madmufffin wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm not even going to lie to you in that this is the opposite end of the spectrum and there would still be egregious disparity between certain classes based on their masteries.

Could you imagine NB with 2,000 scaling wep/spell damage AND 25% crit damage and healing? This wouldn't benefit a brawler blade nearly as much as your 'run of the mill' ganker; you'd just be nearly 1-shot/2-shot from stealth by any NB with Hunding's Rage or greater for gear. Templar's massive flat damage would just encourage building tankiness to allow the flat damage and easy-to-access damage buffs carry the damage to levels where no trade was possible.

Or Necro or Arcanist's - 20% increased damage and 30% increased damage respectively.

Yeah, no.

This is why we should be balancing with a chisel; a 'thought experiment' like this goes to show that sweeping, thoughtless number changes create more problems than they solve.

You know, I see you complain a lot about Werewolf and how much you don't want it nerfed, and Werewolf is in one of the most obnoxious states it has ever been so much so that its on the same spectrum as GrimHallows broken WW from 6 years ago. Now I propose we buff up the garbage classes nobody trying to be competitive use, and you say its too much? How can you go and advocate for WW generally staying like it is on live and then poo poo this idea to buff up the other classes instead of nerfing your stuff?

I feel like I can't win, whether I propose nerfs to the top classes, or buffs to the lower classes, everyone just genuinely wants DK WW and Sorc to be the meta forever with nothing to challenge it or be anywhere near as good as them.

Sorc doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, DK doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, why should NB or any of these other classes? Necro's main problem is a lack of damage, Templar lacks damage, NB has the most predictable combos and therefore has to rely on things like onslaught and gorethief instead of class combos. DK does more damage than NB anyway and sorc does the same amount if not more except at range and with an unblockable undodgeable stun. As it stands people are not even using above and beyond and slotting nocturnals inspiriation for the extra ult to dump into balorgh which is pathetic. The eye for explotation CM is a PvE CM and doesn't even do anything in PvP 90% of the time.

And if they come into live overtuned, they have shown they have the ability to quickly push out a fix to pull back anything egregious. RIP my homie signet. Let the classes come in at full power and see what actually is broken and not just what is an outlier on the stupid spreadsheet.

Exactly

I have a new forum post idea: Delete all classes except DK, Sorc, and WW in PvP and buff those three 3000% in every stat

Its what the people want obviously

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm not even going to lie to you in that this is the opposite end of the spectrum and there would still be egregious disparity between certain classes based on their masteries.

Could you imagine NB with 2,000 scaling wep/spell damage AND 25% crit damage and healing? This wouldn't benefit a brawler blade nearly as much as your 'run of the mill' ganker; you'd just be nearly 1-shot/2-shot from stealth by any NB with Hunding's Rage or greater for gear. Templar's massive flat damage would just encourage building tankiness to allow the flat damage and easy-to-access damage buffs carry the damage to levels where no trade was possible.

Or Necro or Arcanist's - 20% increased damage and 30% increased damage respectively.

Yeah, no.

This is why we should be balancing with a chisel; a 'thought experiment' like this goes to show that sweeping, thoughtless number changes create more problems than they solve.

You know, I see you complain a lot about Werewolf and how much you don't want it nerfed, and Werewolf is in one of the most obnoxious states it has ever been so much so that its on the same spectrum as GrimHallows broken WW from 6 years ago. Now I propose we buff up the garbage classes nobody trying to be competitive use, and you say its too much? How can you go and advocate for WW generally staying like it is on live and then poo poo this idea to buff up the other classes instead of nerfing your stuff?

I feel like I can't win, whether I propose nerfs to the top classes, or buffs to the lower classes, everyone just genuinely wants DK WW and Sorc to be the meta forever with nothing to challenge it or be anywhere near as good as them.

Sorc doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, DK doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, why should NB or any of these other classes? Necro's main problem is a lack of damage, Templar lacks damage, NB has the most predictable combos and therefore has to rely on things like onslaught and gorethief instead of class combos. DK does more damage than NB anyway and sorc does the same amount if not more except at range and with an unblockable undodgeable stun. As it stands people are not even using above and beyond and slotting nocturnals inspiriation for the extra ult to dump into balorgh which is pathetic. The eye for explotation CM is a PvE CM and doesn't even do anything in PvP 90% of the time.

