CannedChicken wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

streak is one of the few things u can use to drain a ball groups stam but the same people complaining about ball groups want to nerf the tools u can use to counter them

Yeah, you're absolutely wrong on this. You're not going to drain a competent ball group's stamina by throwing random CC at them. All you're doing is giving them free CC immunity and making it harder to actually kill them.

The effective ways to break a ball group are bombing them or pulling people out of formation with things like Chains, Silver Leash, and Frozen Gate. Randomly CCing the group actively works against both strategies by giving them immunity.

I always wondered why I was having such a hard time pulling people out of these groups. Now I think I understand why. Stop trolling your own faction and giving ball groups free CC immunity.

And the irony here is pretty funny. The other poster spent the entire thread talking about how dangerous it supposedly is to use Streak, yet you're casually using it against arguably one of the most dangerous things in Cyrodiil without any apparent concern for that "risk" or any actual danger.

Goregram1 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

streak is one of the few things u can use to drain a ball groups stam but the same people complaining about ball groups want to nerf the tools u can use to counter them

you're not draining ballgroup stam you're makin it harder for the bombers to bomb them by giving free cc immunity.

Unless its a really bad ball thats barely a ball

not when u are the bomb an or a 2nd follows up an ect cc immunity lasts a short time if it even register's on these sh!t severs. an enough ppl spam it the"ll run out ive seen it

Goregram1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

streak is one of the few things u can use to drain a ball groups stam but the same people complaining about ball groups want to nerf the tools u can use to counter them

Yeah, you're absolutely wrong on this. You're not going to drain a competent ball group's stamina by throwing random CC at them. All you're doing is giving them free CC immunity and making it harder to actually kill them.

The effective ways to break a ball group are bombing them or pulling people out of formation with things like Chains, Silver Leash, and Frozen Gate. Randomly CCing the group actively works against both strategies by giving them immunity.

I always wondered why I was having such a hard time pulling people out of these groups. Now I think I understand why. Stop trolling your own faction and giving ball groups free CC immunity.

And the irony here is pretty funny. The other poster spent the entire thread talking about how dangerous it supposedly is to use Streak, yet you're casually using it against arguably one of the most dangerous things in Cyrodiil without any apparent concern for that "risk" or any actual danger.

were did i say random?

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

I don't think making the CC blockable and giving it a short delay would "kill" it as a CC. It would just mean the CC actually has counterplay, which is the entire point of the discussion.

If the ability retains its massive AoE, range, damage, and mobility, it's still going to be an extremely strong CC. The difference is that the person being hit would actually have a defensive option instead of simply having to hope the Sorc misses.

Every other CC has counterplay. Why do you think it's justified that Streak doesn't have any?

Making Streak blockable kills the ability against blockers, who make up the majority of the top tier playerbase, and removes any meaningful counter towards permablockers or defensive blocking in Cyrodiil.

Sorry but no, Streak does not need to be blockable. At best, I can accept a short 0.3s delay at the target location (which is already a significant nerf against people building movement speed), but Streak NEEDS to remain unblockable. In fact, giving it a delay would absolutely kill it too since it's a skill shot, meaning any sort of delay without a snare would make the CC nearly impossible to connect.

You're not understanding the delay aspect. I'm not suggesting the Sorc applies a delayed stun that the target can simply walk away from. The idea would be that Streak applies a debuff to anyone hit by the initial effect, and that debuff stuns them shortly afterward unless they block. It would function more like the way Fossilize and Rune Cage give the target a window to respond rather than simply turning Streak into a slow-moving skill shot.

So the Sorc still gets the massive AoE and still has a very strong CC, but the person being hit finally has an actual defensive interaction. You're treating "delay" as though I'm proposing the stun itself has to physically travel to the target.

And Sorc already has Rune Cage if the concern is having an unblockable CC available. There's no reason Streak also needs to be an unblockable, undodgeable AoE CC with no target cap simply because Sorc needs a way to pressure blockers.

