Maintenance for the week of August 24:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.1.3 is available.
Less nerfs
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NovelliESO✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »This is always such a level 1 engagement with anything. "less nerfs" There are plenty of things in ESO PvP worthy of nerfing. Power creep has come extremely far. Nerfs are not inherently bad and buffs are not inherently good but people keep echoing this sentiment as if they are.
Also, buffs and nerfs of these percentages are extremely common in ESO. It is generally better IMO to do them slower, but ZOS likes sweeping change for some reason.
Sometimes classes, skills, gear, etc. will need buffs, sometimes nerfs, that's just the reality of the game.
I mean everyone would enjoy everything being at DKs current power level in PVP more than everything being at Templar's current power level. Having everything be strong and viable allows for off meta builds to still be strong if at the cost of being not quite optimal. If every class has a 10 potential but you want to be a niche build at an 8, that still feels good to play. If you bring everything down to a 7 potential, then anything suboptimal is a 5, which just is just unfun to play. TTK, utility, etc should always be looked at from a maximum potential perspective as opposed to median. Just because x is as good as y but nothing is as good as it could be or once was, then it just feels like the opportunity cost is high at the onset.
Obviously the infinite sustain permablock DK we have now is an inherent issue on a different front since it's non-engaging for combat, but the general threat level of the class is what the goal should be.
This is just logically fallacious for multiple reasons. Power is relative, if everything is at templar's level or everything is at DK's level, everything is still at the same level which is healthier overall for PvP. There is no "strong" when they are all the same relative strength, that just doesn't make sense. There is no 10, 5, 7, whatever number you want to use. You can't make everything a 10 because you are only making that scale relative to everything else, if everything is a 10 nothing is a 10.
The only argument you can make is you want things to deal more damage and have people be less tanky so we aren't in a meta of people staying alive too long, like your TTK example, but that is a completely different line of argumentation than what you originally said.
That's just not true. Being a 10 isn't relative to other classes. Being a 10 means you can do everything at a top end level. Good burst, good mobility, good defense, good sustain, etc. Every class should just have full parity of access to the various facets of the game at the highest level. Player skill should be a defining factor. Not an inherent imbalance of the game. Over the years of the games existence, we know what the ceiling of the various components look like. There should he an active effort to push things up close to the ceiling in all facets on all classes. Each class can have a small outlier that helps maintain a level of uniqueness like mobility in streak, shields on arc, etc.
Again, this just doesn't hold up. How do you have everything do all of these things relative to each other? How is every class good at defense and offence? Being good at offense would mean being able to perform good relative to other classes defense, but how then does every class also at the same time have good defense if there are other classes with their offense performing good relative to it? It 's just paradoxical and doesn't logically hold up.
You should have the toolkit to do it. Ultimately everything is limited by bar space, sets, and resources. You should be able to take a class every which way at the highest level while still meeting in the middle at a respectable level. Right now DK does literally everything at a peak level while no one else does. That is the fundamental issue with the class in that it can peak on every facet with no sacrifice.
I agree, but that's why DK needed to be nerfed, it was an outlier in the fact that it did everything too strong, which I myself have stated. But again, nerfing DK was a faster more logical step than finding a relatively balanced way to buff literally everything else that wasn't up to par. They don't know how to make changes like that in such a broad fashion and end up hitting the nail on the head with them all. It would cause a bunch of issues, and at the same time it costs them more resources, and we know they don't have much to spare right now with what has happened.
I'm not saying never to nerf things. Monstrous outliers need to be addressed in the moment with the intention of bringing parity. The issue is the parity follow up never comes. They nerf DK and Sorc, but they'll never buff the other classes to bring them up to the everyone being a 7 stage so that there can eventually be a push to make everything a 10. DK got a refresh, got pushed to being very strong in PVE and PVP and then gets hammered back down to the pack. Then Warden will get the same treatment, and Sorc, and Templar, etc. There's just ups and downs of single classes based off of flavor of the month combat changes. Every time it's at the detriment of pretty much every other class just being awful. Imo it's a very bad and unhealthy approach to the game.
I don't quite understand this message. You say they'll never buff the classes to bring them up to everyone being a stage 7. Again this whole stage 10 thing doesn't make sense, it is all relative to each other, but even if I follow your logic, they are all getting a refresh. DK is, or at the very least should be strong right now because of the refresh it got. Before someone misunderstand I'm not saying it should be strong, I am saying if it is, that should be the rationale they give. With that being the case, the other classes that get reworked should also come up to that power level, the issue is they are just taking forever to do it. So, when you say they won't be brought up to 7, I don't understand because you also in the next vein say they will all get this treatment. I think the big misunderstanding it your conflation of thinking DK is now hammered back down.
DK was massively overperforming as far as PvP was concerned. With the nerfs, as someone else mention, CoF is still absurdly strong, I have seen multiple threads and people calling for additional nerfs to it, understandably so. Regardless of what people think, whip is still great, DK also has wings which is pretty overloaded, CoF, and plenty of other skills and ults in its kit. So, as far as it being hammered down, sure it got nerfed, but it still performs as an outlier, just not something so far above the others that it's screaming for nerfs.
