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ZOS, why is werewolf balancing ‘unchanging’?
-
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/in any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain) i.e. less damage, and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
There are already a plethora of people on live or players with even a single healer that I cannot kill on live with Static Reverb, CoE, perfect weaving with bashes, keeping all dots, etc.
How much more damage could wolf feasibly lose in your opinion before its worse than it was? I can assure you that I'm building more sustain than I've ever built on wolf on the PTS and still burning out within 20 seconds times.
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 20:12Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 20:20Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.0 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:150 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
They just want actual classes to be nerfed now because a WW skill line got fixed / adjusted from being broken.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:220 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!0 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 21:25Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.
It's listed under World like Fighters guild.. It's not0 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭for me personally my WW is form is mostly an RP thing i like, but since we have no RP guilds and the other WW's in m guild are ferocious killers i may aswell become uunhinged with everyone else here instead on the forum about changes2
-
AdonisJorge✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
If you ignore all the buff on Monolith of Storms, buffed proc chance of static reverberation even with it being only with Sorc skills the changes was already shown here by @Wuuffyy, then for sure you will fail to understand my point, all of them even when nerfed on one side was buffed on another side, almost like a trade, WW was simply nerfed with nothing being compensated, not only on PVP but on PVE too, and ZOS said before that they were happy with WW performance on PVE
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:243 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
But can they talk?AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
If you ignore all the buff on Monolith of Storms, buffed proc chance of static reverberation even with it being only with Sorc skills the changes was already shown here by @Wuuffyy, then for sure you will fail to understand my point, all of them even when nerfed on one side was buffed on another side, almost like a trade, WW was simply nerfed with nothing being compensated, not only on PVP but on PVE too, and ZOS said before that they were happy with WW performance on PVE
First, monolith was buffed in u50 we’re discussing u51. Second, I don’t see the reason for competition in pve. Third, monolith hasn’t increased the overall power of sorc, it’s now a situationally great option that used to be among the useless sets. With it counting for sorc damage it got a bit of a buff but it’s small and it remains strictly situational. Pyrebrand is still not good for pve.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:250 -
AdonisJorge✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
But can they talk?AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
If you ignore all the buff on Monolith of Storms, buffed proc chance of static reverberation even with it being only with Sorc skills the changes was already shown here by @Wuuffyy, then for sure you will fail to understand my point, all of them even when nerfed on one side was buffed on another side, almost like a trade, WW was simply nerfed with nothing being compensated, not only on PVP but on PVE too, and ZOS said before that they were happy with WW performance on PVE
First, monolith was buffed in u50 we’re discussing u51. Second, I don’t see the reason for competition in pve. Third, monolith hasn’t increased the overall power of sorc, it’s now a situationally great option that used to be among the useless sets. With it counting for sorc damage it got a bit of a buff but it’s small and it remains strictly situational. Pyrebrand is still not good for pve.
Monolith was buffed on the lastest PTS patch too...
Worst of all, nothing you said demonstrate that the nerfs were not traded with some buffs, was not only straight nerfs like WW, all the changes on the u51 PTS were quoted by @Wuuffyy , just need to read them, even PVP nerfs were compensated for PVE
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:282 -
RedMamba✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
But can they talk?AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
If you ignore all the buff on Monolith of Storms, buffed proc chance of static reverberation even with it being only with Sorc skills the changes was already shown here by @Wuuffyy, then for sure you will fail to understand my point, all of them even when nerfed on one side was buffed on another side, almost like a trade, WW was simply nerfed with nothing being compensated, not only on PVP but on PVE too, and ZOS said before that they were happy with WW performance on PVE
First, monolith was buffed in u50 we’re discussing u51. Second, I don’t see the reason for competition in pve. Third, monolith hasn’t increased the overall power of sorc, it’s now a situationally great option that used to be among the useless sets. With it counting for sorc damage it got a bit of a buff but it’s small and it remains strictly situational. Pyrebrand is still not good for pve.
Monolith was buffed on the lastest PTS patch too...
Worst of all, nothing you said demonstrate that the nerfs were not traded with some buffs, was not only straight nerfs like WW, all the changes on the u51 PTS were quoted by @Wuuffyy , just need to read them, even PVP nerfs were compensated for PVE
They have not compensated for anything after the DK and Sorc nerfs for PvE....Once again stop spreading misinformation
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:291 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.Edited by Arunei on 25 August 2026 00:25PC-NA | Been around since closed beta | Alt account: Arunei PC-NA
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
RP Characters:
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Vampire who really really REALLY likes likes learning Magick and also her Altmer husbando
Kaalhil Swiftstrike: Tiny shapeshifting monster hunter Bosmeri lady with enough sass to kill a dragon or ten
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Friendly healer with a coffee addiction and her own medical practice
Krisiel: Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things and is also a spy and ALSO a Werewolf
Niralae Elsinal: Young Altmeri woman with way too much Magicka and Vampire husbando
Slondor: TESified Slenderman, except lazier and has more of a thing for deals than Clavicus Vile does
Marius Vastino: Sarah's Imperial apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Lirawyn Calatare: Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time6 -
demonology89✭✭✭✭Just popping in to give a big thanks to Wuuffyy and others for attempting to keep the devs feet to the flames over the egregious nerfs coming next patch to WW with absolutely nothing given back in return.
