Wuuffyy wrote: »

HalensShade wrote: »

Allow me to add to the tension.

Werewolves were not strong because of sorc class masteries. It just happened to be the strongest iteration of it. Werewolves were 100% carried by class masteries in general. Warden WW was even considered the best dueling spec in the game, for example. So it's not just sorc. It's all of them.

The stamina cost increase for werewolf was slightly excessive. They were comedically low to begin with, but that's beside the real issue. The real problem was the stamina return on the burst heal allowing for WWs to infinitely roll dodge and avoid all damage while remaining completely topped off on health. They should have just gutted that, removed class masteries while in WW form and called it a day.

The reverb mastery was a good change. An ability that pushed out THAT much pressure on EVERY ability was just uncalled for. Class skill interaction with something as strong as that is the way to go. Kudos, zos.

Hurry [snip] up with Warden.

You act like them taking away our version of a 'dark deal' would have solved anything. It seems like you've entered once-again to propose another way to 'nerf werewolf' while pretending you know what's best for it.

I'm the one who picked up the pieces for all these years despite being powercrept to he-- and back. I'll be the first to tell you, us restoring resources on our howl (resources that were already able to be restored during any lulls before pre-work) is NOT the reason we are 'OP' on live (and you'll pretty clearly see how abysmal werewolf is once next patch drops to confirm this)

You say 'comically low' but don't realize my stam pool is also 'comically low' when building any appropriate amount of health for health-based healing in PvP. You don't realize that I had a 30% modifier on my entire stam pool prior the the rework WITHOUT ISSUE, a stam pool I no longer have. And you also don't understand @RedMamba that my health-based healing before the rework was up to 43% higher on my only on-demand burst heal and yet it wasn't sufficient enough to carry wolf to do anything meaningful.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Werewolf is unplayable on anything but a Sorcerer next patch… made the mistake of switching out a skill line by accident and losing that Class Mastery even now feels horrible.

I can’t imagine anyone finding fun with it after all of those sustain nerfs.

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Werewolf is unplayable on anything but a Sorcerer next patch… made the mistake of switching out a skill line by accident and losing that Class Mastery even now feels horrible.

I can’t imagine anyone finding fun with it after all of those sustain nerfs.

Werewolf won't be viable on sorc next patch.

Sure, they only nerfed by CoE 25% (still the equivalent of 1,600 mag recov at 50,000 mag) but unlike sorc, static reverb no longer works with werewolf. If you picked this full class for sustain, your damage would plummet.

It's 100% still viable it's just not broken and op anymore.

HalensShade wrote: »

@Wuuffyy

And here you'll see where I agreed that the cost increase was too much.

HalensShade wrote: »

The stamina cost increase for werewolf was slightly excessive. They were comedically low to begin with, but that's beside the real issue. The real problem was the stamina return on the burst heal allowing for WWs to infinitely roll dodge and avoid all damage while remaining completely topped off on health. They should have just gutted that, removed class masteries while in WW form and called it a day.

Despite who you believe yourself to be and how that would affect my opinion of you, the resource return on the burst heal is an issue. Denying that nullifies any credibility you think you deserve.

Look, mom! I just got 1v1 me bro'd by the.. wait.. who are you again?

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HalensShade wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP

Wuuffyy wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Leivendil wrote: »

Sorc needs more nerfs. Ww needs to be viable on other classes. Other than that, good changes

Sorc caught strays for unrelated things with this change and as of now WW isn't viable on any class anymore

It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try

No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):



I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.

See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.

This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HalensShade wrote: »

That's a lot of words to not refute what I said. Who are you trying to impress right now?

Oh, I refuted it. Just because you ignored it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've noticed this type of debate engagement a lot around 'your camp'.

W/e, feel free to actually read that whenever! Thank you!!

Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP

Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-

Wuuffyy wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Leivendil wrote: »

Sorc needs more nerfs. Ww needs to be viable on other classes. Other than that, good changes

Sorc caught strays for unrelated things with this change and as of now WW isn't viable on any class anymore

It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try

No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):



I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.