A class refresh should be to refresh the class in terms of playstyle, effects, etc. It shouldn't be to make it king of the hill. DK is the reverse NB atm, so balance is kind of hard. It is dominant in PVP and bottom tier in PVE, so I get the balancing of it being slow and iterative. My main issue is the lack of floor raising elsewhere. Arc is bad in PVE and PVP, which means tooltip juicing is a pretty safe approach to bring it up in both game modes. NB has been in the basement since they messed with shadowy, so the easiest solution to help it in PVP is to revert those changes or give it some unique aspects of sustain/mobility to compensate the loss of power there so that it moves up in PVP but doesn't get more out of control in PVE. Necro is a hard one because a lot of issues are around the jankiness of blastbones, but I'm sure something could be tried to help it be more than a block tank meme. Templar and Warden just need sustain love to move up in both game modes (and give arctic blast it's heal back but at like 50% if it hits an enemy). Those are just super obvious long standing issues for the classes, which aren't even being discussed, mentioned, or tried. It's always just nerf one class but not buff anything else.
Yes, balance is hard, especially when you are trying to appease so many people who all have differing opinions. All the people saying you can do minor tweaks don't understand that a large portion of them would probably draw disagreement, and the devs themselves took over 6 months to make MINOR tweaks to the things that were obviously overperforming. With that being the case, how long do you think it would take them to make minor tweaks to 5x as many abilities?
The class refreshes they are doing, are going to address the exact problems people here are complaining about, they just live under the guise that it can be done quickly, which I think, it SHOULD be, but for whatever reason they are extremely slow. That is just the reality of it, and if they are so slow in doing it, if they were so slow in changing CoF from 15% to 12%, an extremely monotonous change, why does anyone believe they will be quick in tweaking so many other skills?
That's literally what patches are for. Try a bunch of changes, get data from performance, and then adjust up or down. Doing nothing but changing monstrous outliers by 20% every 2 months is a horrific and lazy approach. We've all played the game. We've seen how disgustingly out of control DK has been the whole patch. Obviously they aren't bothered by letting something stupidly broken hit live. They even removed Signet from PVP outright a week after the patch went live. There's clearly an ability to adjust anything too far out of their allotted margins. Try a bunch of changes and if something ends up broken, then you adjust next patch, or immediately if absolutely necessary. Sitting on your hands and saying "we'll refresh that class in 2 years" instead of fixing obvious pain points is an awful stance and trying to justify it is just dumb.
Yeah you are causing more problems with this, "TRY" a bunch of changes, yes and then end up upsetting the entire population. You aren't even engaging with what I said in the last message. If it took them over 6 months to change CoF from 15 to 12% which is such an easy, small change, why do you live under this impression that post layoffs they can do so much more so quickly? Even if you believe they should be able to, which I do as well, why do you then they think aren't doing it? They have obvious reservations with it, and they are doing class refreshes which will eventually address the issues you have. Until then, the more logical thing to do is nerf the smaller set of skill that overperform rather than make a bunch of changes.
I think they're not doing it because they have people making the changes with spreadsheets instead of playing the game. We all have probably seen the stream from the lead combat dev. We know the level of player we have handling the balance of the game. That in of itself is going to cause pretty big limitations to the scope and understanding of the game state. Layoffs shouldn't have impact on the ability to go into existing code and changing a static variable value. Making betty and rune give back 50% more resources takes an intern 4 seconds to do. Warden class refresh is something understandably impacted by layoffs. Balance tweaks are not.
But these people have never really played PvP to begin with and that isn't going to change, so whatever metric they are using is going to stay the same. There is one dev who used to play PvP to some sort of okayish level on the team, don't even know if he's even still there, and he doesn't even play anymore. I agree the changes that can be made should be easy and can be done, but what does that matter if they are obviously averse to it? The whole point is that making all of these different changes, like I've said five times now, is still more on them than just nerfing the few skills that clearly overperform.
Skill clearly outperforming to the massive amount of people that are not reliant on the class being strong = easy small nerf
20 skills not up to par with the overperforming skills = 20 skills they have to come up with what they think will be balanced when they can't even get just one CoF nerf right
It just doesn't add up. Nerfing two skills is easier than buffing 20 when those 2 are clearly overperforming and the other 20 are already pretty on par with each other. Yes they are not on par with the other 2, but that isn't their concern at the moment.
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madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »This is always such a level 1 engagement with anything. "less nerfs" There are plenty of things in ESO PvP worthy of nerfing. Power creep has come extremely far. Nerfs are not inherently bad and buffs are not inherently good but people keep echoing this sentiment as if they are.
Also, buffs and nerfs of these percentages are extremely common in ESO. It is generally better IMO to do them slower, but ZOS likes sweeping change for some reason.
Sometimes classes, skills, gear, etc. will need buffs, sometimes nerfs, that's just the reality of the game.
I mean everyone would enjoy everything being at DKs current power level in PVP more than everything being at Templar's current power level. Having everything be strong and viable allows for off meta builds to still be strong if at the cost of being not quite optimal. If every class has a 10 potential but you want to be a niche build at an 8, that still feels good to play. If you bring everything down to a 7 potential, then anything suboptimal is a 5, which just is just unfun to play. TTK, utility, etc should always be looked at from a maximum potential perspective as opposed to median. Just because x is as good as y but nothing is as good as it could be or once was, then it just feels like the opportunity cost is high at the onset.
Obviously the infinite sustain permablock DK we have now is an inherent issue on a different front since it's non-engaging for combat, but the general threat level of the class is what the goal should be.
This is just logically fallacious for multiple reasons. Power is relative, if everything is at templar's level or everything is at DK's level, everything is still at the same level which is healthier overall for PvP. There is no "strong" when they are all the same relative strength, that just doesn't make sense. There is no 10, 5, 7, whatever number you want to use. You can't make everything a 10 because you are only making that scale relative to everything else, if everything is a 10 nothing is a 10.
