Streak needs a CC nerf

XVestigeXx · 12:54AM

Yeah everyone is a sorc now that dk and ww are getting toned down a bit and everyone is constantly streaking stunning everyone in an aoe regardless of block or roll dodge. Its so annoying Ive had to start running immovability pots. Zos, can you make the stun aspect have to be targetable or something? I am sick of it most broken skill better then defensive ults

Vaqual · 1:00AM

HelloPlayers wrote: »

They should make the ability a ground-targeted ability like Mist Form and have it CC around the landing location.

That would preserve Streak's identity as a mobility skill while making the CC itself something you actually have to aim and position properly. You'd still get the massive mobility, but you wouldn't also get a giant AoE CC covering everything along your entire path.

It would also give the player much more control over where the Streak lands, which would make Streak more reliable on uneven terrain—something that has already been brought up as one of the frustrations with the current version.

That seems like a much healthier way to separate the mobility from the CC while still keeping Streak's identity intact.

Mist Form is not in a serviceable state with the current ground targeting. There are some severe problems with player positioning between player clients and the server, where the ability can fail to execute, misposition the player, or have extreme input lag in some instances. While I think the mechanical handling of Mist Form is quite cool this way, the technical execution of this design is just not suitable for the game as it is.
We should definitely conclude that this is not a healthy solution for Streak.

hoangdz · 2:21AM

Notice how @React said the same thing as I did about countering Streak, then added a couple more strategies for good measure? He's not even a Sorc main btw.

The counterplays exist, and they are effective. There is no need to nerf something that clearly has counterplay.

Radiate77 · 2:35AM

I would love if Mistform & Arcanist Portal didn’t completely bug out every other time you went to activate them on uneven terrain.

Four_Fingers · 2:44AM

Anybody else ever accidently streak off a keep wall right into the lap of the other alliance?

MeridiaFavorsMe · 3:14AM

hoangdz wrote: »

Notice how @React said the same thing as I did about countering Streak, then added a couple more strategies for good measure? He's not even a Sorc main btw.

The counterplays exist, and they are effective. There is no need to nerf something that clearly has counterplay.

You're seriously citing a list of "counterplay" that doesn't even work as described and then acting like that settles the argument?

The wall example is flat-out wrong. Standing against a wall does not stop Streak from stunning you. You still get hit by the CC. The Sorc not being able to travel past you doesn't somehow make you immune to the stun.

The rest of the list is essentially "move around and hope the Sorc misses." That's not counterplay. That's the complete absence of counterplay. Hoping your opponent makes a mistake is not a defensive mechanic. If your entire strategy depends on the other player failing to land their ability, then you've provided exactly zero counterplay to the ability itself.

By that standard, every ability in the game has "counterplay." Just tell people to move around randomly and pray the opponent misses. That's not a serious argument for balance.

So no, you haven't demonstrated that Streak has meaningful counterplay. You've demonstrated that you can sometimes avoid being hit if the Sorc screws up—and you've repeated a wall strategy that doesn't even prevent the stun in the first place.

If your best defense of Streak is "hope the Sorc misses," then you're not demonstrating that Streak has counterplay. You're demonstrating exactly why people are asking for counterplay to be added.

And if this is the best evidence you have that Streak is balanced, you're making the argument for a Streak nerf far better than I could.

Alchimiste1 · 4:10AM

@MeridiaFavorsMe Putting yourself next to a wall or rock isn't supposed to cancel out a stun. You do it so that if they do streak you, they end up right next to you. It's the same logic as the momentum jumping example. If you are chasing down a sorc and they streak through you constantly when you try and stay on them, you can try and time it so instead of going forward you move backwards so they streak and end up right next to you. The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak. It's just about putting yourself in the best position to line up a combo. Honestly, I'm pretty sure you know this too. I feel like you are just ignoring that because the less experienced players in the forums or even devs reading this won't consider that.

Streak is a strong skill and serves a lot of purposes, but I don't really see it creating any particularly problematic circumstances when it's used offensively for the stun. The Streak stun can guarantee an unblocked Curse, but Curse itself doesn't hit particularly hard compared to other delayed burst skills. Frags also has a travel time, meaning you have an opportunity to CC break and roll dodge after being hit by Streak.

So while Streak is undoubtedly powerful, I don't think the offensive stun itself is creating the kind of problem that warrants changing the skill. The only thing I would maybe change is the cost so people can't streak 8 times back-to-back.

