Turtle_Bot wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

This is the direct result of Ball Groups. I'd rather see the game randomly assign Groups on top of this. Even then, the population is so low it's likely people would just end up with the same people over and over again anyway. This is a good change. I like the idea that Ball Groups and Guilds should be worried about Solo Players. I was surprised to see this, but it tells me Zos is finally coming to grips with an 11 year problem.

Not every group is a ball group. This hurts pug groups while doing little to hinder comped groups.

Changes like this make it seem like nobody at ZOS plays PvP or they'd have a better understanding or what changes will and will not work to achieve balance.

This change will directly hit ball groups more then PuGs because PuGs aren't the ones abusing shield stacking mechanics the same way ball groups are and any claim to the contrary is just completely disingenuous and/or completely misinformed.

Sure, the good ball groups will adapt and change their strategies, but none will be able to rely on having 100k shields up at all times anymore to be essentially immortal while they steamroll their way across the map. They will have to use skill, movement, coordination, communication and other defensive mechanics to survive, or significantly lower their damage output to compensate, and doing any of this will allow other counterplay options in the game the chance to do their intended jobs without needing to try and push through 100k worth of constantly refreshing shields.

LadyGP wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

This is the direct result of Ball Groups. I'd rather see the game randomly assign Groups on top of this. Even then, the population is so low it's likely people would just end up with the same people over and over again anyway. This is a good change. I like the idea that Ball Groups and Guilds should be worried about Solo Players. I was surprised to see this, but it tells me Zos is finally coming to grips with an 11 year problem.

Not every group is a ball group. This hurts pug groups while doing little to hinder comped groups.

Changes like this make it seem like nobody at ZOS plays PvP or they'd have a better understanding or what changes will and will not work to achieve balance.

You're right, not every ball group is a ball group... but ball groups are killing PVP.

How do you tell a top 3 ball group apart from a 12 person pug group? If you asked me and gave me 2 seconds to answer I wouldn't be able to.

So yes, the 12 person pug group will 100% suffer from this chance... and we have to sacrifice a few for the majority here. Sorry boucha... Until Zos figures out a way to identify or reign in the insane burst dps, insane shields, insane healing, from these top groups and bring it back to normal levels (where they can still be the toughest groups in cyro mind you.. just not god tier).. I have zero problem with 12 person groups getting hit across the board.

That is how bad the top 3 ball groups are killing cyro right now.

Luneca wrote: »

HP scaling shields are a bad mechanic and need removal IMO. There is absolutely nothing skillful about a group of people spamming one skill that gives them absolute immunity from damage except in "ideal" conditions where it can be countered.

Groups were already powerful stacking HP long before shields came into play. Scribing and the changes that ZOS has made over the last 5 years brought them up to another level.

Having a complete defensive solution with the click of a button isn't skill nor skill-based at all. It's a systematic advantage that creates a gulf that cannot realistically be overcome with skill at any point in time.

And this is why it's getting nerfed. Becasue the SYSTEM does not have a proper counter to HP stacking in the first place already, and with shields added, there isn't any counter at all.

For anyone in a ball group that thinks it isn't an issue, why don't you just try a simple task: go and wipe another ball group stacking shields and HP, except do it while you aren't with your group and alone in a "zerg".

We all know what's going to happen. You aren't going to do it. And you aren't going to do it because it isn't something experience can overcome: either the right combination is present or it's not. And when it's not, then there is nothing that can be done with skill at all versus shield stacking.

I know it's hard for players to admit and accept that they've been carried by a balance issue, but reality is not something you can always avert your eyes from just because it's inconvienient.

Making the argument that you spent time optimizing is a pointless one when no one knows the validity of that statement. I spent over 7/10 of my time on the game optimising builds and finding broken things, does that mean ZOS should never nerf my builds and let me cheese with things like that recursive static reverbation build that just got cut? No way.

Skill arguments? Come on. Buddy, please explain how it's skillful for someone to play in a way that has ZERO real counter and every advantage possible versus those that don't? The game is inherently unbalanced at its core and when ZOS tries to adjust a mechanic that is problematic, you want to bring up the skill argument? Explain how it's skillful. Because no one outside of the people using said mechanic to overpower and win without any real threat of losing thinks it is skillful.