The whole point is to give Streak counterplay without gutting its identity as a mobility skill. A delayed stun that can be prevented by blocking does exactly that.

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

I don't think making the CC blockable and giving it a short delay would "kill" it as a CC. It would just mean the CC actually has counterplay, which is the entire point of the discussion.

If the ability retains its massive AoE, range, damage, and mobility, it's still going to be an extremely strong CC. The difference is that the person being hit would actually have a defensive option instead of simply having to hope the Sorc misses.

Every other CC has counterplay. Why do you think it's justified that Streak doesn't have any?

Making Streak blockable kills the ability against blockers, who make up the majority of the top tier playerbase, and removes any meaningful counter towards permablockers or defensive blocking in Cyrodiil.

Sorry but no, Streak does not need to be blockable. At best, I can accept a short 0.3s delay at the target location (which is already a significant nerf against people building movement speed), but Streak NEEDS to remain unblockable. In fact, giving it a delay would absolutely kill it too since it's a skill shot, meaning any sort of delay without a snare would make the CC nearly impossible to connect.

You're not understanding the delay aspect. I'm not suggesting the Sorc applies a delayed stun that the target can simply walk away from. The idea would be that Streak applies a debuff to anyone hit by the initial effect, and that debuff stuns them shortly afterward unless they block. It would function more like the way Fossilize and Rune Cage give the target a window to respond rather than simply turning Streak into a slow-moving skill shot.

So the Sorc still gets the massive AoE and still has a very strong CC, but the person being hit finally has an actual defensive interaction. You're treating "delay" as though I'm proposing the stun itself has to physically travel to the target.

And Sorc already has Rune Cage if the concern is having an unblockable CC available. There's no reason Streak also needs to be an unblockable, undodgeable AoE CC with no target cap simply because Sorc needs a way to pressure blockers.

The whole point is to give Streak counterplay without gutting its identity as a mobility skill. A delayed stun that can be prevented by blocking does exactly that.

Why do you think most CCs are unblockable? Making it blockable would literally render it completely useless against good players.

Since blocking is one of the easiest defensive maneuvers and only costs resources after an ability has been blocked, any good player would be tracking that "debuff" and holding down block before Streak can actually stun. It's literally the reason why Curse is so painfully bad after ZOS made it blockable.

Your suggestion does not work and will only make Streak completely worthless against good players, while doing nothing to help newbies.

Also, why are you bringing up Rune Cage? It's cleansable and incredibly telegraphed. Nobody good is getting stunned by it. Even if Streak got nerfed, nobody would use it either because it's that bad.

I'm starting to wonder what your actual agenda is here, because your suggestions are ridiculous from a balance perspective.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

If making the CC blockable would somehow "kill the skill as a CC," then why were you arguing that Fossilize is as strong as or even stronger than Streak because it has more effects attached to it?

Fossilize can be roll dodged. The important distinction is that it still has a defensive counterplay that Streak doesn't.

So if Fossilize is supposedly comparable to or stronger than Streak despite being roll-dodgeable, why would making Streak blockable or giving it a short delay suddenly "kill" it as a CC?

You're arguing that another CC can be just as strong despite having counterplay, while simultaneously arguing that giving Streak the same sort of counterplay would make it useless. Those positions don't really fit together.

hoangdz wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

If making the CC blockable would somehow "kill the skill as a CC," then why were you arguing that Fossilize is as strong as or even stronger than Streak because it has more effects attached to it?

Fossilize can be roll dodged. The important distinction is that it still has a defensive counterplay that Streak doesn't.

So if Fossilize is supposedly comparable to or stronger than Streak despite being roll-dodgeable, why would making Streak blockable or giving it a short delay suddenly "kill" it as a CC?

You're arguing that another CC can be just as strong despite having counterplay, while simultaneously arguing that giving Streak the same sort of counterplay would make it useless. Those positions don't really fit together.

There is a reason why good players use unblockable CCs on every build. If you fought me or anyone good without an unblockable CC, you are never landing a single combo. Making a stun blockable completely kills it against good players because they block. All. The. Time.

