k crit on a full damage build. Streak literally isn't even an issue in terms of damage, so unless the Sorc follows up with some 40k burst combo, it's at best an annoyance to deal with. I've never felt threatened to be CCed by Streak because I know for a fact the majority of Sorcs cannot 1 shot me after Streaking, but a DK absolutely can.

Like, if you put a Sorc with Streak + Curse + Frag + Contingency next to a DK with Fossilize + HoF + Incinerate + Whip, the DK will always outperform the Sorc because its combo deals more reliable follow up burst damage. It's as simple as that.

Multiple people have already brought up the fact that Streak sets up group kills. Even if the Sorc can’t finish the job, someone else will. Most small-man groups have at least one Sorc for that very reason.

Also, the whataboutism isn’t saving you here. We all know what DK can do. That’s not the conversation we’re having. DK could be capable of killing anyone by pressing one button, and that wouldn’t change the fact that Streak needs to be adjusted.

hoangdz wrote: »

As for my question to Oblivion_Protocol. Yes, high-level players rarely get stunned by blockable CCs because sustain is very easy now and frequent block tapping is extremely forgiving. You will still get CCed, but those are not threatening at all. Why do you think almost no DK uses Reverb Bash now even though it's a pretty good stun? Because it's blockable, and Fossilize exists. So if you make Streak blockable, no good player will use it because it would be completely trash against anyone but newbies.

So, let me get this straight. Streak is one of, if not the best mobility skill in the game, and is a class defining feature, such that you feel the need to defend it with your life. But if it suddenly can’t stun blocking players, it’s trash and no good player will ever use it again? The contradictions just keep coming.

And again with the Dragonknight comparisons. No DK uses Reverberating Bash because of bar space issues and because there are far better options available to it, not because you can block it.

1) Streak doesn't set group kills. There are pull sets for that. Streaking would literally just give free CC immunity for your targets.

2) Any blockable stun is worthless in my eyes and anyone good. I block 80-90% of blockable CCs and so do the people I fight against. Even Fossilize gets dodged all the time by good players. That's why they all run 2h Fear instead lol.

If you nerf Streak, top players will never kill each other. Average and bad players will still die to anything. All this solves is making fights at the top become stalemates while anyone less experienced will still die anyway.

hoangdz wrote: »

1) Streak doesn't set group kills. There are pull sets for that. Streaking would literally just give free CC immunity for your targets.

2) Any blockable stun is worthless in my eyes and anyone good. I block 80-90% of blockable CCs and so do the people I fight against. Even Fossilize gets dodged all the time by good players. That's why they all run 2h Fear instead lol.

If you nerf Streak, top players will never kill each other. Average and bad players will still die to anything. All this solves is making fights at the top become stalemates while anyone less experienced will still die anyway.