Radiate77 · 4:15AM

Yeah, Streak stunning on activation prevents gap closers from doing their job. In what world of balance is it considered well design to have a skill bypass its counters?

Arguing for Streak to stun on cast is akin to arguing for Polar Wind to stun on cast, for Concealed Weapon to auto-block or burst heal when casting, or to have unpurgeable DoTs, or CC to ignore immunity.

Look at anything overperforming in this game, and they all share the same pattern as rule breakers or skills that actively prevent counterplay.

Like it or not, Streak is one them.

hoangdz · 4:37AM

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

The wall example is flat-out wrong. Standing against a wall does not stop Streak from stunning you. You still get hit by the CC. The Sorc not being able to travel past you doesn't somehow make you immune to the stun.

This is a clear-cut case of twisting words. When did he say it does not stop Streak from stunning him? This is his quote, bolded for easier reference:

React wrote: »

I like to counterplay streak in a few ways - momentum jumping backwards when I know a sorc will streak through/towards me, to place myself at the position they will land in. Moving frequently to either side of them to increase the chance they'll miss the ability. Positioning myself near walls or other terrain features so they can't travel past me if they want to stun me with it. Casting sprint in between every ability to constantly remain close to them, forcing them to waste stuns on me by repositioning, giving me free CC immunity from their mobility skill.

He literally said he positions himself near walls or other terrain features to prevent the Sorc from traveling past him. Nowhere did he state that it would nullify Streak's CC.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

The rest of the list is essentially "move around and hope the Sorc misses." That's not counterplay. That's the complete absence of counterplay. Hoping your opponent makes a mistake is not a defensive mechanic. If your entire strategy depends on the other player failing to land their ability, then you've provided exactly zero counterplay to the ability itself.

By that standard, every ability in the game has "counterplay." Just tell people to move around randomly and pray the opponent misses. That's not a serious argument for balance.

This is a misleading argument. Some of these counterplays are limited to Streak and short-ranged CCs. The movement-based counterplays mentioned by React, such as:

- Backward momentum jumping
- Moving sideways

do not work against targeted CCs like Javelin, Rune Cage, and Fossilize. If you tried to perform these maneuvers, you would 100% get CCed unless you were already out of range, which is questionable considering Rune Cage and Javelin have a 28m and 22m effective distance, respectively. You'd already have to be a ranged player to dance around the edge of these CC abilities, at which point Streak should never be an issue for you to begin with...

Only Fossilize has a shorter range than Streak, which makes momentum jumping backwards a legitimate counter too, as it creates enough distance for you to avoid getting hit by the follow-up HoF + Whip combo.

I do concede that the other methods aren't true counter, but rather ways to diminish the effectiveness of Streak. Nonetheless, they are still valid strategies similar to how line of sighting your character's hitbox behind large objects prevents Javelin/Fossilize to acquire a target lock. Momentum jumping to place yourself at the end of their Streak location or positioning yourself near walls so they can't travel past you allow immediate counterpressure since your opponent's character is now in a more vulnerable position. Casting sprint in between abilities to remain close to them is also a good way to keep up with a mobile Sorc.

And yes, every ability in the game has some form of counterplay, and they do not depend on your opponent making mistakes. Warden Charm, one of the most obnoxious CCs in the game, technically still has 2 counters - snare immunity and movement speed. While I do agree that some CCs require more effort to counter than others, that still does not confirm the counterplays do not exist as you claimed.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

You're seriously citing a list of "counterplay" that doesn't even work as described and then acting like that settles the argument?

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

So no, you haven't demonstrated that Streak has meaningful counterplay. You've demonstrated that you can sometimes avoid being hit if the Sorc screws up—and you've repeated a wall strategy that doesn't even prevent the stun in the first place.

If your best defense of Streak is "hope the Sorc misses," then you're not demonstrating that Streak has counterplay. You're demonstrating exactly why people are asking for counterplay to be added.

And if this is the best evidence you have that Streak is balanced, you're making the argument for a Streak nerf far better than I could.

These measures do work for me, React, and other people. I mean, a lot of people could make the case that Shattering Rocks or Rune Cage's delay are not sufficient enough because they still get CCed, and I personally still get CCed by them sometimes if I do not pay attention. Yet, there are addons tracking these abilities right from the moment they are casted. I personally use a Shattering Rocks tracker and it has massively improved my ability to avoid the CC.