The thing is Fossilize locks the stun onto a target, while Streak requires aiming the stun. Giving it a delay would also kill its CC potential because you now have to aim at someone, then hope that he doesn't move away from the affected area or cleanse it off if it's a debuff.

These suggestions would not work in practice and would make people swap to BoL instead because it's a much better mobility tool. Streak would be left in storage and Sorc would never land a single combo vs good players. These suggestions are genuinely horrible lol.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

I don't think making the CC blockable and giving it a short delay would "kill" it as a CC. It would just mean the CC actually has counterplay, which is the entire point of the discussion.

If the ability retains its massive AoE, range, damage, and mobility, it's still going to be an extremely strong CC. The difference is that the person being hit would actually have a defensive option instead of simply having to hope the Sorc misses.

Every other CC has counterplay. Why do you think it's justified that Streak doesn't have any?

Making Streak blockable kills the ability against blockers, who make up the majority of the top tier playerbase, and removes any meaningful counter towards permablockers or defensive blocking in Cyrodiil.

Sorry but no, Streak does not need to be blockable. At best, I can accept a short 0.3s delay at the target location (which is already a significant nerf against people building movement speed), but Streak NEEDS to remain unblockable. In fact, giving it a delay would absolutely kill it too since it's a skill shot, meaning any sort of delay without a snare would make the CC nearly impossible to connect.

You're not understanding the delay aspect. I'm not suggesting the Sorc applies a delayed stun that the target can simply walk away from. The idea would be that Streak applies a debuff to anyone hit by the initial effect, and that debuff stuns them shortly afterward unless they block. It would function more like the way Fossilize and Rune Cage give the target a window to respond rather than simply turning Streak into a slow-moving skill shot.

So the Sorc still gets the massive AoE and still has a very strong CC, but the person being hit finally has an actual defensive interaction. You're treating "delay" as though I'm proposing the stun itself has to physically travel to the target.

And Sorc already has Rune Cage if the concern is having an unblockable CC available. There's no reason Streak also needs to be an unblockable, undodgeable AoE CC with no target cap simply because Sorc needs a way to pressure blockers.

The whole point is to give Streak counterplay without gutting its identity as a mobility skill. A delayed stun that can be prevented by blocking does exactly that.

Why do you think most CCs are unblockable? Making it blockable would literally render it completely useless against good players.

Since blocking is one of the easiest defensive maneuvers and only costs resources after an ability has been blocked, any good player would be tracking that "debuff" and holding down block before Streak can actually stun. It's literally the reason why Curse is so painfully bad after ZOS made it blockable.

Your suggestion does not work and will only make Streak completely worthless against good players, while doing nothing to help newbies.

Also, why are you bringing up Rune Cage? It's cleansable and incredibly telegraphed. Nobody good is getting stunned by it. Even if Streak got nerfed, nobody would use it either because it's that bad.

I'm starting to wonder what your actual agenda is here, because your suggestions are ridiculous from a balance perspective.

You can't even keep your arguments straight at this point. Fossilize has the same CC mechanics as Rune Cage.

Even @Alchimiste1 agrees that Rune Cage is a strong skill because you have to dodge it.

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

If making the CC blockable would somehow "kill the skill as a CC," then why were you arguing that Fossilize is as strong as or even stronger than Streak because it has more effects attached to it?

Fossilize can be roll dodged. The important distinction is that it still has a defensive counterplay that Streak doesn't.

So if Fossilize is supposedly comparable to or stronger than Streak despite being roll-dodgeable, why would making Streak blockable or giving it a short delay suddenly "kill" it as a CC?

You're arguing that another CC can be just as strong despite having counterplay, while simultaneously arguing that giving Streak the same sort of counterplay would make it useless. Those positions don't really fit together.

There is a reason why good players use unblockable CCs on every build. If you fought me or anyone good without an unblockable CC, you are never landing a single combo. Making a stun blockable completely kills it against good players because they block. All. The. Time.