I am getting sick and tired of these forums.

@Wuuffyy has acknowledged that Werewolf is overperforming on multiple occasions.

Pushing back on an idea to full send ESO further into a broken state, isn’t part of some grand scheme to keep everyone else out of the fun.

I’m of the mind that we shouldn’t have Class Mastery at all in PvP. Why should a ‘pure’ Templar be stronger than a Templar using Living Death instead of Restoring Light?

These Class Reworks were designed to diversify skill lines into multiple roles, which will fix balance altogether, these Mastery passives are a step too far, and in the wrong direction entirely, especially when considering that Dragonknight has access to them.

If class masteries should be removed, so should subclassing

Had to laugh out loud at that one.

Why is that? Because you feel that way? It is objectively worse for the game having them in post-rework, than it is not having them in, while Subclassing balances itself out post-rework.

Simply removing the Battle Spirit restriction on Masteries that should not exist, would only force people away from Subclassing further, in a state of the game that already discourages the system.

Correct, but not because of me only, but the (possibly slim) majority of the playerbase too. Subclassing in its current form was a huge mistake objectively. It shouldn't be in the game and is why a huge amount of people stopped playing because there was no class identity left anymore in this RPGmmo. Ultimately it doesn't matter what you individually think or what I think, only the masses. And over half of them hate it and the other lesser half seem to love it. I am simply saying if we aren't going to nerf the top overperforming pure classes, then we should at least remove the shackles from the bottom performers.

If you want to talk about subclassing I am of the opinion it should have at minimum been limited to only one skill line that could be subclassed and probably further alterations too

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm not even going to lie to you in that this is the opposite end of the spectrum and there would still be egregious disparity between certain classes based on their masteries.

Could you imagine NB with 2,000 scaling wep/spell damage AND 25% crit damage and healing? This wouldn't benefit a brawler blade nearly as much as your 'run of the mill' ganker; you'd just be nearly 1-shot/2-shot from stealth by any NB with Hunding's Rage or greater for gear. Templar's massive flat damage would just encourage building tankiness to allow the flat damage and easy-to-access damage buffs carry the damage to levels where no trade was possible.

Or Necro or Arcanist's - 20% increased damage and 30% increased damage respectively.

Yeah, no.

This is why we should be balancing with a chisel; a 'thought experiment' like this goes to show that sweeping, thoughtless number changes create more problems than they solve.

You know, I see you complain a lot about Werewolf and how much you don't want it nerfed, and Werewolf is in one of the most obnoxious states it has ever been so much so that its on the same spectrum as GrimHallows broken WW from 6 years ago. Now I propose we buff up the garbage classes nobody trying to be competitive use, and you say its too much? How can you go and advocate for WW generally staying like it is on live and then poo poo this idea to buff up the other classes instead of nerfing your stuff?

I feel like I can't win, whether I propose nerfs to the top classes, or buffs to the lower classes, everyone just genuinely wants DK WW and Sorc to be the meta forever with nothing to challenge it or be anywhere near as good as them.

Sorc doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, DK doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, why should NB or any of these other classes? Necro's main problem is a lack of damage, Templar lacks damage, NB has the most predictable combos and therefore has to rely on things like onslaught and gorethief instead of class combos. DK does more damage than NB anyway and sorc does the same amount if not more except at range and with an unblockable undodgeable stun. As it stands people are not even using above and beyond and slotting nocturnals inspiriation for the extra ult to dump into balorgh which is pathetic. The eye for explotation CM is a PvE CM and doesn't even do anything in PvP 90% of the time.

I am getting sick and tired of these forums.

@Wuuffyy has acknowledged that Werewolf is overperforming on multiple occasions.

Pushing back on an idea to full send ESO further into a broken state, isn’t part of some grand scheme to keep everyone else out of the fun.