The only argument you can make is you want things to deal more damage and have people be less tanky so we aren't in a meta of people staying alive too long, like your TTK example, but that is a completely different line of argumentation than what you originally said.
That's just not true. Being a 10 isn't relative to other classes. Being a 10 means you can do everything at a top end level. Good burst, good mobility, good defense, good sustain, etc. Every class should just have full parity of access to the various facets of the game at the highest level. Player skill should be a defining factor. Not an inherent imbalance of the game. Over the years of the games existence, we know what the ceiling of the various components look like. There should he an active effort to push things up close to the ceiling in all facets on all classes. Each class can have a small outlier that helps maintain a level of uniqueness like mobility in streak, shields on arc, etc.
Again, this just doesn't hold up. How do you have everything do all of these things relative to each other? How is every class good at defense and offence? Being good at offense would mean being able to perform good relative to other classes defense, but how then does every class also at the same time have good defense if there are other classes with their offense performing good relative to it? It 's just paradoxical and doesn't logically hold up.
You should have the toolkit to do it. Ultimately everything is limited by bar space, sets, and resources. You should be able to take a class every which way at the highest level while still meeting in the middle at a respectable level. Right now DK does literally everything at a peak level while no one else does. That is the fundamental issue with the class in that it can peak on every facet with no sacrifice.
I agree, but that's why DK needed to be nerfed, it was an outlier in the fact that it did everything too strong, which I myself have stated. But again, nerfing DK was a faster more logical step than finding a relatively balanced way to buff literally everything else that wasn't up to par. They don't know how to make changes like that in such a broad fashion and end up hitting the nail on the head with them all. It would cause a bunch of issues, and at the same time it costs them more resources, and we know they don't have much to spare right now with what has happened.
I'm not saying never to nerf things. Monstrous outliers need to be addressed in the moment with the intention of bringing parity. The issue is the parity follow up never comes. They nerf DK and Sorc, but they'll never buff the other classes to bring them up to the everyone being a 7 stage so that there can eventually be a push to make everything a 10. DK got a refresh, got pushed to being very strong in PVE and PVP and then gets hammered back down to the pack. Then Warden will get the same treatment, and Sorc, and Templar, etc. There's just ups and downs of single classes based off of flavor of the month combat changes. Every time it's at the detriment of pretty much every other class just being awful. Imo it's a very bad and unhealthy approach to the game.
I don't quite understand this message. You say they'll never buff the classes to bring them up to everyone being a stage 7. Again this whole stage 10 thing doesn't make sense, it is all relative to each other, but even if I follow your logic, they are all getting a refresh. DK is, or at the very least should be strong right now because of the refresh it got. Before someone misunderstand I'm not saying it should be strong, I am saying if it is, that should be the rationale they give. With that being the case, the other classes that get reworked should also come up to that power level, the issue is they are just taking forever to do it. So, when you say they won't be brought up to 7, I don't understand because you also in the next vein say they will all get this treatment. I think the big misunderstanding it your conflation of thinking DK is now hammered back down.
DK was massively overperforming as far as PvP was concerned. With the nerfs, as someone else mention, CoF is still absurdly strong, I have seen multiple threads and people calling for additional nerfs to it, understandably so. Regardless of what people think, whip is still great, DK also has wings which is pretty overloaded, CoF, and plenty of other skills and ults in its kit. So, as far as it being hammered down, sure it got nerfed, but it still performs as an outlier, just not something so far above the others that it's screaming for nerfs.
A class refresh should be to refresh the class in terms of playstyle, effects, etc. It shouldn't be to make it king of the hill. DK is the reverse NB atm, so balance is kind of hard. It is dominant in PVP and bottom tier in PVE, so I get the balancing of it being slow and iterative. My main issue is the lack of floor raising elsewhere. Arc is bad in PVE and PVP, which means tooltip juicing is a pretty safe approach to bring it up in both game modes. NB has been in the basement since they messed with shadowy, so the easiest solution to help it in PVP is to revert those changes or give it some unique aspects of sustain/mobility to compensate the loss of power there so that it moves up in PVP but doesn't get more out of control in PVE. Necro is a hard one because a lot of issues are around the jankiness of blastbones, but I'm sure something could be tried to help it be more than a block tank meme. Templar and Warden just need sustain love to move up in both game modes (and give arctic blast it's heal back but at like 50% if it hits an enemy). Those are just super obvious long standing issues for the classes, which aren't even being discussed, mentioned, or tried. It's always just nerf one class but not buff anything else.
Yes, balance is hard, especially when you are trying to appease so many people who all have differing opinions. All the people saying you can do minor tweaks don't understand that a large portion of them would probably draw disagreement, and the devs themselves took over 6 months to make MINOR tweaks to the things that were obviously overperforming. With that being the case, how long do you think it would take them to make minor tweaks to 5x as many abilities?
The class refreshes they are doing, are going to address the exact problems people here are complaining about, they just live under the guise that it can be done quickly, which I think, it SHOULD be, but for whatever reason they are extremely slow. That is just the reality of it, and if they are so slow in doing it, if they were so slow in changing CoF from 15% to 12%, an extremely monotonous change, why does anyone believe they will be quick in tweaking so many other skills?
