Is class balance even possible?

Freelancer_ESO · September 1

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.

I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

People like the idea of balance but, the practicalities of attempting to reach it may not necessarily be popular with some people both outside of ZOS and inside of ZOS.

The easy way to have balanced content is to nerf things that perform too well, to generally follow formulas, and to tweak the formulas when they aren't working.

However, an easy way for ZOS to get people to do their new content in the short term/spend $ on it is to release content that isn't balanced.

Part of the appeal that MMO type games have for parts of their audience is that MMOs offer the opportunity to feel special by letting players gain in power and be more impressive in power than other people by optimizing their build/gearing. Balancing content can limit the amount of gains that players can make in that way and at times can lead to losses in effectiveness.

For example, Subclassing added a fair amount of power creep into the game as players could stack skill lines that all did the same job.

ZOS could have chosen to try to deal with subclassing by moving the passives in the various lines around to try to get the lines into a more even position on the various roles.

That would have potentially avoided needing to consider reworking classes but, that approach would also mean that the effectiveness of everyone that was subclassing to min-max would drop which would make them less successful in PvP and in PvE encounters and some would not be pleased about it to put it mildly.

AdonisJorge · September 1

Balance is possible — a game doesn’t need to be perfect, but it also shouldn’t be atrocious. The main reason for frustration in PvP is the huge gap between the strongest and weakest classes. When one class can deal 20k damage while another struggles to reach 7k, or when one sustains easily while another burns all resources after just five skill casts, the environment becomes unhealthy. I wouldn’t mind if the strongest class were about 20% better than mine in some aspects, but being 80% stronger in almost everything ruins the experience.

In PvE, I don’t really care if an Arcanist deals massive damage while my heavy attack build only reaches 60% of that. At least in medium-difficulty content, like veteran dungeons, it doesn’t bother me. Things might be different in harder PvE content, but I don’t play that often.

Another issue is how certain playstyles, like DoT damage, fall far behind in PvP. That lack of build diversity makes the environment less fun. Personally, I play mostly for enjoyment. Even if I lose, as long as the fight wasn’t a lag fest or full of cheap shots, I’m satisfied. I’d rather lose ten good battles than win one horrible one.

And i have the impression that ZOS is too reactive on their balance adjustments, like they do not have a design behind their decisions. Player base is not fair our right always, sometimes the player base must be ignored and be given what they need and not what they want

Renato90085 · September 2

since subclass and class mastery,now we are in mid way
use op balance op
there pvp post problem is,some class not got they mastery op in pvp,but some is,so they still weak
PvE is actually quite balanced because no class mastery have been nerfed.
the U50 weakest class(maybe is templar)parse still have 160k+,only bad other class 10k-15k and same good with meta subclass
The biggest problem with the Temple is.. class did not benefit from meta(morag tong/Martial damage Traveling Knife/direct banner)

XVestigeXx · September 2

Yes

Class balance is not about which class has the most stat value or op skills, its about making all classes fun to play. Being fun to play requires relative balance but not exact balance in every number.

Frayton · September 2

This is my biggest pet peeve with this game. The devs constantly make wild changes that destroy our builds and progress. It's extremely demoralizing to have that happen non-stop.

I was stunned when they actually stated that this was their core design philosophy and they do it in the name of balance, but it all just seems like out of touch busywork.

We're seeing the outcome of year after year of the unending rollercoaster of changes. Players are just worn out and it look like the powers that be are as well.

Frayton · September 2

Oceanchanter wrote: »

It will never happen because there always will be someone complaining for one reason or another.

Don't put this on the players. Anyone who has had any kind of build experience beyond casual knows where the fault lies.

Wolfchild07 · September 4

A group of one of each class is balanced against a group of one of each class.

However, a group of one of each class will absolutely destroy a group of one of each class as werewolves.

LadyGP · September 4

AI can balance it.

-xcatguy

DoofusMax · September 4

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.

I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

The fundamental problem is very closely tied to concept of classes itself. If all classes were functionally equal in all respects, then there would be no reason to choose one class over another because any class could do what any other class could do and do it as well as any other class. Once you reach the point of there being a class preference, then you're in a state of imbalance.

Hypothetically, if you were to eliminate classes entirely and move to a something like a pure skill system, you still face the need for certain stuff to happen. You need for damage to be inflicted, so either everyone inflicts the same damage or someone does better damage than someone else and you're in a state of imbalance. You need for incoming damage to be mitigated and for players to exercise some control over the flow of battle, so either everyone does that equally well or someone is better at it than someone else and you're in a state of imbalance. You need some method of removing inflicted damage ("healing") and either everyone does that equally well or someone is better at that than someone else and you're in a state of imbalance. The list goes on, but those three are pretty fundamental to all games involving combat.

Next bring in the players who are always looking for a numerical edge, and you get something resembling a meta which seeks to exploit and amplify that edge to the greatest extent possible. Now you're into "one build to rule them all" or something close to it. The only way to combat that problem is to make the current best be less effective (nerfing) or make the "less good" be better (buffing), although both can be done together. And then someone else spends a lot of time looking for the new numerical advantage in the new system and the cycle starts over again.

Vaqual · September 4

DoofusMax wrote: »

And then someone else spends a lot of time looking for the new numerical advantage in the new system and the cycle starts over again.

The really important distinction to make here is that players are asking for reasonable margins, not absolute equality.

ketsparrowhawk · September 4

I believe the META merry-go-round is intentional. Gives people reasons to put new builds together which means playing content to get gear and possibly even spending money in the crownstore for skill lines, skyshards, cosmetics, etc. It also keeps the game feeling fresh. If perfect balance were achieved and never changed again, the game would eventually become stale and boring as there would come a time in which no stone has been unturned. Personally I look forward to the balance changes and the new possibilities that they bring.

Ingenon · September 4

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I believe the META merry-go-round is intentional. Gives people reasons to put new builds together which means playing content to get gear and possibly even spending money in the crownstore for skill lines, skyshards, cosmetics, etc. It also keeps the game feeling fresh. If perfect balance were achieved and never changed again, the game would eventually become stale and boring as there would come a time in which no stone has been unturned. Personally I look forward to the balance changes and the new possibilities that they bring.

I agree with you, the META merry-go-round is intentional.

And I don't want ZOS to stop. I just wish ZOS would make it so that all classes, popular subclass builds, vampire, werewolf were parsing 90 to 100% on the Trial Dummy. Making up numbers, if the meta subclass build parse was 200k DPS, then every class, vampire, werewolf would need to be parsing between 180k and 200k DPS, for every update.

Players in a progression trial group would still be told to change their build every update to the latest meta build. And ZOS would keep changing the meta build every update. But many players could "Play As You Want", at least for PvE.

Luneca · September 4

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I believe the META merry-go-round is intentional. Gives people reasons to put new builds together which means playing content to get gear and possibly even spending money in the crownstore for skill lines, skyshards, cosmetics, etc. It also keeps the game feeling fresh. If perfect balance were achieved and never changed again, the game would eventually become stale and boring as there would come a time in which no stone has been unturned. Personally I look forward to the balance changes and the new possibilities that they bring.

It's part of the content now , so it's going to continue.