React wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Wow, a hyper-optimized group who specifically grinded and learned this trial just to do it as a score push? Must be a common occurrence aye.

Well, what you said when you called the other poster disingenuous was;

Faltasë wrote: »

Also if we are being honest no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous.

Anyways, to adress your point - to say there is nothing that can be done about power creep is very silly. There is PLENTY that can be done, and SHOULD be done for the health and integrity of endgame in ESO. This is an MMO, these things are important. It would be silly to let things continue to go unchecked until we're all a level 500 dragonborn playing on novice difficulty.

Firstmep wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

PvE players begging devs that dont play the game to not reduce power while vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute from extreme power creep. Quality experiences in ESO

This argument holds no water when the majority of PvEers don't do Vet Trials. You're trying to say that just because the top players in PvE who dummy hump for weeks and min-max their builds with an iron grip to squeeze out every drop of DPS/tanking/healing humanly possible can breeze through ESO's harder(est) content means absolutely no one who PvEs has any right to be upset over nerfs.

Nerfs don't impact those top players, they only impact everyone elso who won't be able to theorycraft on the level of Einstein and clear any content to get the Gear needed without breaking a sweat. If we want to address power creep, maybe instead of nerfing things, a soft damage cap of some kind should be introduced. Diminishing returns after you hit 100k or something.

That and NOT balancing new content around those top players would go a long way to dealing with power creep. But nerfing things will NEVER fix that problem.

We have been through these motions in endgame pve before and handing out free power isn't really the best way to handle it.
Longer buff/debuff/dot durations for example are an easy way to help ppl who's rotation aren't super tight. We even have a mythic for people who don't want to/can't weave.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

React wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Also if we are being honest no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous.

https://youtu.be/WcFeY-O1-jk?is=W65slz5pCKQeWBXM

Wow, a hyper-optimized group who specifically grinded and learned this trial just to do it as a score push? Must be a common occurrence aye.

Fengrush's comment - "vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute"

Your response - "no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous"

React - posts a video of a sub minute non-crag trial

You - shift goalpost to say wow this must be a common occurrence.

The initial claim was only that trials can be cleared in under a minute, which was substantiated. Don't goal post shift when you are wrong. PvE does not need some hyper balance, all damage can be nerfed by literally 50% and every trial can still be cleared without any issue.

Arunei wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

PvE players begging devs that dont play the game to not reduce power while vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute from extreme power creep. Quality experiences in ESO

This argument holds no water when the majority of PvEers don't do Vet Trials. You're trying to say that just because the top players in PvE who dummy hump for weeks and min-max their builds with an iron grip to squeeze out every drop of DPS/tanking/healing humanly possible can breeze through ESO's harder(est) content means absolutely no one who PvEs has any right to be upset over nerfs.

Nerfs don't impact those top players, they only impact everyone elso who won't be able to theorycraft on the level of Einstein and clear any content to get the Gear needed without breaking a sweat. If we want to address power creep, maybe instead of nerfing things, a soft damage cap of some kind should be introduced. Diminishing returns after you hit 100k or something.

That and NOT balancing new content around those top players would go a long way to dealing with power creep. But nerfing things will NEVER fix that problem.

We have been through these motions in endgame pve before and handing out free power isn't really the best way to handle it.
Longer buff/debuff/dot durations for example are an easy way to help ppl who's rotation aren't super tight. We even have a mythic for people who don't want to/can't weave.

I'm confused, what do you mean handing out free power? Putting a soft cap on damage doesn't give free anything, it's diminishing returns so that stuff isn't solely based on DPS any more. It would go a long way to addressing power creep. Instead of new OP Sets or Mythics pushing the ceiling ever higher, they'd just give different ways towards the same goal.

People who aren't good at rotations for whatever reason, who can't theorycraft or don't care to, who can't LA Weave or Bash Weave, they wouldn't be hitting super high numbers with a damage cap. Nothing would change that would make it easier for them to get higher DPS. Your average person would probably still be below 20 or 30k. But people who want to build into power still could and they'd probably still manage to push decently high DPS if they really wanted to.

But the ability to would be harder and harder the higher DPS you get. It would mean that new content doesn't need to be based around 80k, 90k, 110k, 150k, etc etc etc. Mind you these are just example numbers of how power creep drives up what content is based around. And honestly, a soft damage cap would encourage more build diversity since there wouldn't only be a handful of Sets considered BiS.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

React wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Also if we are being honest no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous.

https://youtu.be/WcFeY-O1-jk?is=W65slz5pCKQeWBXM

Wow, a hyper-optimized group who specifically grinded and learned this trial just to do it as a score push? Must be a common occurrence aye.

Fengrush's comment - "vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute"

Your response - "no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous"

React - posts a video of a sub minute non-crag trial

You - shift goalpost to say wow this must be a common occurrence.

The initial claim was only that trials can be cleared in under a minute, which was substantiated. Don't goal post shift when you are wrong. PvE does not need some hyper balance, all damage can be nerfed by literally 50% and every trial can still be cleared without any issue.