That's literally what patches are for. Try a bunch of changes, get data from performance, and then adjust up or down. Doing nothing but changing monstrous outliers by 20% every 2 months is a horrific and lazy approach. We've all played the game. We've seen how disgustingly out of control DK has been the whole patch. Obviously they aren't bothered by letting something stupidly broken hit live. They even removed Signet from PVP outright a week after the patch went live. There's clearly an ability to adjust anything too far out of their allotted margins. Try a bunch of changes and if something ends up broken, then you adjust next patch, or immediately if absolutely necessary. Sitting on your hands and saying "we'll refresh that class in 2 years" instead of fixing obvious pain points is an awful stance and trying to justify it is just dumb.
Yeah you are causing more problems with this, "TRY" a bunch of changes, yes and then end up upsetting the entire population. You aren't even engaging with what I said in the last message. If it took them over 6 months to change CoF from 15 to 12% which is such an easy, small change, why do you live under this impression that post layoffs they can do so much more so quickly? Even if you believe they should be able to, which I do as well, why do you then they think aren't doing it? They have obvious reservations with it, and they are doing class refreshes which will eventually address the issues you have. Until then, the more logical thing to do is nerf the smaller set of skill that overperform rather than make a bunch of changes.
I think they're not doing it because they have people making the changes with spreadsheets instead of playing the game. We all have probably seen the stream from the lead combat dev. We know the level of player we have handling the balance of the game. That in of itself is going to cause pretty big limitations to the scope and understanding of the game state. Layoffs shouldn't have impact on the ability to go into existing code and changing a static variable value. Making betty and rune give back 50% more resources takes an intern 4 seconds to do. Warden class refresh is something understandably impacted by layoffs. Balance tweaks are not.
But these people have never really played PvP to begin with and that isn't going to change, so whatever metric they are using is going to stay the same. There is one dev who used to play PvP to some sort of okayish level on the team, don't even know if he's even still there, and he doesn't even play anymore. I agree the changes that can be made should be easy and can be done, but what does that matter if they are obviously averse to it? The whole point is that making all of these different changes, like I've said five times now, is still more on them than just nerfing the few skills that clearly overperform.
Skill clearly outperforming to the massive amount of people that are not reliant on the class being strong = easy small nerf
20 skills not up to par with the overperforming skills = 20 skills they have to come up with what they think will be balanced when they can't even get just one CoF nerf right
It just doesn't add up. Nerfing two skills is easier than buffing 20 when those 2 are clearly overperforming and the other 20 are already pretty on par with each other. Yes they are not on par with the other 2, but that isn't their concern at the moment.
Yes but nerfing two skills doesn't change anything. Yeah DK is slightly less grotesquely broken, but it's still comfortably the best class in PVP. Arc is still unusable. NB and Necro are still awful. Warden and Templar are still meh. It's still just a Sorc and DK game mode. Them both going from god tier to broken tier doesn't fix the game being boring af to play with no options.Edited by madmufffin on 25 August 2026 00:361 -
s3dulo✭✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »I keep saying it and they aren't listening.
Buff. The. Other. Classes.
Sorc was instantly competitive when the class masteries gave it all ther sustain it needed. DKs true OP source is Heart of Flame not whip. The other classes have to sacrifice sets or traits for sustain. Sorc and Dk are competitive against each other and are very fun to play. Instead of ruining that, just build more sustsain into the other classes and they will be instantly more competitive.
The nerfs are a joke because it doesn't create a need for these classes to sacrifice for sustain.
Again, this is the same level 1 engaging with everything. If there are 200 skills, 195 are balanced and 5 are too strong, you don't buff the other 195 skills, that takes way too much in terms of dev resources, you simply nerf the 5 skills that are overperforming. Regardless of if that is the case or not, that is what the devs see at the moment and nerfing those skills is more efficient than buffing every single other skill or kit in the game.
Also, the whip thing has been beaten to death and I still haven't seen a single good faith interpretation of how it wasn't strong pre PTS nerfs.
You're premise is flawed. It would take minor tweaks to make the other classes competive. Just a few small changes to one class passive, or skill passive, or skill to add sustain would allow the other classes to build entirely into damage and defense like dk and sorc. Problem solved.
That would carry the classes until they are refreshed. It's mind-numbingly easy. These nerfs don't make the other classes any more competitive.
Either they need to nerf conservation of energy and heart of flame into the dirt so dk and sorc are forced to build into sustain or they need to give the other classes the same treatment. Both are easy.
There is nothing flawed with this premise and you can't just say it is as fact and hope it lands. How many minor tweaks do you have to do to please every single person of every other class in the game? Give me a number. When you realize that number is higher than the amount of skills that were nerfed on DK and sorc then how do you even argue that it wouldn't take more dev resources to do what I just said? Your premise is flawed based on a misunderstanding of the way the game works.
The best part about this comment is your conclusion literally agrees with the statement I made, if you nerf just CoF and CoE you end up with the same level playing field for the most part with much less work. Please engage with devs having to put more resources into changing several skills vs. two. It just doesn't make sense.
It's flawed because you are assuming it's more complicated than it is. 5 changes is all it would take. There are 5 classes that need help. One small change for each.
But yea, it could be 2 nerfs, then everyone would need to run wretched vitality or we could make 5 changes and see more variety. Also, I didn't say changing the other classes would be easier than nerfing, I just said it would be easy. And it would be way better.
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madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »I keep saying it and they aren't listening.
Buff. The. Other. Classes.
