LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Also catering to delusional ppl who call everything an exploit or "computerized" (lol) and have no actual idea what is going on is exactly how you roll a game off a cliff

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

The upcoming Update 51 shield changes are a perfect example of what I think is becoming a really unhealthy direction for ESO's PvP balance.

If a mechanic is available to every player, then the baseline assumption should be that every player is allowed to use that mechanic effectively. Balance the mechanic itself if it is too strong — don't arbitrarily make it weaker because someone decided to bring more people.

The scaling shield nerf based on group size is especially difficult to understand. Once you get into the 10–12 player range, you're effectively being told that shielding becomes dramatically less effective simply because you have more people around you.

Why?

...

I'm not sure what the problem is as ball groups have always adapted to virtually every single type of constraint designed to curb their power.

Regarding your argument in general, I think, my 'advice' is you guys need to decide which lane you're in. Because you can't approach this subject claiming how things affect solo players is an appropriate parallel to how things work in a computerized meta group (ie ball group). These two things, that is to say, these two experiences are not the same.

Your computerized meta group has dedicated resources and other set/ability elements that are exploiting the group functionality established by ZOS. That is to say, in part, the computer is basically providing more power to each person than what would normally be available to a regular organized, non-meta group/solo player making decisions without that level of support. See this is why you cannot compare solos or even other organized groups, to fabricated computerized meta groups.

There's just no truth in that comparison. While in group, a ball group member is at notable advantage over everyone else and it shows. I think this is a good start, however, more nerfs and reasonable adjustments need to be made to restore balance between computerized meta groups and the rest of us.

More works needs to be done to protect everyone else from these exploiters. to also ensure the community has confidence and a good understanding that PvP is for everyone and not enabling a few egos and bad actors to continue to abuse the PvP community in so many ways as has gone on for so many years now.

Exploiting = using things that are given to use and useable by the game? Very hot take there. Also, people choose to play solo, and choose to chase around ballgroups. They have no sense of "this fight is not for me, i should go do something i can handle" instead they will just bash their head against a wall and cry that everything is an exploit and just not fair because they cant kill a coordinated group in an MMO where coordinated groups are to be expected and encouraged. And speaking of difference experiences, we do not share the same experience, youre right. We're fighting entire faction stacks, other coordinated groups, guilds with 40 people in one discord call; you have no actual idea what is going on to make sure we dont die to all of those things, all you know is "OMG I CANT KILL THEM, THEYRE TOO STRONG FOR ME AS A SOLO PLAYER SO OBVIOUSLY THEY MUST BE NERFED!!!" which is an unbelievably bottom of the barrel way of thinking about the game.

Valkanos wrote: »

12 vs 8? 2 vs 10? I don't see the problem.

At the Battle of Thermopylae, 300 Spartans stood against a Persian army numbering in the tens of thousands. They knew they were massively outnumbered, yet they fought anyway.
Meanwhile, some ESO players see 11 vs 5 and act like they've just witnessed a war crime. Being outnumbered is part of warfare. It's part of PvP. It's part of the challenge.
If every battle had perfectly equal numbers and perfect balance, it wouldn't be a war.

Vulkunne wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Also catering to delusional ppl who call everything an exploit or "computerized" (lol) and have no actual idea what is going on is exactly how you roll a game off a cliff

I assume this is meant for me. Let me tell you something.

No, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, being an Orc and all. But one more thing I know.

When you begin resorting to personal attacks, ie, calling folks 'delusional' and saying we have no actual idea what is going on, that sends a strong indication that it is you who are frustrated and are losing the argument.

Both others on here as well as myself have played PvP and experienced the wrath of ball group for many years now. The corruption stemming from allowing ball groups to have exclusive power over everyone else has made them hateful, nasty, liars and just a cancer in PvP.

That is not a personal attack. That has been my experience from them when doing the following:

1) Asking for help with a scroll run (ie playing by 'their' rules)
2) Getting rezzed
3) Expecting ball groups to share priorities with the rest of the faction
4) Invite to ball groups and other 'exclusive' groups
5) Getting in general, any meaningful support or even faction reps getting an acknowledgement out of them for anything.
6) PvPing normally with everyone else

You see, ball groups need to fall. Or else, expect Cyrodiil PvP to run the course of New World wars. Because it was all so exclusive no one else outside of their clique could participate.