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

shadoza wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

This comment is really disqualifying your own stance. This whole "balancing for the 1 %" perspective isn't grounded on any tangible evidence. Independent of actual content preferences, players will perform anywhere from 0 to a 100 % of a classes potential. Any balancing measure that will impact the top 1 % performance by, e.g., 10 %, will have a highly comparable impact on other players. The impact will be felt much less by a lower performing player. Unless a change strictly removes a resource or mechanic, the impact is always diminished by the same factors that dictate a players performance in respect to the potential (APM, weave average, stat scaling etc.). Not to mention, that there is no real data for the distribution of player performance across the spectrum. For all we know the average could be in the above 80 % range when looking at comparable setups.

You basically imply that there is a subset of players, who are so bad the game, that the available player power needs to overcompensate for their shortcomings, no matter how severe the detriment is to the actual challenge of encounters or balancing between classes. Whether this is due to mechanical inability, lack of player effort, etc. - it is never worth sacrificing the quality of the product for non-qualifiable, non-quantifiable, and non-communicatable issues. The game should always be balanced around player potential. If there are certain problems, like mechanical inabilities, those can be ameliorated through targeted solutions, like ZOS is offering with one-bar, HA, and channel-based play styles. That these play styles must have tradeoffs is clear, but these are detail questions.

It makes no sense to let the games balancing fall apart, just because some people enjoy performing above their pay grade.

APM == button mashing ==> I never saw that as performing above any 'pay grade.' That is more what people do when in a panic because they are not good at understanding the concept of the game/boss fight system.
Weave == button mashing in a pattern ==> A part of me thinks that those that like to weave skills are Mortal Kombat fans that never left the field. If you are weaving skills, you are not choosing the best skill for the moment, you are relying on DPS to power through it.
Stat scaling == Dark Soul II term for "Dying isn't fun." What more is there to say, players that rely on stat scaling will likely die in the fight without it.

You seem to be implying that players that do math problems before playing, (or take other peoples work,) are better players. It is my opinion that those that use the 'number game' to play are the first and loudest in the complaint queue when something gets changed because their success is determined not by skill, performance, or experience, but rather determined by the resolution of a math problem. [change a number in a math problem the results will be different]
The the fear of playing wrong leads many players into the shadows of following a streamer or bloggers lead (yes, they are taking entertainment advice from a stranger.) I think they never learn to play the game without Max/Min actions; therefore, they never learn to enjoy the game play. If all the min-max math is removed, they would not do well. (Maybe this is why some players do not like Vengeance mode in PvP.

Real performance of skills will be in those players that keep fighting on when something is changed. They players that can adjust their response in a moment rather than after a quick math lesson. Those would be the very players you are suggesting are 'lower performing.'

Note: The Max/Min number game is actually falling out of favor (evidence on the internet) because those that used it intensely are coming to realize it not only ruins a game, it ruins their enjoyment of the game. Something to think about.

shadoza wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

This comment is really disqualifying your own stance. This whole "balancing for the 1 %" perspective isn't grounded on any tangible evidence. Independent of actual content preferences, players will perform anywhere from 0 to a 100 % of a classes potential. Any balancing measure that will impact the top 1 % performance by, e.g., 10 %, will have a highly comparable impact on other players. The impact will be felt much less by a lower performing player. Unless a change strictly removes a resource or mechanic, the impact is always diminished by the same factors that dictate a players performance in respect to the potential (APM, weave average, stat scaling etc.). Not to mention, that there is no real data for the distribution of player performance across the spectrum. For all we know the average could be in the above 80 % range when looking at comparable setups.

You basically imply that there is a subset of players, who are so bad the game, that the available player power needs to overcompensate for their shortcomings, no matter how severe the detriment is to the actual challenge of encounters or balancing between classes. Whether this is due to mechanical inability, lack of player effort, etc. - it is never worth sacrificing the quality of the product for non-qualifiable, non-quantifiable, and non-communicatable issues. The game should always be balanced around player potential. If there are certain problems, like mechanical inabilities, those can be ameliorated through targeted solutions, like ZOS is offering with one-bar, HA, and channel-based play styles. That these play styles must have tradeoffs is clear, but these are detail questions.

It makes no sense to let the games balancing fall apart, just because some people enjoy performing above their pay grade.

APM == button mashing ==> I never saw that as performing above any 'pay grade.' That is more what people do when in a panic because they are not good at understanding the concept of the game/boss fight system.
Weave == button mashing in a pattern ==> A part of me thinks that those that like to weave skills are Mortal Kombat fans that never left the field. If you are weaving skills, you are not choosing the best skill for the moment, you are relying on DPS to power through it.
Stat scaling == Dark Soul II term for "Dying isn't fun." What more is there to say, players that rely on stat scaling will likely die in the fight without it.