Sorc was instantly competitive when the class masteries gave it all ther sustain it needed. DKs true OP source is Heart of Flame not whip. The other classes have to sacrifice sets or traits for sustain. Sorc and Dk are competitive against each other and are very fun to play. Instead of ruining that, just build more sustsain into the other classes and they will be instantly more competitive.
The nerfs are a joke because it doesn't create a need for these classes to sacrifice for sustain.
Again, this is the same level 1 engaging with everything. If there are 200 skills, 195 are balanced and 5 are too strong, you don't buff the other 195 skills, that takes way too much in terms of dev resources, you simply nerf the 5 skills that are overperforming. Regardless of if that is the case or not, that is what the devs see at the moment and nerfing those skills is more efficient than buffing every single other skill or kit in the game.
Also, the whip thing has been beaten to death and I still haven't seen a single good faith interpretation of how it wasn't strong pre PTS nerfs.
You're premise is flawed. It would take minor tweaks to make the other classes competive. Just a few small changes to one class passive, or skill passive, or skill to add sustain would allow the other classes to build entirely into damage and defense like dk and sorc. Problem solved.
That would carry the classes until they are refreshed. It's mind-numbingly easy. These nerfs don't make the other classes any more competitive.
Either they need to nerf conservation of energy and heart of flame into the dirt so dk and sorc are forced to build into sustain or they need to give the other classes the same treatment. Both are easy.
There is nothing flawed with this premise and you can't just say it is as fact and hope it lands. How many minor tweaks do you have to do to please every single person of every other class in the game? Give me a number. When you realize that number is higher than the amount of skills that were nerfed on DK and sorc then how do you even argue that it wouldn't take more dev resources to do what I just said? Your premise is flawed based on a misunderstanding of the way the game works.
The best part about this comment is your conclusion literally agrees with the statement I made, if you nerf just CoF and CoE you end up with the same level playing field for the most part with much less work. Please engage with devs having to put more resources into changing several skills vs. two. It just doesn't make sense.
It's flawed because you are assuming it's more complicated than it is. 5 changes is all it would take. There are 5 classes that need help. One small change for each.
But yea, it could be 2 nerfs, then everyone would need to run wretched vitality or we could make 5 changes and see more variety. Also, I didn't say changing the other classes would be easier than nerfing, I just said it would be easy. And it would be way better.
I would rather them take a punt with 5 buffs and accidentally make something new broken than to only slightly nerf outliers but do nothing to change the actual meta dynamic.1 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭Also would like to point out with the amount of time and coding it probably took for these needlessly convoluted changes to Strife and Balanced Warrior, they probably couldve tweaked the 20 skills across the 5 "bad" classes needed to shake up the meta.1
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Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you base your expectations on the absolutely broken state of U50 Sorc, then it won't be a surprise that this patch will feel disappointing. The amount of free damage, heal and sustain that was available to Sorc on status builds, especially with signet, was just ludicrous.
I am also not thrilled seeing Draugrkin getting nerfed this way, but the adjustment of Blood Magic/CoE/Static Reverberation is absolutely justified. And so is the cost on Ele Sus.
No one who ran around, fully decked out with overpowered build options in every slot, will get a single tear of sympathy from me.
If you feel like your build is getting hit on all fronts, that should maybe inspire some self-reflection.
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tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do think sone times nerfs are called for.
Sure, the U35 nerfs were disastrous. But a single build should not be able to have everything. The answer therefore is to make the OP build have to make choices instead of just throwing up your hands and saying “screw it, make everyone OP.”
Power. Sustain. Survivability. Pick two. You shouldn’t get them all.
Here’s a thought experiment: if we’re saying that DK and Sorc are currently at a 10/10 and the other classes are a 5/10, then of course it’s not fun to play one of those 5/10 classes.
Now how would you score a DK who doesn’t slot Heart of Flame? What about a Sorc who didn’t take Conservation of Energy?
If we’re gonna say “lmao, that idiot DK/Sorc is now a 5/10,” that suggests that the entire problem is that those two specific things are OP, not the class as a whole. Conversely, saying “lmao, just give infinite sustain to the others” also is just exacerbating problems - isn’t TTK long enough without having two people with infinite damage and sustain and survivability try to see who gets hit with a lag spike first? Is that really where the deciding factor for PvP should be?
The Combat Team needs to engage with combat in this game, not just look at spreadsheets and listen to the loudest whiners. If they aren’t good at PvP or PvE, then they need to find - and listen to - players who are experts in those fields, and preferably more than one to get a less biased outlook.
Oh, and they need to give us more transparency on like everything. And communicate.2 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »I do think sone times nerfs are called for.
Sure, the U35 nerfs were disastrous. But a single build should not be able to have everything. The answer therefore is to make the OP build have to make choices instead of just throwing up your hands and saying “screw it, make everyone OP.”
Power. Sustain. Survivability. Pick two. You shouldn’t get them all.
Here’s a thought experiment: if we’re saying that DK and Sorc are currently at a 10/10 and the other classes are a 5/10, then of course it’s not fun to play one of those 5/10 classes.
Now how would you score a DK who doesn’t slot Heart of Flame? What about a Sorc who didn’t take Conservation of Energy?
If we’re gonna say “lmao, that idiot DK/Sorc is now a 5/10,” that suggests that the entire problem is that those two specific things are OP, not the class as a whole. Conversely, saying “lmao, just give infinite sustain to the others” also is just exacerbating problems - isn’t TTK long enough without having two people with infinite damage and sustain and survivability try to see who gets hit with a lag spike first? Is that really where the deciding factor for PvP should be?