I will never defend anyone who has abused both my time, as well as others to such an extent, especially when they are very clearly in the wrong from the very beginning.

Vulkunne wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Also catering to delusional ppl who call everything an exploit or "computerized" (lol) and have no actual idea what is going on is exactly how you roll a game off a cliff

I assume this is meant for me. Let me tell you something.

No, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, being an Orc and all. But one more thing I know.

When you begin resorting to personal attacks, ie, calling folks 'delusional' and saying we have no actual idea what is going on, that sends a strong indication that it is you who are frustrated and are losing the argument.

Both others on here as well as myself have played PvP and experienced the wrath of ball group for many years now. The corruption stemming from allowing ball groups to have exclusive power over everyone else has made them hateful, nasty, liars and just a cancer in PvP.

That is not a personal attack. That has been my experience from them when doing the following:

1) Asking for help with a scroll run (ie playing by 'their' rules)
2) Getting rezzed
3) Expecting ball groups to share priorities with the rest of the faction
4) Invite to ball groups and other 'exclusive' groups
5) Getting in general, any meaningful support or even faction reps getting an acknowledgement out of them for anything.
6) PvPing normally with everyone else

You see, ball groups need to fall. Or else, expect Cyrodiil PvP to run the course of New World wars. Because it was all so exclusive no one else outside of their clique could participate.

I will never defend anyone who has abused both my time, as well as others to such an extent, especially when they are very clearly in the wrong from the very beginning.

Again, don't waste your time. That person knows the problem, knows the end result of this current iteration of ball groups continuing for years. (no one left to play), and is not trying to have an honest conversation at all.

There is a world where the top ball groups can still exist (and still be the top) but the skill gap/dmg gap is compressed slightly so they aren't as top tier.

Example - instead of it taking 30-40 people chasing the top ball groups for 20-30 minutes around a keep to kill them (and they only really wipe because one of them got knocked out).. maybe it takes the same 30-40 only 10 minutes now.

No one is saying ball groups shouldn't exist flat out (and if they are thats the wrong mindset IMO go play vengence).. but I do think if we are truly being honest the current state of ball groups with the shielding scaling off of health, the stacking of it, etc, it's almost impossible to kill some of these top groups. You never see their health move but for a millisecond and when it does it's instantlly covered up again with endless shields. They don't wipe because you got their health down.. they wipe because one got pulled to far so shields dropped, one got knocked out, etc.

No one can say this is healthy for the longevity of Cyro. You're already having people just log out when certain groups show up because of how annoying/near impossible to kill they are.

Sure, you can say get good..skill issue... but if you expect the 85% of PvPers that make up and carry PvP games to be as good as the top 5%.. well then also expect to have a dead game that the top 5% can'y enjoy anymore. They will just go to the next mmo, grief,troll and farm casuals.. and the cycle repeats itself.

Every single game has had a problem like ESO is having now. The ones that decided to deal with it.. are mostly still around. The ones that didn't died.. .and there are countless examples of the top 5% killing their own game they loved.

So yeah, keep screaming skill issue.. get good.. you're just mad you died. You're damn right, people are mad they died.. and they are mad there is pretty much nothing 30-40 people attacking a group of 8-12 can do about it. If you think thats good game mechanics and makes for a healthy game... you don't understand the even simplest game design philosophy.

Yes balance around group since because that is 100% the problem. While we are at it.. go even harder against it.

- xCatGuy

Thanks for sharing your observations as well, I do believe your posts are both meaningful and of real value.

That said, I share your appraisal of the situation however please understand, I am doing this as like a matter of record. The message has been delivered. clarity has been provided; I have provided my 'testimony' to the jury. That is what this is as I am not the judge and have no authority to fix the problems at hand, yet I have a responsibility, that I feel the need to provide my evidence. As you too are probably aware, many probably share a similar opinion yet won't speak up.

At this point, it seems not enough has or ever will be done. I just owe it to myself as well as others I've engaged with to represent their feelings but it's an awkward situation when they will not speak up, so I agree with you on that. If those who can do what is right won't, then at least I have ok. It's not all about me either but when you have this level of blatant unapologetic corruption and knowing what they think about everyone else, it's in everyone's best interest to resist and bite because they can't be reasoned with and no one it seems is willing to do the right thing anymore.