I’m of the mind that we shouldn’t have Class Mastery at all in PvP. Why should a ‘pure’ Templar be stronger than a Templar using Living Death instead of Restoring Light?

These Class Reworks were designed to diversify skill lines into multiple roles, which will fix balance altogether, these Mastery passives are a step too far, and in the wrong direction entirely, especially when considering that Dragonknight has access to them.

If class masteries should be removed, so should subclassing

Had to laugh out loud at that one.

Why is that? Because you feel that way? It is objectively worse for the game having them in post-rework, than it is not having them in, while Subclassing balances itself out post-rework.

Simply removing the Battle Spirit restriction on Masteries that should not exist, would only force people away from Subclassing further, in a state of the game that already discourages the system.

Subclassing was a mistake and poorly implemented. Removing the system would be acceptable let alone just encouraging pure clashing.

Radiate77 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm not even going to lie to you in that this is the opposite end of the spectrum and there would still be egregious disparity between certain classes based on their masteries.

Could you imagine NB with 2,000 scaling wep/spell damage AND 25% crit damage and healing? This wouldn't benefit a brawler blade nearly as much as your 'run of the mill' ganker; you'd just be nearly 1-shot/2-shot from stealth by any NB with Hunding's Rage or greater for gear. Templar's massive flat damage would just encourage building tankiness to allow the flat damage and easy-to-access damage buffs carry the damage to levels where no trade was possible.

Or Necro or Arcanist's - 20% increased damage and 30% increased damage respectively.

Yeah, no.

This is why we should be balancing with a chisel; a 'thought experiment' like this goes to show that sweeping, thoughtless number changes create more problems than they solve.

You know, I see you complain a lot about Werewolf and how much you don't want it nerfed, and Werewolf is in one of the most obnoxious states it has ever been so much so that its on the same spectrum as GrimHallows broken WW from 6 years ago. Now I propose we buff up the garbage classes nobody trying to be competitive use, and you say its too much? How can you go and advocate for WW generally staying like it is on live and then poo poo this idea to buff up the other classes instead of nerfing your stuff?

I feel like I can't win, whether I propose nerfs to the top classes, or buffs to the lower classes, everyone just genuinely wants DK WW and Sorc to be the meta forever with nothing to challenge it or be anywhere near as good as them.

Sorc doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, DK doesn't get CM restrictions in PvP, why should NB or any of these other classes? Necro's main problem is a lack of damage, Templar lacks damage, NB has the most predictable combos and therefore has to rely on things like onslaught and gorethief instead of class combos. DK does more damage than NB anyway and sorc does the same amount if not more except at range and with an unblockable undodgeable stun. As it stands people are not even using above and beyond and slotting nocturnals inspiriation for the extra ult to dump into balorgh which is pathetic. The eye for explotation CM is a PvE CM and doesn't even do anything in PvP 90% of the time.

I am getting sick and tired of these forums.

@Wuuffyy has acknowledged that Werewolf is overperforming on multiple occasions.

Pushing back on an idea to full send ESO further into a broken state, isn’t part of some grand scheme to keep everyone else out of the fun.

I’m of the mind that we shouldn’t have Class Mastery at all in PvP. Why should a ‘pure’ Templar be stronger than a Templar using Living Death instead of Restoring Light?

These Class Reworks were designed to diversify skill lines into multiple roles, which will fix balance altogether, these Mastery passives are a step too far, and in the wrong direction entirely, especially when considering that Dragonknight has access to them.

If class masteries should be removed, so should subclassing

Had to laugh out loud at that one.

Why is that? Because you feel that way? It is objectively worse for the game having them in post-rework, than it is not having them in, while Subclassing balances itself out post-rework.

Simply removing the Battle Spirit restriction on Masteries that should not exist, would only force people away from Subclassing further, in a state of the game that already discourages the system.

Subclassing was a mistake and poorly implemented. Removing the system would be acceptable let alone just encouraging pure clashing.

Acceptable for who? We’ve had several polls showing that Subclass haters make up the minority.

There are more of us who refuse to accept the walkback, need evidence of that? Check the charts.