Lastly, the "40-man zerg" argument falls flat on its face for a number of reasons. Here's the biggest one: because there is strength in numbers, regardless of the method. <-- This same argument is used all the time by ball groups to justify group sets and advantages gained from things that should only be in PvE, so let's use that exact logic right now.

There's strength in numbers. It's up to you to use SKILL to overcome that. Now ballgroups have an avenue to demonstrate it to everyone the absolute pinnacle of skill they've always gone on and on about on these forums, and instead we have a call to nerf everyone else so the ball groups stay relatively more powerful than everyone else?

No way. Complete disagree.

hollow_winds wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

HP scaling shields are a bad mechanic and need removal IMO. There is absolutely nothing skillful about a group of people spamming one skill that gives them absolute immunity from damage except in "ideal" conditions where it can be countered.

Groups were already powerful stacking HP long before shields came into play. Scribing and the changes that ZOS has made over the last 5 years brought them up to another level.

Having a complete defensive solution with the click of a button isn't skill nor skill-based at all. It's a systematic advantage that creates a gulf that cannot realistically be overcome with skill at any point in time.

And this is why it's getting nerfed. Becasue the SYSTEM does not have a proper counter to HP stacking in the first place already, and with shields added, there isn't any counter at all.

For anyone in a ball group that thinks it isn't an issue, why don't you just try a simple task: go and wipe another ball group stacking shields and HP, except do it while you aren't with your group and alone in a "zerg".

We all know what's going to happen. You aren't going to do it. And you aren't going to do it because it isn't something experience can overcome: either the right combination is present or it's not. And when it's not, then there is nothing that can be done with skill at all versus shield stacking.

I know it's hard for players to admit and accept that they've been carried by a balance issue, but reality is not something you can always avert your eyes from just because it's inconvienient.

Making the argument that you spent time optimizing is a pointless one when no one knows the validity of that statement. I spent over 7/10 of my time on the game optimising builds and finding broken things, does that mean ZOS should never nerf my builds and let me cheese with things like that recursive static reverbation build that just got cut? No way.

Skill arguments? Come on. Buddy, please explain how it's skillful for someone to play in a way that has ZERO real counter and every advantage possible versus those that don't? The game is inherently unbalanced at its core and when ZOS tries to adjust a mechanic that is problematic, you want to bring up the skill argument? Explain how it's skillful. Because no one outside of the people using said mechanic to overpower and win without any real threat of losing thinks it is skillful.

Lastly, the "40-man zerg" argument falls flat on its face for a number of reasons. Here's the biggest one: because there is strength in numbers, regardless of the method. <-- This same argument is used all the time by ball groups to justify group sets and advantages gained from things that should only be in PvE, so let's use that exact logic right now.

There's strength in numbers. It's up to you to use SKILL to overcome that. Now ballgroups have an avenue to demonstrate it to everyone the absolute pinnacle of skill they've always gone on and on about on these forums, and instead we have a call to nerf everyone else so the ball groups stay relatively more powerful than everyone else?

No way. Complete disagree.

Fantastic write up and I agree with all of this. It's honestly pretty absurd how much HP, heals and shields these groups can have right now. Shields are catching a nerf next patch and I think it's long overdue. Before the BG players swarm this thread and make crazy assumptions, no, I'm not advocating for a solo, uncomped player to wipe an entire group. It's not realistic.

However...BG's should face more of a threat than they currently do. They know that with the current meta they run, siege is useless, negates (unless stacked and placed correctly) are useless and they can run amuck basically being unkillable. Years ago when ballgroups first started popping up, they were at least easier to counter and couldn't withstand everything that would be thrown at them like the groups we currently see in Cyrodiil

hollow_winds wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

I think many of you are pretty much still just arguing "no no no it's just... bad and stuff that good players in coordinated sets kill bad players in terrible builds!!!" and it honestly seems to be the only rebuttal here. it's funny because i agree that shields need a nerf, I'm only advocating that nerfs be across the board and applicable for all players, not only for the ones who take full advantage of the game's mechanics. if ZoS doesn't want a mechanic to exist, it should be removed or nerfed for all players. Having an MMO where people are chastised for playing in groups and taking full advantage of doing so is pretty asinine.