Lastly, regarding myself, too often in this game, I have had some rather 'harsh' feelings leveled at me for things less than this. For telling jokes even. Some know what I mean. And that on a personal level, just gets at me because they can login and exploit and play the role and get away with so much, promoting themselves at everyone else's expense, yet I've been here for years, a strong solo player held in contempt for the crime of being myself and not falling in line like a good little lemming to hold someone's ego on a pedestal. I come from old ESO and none of this was going on back then. It wasn't ok then what happened now? Where are the pillars of the community here to move their own version of this argument forward? Where are they? And the answer is the ball groupers are their 'friends' so that makes that ok.

End of the day, I offer them no apology and if it's just me and a few others standing up to this type of corruption then so be it. If it gets fixed, great but my opinion will never change and their opinion and hateful way of doing will also never change as long as they can keep getting away with it. If that classifies me as an R word or um lol whatever then help yourselves cause some of you out there have not heard the truth in so long it must sting like the fire from a thousand suns.

RedMamba wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

The upcoming Update 51 shield changes are a perfect example of what I think is becoming a really unhealthy direction for ESO's PvP balance.

If a mechanic is available to every player, then the baseline assumption should be that every player is allowed to use that mechanic effectively. Balance the mechanic itself if it is too strong — don't arbitrarily make it weaker because someone decided to bring more people.

The scaling shield nerf based on group size is especially difficult to understand. Once you get into the 10–12 player range, you're effectively being told that shielding becomes dramatically less effective simply because you have more people around you.

Why?

Those players aren't exploiting some external system. They're using abilities and mechanics that the game explicitly gives them. If shields are too strong, then nerf shields. If a particular interaction is broken, fix that interaction. But creating a separate ruleset where a mechanic becomes increasingly ineffective depending on how many people are grouped together is a terrible precedent.

And it creates an absolutely bizarre balance situation.

A group of 4–9 players could potentially become more effective and harder to kill than a full 12-player group, simply because the larger group is being subjected to stronger scaling penalties.

Think about how backwards that is.

You could have 12 coordinated players fighting a smaller group of 6 or 7. The 12-player group has more people, more damage, more healing, more resources and more potential coordination — yet because of artificial group-size scaling, they can have a harder time surviving and a harder time killing the smaller group.

Meanwhile, the smaller group gets to use those same mechanics more effectively.

So the larger group is simultaneously less effective defensively while still being the larger target.

And then you're potentially creating situations where the smaller group has an easier time killing the larger group than the larger group has killing them.

How does that make sense?

If the goal is to discourage large groups from overwhelming smaller groups, this isn't necessarily accomplishing that. You're just creating a situation where the optimal group size becomes some arbitrary number below the maximum.

Why would 8 players be entitled to significantly better functionality than 12?

Why should the game encourage players to split a group into smaller groups purely to avoid mechanical penalties?

That's not addressing the underlying balance problem. It's incentivizing players to manipulate group size.

And this is where the inconsistency becomes even more obvious.

How is it reasonable that a solo player can use Magma Shell and become effectively immortal against a coordinated 12-player group, while that same solo player can potentially use an overtuned DK leap-bomb setup and instantly wipe or devastate that entire group?

What exactly is the balance philosophy there?

If the argument is that large groups shouldn't be able to overwhelm individual players, then why is it acceptable for individual players to have mechanics that can completely invalidate a large group?

You can't have it both ways.

A 12-player group isn't automatically abusing the game simply because it has 12 players. Coordinating that many people, positioning correctly, communicating, maintaining buffs, managing resources, and actually functioning as a group is itself a gameplay investment. If there are mechanics that make organized groups too powerful, then those mechanics should be addressed directly.

Don't punish the player for taking advantage of a system the game intentionally put at their disposal.

And if ZOS is going to start balancing mechanics around "group size," then they need to actually consider what group size means in ESO.

Because a 12-player group isn't necessarily 12 isolated people.

There are plenty of large "zerg guilds" where multiple full groups are communicating together in the same Discord call. You can have three full 12-player groups — roughly 36 players — operating together, communicating targets, coordinating pushes, and synchronizing abilities.

There are groups that do exactly this.

And some of these groups can coordinate things like repeated Negate usage and other extremely powerful group mechanics across multiple parties.