Wow a poll on the forums showed that a primarily PVP group enjoyed monstrous power creep? That's crazy. By that same logic, go take a gander at what happened in the endgame PVE community, which points directly to the contrary of your poll. Also, if we really want to bring subclassing into the equation, you can get the benefit of NB's supposedly broken crit mastery with subclassing alone. Why should it be nerfed off the face of the planet for PVP because it'll "be broken". I'm sure the math checks out similarly for Necro's mastery as well. 30% on arc is a pretty ludicrous number to recreate through subclassing, but the class is so bad it doesn't even matter anyways. Judgement Brand is a unique one, but the opportunity cost of losing Devout Guardian or Bright Harbinger along with the mastery being directly reduced by all means of mitigation means it most likely isn't an issue to begin with even at full power.

I call for nerfs on the top classes = DK, WW and Sorc
I get nonstop whining and complaining about how we only nerf things
I propose we unshackle the bottom 5 classes and allow them their full power through their class masteries
I get instant pushback and complaints that this would be too powerful meanwhile DK is roleplaying Sauron in PVP

There is no winning, literally just stop playing eso if you aren't on a dk or a sorc next patch

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I’m really split on Judgements Brand. I really feel like it would be too much at max value. Also Above and Beyond does nothing to solve any of nighblades problems and just makes the even better at killing bad players which they don’t need.

Templar is trash, let them be good. Look at dk and sorc! why do we have to agonize over buffs to the garbage classes while dk and sorc exist??

Same thing with nb, and I assure you, 20% extra crit damage would help NBs kill good players. It would just eat through rallying cry and make them actually good at what they are supposed to do at all levels. As it stands Above and beyond is being dropped for nocturnals inspiritation cause it gives about 1.0 more ult per tick which helps with balorgh which is just pathetic

how is 100k dps on the most easy rotation known to many without weaving knowledge or light attacking classed anywhere near to a trash class, comparing it against 160 dps that is not needed anywhere around the board or in to balance pvp is not a good enough argument to describle such an enjoyable class as trash. i dont tank with templar but as damage and healing they are really good and mostly alot of fun to play when your not chasing the meta
if people were not understanding when grouped with (some, and sometimes) others chasing the meta, some groups would be so unenjoyable that even more people would stop logging in than already have and that alot of eso's population, but most importantly alot of peoples friends they have met onling while playing eso for years, even back in the day when strangers were friendly and showing us the ropes in vet dungeons while doing 20k dps a person talked trash about dops then they went in the block list (forever) ask me and i would say the introduction of single player copies or 4 person content says it all about what happened in random finder, play your own way ? right ! believe it when i see it
i am not skilled but skilled templars do insane damage in pve

This is for pvp

yes of which effects pve, and not in a good way, so defending our templars here may make others thing when asking for silly things again in the future, when a remedy for all the latest debacles have been seen

What are you talking about? this is about removing the restriction pvp has. Pve already does the full dmg, I want them to do full dmg in pvp too. They halve it down to 700 in pvp instead of the normal 1400

i am just making a note not getting unhinged friend my suggestions (ignored) have been to not mix pvp and pve in any way

I think there is some language barrier here because nothing you are saying is making any sense. The changes I am proposing will not effect PvE at all. It is only for PvP.

must be the eso language cos my english is my main

Could have fooled me. Go back and read the original post, it was very clearly stated to be talking about the removal of the 'halved in pvp' addendum that some of the weaker classes have for their masteries. You misread.

fair enough, must have fooled you then.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Zos, please, I am begging you, removing these restrictions in pvp would help so much and buff up the lower end like everyone wants. None of these class masteries are enough to beat out DK or Sorc, if anything maybe one or two of the classes would be on par with sorc.