The Combat Team needs to engage with combat in this game, not just look at spreadsheets and listen to the loudest whiners. If they aren’t good at PvP or PvE, then they need to find - and listen to - players who are experts in those fields, and preferably more than one to get a less biased outlook.
Oh, and they need to give us more transparency on like everything. And communicate.
The problem is the self-proclaimed 'experts' frequently have heavy biases. They would need to strive for neutrals.
Would you believe this is what the 'Class Rep' program was? That was handled pretty terribly and I doubt they're currently in a position for a round 2.Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
NovelliESO✭✭✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »I keep saying it and they aren't listening.
Buff. The. Other. Classes.
Sorc was instantly competitive when the class masteries gave it all ther sustain it needed. DKs true OP source is Heart of Flame not whip. The other classes have to sacrifice sets or traits for sustain. Sorc and Dk are competitive against each other and are very fun to play. Instead of ruining that, just build more sustsain into the other classes and they will be instantly more competitive.
The nerfs are a joke because it doesn't create a need for these classes to sacrifice for sustain.
Again, this is the same level 1 engaging with everything. If there are 200 skills, 195 are balanced and 5 are too strong, you don't buff the other 195 skills, that takes way too much in terms of dev resources, you simply nerf the 5 skills that are overperforming. Regardless of if that is the case or not, that is what the devs see at the moment and nerfing those skills is more efficient than buffing every single other skill or kit in the game.
Also, the whip thing has been beaten to death and I still haven't seen a single good faith interpretation of how it wasn't strong pre PTS nerfs.
You're premise is flawed. It would take minor tweaks to make the other classes competive. Just a few small changes to one class passive, or skill passive, or skill to add sustain would allow the other classes to build entirely into damage and defense like dk and sorc. Problem solved.
That would carry the classes until they are refreshed. It's mind-numbingly easy. These nerfs don't make the other classes any more competitive.
Either they need to nerf conservation of energy and heart of flame into the dirt so dk and sorc are forced to build into sustain or they need to give the other classes the same treatment. Both are easy.
There is nothing flawed with this premise and you can't just say it is as fact and hope it lands. How many minor tweaks do you have to do to please every single person of every other class in the game? Give me a number. When you realize that number is higher than the amount of skills that were nerfed on DK and sorc then how do you even argue that it wouldn't take more dev resources to do what I just said? Your premise is flawed based on a misunderstanding of the way the game works.
The best part about this comment is your conclusion literally agrees with the statement I made, if you nerf just CoF and CoE you end up with the same level playing field for the most part with much less work. Please engage with devs having to put more resources into changing several skills vs. two. It just doesn't make sense.
It's flawed because you are assuming it's more complicated than it is. 5 changes is all it would take. There are 5 classes that need help. One small change for each.
But yea, it could be 2 nerfs, then everyone would need to run wretched vitality or we could make 5 changes and see more variety. Also, I didn't say changing the other classes would be easier than nerfing, I just said it would be easy. And it would be way better.
Wrong once again. I am not assuming it's more complicated than it is, you should try reading what I typed. I personally think it's easy, but for whatever reason they don't, which is evident by the 6 months it took them to change CoF from 15% to 12%. Also, I guarantee the consensus would not agree on the buffs, which I have already said. The community rarely agrees and even the DK which was extremely overbuffed had people coming to its defense when CoF got a very slight nerf, even though it is still overperforming. Acting as if doing multiple buffs isn't harder on the company that took 6 months to change CoF is silly, and acting as if buffing multiple things will also go over smoothly is silly. They have already made clear what their game plan is, they are going to stick to it.0 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭One day there will be an adventurous lead that actually plays the game at an above overland level that comes in and reworks weapons, armor, and fixes problems that classes have suffered from for 10 years so that the game can feel like a proper mmo and not a constant urge to decide how much turd you want to eat to play not one way exclusively.0
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Zallion✭✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Sorc just had coe and blood magic nuked by 25% and 40% respectively which are obscene numbers basically unprecedented for mmorpgs, it’s not how changes are done.
The class has been indirectly nerfed twice on top of that by ele sus gaining a cost and draugrkin being butchered for no reason.
All of this put together might hit a little too hard, can we have something to offset this a bit?
Like making those numbers a bit less drastic and reverting draugrkin changes that turned the set from situationally iseful to completely useless.
Arcanist had two skills in U44 nerfed by 56% and 50%. There’s more examples but that one comes to mind first.
Those skills were too strong. But those nerfs were too heavy handed. That’s to be said, nerfs won’t stop now, it just sucks when it’s on a class you like to play.
CoE needed/needs to be reigned in. I’m sorry but that’s just the case, it was/is too strong. That’s why you’re seeing this. Some champion too much nerfs because they resent certain classes, calling for streak and a whole bunch of other stuff, that’s too much. But top outliers that just bring other classes into the stratosphere above the rest should be balanced accordingly. Logically it’s easier and quicker to address the outliers than to buff and balance everything else.
Nerfs are part of the lifecycle of this game, mmorpgs in general.
Sorcs will be fine after this patch, and still relatively at the same spot. But the gap won’t be as drastic as it is now is all, that is a good thing for the overall health of the game.0 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »I keep saying it and they aren't listening.
Buff. The. Other. Classes.