See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.

This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.

Let me know if you need gear help also since you can't adapt to changes like most good players. I'm still beating most DK's and Sorcs on PTS with simple changes to my WW build.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Werewolf is unplayable on anything but a Sorcerer next patch… made the mistake of switching out a skill line by accident and losing that Class Mastery even now feels horrible.

I can’t imagine anyone finding fun with it after all of those sustain nerfs.

Werewolf won't be viable on sorc next patch.

Sure, they only nerfed CoE resource sustain by 25% (still the equivalent of 1,600 mag recov at 50,000 mag) and subsequent 'Blood Magic' healing by 40% but unlike sorc, static reverb no longer works with werewolf. If you pick this full class for sustain next patch, your damage will plummet for werewolf.

'Calculated Defense' (shield on heavy and Roar until completed/interrupted) would be the only mastery that can function for werewolf next patch with CoE on sorc... 6% wep/spell damage... yeah:

HunterDawn wrote: »

Dark Magic nerf cuts total healing by 20 %, which cannot be offset by health stacking due to resource limits. Class Mastery resource regen is down 25 %; you need 25 000 Stamina just to keep current recovery. Resonance being disabled reduces total damage by ~6 %. The Sorcerer‑Werewolf Berserker build has no advantages now, forcing us onto Pack Leader for another ~10 % damage loss. Tripled ability costs require Shapeshifter Amulet, dropping damage another ~7 %. Overall, U51 Sorcerer‑Werewolf takes ~25 % total‑damage and 20 % total‑healing nerfs plus tripled ability costs. See the screenshot below for the damage gap。😅

HalensShade wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HalensShade wrote: »

Allow me to add to the tension.

Werewolves were not strong because of sorc class masteries. It just happened to be the strongest iteration of it. Werewolves were 100% carried by class masteries in general. Warden WW was even considered the best dueling spec in the game, for example. So it's not just sorc. It's all of them.

The stamina cost increase for werewolf was slightly excessive. They were comedically low to begin with, but that's beside the real issue. The real problem was the stamina return on the burst heal allowing for WWs to infinitely roll dodge and avoid all damage while remaining completely topped off on health. They should have just gutted that, removed class masteries while in WW form and called it a day.

The reverb mastery was a good change. An ability that pushed out THAT much pressure on EVERY ability was just uncalled for. Class skill interaction with something as strong as that is the way to go. Kudos, zos.

Hurry [snip] up with Warden.

You act like them taking away our version of a 'dark deal' would have solved anything. It seems like you've entered once-again to propose another way to 'nerf werewolf' while pretending you know what's best for it.

I'm the one who picked up the pieces for all these years despite being powercrept to he-- and back. I'll be the first to tell you, us restoring resources on our howl (resources that were already able to be restored during any lulls before pre-work) is NOT the reason we are 'OP' on live (and you'll pretty clearly see how abysmal werewolf is once next patch drops to confirm this)

You say 'comically low' but don't realize my stam pool is also 'comically low' when building any appropriate amount of health for health-based healing in PvP. You don't realize that I had a 30% modifier on my entire stam pool prior the the rework WITHOUT ISSUE, a stam pool I no longer have. And you also don't understand @RedMamba that my health-based healing before the rework was up to 43% higher on my only on-demand burst heal and yet it wasn't sufficient enough to carry wolf to do anything meaningful.

I'm going to be vehemently honest with you brother. If you're having issues playing a sorc WW, it's probably a you issue.

Saying I don't understand any of it is just a dog barking at nothing. (No pun intended, but maybe?) I've played it. It is ENTIRELY the reason for it.

The costs were comedically low, yes. Why should an ultimate be able to fully kit itself out with damage and not have to worry about sacrificing anything for sustain? It shouldn't. This live patch is what you get when you allow that. This abysmal state of pvp that you're currently advocating for.

Disgusting.
[edited to remove quote]