Better players and skilled groups are going to kill bad players and zerglings, that's how it is in every single game. stop arguing "but its for the sake of the health and population of the game!!!" because that is just cope, if people want to leave because they get farmed by better, more coordinated players, that is on them. that's not an issue that devs need to exist if all players are playing by the same rules. its going to happen in every single multiplayer game. stop trying to artificially raise the skill floor while simultaneously lowering the ceiling. There are 100% ways to kill ballgroups without being one already, you guys just don't care to take the time to get better and make the builds and learn how to play them. And I know that for a fact because I recognize a lot of the people in this thread from PCNA, and just to be honest you guys are really not in the same knowledge plane to make a coherent, logical argument.

Again, if you guys really believe being in a group is really just "durrr throw on a bunch of shields and we win!!!" then I encourage you to go try it out and let me know how it goes.

Literally no one here is arguing what you're implying. No one here is saying "bad solo players and pugs should wipe ballgroups", that's just you making insane assumptions out of thin air. In fact, quite a few people in this thread have openly said "skilled groups and players SHOULD wipe those pugs and solos" so your point has no merit there.

As one other poster here said, if you truly believe and I'll quote your own words "There are 100% ways to kill ballgroups without being one already" then please show us how you do it without your ballgroup. You should be able to do it solo while in a zerg, right?

"Again, if you guys really believe being in a group is really just "durrr throw on a bunch of shields and we win!!!" then I encourage you to go try it out and let me know how it goes." Gonna quote you here too as others have said in this thread and similar that in current day ball groups, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to hit a button for shields and survive. Ballgroups don't take a whole lot of skill currently compared to how BG's used to be back before the pull sets, shields and the meta sets these groups run now.

This thread is just silly as you've also made another thread asking for negates to be nerfed, both player based and NPC based. All it points to is "These things hinder my ball group, nerf them" when in reality, almost EVERY viable set designed to counter ball groups have been nerfed to some degree. Either adapt like the rest of us or struggle

hollow_winds wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

HP scaling shields are a bad mechanic and need removal IMO. There is absolutely nothing skillful about a group of people spamming one skill that gives them absolute immunity from damage except in "ideal" conditions where it can be countered.

Groups were already powerful stacking HP long before shields came into play. Scribing and the changes that ZOS has made over the last 5 years brought them up to another level.

Having a complete defensive solution with the click of a button isn't skill nor skill-based at all. It's a systematic advantage that creates a gulf that cannot realistically be overcome with skill at any point in time.

And this is why it's getting nerfed. Becasue the SYSTEM does not have a proper counter to HP stacking in the first place already, and with shields added, there isn't any counter at all.

For anyone in a ball group that thinks it isn't an issue, why don't you just try a simple task: go and wipe another ball group stacking shields and HP, except do it while you aren't with your group and alone in a "zerg".

We all know what's going to happen. You aren't going to do it. And you aren't going to do it because it isn't something experience can overcome: either the right combination is present or it's not. And when it's not, then there is nothing that can be done with skill at all versus shield stacking.

I know it's hard for players to admit and accept that they've been carried by a balance issue, but reality is not something you can always avert your eyes from just because it's inconvienient.

Making the argument that you spent time optimizing is a pointless one when no one knows the validity of that statement. I spent over 7/10 of my time on the game optimising builds and finding broken things, does that mean ZOS should never nerf my builds and let me cheese with things like that recursive static reverbation build that just got cut? No way.

Skill arguments? Come on. Buddy, please explain how it's skillful for someone to play in a way that has ZERO real counter and every advantage possible versus those that don't? The game is inherently unbalanced at its core and when ZOS tries to adjust a mechanic that is problematic, you want to bring up the skill argument? Explain how it's skillful. Because no one outside of the people using said mechanic to overpower and win without any real threat of losing thinks it is skillful.

Lastly, the "40-man zerg" argument falls flat on its face for a number of reasons. Here's the biggest one: because there is strength in numbers, regardless of the method. <-- This same argument is used all the time by ball groups to justify group sets and advantages gained from things that should only be in PvE, so let's use that exact logic right now.