The values are not that much of a crazy buff as people think. Necro and Arc it is literally a difference of 15% more damage on the least played classes. Templar and NB are a bit harder to quantify in a short pithy paragraph but suffice to say Templar should be fully un shackled and NB too. But if people are really so worried about nb then just make it 15% crit damage and 1500 wpn dmg and 20 seconds on the dodge CM's unique 5%. Or just rework the crit dmg one to be some sort of a fear/stun or a proc for burst damage to make NB combos better. Or heck, just change it to 6k pen or something. 6k pen is 9% damage increase

Bottom line, unshackling the bottom classes would breathe some life into pvp and help with balance

The problem with doing it at all is that no one can answer a simple question: how much weight should a class mastery be in a build?

Because they are not balanced from the start, the answer is not an obvious one. And that means that there will be lots of situations where the unpredictable happens even if it only looks like a small number adjustment.

Masteries should have focused on closing a class' weakpoints, which is exactly what subclassing allows anyone building to do, and contributing a small but noticeable amount.

instead in some cases they define the class now (Sorc, DK) and in other cases they have no purpose or real effect in actual combat (NB).

When things vary that much, it's not that simple to just make changes. And that's before we get into specific sets and builds.

Flat damage/healing /sustain increases are bad vs. a utility function or effect that can be used in a strategic or otherwise limited fashion because it just adds powercreep and then necessitates rebalancing down the line. It also opens up build possibilities that weren't possible before, which can be both a good and bad thing.

For NB, I don't like the masteries. And I don't like them because they have no real effect on combat and less value than subclassing. Shadow skill line in NB is worthless besides Cloak, and with it losing value after getting a working counter + fix for all instances of damage hitting crit if you time it right out of stealth, there's zero reason for me to stay a pure NB versus subclassing.

NB's damage has fallen compared to other options, yes, but more than that the class lacks any real defensive option besides roll and block once you strip cloak. And that lack of defensive options along with lower damage (as a pure class NB), means that the rest of the class better be compelling or there's no reason to be an NB.

Some will find the cloak/invis mechanic to be a compelling offer even after the nerfs. Some will move to a ranged spammable damage/heal on NB that will definitely get adjusted later down the line and claim that NB is back. But the reality is that even the changes published there aren't enough to make the class compelling beyond a limited set of builds that will just oppress the bottom classes in PvP and still not pose a threat to the top.

The lack of skill being a factor in current and previous patches over the years has been deterimental to the game. The cutting of "trick play" and all skills and abilities that stopped players from simply being able to rush in your face and kill you has actually harmed NB and it's identity more than anything else in the game because it was designed to be evasive and exploit that kind of play.

Moving to a direct damage stats-based combat focus also didn't help the class and is part of the reason why no amount of buffing can help it beyond adding over 9000 wd/sd, which still may not matter because everything is countered by the roll button.

Unlike Sorc there's no tool to lock down anyone at a range, the scribed options are inferior as well. And that's just the start of the problems to be honest. I mean anyone playing NB knows how bad the class is once you encounter a block holder. You need to cut your defense for damage or you can't sustain (similar to Templar, Necro, Arcanist), or cut your damage and you can't kill anyone.

But the blocking DK can and will just leap at you and you're done anyway. You get close to use fear? You're petrified and you're done. When that's the case, will a mastery really solve the problem? I don't think so to be honest.

It will open up some builds, but it won't have any effect in reality. And then PvE will become an issue and get it nerfed.

Luneca wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Zos, please, I am begging you, removing these restrictions in pvp would help so much and buff up the lower end like everyone wants. None of these class masteries are enough to beat out DK or Sorc, if anything maybe one or two of the classes would be on par with sorc.

The values are not that much of a crazy buff as people think. Necro and Arc it is literally a difference of 15% more damage on the least played classes. Templar and NB are a bit harder to quantify in a short pithy paragraph but suffice to say Templar should be fully un shackled and NB too. But if people are really so worried about nb then just make it 15% crit damage and 1500 wpn dmg and 20 seconds on the dodge CM's unique 5%. Or just rework the crit dmg one to be some sort of a fear/stun or a proc for burst damage to make NB combos better. Or heck, just change it to 6k pen or something. 6k pen is 9% damage increase

Bottom line, unshackling the bottom classes would breathe some life into pvp and help with balance

The problem with doing it at all is that no one can answer a simple question: how much weight should a class mastery be in a build?