You and other people are also looking at this from a narrowed view. DKs and Sorc are only able to cast multiple Shatterings/Streaks because Heart of Flame and Conservation of Energy provide unmatched level of sustain. I do believe that increasing the base cost of Streak to account for Conservation is a good balance suggestion, as it would address the rare cases of Streak spamming, while still allowing build diversity.

hoangdz · 4:43AM

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@MeridiaFavorsMe Putting yourself next to a wall or rock isn't supposed to cancel out a stun. You do it so that if they do streak you, they end up right next to you. It's the same logic as the momentum jumping example. If you are chasing down a sorc and they streak through you constantly when you try and stay on them, you can try and time it so instead of going forward you move backwards so they streak and end up right next to you. The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak. It's just about putting yourself in the best position to line up a combo. Honestly, I'm pretty sure you know this too. I feel like you are just ignoring that because the less experienced players in the forums or even devs reading this won't consider that.

Streak is a strong skill and serves a lot of purposes, but I don't really see it creating any particularly problematic circumstances when it's used offensively for the stun. The Streak stun can guarantee an unblocked Curse, but Curse itself doesn't hit particularly hard compared to other delayed burst skills. Frags also has a travel time, meaning you have an opportunity to CC break and roll dodge after being hit by Streak.

So while Streak is undoubtedly powerful, I don't think the offensive stun itself is creating the kind of problem that warrants changing the skill. The only thing I would maybe change is the cost so people can't streak 8 times back-to-back.

This is what I feel this thread is about. Several people arguing against Streak in this thread are clearly seasoned players and would have known how to counter Streak. I wonder if they are intentionally ignoring this aspect to present a case against Streak because from my experience as well as other veteran players, it's pretty damn obvious.

Personofsecrets · 5:04AM

Streak should be removed from the game as it's a nuisance skill. If we are going to have nuisance skills, then bring back blinding flashes, the evasion mechanic, talons that roots over and over, and reflective wings. Streak is just as loaded as those abilities.

CannedChicken · 12:09PM

There is no real counterplay to Streak. Avoiding it by moving unpredictably or hoping the Sorc misses isn't counterplay. That's relying on the other player making a mistake. Once Streak actually connects, the CC is unblockable and undodgeable.

You guys keep acting like Cyrodiil is a 1v1 arena where a Sorc is using Streak specifically against you. It's an AoE CC being used against groups of players, and in a large-scale fight a Sorc can easily catch multiple people at once. Despite all your supposed "seasoned player" experience, you keep describing ways to avoid getting hit, which don't actually work, instead of identifying an actual defensive interaction with the CC. That's the entire problem.

HelloPlayers · 12:42PM

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak.

Just found out from a seasoned player that when YOU get CCed the person who CCed you is vulnerable. So your strategy to counter streak is to get CCed? Good counterplay.

Just found out today the best way to avoid losing all your money is to go bankrupt so you don't have any money left to lose.

Your description of how Sorc streak works sounds like a meme. It reads like some roleplaying fantasy description of how the game works, written by an intern. In reality this skill just always lands and obviously the person on the other end of the CC is the vulnerable one.

Luneca · 12:54PM

hoangdz wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@MeridiaFavorsMe Putting yourself next to a wall or rock isn't supposed to cancel out a stun. You do it so that if they do streak you, they end up right next to you. It's the same logic as the momentum jumping example. If you are chasing down a sorc and they streak through you constantly when you try and stay on them, you can try and time it so instead of going forward you move backwards so they streak and end up right next to you. The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak. It's just about putting yourself in the best position to line up a combo. Honestly, I'm pretty sure you know this too. I feel like you are just ignoring that because the less experienced players in the forums or even devs reading this won't consider that.

Streak is a strong skill and serves a lot of purposes, but I don't really see it creating any particularly problematic circumstances when it's used offensively for the stun. The Streak stun can guarantee an unblocked Curse, but Curse itself doesn't hit particularly hard compared to other delayed burst skills. Frags also has a travel time, meaning you have an opportunity to CC break and roll dodge after being hit by Streak.

So while Streak is undoubtedly powerful, I don't think the offensive stun itself is creating the kind of problem that warrants changing the skill. The only thing I would maybe change is the cost so people can't streak 8 times back-to-back.