(ZOS, can you guys please give mods their own symbol when replying in threads? I was very disappointed in reading through all these pages to see no actual dev response to any of the hard data presented.)PS5 NA
ESO Plus: Yes
Current Activities: leveling baby toons, starting Clockwork DLC, avoiding PVP -_-
#MakeHealersSquishyAgain #MoreCombatTeamTransparency #LessSpreadsheets #ExcitedfortheReignofNick3 -
ZOS_IcymodAfter removing some unnecessary flaming in addition to some back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.- Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
The Elder Scrolls Online Team0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
I would have that conversation all day lol! I'd be very curious as to how diehard they want to go when they truth is just so plainly there.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
I would have that conversation all day lol! I'd be very curious as to how diehard they want to go when they truth is just so plainly there.
I agree, they’d probably be pretty unhappy there are people who wish to have werewolf be a ‘meme spec’ so badly that they are willing to to twist the truth at every turn just to make it seem like dropping an actual sustain ‘nuke’ (2-3x costs), and essentially relegating sorc wolf to ‘Support wolf’ through CoE nerfs and Static Reverb removal is okay especially despite the devs stating ‘they are relatively happy with its state in PvE’ (their words, not mine).
Removing sustain and returning nothing from a time where werewolf had similar sustain in many areas of the kit with more damage on tooltips, higher passives, and higher burst healing (where building 30k health meant you had a around a 9k heal on-demand and not a 5-6K heal).Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This was a response to a video I was sent but I think it somewhat helps understandably differentiate ‘paper’ from ‘actual gameplay’ especially on PTS albeit using testimony and basic logic to ascertain the point:
‘If werewolf objectively didn’t work before the rework, and it already cannot kill certain players and grouped players with a healer on live-
How does ‘building sustain’ and trading MORE damage help it when it already lost damage from the rework, defiles, dot uptimes, and on-demand healing by a significant portion through Fortitude + an incredibly strict requirement to build high health (whereas before, for example, I could build 30k health and my burst heal was finite but very decent still)?
Building sustain is the only answer I hear but if the answer to every problem was ‘building sustain’, people wouldn’t stop at a singular sustain set (especially werewolf that is requiring significantly more HP for on-demand healing compared to U49). You have to retain damage and the less you have on werewolf especially, the less likely you are to be effective. People seem to love to discredit the fact that werewolf does not, in fact, have burst I.E. you cannot build sustain+defense and pocket an Onslaught into a whip… so if your consistent DPS is not higher than HPS of an opponent properly reacting- you just don’t kill no matter how good you are at your rotation.
Rampage is also not an answer as despite building at a decent rate in a duel, most actual PvP scenarios especially when in a 1 v 2, 1 v 3 situation (let’s say BGS) see you kiting, moving around, and generally not staying on target 24/7. I’d say actual Rampage Fury Gen is around half to maybe 2/3 on average in actual play versus what’s expected in a duel.
Beyond that, the Mylene set is horrendous-
the damage in PvP is horrendous, the sustain return even against IC adds (its damage-based) is horrid, and the fury gen (25/1000 once every 10 seconds) is a joke and a half on its own’
~~~
This is all made worse as wolf was the only one nuked so very hard in sustain whereas:
DK’s CoF provides 2.7k main resource ‘recov’ with just 23k ‘missing’
Sorc’s CoE provides 1.5k ‘mag recov’ for 50k mag along with the damage increase from Font of Power.
It’s going to be pretty difficult when wolf is the only reworked class thusfar without ‘infinite sustain’ outside of Ramapge which you need to be in extended combat for (haha, you see the conundrum here?). How is one meant to reasonable ‘pressure’ any remotely competent player on DK (tons of heals all around), and sorc (shielding and streak) with near-‘infinite’ sustain?
Again, ‘good players’ will make it work but a lot of the heavy lifting will now come from the HPS more-so than anything else. Certain ‘duel builds’ will likely still work to a degree but in actual combat scenarios, wolf is very likely to suffer greatly on average.
*edited for more clarityEdited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 13:19Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.
I'm just calling it what it is and understanding that ultimately that probably effects the priority of it for zos.