The thing is Fossilize locks the stun onto a target, while Streak requires aiming the stun. Giving it a delay would also kill its CC potential because you now have to aim at someone, then hope that he doesn't move away from the affected area or cleanse it off if it's a debuff.

These suggestions would not work in practice and would make people swap to BoL instead because it's a much better mobility tool. Streak would be left in storage and Sorc would never land a single combo vs good players. These suggestions are genuinely horrible lol.

I already addressed this. The delayed-stun proposal was specifically not a "skill shot with a delayed explosion that you have to hope someone stays inside." You're arguing against a version of the idea that I didn't propose. I've already pointed this out.

The idea is that Streak hits the target and applies a debuff, with the stun triggering shortly afterward unless the target responds appropriately, similar to how other delayed CC mechanics give the defender a window to react. The Sorc still has to successfully land Streak in the first place; the delay simply creates counterplay after the hit.

So the "hope they don't move out of the area" argument doesn't apply to what I actually suggested. Please read the proposal before explaining why a different version of it wouldn't work.

Again, your suggestion is flawed. Streak already requires the caster to do 2 things:

1) Properly aim their crosshair at a target, which gets increasingly difficult against players with high movement speed
2) If the caster is a melee player, they need to position themselves correctly so as to not create too much distance between them and the target after Streaking. If the caster is a ranged player, they also need to position themselves correctly in order to create enough distance to avoid getting hit after using the ability.

That is already pretty damn hard for an average player. Most of them either mindlessly Streak through you and fail to connect the follow-up spammable because they allowed too much spacing, or did not create enough distance between them and a melee target and end up getting counter-bursted.

Imagine having to perform those 2 aforementioned mechanics, then also pray your target doesn't track the debuff or block between abilities. No good player would use Streak if it worked as suggested. The debuff can be cleansed off, and Streak being blockable would render it trash against good players who frequently block between abilities and track their debuffs.

hoangdz wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ah yes, nerf one of the most iconic, class-defining, and fun-to-use skills in the game because it has the potential to be used by ball groups to kill groups of pugs. What a great idea.

On a serious note, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No ball group is just going to streak into a randomly spread group of players before dumping their ultimates. The group will be too scattered for that to be effective. However, they might get pulled together by something like Rush of Agony or DC (which should never have been introduced into the game in the first place) and then stunned(ROA to be clear). At that point, it doesn't really matter whether the follow-up stun is Streak, Fear, Turn Evil, or the Warden charm.

Furthermore, the main issue with ball groups isn't really their kill potential. It's how incredibly tanky they are, with 45k+ health and who knows how many thousands worth of shields on top of that.

Personally, I'd address COE on Sorc long before I'd even consider touching Streak. Let Streak remain a strong and fun skill to use.

Lastly, I know a lot of Sorc haters don't want to hear this, but unironically, there is some skill involved in using Streak properly. A lot of Sorcs probably can't accurately judge the distance they need to travel to get the most out of it.

The framing around Streak only being a potential ball-group tool completely misses the point of the thread. At this point there have been about 15 posts explaining the same thing, so it's hard to imagine you missed the argument by accident.

Streak has an enormous range, no target cap, and the CC is unblockable and undodgeable. That's what makes it stand out. It's the most effective CC in the game and it's not even close. It essentially has no real counterplay, regardless of whether it's being used by a ball group, a solo player, or a small group.

And the ball-group example actually makes the problem even more obvious. A lot of these groups eventually end up fighting around keeps where players are naturally compressed together. They don't necessarily need Rush of Agony to create the perfect setup. Streak itself is extremely effective at locking down pugs in those situations. Rush of Agony has a 6-person target cap, delay, and can be blocked. Dark Convergence has a long cooldown. If they added the same limitations on Streak that exist on Rush then all my complaints would cease to exist. Streak doesn't have those limitations.

CoE is already being addressed, so bringing it up doesn't answer the Streak argument at all. Even if CoE disappeared tomorrow, Streak would still have the exact same CC mechanics we're discussing. You can't use a separate balance issue as a reason to ignore an overtuned CC.