This is what I feel this thread is about. Several people arguing against Streak in this thread are clearly seasoned players and would have known how to counter Streak. I wonder if they are intentionally ignoring this aspect to present a case against Streak because from my experience as well as other veteran players, it's pretty damn obvious.

Or maybe it actually is a problem to have an AoE unlockable and undodgeable stun that does damage and moves someone out of range. Just because you can sometimes kill the person doing it in PvP doesn't mean it's balanced. Also, pretty sure all of the people that defended it are using it or have used in a subclass build.

Yeah, not exactly biased at all. But let me stop or sorc will get nerfed. I need streak for the next patch now that cloak is getting nerfed. I can be honest about it!

BardokRedSnow · 2:04PM

hoangdz wrote: »

Notice how @React said the same thing as I did about countering Streak, then added a couple more strategies for good measure? He's not even a Sorc main btw.

he also said the same thing I did about adding more cost at its base, so do you agree thats a good compromise also?

hoangdz · 3:33PM

HelloPlayers wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak.

Just found out from a seasoned player that when YOU get CCed the person who CCed you is vulnerable. So your strategy to counter streak is to get CCed? Good counterplay.

Just found out today the best way to avoid losing all your money is to go bankrupt so you don't have any money left to lose.

Your description of how Sorc streak works sounds like a meme. It reads like some roleplaying fantasy description of how the game works, written by an intern. In reality this skill just always lands and obviously the person on the other end of the CC is the vulnerable one.

I am not sure why you felt the need to make a satirical comment mocking @Alchimiste1 , but I think you should really consider the possibility that he knows more about Streak and Sorc in general than what you described, especially when multiple seasoned players, including @React who is very well-known on the forums as a neutral, experienced, and top tier PvPer, have confirmed those countermeasures against Streak.

You need to understand that unlike DK, Templar, or Necro, Sorc does not possess strong lingering HoTs. Apart from Vigor, which is universal, Sorc only has four usable in-class healing sources, namely:

1. Critical Surge - a pseudo HoT with a critical damage proc condition and a fixed tooltip that only scales off % modifiers
2. Dark Deal - a pseudo burst heal with a 1.2s channel time and a fixed tooltip that only scales off % modifiers
3.Vibrant Shroud - an AoE burst heal with similar tooltip to Blessing of Restoration
4. Blood Magic - a HP/% modifier scaling heal that procs off casting Dark Magic abilities, and with CoE, proccing off every ability with a cost, core combat actions included

Out of these four abilities, Critical Surge is the only thing close enough to a HoT, and its mechanical requirement is that you have to constantly deal critical damage. Compared to a DK or a Templar who often have 2-3 HoTs rolling at once, Sorc is much more vulnerable during its offensive window because it does not have several layers of healing effects to mitigate damage. Even with CoE contributing significantly to Sorc's survivability, it is still not adequate because this class mastery only procs per GCD and does not function as a true HoT.

This is the core premise of Alchimiste's argument. Good players will absolutely take advantage of this weakness and counter-burst during Sorc's own offense. Yes, that is a real strategy that top-tier players utilize to punish their opponents, and you will likely get the same answer elsewhere.

As for his description of how Sorc streak works, I can wholeheartedly confirm its validity with my years of experience as a Sorc main fighting against other Sorcs and classes.

If you truly doubt his stance, I urge you to spend a couple days dueling players at a dedicated dueling spot like Stormhaven on NA servers or Alikir on EU. You will often see seasoned players attempt the same counterplays against Sorcs as Alchimiste had described.

Alchimiste1 · 3:36PM

HelloPlayers wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The reason you want to do that is because generally sorc are pretty vulnerable after they streak.

Just found out from a seasoned player that when YOU get CCed the person who CCed you is vulnerable. So your strategy to counter streak is to get CCed? Good counterplay.

Just found out today the best way to avoid losing all your money is to go bankrupt so you don't have any money left to lose.

Your description of how Sorc streak works sounds like a meme. It reads like some roleplaying fantasy description of how the game works, written by an intern. In reality this skill just always lands and obviously the person on the other end of the CC is the vulnerable one.

You're one of the players I was talking about. You think you understand the game, but you really don't. The fact that your comment actually has people agreeing with you also proves my point that a lot of the forum users won't understand.

Daoin · 3:37PM

sorcs can streak and dk's got good looks

Wuuffyy · 3:38PM

hoangdz wrote: »

If you truly doubt his stance, I urge you to spend a couple days dueling players at a dedicated dueling spot like Stormhaven on NA servers or Alikir on EU. You will often see seasoned players attempt the same counterplays against Sorcs as Alchimiste had described.