Because they are not balanced from the start, the answer is not an obvious one. And that means that there will be lots of situations where the unpredictable happens even if it only looks like a small number adjustment.

Masteries should have focused on closing a class' weakpoints, which is exactly what subclassing allows anyone building to do, and contributing a small but noticeable amount.

instead in some cases they define the class now (Sorc, DK) and in other cases they have no purpose or real effect in actual combat (NB).

When things vary that much, it's not that simple to just make changes. And that's before we get into specific sets and builds.

Flat damage/healing /sustain increases are bad vs. a utility function or effect that can be used in a strategic or otherwise limited fashion because it just adds powercreep and then necessitates rebalancing down the line. It also opens up build possibilities that weren't possible before, which can be both a good and bad thing.

For NB, I don't like the masteries. And I don't like them because they have no real effect on combat and less value than subclassing. Shadow skill line in NB is worthless besides Cloak, and with it losing value after getting a working counter + fix for all instances of damage hitting crit if you time it right out of stealth, there's zero reason for me to stay a pure NB versus subclassing.

NB's damage has fallen compared to other options, yes, but more than that the class lacks any real defensive option besides roll and block once you strip cloak. And that lack of defensive options along with lower damage (as a pure class NB), means that the rest of the class better be compelling or there's no reason to be an NB.

Some will find the cloak/invis mechanic to be a compelling offer even after the nerfs. Some will move to a ranged spammable damage/heal on NB that will definitely get adjusted later down the line and claim that NB is back. But the reality is that even the changes published there aren't enough to make the class compelling beyond a limited set of builds that will just oppress the bottom classes in PvP and still not pose a threat to the top.

The lack of skill being a factor in current and previous patches over the years has been deterimental to the game. The cutting of "trick play" and all skills and abilities that stopped players from simply being able to rush in your face and kill you has actually harmed NB and it's identity more than anything else in the game because it was designed to be evasive and exploit that kind of play.

Moving to a direct damage stats-based combat focus also didn't help the class and is part of the reason why no amount of buffing can help it beyond adding over 9000 wd/sd, which still may not matter because everything is countered by the roll button.

Unlike Sorc there's no tool to lock down anyone at a range, the scribed options are inferior as well. And that's just the start of the problems to be honest. I mean anyone playing NB knows how bad the class is once you encounter a block holder. You need to cut your defense for damage or you can't sustain (similar to Templar, Necro, Arcanist), or cut your damage and you can't kill anyone.

But the blocking DK can and will just leap at you and you're done anyway. You get close to use fear? You're petrified and you're done. When that's the case, will a mastery really solve the problem? I don't think so to be honest.

It will open up some builds, but it won't have any effect in reality. And then PvE will become an issue and get it nerfed.

I agree with a 99% of what you said except for the bit about shadow being useless besides cloak. I just want to say I think shade is as useful as cloak and is really under rated. But yeah you are right, the rest of the skill line is buns and there really is no reason not to subclass a nb.

Also, at the end, you said pve would be an issue which threw me off. These class masteries are at their full power with no restriction in PvE already. Or am I misunderstanding?

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Zos, please, I am begging you, removing these restrictions in pvp would help so much and buff up the lower end like everyone wants. None of these class masteries are enough to beat out DK or Sorc, if anything maybe one or two of the classes would be on par with sorc.

The values are not that much of a crazy buff as people think. Necro and Arc it is literally a difference of 15% more damage on the least played classes. Templar and NB are a bit harder to quantify in a short pithy paragraph but suffice to say Templar should be fully un shackled and NB too. But if people are really so worried about nb then just make it 15% crit damage and 1500 wpn dmg and 20 seconds on the dodge CM's unique 5%. Or just rework the crit dmg one to be some sort of a fear/stun or a proc for burst damage to make NB combos better. Or heck, just change it to 6k pen or something. 6k pen is 9% damage increase

Bottom line, unshackling the bottom classes would breathe some life into pvp and help with balance

The problem with doing it at all is that no one can answer a simple question: how much weight should a class mastery be in a build?