Sorc was instantly competitive when the class masteries gave it all ther sustain it needed. DKs true OP source is Heart of Flame not whip. The other classes have to sacrifice sets or traits for sustain. Sorc and Dk are competitive against each other and are very fun to play. Instead of ruining that, just build more sustsain into the other classes and they will be instantly more competitive.
The nerfs are a joke because it doesn't create a need for these classes to sacrifice for sustain.
Again, this is the same level 1 engaging with everything. If there are 200 skills, 195 are balanced and 5 are too strong, you don't buff the other 195 skills, that takes way too much in terms of dev resources, you simply nerf the 5 skills that are overperforming. Regardless of if that is the case or not, that is what the devs see at the moment and nerfing those skills is more efficient than buffing every single other skill or kit in the game.
Also, the whip thing has been beaten to death and I still haven't seen a single good faith interpretation of how it wasn't strong pre PTS nerfs.
Honestly sounds like lazy balancing to me. Especially when the 195 (let's put this in the frame of 'sets') contains things like-
Hircine’s Veneer as the worst sustain set is a lot more funny considering how Werewolf has the worst sustain as a beast of Hircine next update.Founder of New Age Crusade, the #1 Battlegrounds guild on Xbox NA1 -
IncultaWolf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ItsNotLiving wrote: »CoE is still one of the best masteries in the game even after the nerfs.
Yes I'm going to keep using it on my werewolf.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »I do think sone times nerfs are called for.
Sure, the U35 nerfs were disastrous. But a single build should not be able to have everything. The answer therefore is to make the OP build have to make choices instead of just throwing up your hands and saying “screw it, make everyone OP.”
Power. Sustain. Survivability. Pick two. You shouldn’t get them all.
Here’s a thought experiment: if we’re saying that DK and Sorc are currently at a 10/10 and the other classes are a 5/10, then of course it’s not fun to play one of those 5/10 classes.
Now how would you score a DK who doesn’t slot Heart of Flame? What about a Sorc who didn’t take Conservation of Energy?
If we’re gonna say “lmao, that idiot DK/Sorc is now a 5/10,” that suggests that the entire problem is that those two specific things are OP, not the class as a whole. Conversely, saying “lmao, just give infinite sustain to the others” also is just exacerbating problems - isn’t TTK long enough without having two people with infinite damage and sustain and survivability try to see who gets hit with a lag spike first? Is that really where the deciding factor for PvP should be?
The Combat Team needs to engage with combat in this game, not just look at spreadsheets and listen to the loudest whiners. If they aren’t good at PvP or PvE, then they need to find - and listen to - players who are experts in those fields, and preferably more than one to get a less biased outlook.
Oh, and they need to give us more transparency on like everything. And communicate.
The problem is the self-proclaimed 'experts' frequently have heavy biases. They would need to strive for neutrals.
Would you believe this is what the 'Class Rep' program was? That was handled pretty terribly and I doubt they're currently in a position for a round 2.
There are several experts who do strive for neutrals though.2 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭i vote back to basics for eso nerf everything back to the bone back to the very first Beta condition and start again1 -
acanca✭✭✭IncultaWolf wrote: »ItsNotLiving wrote: »CoE is still one of the best masteries in the game even after the nerfs.
Yes I'm going to keep using it on my werewolf.
With static not being available you dont get many great choices for class mastery on sorc as a ww. Going necro would fix the sustain and the healing on pound is basically same as old CoE but unlike CoE it can't crit so even with the nerfs, basically the same. Problem is necro doesnt have any good class masteries or any good passives for damage for a ww so it would really lack damage.
I think best option overall is going dk for the newly buffed landslide and its class mastery counterpart and probably resolute defense. The sustain you gotta fix with sets and thats rough even with chain and a sustain set like essence thief but overall its the best option imo.
Mind you even with all that, your healing will be worse than before and your sustain will be worse than before because CoE was absolutely crutching ww but between the extra healing class passive and the extra healing from class mastery, should be better than nothing.Edited by acanca on 25 August 2026 07:250 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »
That was a joke on their part. They’re referring to how many on the forums clearly wish to return to ‘the old days’ in some sort of ‘call-to-skill’ completely disregarding that the game has drastically changed and that could never happen ‘for the better’.
In other words, a spin on ‘calling for changes’ just because ‘it shouldn’t be that way based on a definition artificially created for ‘skillful gameplay’.Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 13:11Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Tbh balance is pretty much fine atm, it used to be way worse in the past. Arc, cro, nb, warden, plar cpuld have some small buffs and adjustments and we’d be in a good spot to await reworks.
Zos have made it clear they don’t want to do much changes until the reworks, so we need the meta to stabilize in a relatively good condition that can last until the reworks are done. And that means no put of the blue nerfs by half a value, no sweeping changes. Ppl always keep asking for nerfs, doesn’t matter what it is or if they are needed at all, if it gets nerfed they simply find a new scapegoat, this path doesn’t lead anywhere.Edited by Zyaneth_Bal on 25 August 2026 13:050 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Tbh balance is pretty much fine atm, it used to be way worse in the past. Arc, cro, nb, warden, plar cpuld have some small buffs and adjustments and we’d be in a good spot to await reworks.
Zos have made it clear they don’t want to do much changes until the reworks, so we need the meta to stabilize in a relatively good condition that can last until the reworks are done. And that means no put of the blue nerfs by half a value, no sweeping changes. Ppl always keep asking for nerfs, doesn’t matter what it is or if they are needed at all, if it gets nerfed they simply find a new scapegoat, this path doesn’t lead anywhere.