So what exactly is the meaningful distinction here?

If ZOS is concerned about the power of a coordinated 12-player group, then why would the solution be to disproportionately nerf mechanics for that one group size while ignoring the fact that multiple 12-player groups can operate as one larger coordinated force?

If three groups are effectively functioning as a single 36-player organization because they're all communicating in the same Discord, then the problem clearly isn't as simple as "12 people in a group = bad."

You can't solve a coordination problem by looking exclusively at the number displayed in someone's group roster.

And that's why I think the philosophy behind these changes needs to be reconsidered.

Balance needs to be for ALL players.

Not just 12-man groups.

Not just solo players.

Not just small groups.

And certainly not based on whichever group of players happens to complain the loudest on the forums.

There is a huge difference between saying:

"This mechanic is too strong and needs to be nerfed."

and saying:

"I can't solo kill a coordinated group of players, therefore that group needs to be mechanically nerfed."

The second argument is ridiculous.

Of course you can't necessarily solo kill a coordinated group.

They're coordinated. That's the entire point of grouping.

You shouldn't be entitled to kill a competent group of players simply because you're playing solo. If someone wants to play solo, that's completely fine. But the game shouldn't be redesigned around the expectation that a solo player must have a reasonable chance of killing a coordinated group simply because they don't want to group themselves.

Likewise, a coordinated group shouldn't be punished for coordinating.

If shields are too strong, nerf shields.

If Magma Shell is too strong, address Magma Shell.

If DK leap-bomb is too strong, fix DK leap-bomb.

If Negate stacking is too powerful, address Negate stacking.

If a particular interaction is broken, fix the interaction.

But don't take a perfectly functional mechanic and arbitrarily make it worse because more players are using it.

This is also why I think the direction of these changes is a slippery slope.

Today it's shields and group size.

Tomorrow it could be another perfectly legitimate mechanic that gets artificially weakened because a certain number of players are using it together.

Eventually we're not balancing abilities anymore. We're balancing around the complaints of whoever is most upset about losing to them.

And that's a dangerous way to design a PvP game.

The loudest players on the forums shouldn't determine balance simply by complaining the most frequently. PvP is complicated. There are interactions, counters, builds, coordination, positioning, resource management and a huge number of variables that don't show up in a simple "this killed me, therefore it's broken" argument.

If something is genuinely overpowered, nerf the thing.

Don't create increasingly convoluted restrictions based on whether someone is solo, in a small group, or in a large group.

ESO should have a consistent ruleset where players are encouraged to understand the systems, build around them, and use them intelligently. If a mechanic is available to everyone, players shouldn't be penalized for learning how to exploit its strengths within the rules of the game.

Otherwise, we're going to end up with a PvP environment where the answer to every balance problem is simply:

"You used this mechanic with too many people, so now it doesn't really work."

That's not good balance.

That's just putting artificial limitations on gameplay instead of fixing the underlying problems, just because some people who don't even understand the game won't stop complaining that a coordinated group is killing them when they aren't putting in even nearly half the effort to learn the mechanics of the game themselves.

Balance the mechanics, not the number of people using them. And stop penalizing the players who actually put the most time and investment into learning and mastering your game's systems.

The severe penalties should start at 4 and not 12 actually for group shields. That's the new ball group size 4-6 players.

ceruulean wrote: »

ZOS would have to do a battle spirit renovation at this point. If they cared about competitive integrity then they would disallow group buff sets. In other games like Overwatch, League, and CSGO all group buffs are player actions that needs a button pressed, not static passive gear buffs for just existing. Most of the time nobody has a group buff if they're off to the side skirmishing. The advantage of being in a coordinated group is already an advantage without mathematical increases from gear. Also most of the group buffs have a cooldown or limitation in those games.

It should be the same in ESO. Either make group shields scale off magicka/stamina (build limitation) or give them a cooldown. Since ESO players love their builds so much, the option to build a shielder who is squishy with less HP makes the most sense. Otherwise the game is currently a joke with infinite sustain, how some classes have no cooldowns nor limitations, and why nobody enjoys unbalanced pvp.

I actually kinda agree with OP, that arbitrarily nerfing things based on group size is the wrong way to go about it. The base skills themselves need a mechanics overhaul. And devs should answer the question: should group buff sets should be stackable in this day and age? Right now groups already have a leg up through natural behavior. The game rewards grouping becaus buff skills can be shared more efficiently. Should sets provide yet a 3rd layer of advantage? I don't think so.