Dueling (flag-down) has to be one of the worst environments for sorc and the most unrealistic of their scenarios. Nothing is stopping a sorc streaking miles away without issue either currently on live or PTS.

They can do this until you stop chasing, turn around, and do damage from range and/or restart the process all over again should they choose (and trust me, the ones built correctly do damage too).

They do this but then ball groups also use streak as a method of 'group stunning' against other ball groups to line up burst and damage especially without AoE caps; this is done notably without significant risk to the user. I'm sorry, but I simply have to disagree no matter how many 'experts' you try and draw in 'on the dueling scene'; streak NEEDS an adjustment of some kind.

Daoin · 3:42PM

sorc being taken of the field for the next nerf

Daoin · 3:43PM

streaking violation

hoangdz · 3:54PM

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

If you truly doubt his stance, I urge you to spend a couple days dueling players at a dedicated dueling spot like Stormhaven on NA servers or Alikir on EU. You will often see seasoned players attempt the same counterplays against Sorcs as Alchimiste had described.

Dueling (flag-down) has to be one of the worst environments for sorc and the most unrealistic of their scenarios. Nothing is stopping a sorc streaking miles away without issue either currently on live or PTS.

They can do this until you stop chasing, turn around, and do damage from range all over again should they choose (and trust me, the ones built correctly DO damage too).

They do this but then ball groups also use streak as a method of 'group stunning' against other ball groups to line up burst and damage especially without AoE caps; this is done notably without significant risk to the user. I'm sorry, but I simply have to disagree no matter how many 'experts' you try and draw in 'on the dueling scene'.

If a Sorc Streaks away you really do not have to worry about anything though. He is not killing you if he Streaks into the sunset, and even if he only Streaks twice, he has already put himself out of position for any meaningful retaliation, so why bother?

As for your ball group example, I do not see why that is an issue. A dedicated RoA puller with Contingency + Warden Charm works much better to funnel groups for an organized ult bomb. Streak is not even needed here. I personally played a bombard/disruptor Sorc when I still did group PvP and, more often than not, I actually used Streak defensively to peel people off my group rather than offensively CCing them. That means putting myself in vulnerable positions where I have to be in the thick of the zerg spamming bombard/immobilization while my teammates try to escape.

So I do not understand why you are so adamant that Streak is overperforming. I would argue that Bombard spam is actually worse because it constantly checks your opponent's stamina and lets you safely sit back in your group.

hoangdz · 4:05PM

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Notice how @React said the same thing as I did about countering Streak, then added a couple more strategies for good measure? He's not even a Sorc main btw.

he also said the same thing I did about adding more cost at its base, so do you agree thats a good compromise also?

I would agree that it is a good compromise given CoE's sustain power. In fact, I would be fine with a damage nerf and a base cost increase if that could satisfy people.

I do not think Streak deserves a mechanical rework though, and my stance is still firm on that matter.

Wuuffyy · 4:12PM

hoangdz wrote: »

So I do not understand why you are so adamant that Streak is overperforming. I would argue that Bombard spam is actually worse because it constantly checks your opponent's stamina and lets you safely sit back in your group.

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Notice how @React said the same thing as I did about countering Streak, then added a couple more strategies for good measure? He's not even a Sorc main btw.

he also said the same thing I did about adding more cost at its base, so do you agree thats a good compromise also?

I would agree that it is a good compromise given CoE's sustain power. In fact, I would be fine with a damage nerf and a base cost increase if that could satisfy people.

I do not think Streak deserves a mechanical rework though, and my stance is still firm on that matter.

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

SneaK · 5:07PM

Sorc is currently competitive with DK and WW, which is what we want… instead of asking for nerfs we need to be asking for our other classes to become competitive again.

Teeba_Shei · 5:14PM

It's pretty telling that the strongest CC in the game is attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That's an absurd amount of utility for one ability.

Even veteran players in this thread have admitted that there is no counterplay to the CC itself, especially in large-scale PvP. Once Streak connects, you just have to eat the stun. You can't block it, you can't dodge it, and there's no target cap limiting how many people it can hit.

An ability can be strong without being unhealthy, but when the strongest mobility in the game is also carrying the strongest CC with virtually no defensive interaction, it's reasonable to ask for some adjustment.