I disagree, some things like streak should rightfully be adjusted before the ‘current state’ is further cemented in some haphazard identity.
Look no further than Core-of-Flame to see how these things are conceptually and nearly unchanging with the devs now despite active calling for change (20% nerf xD)Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 14:36Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Tbh balance is pretty much fine atm, it used to be way worse in the past. Arc, cro, nb, warden, plar cpuld have some small buffs and adjustments and we’d be in a good spot to await reworks.
Zos have made it clear they don’t want to do much changes until the reworks, so we need the meta to stabilize in a relatively good condition that can last until the reworks are done. And that means no put of the blue nerfs by half a value, no sweeping changes. Ppl always keep asking for nerfs, doesn’t matter what it is or if they are needed at all, if it gets nerfed they simply find a new scapegoat, this path doesn’t lead anywhere.
I disagree, some things like streak should rightfully be adjusted before the ‘current state’ is further cemented in some haphazard identity.
Look no further than Core-of-Flame to see how these things are conceptually and neatly unchanging with the devs now despite active calling for change (20% nerf xD)
You haven’t even mentioned streak until coe got nerfed, now switched to the next target just like I said. Streak has been this way longer than you have played the game, it’s not just “current state”1 -
NovelliESO✭✭✭✭I agree, balance right now for the most part is fine. There are some obvious differences in classes, like DK and Sorc still being stronger, but they are both getting nerfs this PTS patch and if they still overperform I hope they get further nerfs, but like I have mentioned before, it should be done slowly. The other classes that are not as strong at the moment are getting refreshes, however slow that may be, they are still coming. The only issue I have with balance as of the next PTS patch, which honestly isn't a huge deal it's just odd, is abilities that scale off max HP. The shield nerfs will make cyro much more enjoyable but I don't mind shields being hit a little harder. Regardless, I don't see a single PvP change from live to PTS that I don't agree with, it all looks good. You can argue they should do more, but them getting all those issues right and targeting the most egregious overperforming classes and abilities is good to me.1
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acanca✭✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »I agree, balance right now for the most part is fine. There are some obvious differences in classes, like DK and Sorc still being stronger, but they are both getting nerfs this PTS patch and if they still overperform I hope they get further nerfs, but like I have mentioned before, it should be done slowly. The other classes that are not as strong at the moment are getting refreshes, however slow that may be, they are still coming. The only issue I have with balance as of the next PTS patch, which honestly isn't a huge deal it's just odd, is abilities that scale off max HP. The shield nerfs will make cyro much more enjoyable but I don't mind shields being hit a little harder. Regardless, I don't see a single PvP change from live to PTS that I don't agree with, it all looks good. You can argue they should do more, but them getting all those issues right and targeting the most egregious overperforming classes and abilities is good to me.
They honestly did way more than i thought they would this pts cycle. The meta should hopefully be more diverse now. Fingers crossed.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Tbh balance is pretty much fine atm, it used to be way worse in the past. Arc, cro, nb, warden, plar cpuld have some small buffs and adjustments and we’d be in a good spot to await reworks.
Zos have made it clear they don’t want to do much changes until the reworks, so we need the meta to stabilize in a relatively good condition that can last until the reworks are done. And that means no put of the blue nerfs by half a value, no sweeping changes. Ppl always keep asking for nerfs, doesn’t matter what it is or if they are needed at all, if it gets nerfed they simply find a new scapegoat, this path doesn’t lead anywhere.
I disagree, some things like streak should rightfully be adjusted before the ‘current state’ is further cemented in some haphazard identity.
Look no further than Core-of-Flame to see how these things are conceptually and neatly unchanging with the devs now despite active calling for change (20% nerf xD)
You haven’t even mentioned streak until coe got nerfed, now switched to the next target just like I said. Streak has been this way longer than you have played the game, it’s not just “current state”
Overpowered concepts don't exist in a vacuum. I'm also saying that they should nerf CoE more if the goal was to properly affect sustain in a way that requires you 'use a sustain set' as their nerfs have certifiably not achieved the goal.
Beyond this, I did not create the streak thread but simply agree with many of its points along with several others on the thread.
You can say CoE in Tandem with streak is the problem but I believe that CoE has simply highlighted a problem that has existed for a long time (a very unique and highly overloaded singular skill that allows the user multiple avenues for 'offense', 'defense', and 'mobility') that could easily serve to have one of its less identifying and more dual-ended features (the CC which works very well offensively, defensively, without an AoE cap, and one that can be used 'on the go') reigned in ever so slightly (i.e. no request is being made to hinder the mobility largely in that thread).Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 14:11Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭what was the point in the class refreshments if people could not wait for them all to be done, WW and DK get done and there are mass riots even though people know other classes were coming, warden already got sacked for a refreshmen so we can believe nothing after now in the class refreshes will be as planned1
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Daoin✭✭✭✭✭..........please bring back post edit..........
everyone with half a brain can understand what the warden delay actually is without them needing to spell it out or make somthing polite up0 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭..........please bring back post edit..........
everyone with half a brain can understand what the warden delay actually is without them needing to spell it out or make somthing polite up
You can edit posts. The gear might just be invis for your browser like it is for mine. It's right next to the post number. Just hover the area and your mouse should change
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭just that little triangle
i think alot have the same problem
So if you go to the top, your point should change in icon when you hover over the correct area where 'edit' is normally display.
Drafts are also not working although I'm sure fewer have noticed that.Edited by Wuuffyy on 25 August 2026 14:31Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0