There's strength in numbers. It's up to you to use SKILL to overcome that. Now ballgroups have an avenue to demonstrate it to everyone the absolute pinnacle of skill they've always gone on and on about on these forums, and instead we have a call to nerf everyone else so the ball groups stay relatively more powerful than everyone else?

No way. Complete disagree.

Fantastic write up and I agree with all of this. It's honestly pretty absurd how much HP, heals and shields these groups can have right now. Shields are catching a nerf next patch and I think it's long overdue. Before the BG players swarm this thread and make crazy assumptions, no, I'm not advocating for a solo, uncomped player to wipe an entire group. It's not realistic.

However...BG's should face more of a threat than they currently do. They know that with the current meta they run, siege is useless, negates (unless stacked and placed correctly) are useless and they can run amuck basically being unkillable. Years ago when ballgroups first started popping up, they were at least easier to counter and couldn't withstand everything that would be thrown at them like the groups we currently see in Cyrodiil

literally nothing in Luneca's post is a good faith argument and shows how out of touch the average player is. I've seen solo players and small groups wipe entire 12 man coordinateds on regular occassions. I've done it myself. And it's funny youre arguing with me about skill because I know exactly who you are and you just aren't in a position to talk about anyone's skill, or how much time youve spent "optimizing your build"

hollow_winds wrote: »

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

I think many of you are pretty much still just arguing "no no no it's just... bad and stuff that good players in coordinated sets kill bad players in terrible builds!!!" and it honestly seems to be the only rebuttal here. it's funny because i agree that shields need a nerf, I'm only advocating that nerfs be across the board and applicable for all players, not only for the ones who take full advantage of the game's mechanics. if ZoS doesn't want a mechanic to exist, it should be removed or nerfed for all players. Having an MMO where people are chastised for playing in groups and taking full advantage of doing so is pretty asinine.

Better players and skilled groups are going to kill bad players and zerglings, that's how it is in every single game. stop arguing "but its for the sake of the health and population of the game!!!" because that is just cope, if people want to leave because they get farmed by better, more coordinated players, that is on them. that's not an issue that devs need to exist if all players are playing by the same rules. its going to happen in every single multiplayer game. stop trying to artificially raise the skill floor while simultaneously lowering the ceiling. There are 100% ways to kill ballgroups without being one already, you guys just don't care to take the time to get better and make the builds and learn how to play them. And I know that for a fact because I recognize a lot of the people in this thread from PCNA, and just to be honest you guys are really not in the same knowledge plane to make a coherent, logical argument.

Again, if you guys really believe being in a group is really just "durrr throw on a bunch of shields and we win!!!" then I encourage you to go try it out and let me know how it goes.

Literally no one here is arguing what you're implying. No one here is saying "bad solo players and pugs should wipe ballgroups", that's just you making insane assumptions out of thin air. In fact, quite a few people in this thread have openly said "skilled groups and players SHOULD wipe those pugs and solos" so your point has no merit there.

As one other poster here said, if you truly believe and I'll quote your own words "There are 100% ways to kill ballgroups without being one already" then please show us how you do it without your ballgroup. You should be able to do it solo while in a zerg, right?

"Again, if you guys really believe being in a group is really just "durrr throw on a bunch of shields and we win!!!" then I encourage you to go try it out and let me know how it goes." Gonna quote you here too as others have said in this thread and similar that in current day ball groups, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to hit a button for shields and survive. Ballgroups don't take a whole lot of skill currently compared to how BG's used to be back before the pull sets, shields and the meta sets these groups run now.

This thread is just silly as you've also made another thread asking for negates to be nerfed, both player based and NPC based. All it points to is "These things hinder my ball group, nerf them" when in reality, almost EVERY viable set designed to counter ball groups have been nerfed to some degree. Either adapt like the rest of us or struggle

Thank you for saying literally nothing but REEEEE and proving my point

Show us you wiping a ball group solo as you're claiming. All you're doing here is throwing out terrible, bad faith arguments and ignoring any kind of discussion here because anyone in this thread that disagrees with you is unskilled, out of touch, just needs to get good and etc etc...I'm not even sure what your point is anymore because you jump around making insane assumptions about everyone here all because they disagree with your original post, lol.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@LoganSpencer1

You mention in your post "small-to-mid-sized group" theorycrafting. A small to mid size group is effectively unaffected by the proposed changes.