And I'm genuinely curious what you mean by the last paragraph. Are you saying the difficulty with Streak is that Sorc players have trouble judging the distance they need to travel because they can't accurately tell where they are in relation to their target? If so, I'm not sure how that supports your argument. If you mean something else by "accurately judge the distance," please clarify, because as written it sounds like you're arguing that Streak has a skill ceiling because players sometimes struggle with basic distance perception.

I think you're the one framing it that way. I was simply addressing your point about Streak being especially problematic when used in ball groups. My argument was a counter to that by saying that streak isn't the issue and I stand by that.

Streak is undoubtedly one of the strongest skills in the game, but I don't think skills should be nerfed simply because its strong. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask: what specific problems is Streak actually creating for the game?

Things like CoE, Inhale, ROA, etc. are also very strong, but the reason I advocate for nerfs to those abilities is because they create specific, problematic interactions—things like effectively infinite sustain which leads to permablock+heal spam or CC-like interactions that don't properly respect immunity. What does Streak actually do that's problematic, aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away?

If the argument is that Sorcs shouldn't be able to Streak indefinitely, then I agree. But I think the better approach is to address what's enabling them to do that in the first place, which is CoE.

Streak is such a class-defining ability that I really don't want to see it nerfed simply because it's strong. Having one or two exceptionally powerful abilities is part of what makes individual classes unique and fun to play. I don't want to see the game become even more homogenized than it already is.

I think the stronger argument would be something along the lines of: "Using Streak in combination with X, Y, and Z creates a scenario with effectively zero counterplay while also dealing an unreasonable amount of damage." That's a legitimate argument for looking at the skill. But if the issue is simply Streak being used in combination with Curse, I don't really see that as particularly problematic.

I think there are a few major problems with that argument.

First, you're still framing Streak almost entirely around mobility, when that's not what I'm arguing needs to change. You ask what Streak does that's problematic "aside from allowing someone to annoy you by running away," but the issue being discussed is its CC, not its ability to escape.

The specific problematic interaction is pretty straightforward: Streak provides one of the strongest AoE CCs in the game, with no target cap, while being unblockable and undodgeable, and it does so as part of a mobility skill. I have no issue with this remaining a strong mobility skill, but it needs to be pointed out that those benefits are attached to the strongest mobility skill in the game. That creates effectively zero direct counterplay to the CC itself. You can't block it, dodge it, or prevent the Sorc from hitting multiple people with it. In large-scale PvP, that makes it incredibly effective at locking down groups.

That's why saying "strong skills shouldn't automatically be nerfed" misses the point. Nobody is asking for Streak to be nerfed merely because it's strong. We're identifying specific mechanics that make its CC disproportionately powerful: massive area, no target cap, no block/dodge counterplay, damage, and mobility.

I also don't buy the "class-defining" argument as a reason it can't be adjusted. You can keep Streak as the iconic Sorc mobility skill without preserving every single property of its CC. A 6-person target cap or making the stun blockable would leave the mobility—and the identity of the skill—completely intact while finally giving opponents some actual counterplay.

That's the bigger picture: the problem isn't that Streak is strong. The problem is that its CC has an unusually long list of advantages and virtually no direct defensive interaction for the people being hit by it.

So, to be clear would you be satisfied if the only nerf was to put a cap on the amount of people that can be stunned by it?
In my experience it wouldn't make a difference in 95%+ of the situations I've been in but perhaps it might for very large scale pvp.

A 6-person target cap would be a step in the right direction, but I don't think that alone would be enough. Realistically, if Streak is going to retain its massive area, the CC needs to have some actual counterplay.

One option would be giving the stun a short delay and making it blockable, similar to the Arcanist rune CC. That would preserve the mobility and large area while giving the people on the receiving end an actual defensive interaction.

I'm not asking for Streak to be gutted. It just needs some limitation or counterplay on the CC itself. One ability having that many advantages with essentially no way to defend against the stun doesn't make sense.