It's a skill line just like vampire. In the crown store it's not listed directly next to Warden as a purchasable class. You can't pick it at the class selection screen. It's not a class.
But also as you say, it was given a class rep and a rework.
This is why I called it more of a hybrid. I'm just looking at this objectively in understanding why it's not getting the full priority that an actual class might.
Which is funny because a full class takes much more work to rework while a skill line is arguably much less.
But I guess we'll see where zos puts dev time as we go forward and see what their priority actually is.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.
I'm just calling it what it is and understanding that ultimately that probably effects the priority of it for zos.
It's a skill line just like vampire. In the crown store it's not listed directly next to Warden as a purchasable class. You can't pick it at the class selection screen. It's not a class.
But also as you say, it was given a class rep and a rework.
This is why I called it more of a hybrid. I'm just looking at this objectively in understanding why it's not getting the full priority that an actual class might.
Which is funny because a full class takes much more work to rework while a skill line is arguably much less.
But I guess we'll see where zos puts dev time as we go forward and see what their priority actually is.
I mean, if they’re ‘smart’, they’ll remove werewolf from the mastery system and give it masteries of its own in a patch or 2.
This would a save them a lot of time and effort moving forward as they no longer need to consider werewolf at all when adjusting masteries for their respective classes in PvE and PvP and werewolf balancing as-a-whole would become that much easier for them as they likely wouldn’t need to devote AS much effort into balancing based on ‘meta’-gaming due to less potential ‘toxic’ combinations.
I for one would very much appreciate not having my entire werewolf balanced clearly around the existence of CoE, for example. These masteries would certainly need to be complementary for PvE and should bring a lot of flavor given that a lot of flavor would be removed by this type of change.Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 12:52Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
i would dare you to say that to some of the WW in a guild i am in haha
But can they talk?AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
If anything sorc was indirectly nerfed further by draugrkin being butchered and ele sus cost, no buffs.
Pyrebrand got buffed a bit for dk but it’s hardly a cause for concern if you mean pvp. And ww can use sets freely so I fail to understand your point
If you ignore all the buff on Monolith of Storms, buffed proc chance of static reverberation even with it being only with Sorc skills the changes was already shown here by @Wuuffyy, then for sure you will fail to understand my point, all of them even when nerfed on one side was buffed on another side, almost like a trade, WW was simply nerfed with nothing being compensated, not only on PVP but on PVE too, and ZOS said before that they were happy with WW performance on PVE
First, monolith was buffed in u50 we’re discussing u51. Second, I don’t see the reason for competition in pve. Third, monolith hasn’t increased the overall power of sorc, it’s now a situationally great option that used to be among the useless sets. With it counting for sorc damage it got a bit of a buff but it’s small and it remains strictly situational. Pyrebrand is still not good for pve.
Monolith was buffed on the lastest PTS patch too...
Worst of all, nothing you said demonstrate that the nerfs were not traded with some buffs, was not only straight nerfs like WW, all the changes on the u51 PTS were quoted by @Wuuffyy , just need to read them, even PVP nerfs were compensated for PVE
They have not compensated for anything after the DK and Sorc nerfs for PvE....Once again stop spreading misinformation
[edited to remove quote]
This is just straight wrong on a technical level. They did give nerfs and buffs. I'm saying for pretty much each class you see them take something away but then say we adjusted this to the positive.
But don't take my word for it. Copy paste all the patch notes into ai then ask for each class what was nerfed and what was buffed and in most cases you should get a close to 1 for 1 ratio. You can ask which are pvp and pve if you like buy ai will probably have trouble sorting that because it's a matter of opinion.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.0 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
WW is a single skill line and not a class. It shouldn't outperform actually classes in game and is just something to do for fun but shouldn't expect it to be viable in endgame over actual classes.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
WW is a single skill line and not a class. It shouldn't outperform actually classes in game and is just something to do for fun but shouldn't expect it to be viable in endgame over actual classes.
Dev team reworked especially to make it viable in end-game scenarios. Raid leads want at least one wolf, where possible, in end game trial compositions. This is a healthy change to the 'prior norm' and werewolf itself is balanced there especially by lack of AoE, flexibility in utility+versatility, and range with the spec.
Werewolf being present in PvE doesn't affect your PvP experience at all:
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697154/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-0
Relevant DPS (albeit single-target and many trials you only want 1 or 2 if you have an 'Alkosh wolf', for example):
Source: https://hyperioxes.com/eso/dps/werewolf-build
Do you any data or other supporting info to back up your point?
As always, you keep saying the same things and 'if I didn't know any better', you are trying to derail this thread and/or bury info by rehashing the exact same, refuted point again and again. Can you kindly stop, please?Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 13:57Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0