Because they are not balanced from the start, the answer is not an obvious one. And that means that there will be lots of situations where the unpredictable happens even if it only looks like a small number adjustment.

Masteries should have focused on closing a class' weakpoints, which is exactly what subclassing allows anyone building to do, and contributing a small but noticeable amount.

instead in some cases they define the class now (Sorc, DK) and in other cases they have no purpose or real effect in actual combat (NB).

When things vary that much, it's not that simple to just make changes. And that's before we get into specific sets and builds.

Flat damage/healing /sustain increases are bad vs. a utility function or effect that can be used in a strategic or otherwise limited fashion because it just adds powercreep and then necessitates rebalancing down the line. It also opens up build possibilities that weren't possible before, which can be both a good and bad thing.

For NB, I don't like the masteries. And I don't like them because they have no real effect on combat and less value than subclassing. Shadow skill line in NB is worthless besides Cloak, and with it losing value after getting a working counter + fix for all instances of damage hitting crit if you time it right out of stealth, there's zero reason for me to stay a pure NB versus subclassing.

NB's damage has fallen compared to other options, yes, but more than that the class lacks any real defensive option besides roll and block once you strip cloak. And that lack of defensive options along with lower damage (as a pure class NB), means that the rest of the class better be compelling or there's no reason to be an NB.

Some will find the cloak/invis mechanic to be a compelling offer even after the nerfs. Some will move to a ranged spammable damage/heal on NB that will definitely get adjusted later down the line and claim that NB is back. But the reality is that even the changes published there aren't enough to make the class compelling beyond a limited set of builds that will just oppress the bottom classes in PvP and still not pose a threat to the top.

The lack of skill being a factor in current and previous patches over the years has been deterimental to the game. The cutting of "trick play" and all skills and abilities that stopped players from simply being able to rush in your face and kill you has actually harmed NB and it's identity more than anything else in the game because it was designed to be evasive and exploit that kind of play.

Moving to a direct damage stats-based combat focus also didn't help the class and is part of the reason why no amount of buffing can help it beyond adding over 9000 wd/sd, which still may not matter because everything is countered by the roll button.

Unlike Sorc there's no tool to lock down anyone at a range, the scribed options are inferior as well. And that's just the start of the problems to be honest. I mean anyone playing NB knows how bad the class is once you encounter a block holder. You need to cut your defense for damage or you can't sustain (similar to Templar, Necro, Arcanist), or cut your damage and you can't kill anyone.

But the blocking DK can and will just leap at you and you're done anyway. You get close to use fear? You're petrified and you're done. When that's the case, will a mastery really solve the problem? I don't think so to be honest.

It will open up some builds, but it won't have any effect in reality. And then PvE will become an issue and get it nerfed.

I agree with a 99% of what you said except for the bit about shadow being useless besides cloak. I just want to say I think shade is as useful as cloak and is really under rated. But yeah you are right, the rest of the skill line is buns and there really is no reason not to subclass a nb.

Also, at the end, you said pve would be an issue which threw me off. These class masteries are at their full power with no restriction in PvE already. Or am I misunderstanding?

Shade is better than cloak even, it just takes planning to use it.

The safety that shade gives you is insane. You always have a get out of jail free card in your back pocket, and even if they manage to track you back to your shade, you can more or less infinitely kite someone using shade unless you're greatly outnumbered (and even then you can get away pretty often).

For real bro! Shade saves my life more than my burst heal does lol

pinkpom wrote: »

I really like the theme of Shadow Image, but I have never successfully pulled off the skill.
When I activate Shadow Image, my shadow is always more than 28 meters away from me after 10 seconds.
I always create a new shadow while in a state of confusion, and then I die.

Gotta use it with more than one "trick". There used to be more that complimented it, but the "pro" players got all forms of tactical and trick play nerfed so we can be in a PvP system where you just stack damage and run up into your opponents face and smash them dead.

Isn't it great how far PvP has fallen on all levels in the game? It's part of why balance sucks so much right now. There is no skill element in the game for the most part -- just tank and damage. Using a "skill" element puts you at a disadvantage vs. DK and Sorc.