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).

@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)

People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.

Things to change:

1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)

For the small-scale groups in the example you gave, you are barely affected by the current version of the shield nerfs in the first place. The meaningful penalties only start becoming significant as group size increases, so using casual small-scale groups as the main argument against group-based shield scaling is pretty misleading.

Agreed. Most PUGS aren’t running strict comped builds with a dedicated shielder in their group let alone all of them running their own shield. Some PUGS may be affected but not in the way ballgroups will be

yes nerf things just because pugs cant figure out how to use them too!!!!! omg why didnt they think of this earlier!!!

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).

@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)

People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.

Things to change:

1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)

Thank you, but group scaling shouldnt be a thing period. If group scaling is going to be a thing, why is even playing in groups allowed? Just as a consolation? This is an MMO, not a 1 on 1 fighter game. Many people play explicitly FOR the group coordination and optimization. What is the point of attempting any of that if people want to say it shouldn't be allowed? Why should healers not be able to play the game... and uh heal people in their group?

Also people keep making discussions about shields scaling off hp; well what should they scale off of? Offensive stats? Then you just have 90% of cyrodiil being unkillable magsorcs who also 2 shot you. Which one do you want? The 50k hp tank who cant do anything but stand there, or the 10k spell damage sorc who also is spamming 40k hardened wards on itself?

I'm only seeing a lot of people basically just complain that people play in groups and that it shouldn't be allowed, which in this type of game is just such a nonsensical argument.

It’s not about group play “not being allowed.” You’re just wrong about what people are actually arguing for.

Yes, some people play Cyrodiil specifically for group coordination and optimization, but plenty of people don’t—in fact, most players aren’t running around in optimized 12-man groups. Cyrodiil has to be enjoyable for those players too.

The proposed changes also aren’t suddenly going to make ball groups incapable of farming unoptimized pugs. You’ll still be stronger, you’ll still have the advantages of communication, composition, support sets, ult coordination, healing, movement, target selection, and everything else that comes with organized play. So if part of the appeal is inflating your ego by smurfing unoptimized pugs, don’t worry—you’ll still be able to do that. The difference is that the gap might finally become a little less absurd.

And if your group is actually half decent, you should be completely fine. Judging by your negate thread, though, where you were complaining about counterplay while playing inside a 12-man ball group, I can understand why you feel so strongly about anything that reduces that advantage.

That’s the whole point: Cyrodiil has to be fun for everyone, not just you and not just highly optimized groups. Group coordination should give you an advantage. It just shouldn’t give you such an overwhelming, multiplicative advantage that the majority of the campaign population exists primarily as content for organized groups to farm.

"most people are bad, so youre not allowed to be good, or the bad players will quit!!!!" omg oh noooo!!!!

What a weirdly out of touch comment. The entire idea behind ballgrouping is to build the most egregious possible numerical advantage for your group, in practice it just enables mid tier players to use coordination to become immortal. It isn't just limited to ballgroups obviously, but when the build / composition gap becomes so large that much better players cant touch these ball groups unless they also build a ball group, its a design choice that makes Cyrodiil offputting to basically everyone who doesn't want to play this build carried playstyle. As for newer players trying to learn the ropes, they'll just quit.
PvP should be decided by skill, not by build/composition advantage, keep that *** in PvE.

it should be both, its an MMORPG not Mortal Kombat lmao. [snip]

so far i still only see super special 1vx youtubers mad they cant solo kill a coordinated group, out of touch people calling playing in groups an "exploit" and groups of 4 players are "ballgroups", or people saying that its not feasible that an uncoordinated zerg spamming lightning heavies at a comped group who is also utiziling LoS is barely doing damage to them!!! [snip]

again, Im saying shields DO need nerfed, but they have a place in surviving coordinated burst (which pugs and randoms and zergs lack, which is why you cant kill ballgroups, not because theyre "exploiting" or using group sets) and saying that an 8 man is now going to have an easier time bursting down a 12 while the 12 is going to have a much harder time doing it to the smaller group, or that some full damage dk leap bomber can now solo wipe a coordinated 12 man is absolutely asinine

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it