Similarly 12m groups can just easily scale to 14m and run 2x7m or even 16m and run 2x8m and be effectively unmitigated with the current suggested change.

So I actually agree with you that targeting group size to inflict a general shield nerf is the wrong approach but not for the reasons you mention. (It should be targeting specifically 'group' shields and adjusting the scaling of HP based shields instead)

A bit about the states of groups -
Groups right now are stronger than they have ever been, the majority of groups invest almost 0 actual time in theorycrafting outside of logging other more successful groups and trying to run what they run as is evidenced by every group being convinced that they should run the same thing as everyone else.

Prior to the sticky HoT change there was basically 0 stamina healing and ground healing (the main healing spell) was removed by negate. You had to use your brain to counter and position in a way to mitigate this and plan movement in advance.
Now with sticky HoTs, Shields and hybridization meaning that Stam healing can be way more effective theres plenty of workarounds for negate. For the situation to be brought into balanced All HoTs and Shields should be removed if you are negated. If you're getting countered by negate spam you should simply theorycraft your way around it as all proficient groups would do in the past. (Earthgore, counter negates, stamina healing)

Additionally prior to Snow Treaders / Banner you used to have to have a 'rapid spammer' to remove snares and roots (or self cast Forward Momentum / Race against time). This was a player who was essentially 'useless' in terms of damage and healing meaning that you were always 1 player down (then count the player who was purge spamming similarly). With how much regen groups have now (Recovery convergence is just insane really) they don't even need someone stacking regen to cast rapids every 8s.

Groups have been progressively buffed patch after patch so its not surprising that people want them nerfed and ZOS unfortunately either doesn't understand the problems or doesn't want to.

LoganSpencer1 wrote: »

While it is widely agreed upon by high-end PvPers that damage shields need a rebalance, the current group-scaling approach on the PTS sets a dangerous precedent. Targeting damage shields based strictly on group size doesn't fix a balance issue—it actively penalizes player organization, skill expression, and optimization.

If shields are overperforming, they should receive a flat-value, absolute nerf for everyone. Here is why the current group-scaling model is a step in the wrong direction:

1. It Penalizes the Hours Invested in Optimization

High-end, coordinated groups do not just "win" by default. Behind every successful small-to-mid-sized group are dozens of hours spent:

Theorycrafting: Endlessly tweaking group compositions, gear sets, and skill bars.

Recruitment: Finding and vetting players who possess the mechanical skill and willingness to execute a specific role.

Log Review: Spending hours analyzing combat logs to fix positioning errors, resource management issues, and rotational gaps.

Shotcalling & Execution: Managing real-time battlefield positioning while coordinating up to 7 damage or support abilities to fire off at the exact same split-second. This level of synergy is a definitive skill in and of itself.

2. The Equity Illusion: Catering to the Skill Floor

The current scaling model attempts to create "equity" for casual players and uncoordinated zergs who refuse to put critical thought into their own builds or group synergy. Expecting a casual solo player or an uncoordinated group to compete with a tightly optimized team that treats PvP with high competitive seriousness is a fundamental misunderstanding of PvP progression. Highly optimized groups make up less than 1% of the total PvP population; systematically dismantling their toolkit just to appease the loudest voices on the forums harms the competitive health of Cyrodiil.

3. The Double Standard: The 40-Man Negate Carpet

The most glaring issue with this change is the blatant double standard regarding what is deemed "broken."

Coordinated Groups: Get hit with compounding penalties (previous HoT limits, and now Update 51's aggressive shield-scaling cap down to 60%).

Massive Zergs: Are continually allowed to stack health-scaling heals and abuse zero-skill tactics. A 40-man discord zerg carpet-bombing a zone with dozens of concurrent Negates—completely turning off game mechanics for everyone else—is treated as perfectly acceptable.

By tying the Battle Spirit shield cap to group size, ZOS is punishing coordination while actively rewarding numerical weight. If shields (or anything else) are mathematically overpowered, apply a flat-value nerf across the board. Make everyone play by the exact same baseline rules. Stop artificially raising the floor for uncoordinated play while introducing math ceilings designed to break the players who actually spent the time to master your game’s systems.