No offense but your double CC nerf suggestion would kill the skill as a CC lol.

If making the CC blockable would somehow "kill the skill as a CC," then why were you arguing that Fossilize is as strong as or even stronger than Streak because it has more effects attached to it?

Fossilize can be roll dodged. The important distinction is that it still has a defensive counterplay that Streak doesn't.

So if Fossilize is supposedly comparable to or stronger than Streak despite being roll-dodgeable, why would making Streak blockable or giving it a short delay suddenly "kill" it as a CC?

You're arguing that another CC can be just as strong despite having counterplay, while simultaneously arguing that giving Streak the same sort of counterplay would make it useless. Those positions don't really fit together.

There is a reason why good players use unblockable CCs on every build. If you fought me or anyone good without an unblockable CC, you are never landing a single combo. Making a stun blockable completely kills it against good players because they block. All. The. Time.

The thing is Fossilize locks the stun onto a target, while Streak requires aiming the stun. Giving it a delay would also kill its CC potential because you now have to aim at someone, then hope that he doesn't move away from the affected area or cleanse it off if it's a debuff.

These suggestions would not work in practice and would make people swap to BoL instead because it's a much better mobility tool. Streak would be left in storage and Sorc would never land a single combo vs good players. These suggestions are genuinely horrible lol.

I already addressed this. The delayed-stun proposal was specifically not a "skill shot with a delayed explosion that you have to hope someone stays inside." You're arguing against a version of the idea that I didn't propose. I've already pointed this out.

The idea is that Streak hits the target and applies a debuff, with the stun triggering shortly afterward unless the target responds appropriately, similar to how other delayed CC mechanics give the defender a window to react. The Sorc still has to successfully land Streak in the first place; the delay simply creates counterplay after the hit.

So the "hope they don't move out of the area" argument doesn't apply to what I actually suggested. Please read the proposal before explaining why a different version of it wouldn't work.

Again, your suggestion is flawed. Streak already requires the caster to do 2 things:

1) Properly aim their crosshair at a target, which gets increasingly difficult against players with high movement speed
2) If the caster is a melee player, they need to position themselves correctly so as to not create too much distance between them and the target after Streaking. If the caster is a ranged player, they also need to position themselves correctly in order to create enough distance to avoid getting hit after using the ability.

That is already pretty damn hard for an average player. Most of them either mindlessly Streak through you and fail to connect the follow-up spammable because they allowed too much spacing, or did not create enough distance between them and a melee target and end up getting counter-bursted.

Imagine having to perform those 2 aforementioned mechanics, then also pray your target doesn't track the debuff or block between abilities. No good player would use Streak if it worked as suggested. The debuff can be cleansed off, and Streak being blockable would render it trash against good players who frequently block between abilities and track their debuffs.

With all due respect, you just learned the difference today between block canceling and block casting. You swore up and down you block casted every single ability unless you were kiting, which was verifiably false when looking at your own videos that you linked. You have played the game for such a long time and you just learned today what the difference was, that's a little alarming. You bragged about having done over 15,000 duels but still lack that basic understanding, so when you keep going back to streak having to be aimed as if it's some skillshot or that people can just run out of streak as your main talking points, when you can't reactionarily run out of it, it lands on deaf ears. That as your rationale is so off-base and faulty it makes me want to side with someone on the opposite end of the argument just because you are so bad faith in your engagement with it.

Have a better response. If you legit don't have a better response to why streak shouldn't be nerfed other than "omg you have to aim it" or "go fast and streak will miss!!!" then you just don't have an actual good reason as to why it shouldn't be nerfed, because those reasons are not it. Stop saying you can play perfectly around streak, when as I said before, I have watched you die to sorcs solo, and watched you get stunned by the skill you say you can react to every time because you know when someone is going to streak. It is a silly talking point and does nothing but make your argument look shaky.

I will ask you again, and the fact that you gave me shattering rocks as an alternative is just a joke. But can you name a single CC that is analogous to streak in the way that it functions?

[snip]