You seem to be implying that players that do math problems before playing, (or take other peoples work,) are better players. It is my opinion that those that use the 'number game' to play are the first and loudest in the complaint queue when something gets changed because their success is determined not by skill, performance, or experience, but rather determined by the resolution of a math problem. [change a number in a math problem the results will be different]
The the fear of playing wrong leads many players into the shadows of following a streamer or bloggers lead (yes, they are taking entertainment advice from a stranger.) I think they never learn to play the game without Max/Min actions; therefore, they never learn to enjoy the game play. If all the min-max math is removed, they would not do well. (Maybe this is why some players do not like Vengeance mode in PvP.

Real performance of skills will be in those players that keep fighting on when something is changed. They players that can adjust their response in a moment rather than after a quick math lesson. Those would be the very players you are suggesting are 'lower performing.'

Note: The Max/Min number game is actually falling out of favor (evidence on the internet) because those that used it intensely are coming to realize it not only ruins a game, it ruins their enjoyment of the game. Something to think about.

Vaqual wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

This comment is really disqualifying your own stance. This whole "balancing for the 1 %" perspective isn't grounded on any tangible evidence. Independent of actual content preferences, players will perform anywhere from 0 to a 100 % of a classes potential. Any balancing measure that will impact the top 1 % performance by, e.g., 10 %, will have a highly comparable impact on other players. The impact will be felt much less by a lower performing player. Unless a change strictly removes a resource or mechanic, the impact is always diminished by the same factors that dictate a players performance in respect to the potential (APM, weave average, stat scaling etc.). Not to mention, that there is no real data for the distribution of player performance across the spectrum. For all we know the average could be in the above 80 % range when looking at comparable setups.

You basically imply that there is a subset of players, who are so bad the game, that the available player power needs to overcompensate for their shortcomings, no matter how severe the detriment is to the actual challenge of encounters or balancing between classes. Whether this is due to mechanical inability, lack of player effort, etc. - it is never worth sacrificing the quality of the product for non-qualifiable, non-quantifiable, and non-communicatable issues. The game should always be balanced around player potential. If there are certain problems, like mechanical inabilities, those can be ameliorated through targeted solutions, like ZOS is offering with one-bar, HA, and channel-based play styles. That these play styles must have tradeoffs is clear, but these are detail questions.

It makes no sense to let the games balancing fall apart, just because some people enjoy performing above their pay grade.

APM == button mashing ==> I never saw that as performing above any 'pay grade.' That is more what people do when in a panic because they are not good at understanding the concept of the game/boss fight system.
Weave == button mashing in a pattern ==> A part of me thinks that those that like to weave skills are Mortal Kombat fans that never left the field. If you are weaving skills, you are not choosing the best skill for the moment, you are relying on DPS to power through it.
Stat scaling == Dark Soul II term for "Dying isn't fun." What more is there to say, players that rely on stat scaling will likely die in the fight without it.

You seem to be implying that players that do math problems before playing, (or take other peoples work,) are better players. It is my opinion that those that use the 'number game' to play are the first and loudest in the complaint queue when something gets changed because their success is determined not by skill, performance, or experience, but rather determined by the resolution of a math problem. [change a number in a math problem the results will be different]
The the fear of playing wrong leads many players into the shadows of following a streamer or bloggers lead (yes, they are taking entertainment advice from a stranger.) I think they never learn to play the game without Max/Min actions; therefore, they never learn to enjoy the game play. If all the min-max math is removed, they would not do well. (Maybe this is why some players do not like Vengeance mode in PvP.

Real performance of skills will be in those players that keep fighting on when something is changed. They players that can adjust their response in a moment rather than after a quick math lesson. Those would be the very players you are suggesting are 'lower performing.'

Note: The Max/Min number game is actually falling out of favor (evidence on the internet) because those that used it intensely are coming to realize it not only ruins a game, it ruins their enjoyment of the game. Something to think about.

Ah wait, I remember you. You are the person who didn't believe world bosses can be soloed without gear, called me out for alleged misinformation and insuated that I have base motives for claiming that. I do honestly question your objectivity.

Arunei wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

PvE players begging devs that dont play the game to not reduce power while vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute from extreme power creep. Quality experiences in ESO

This argument holds no water when the majority of PvEers don't do Vet Trials. You're trying to say that just because the top players in PvE who dummy hump for weeks and min-max their builds with an iron grip to squeeze out every drop of DPS/tanking/healing humanly possible can breeze through ESO's harder(est) content means absolutely no one who PvEs has any right to be upset over nerfs.

Nerfs don't impact those top players, they only impact everyone elso who won't be able to theorycraft on the level of Einstein and clear any content to get the Gear needed without breaking a sweat. If we want to address power creep, maybe instead of nerfing things, a soft damage cap of some kind should be introduced. Diminishing returns after you hit 100k or something.

That and NOT balancing new content around those top players would go a long way to dealing with power creep. But nerfing things will NEVER fix that problem.

We have been through these motions in endgame pve before and handing out free power isn't really the best way to handle it.
Longer buff/debuff/dot durations for example are an easy way to help ppl who's rotation aren't super tight. We even have a mythic for people who don't want to/can't weave.

I'm confused, what do you mean handing out free power? Putting a soft cap on damage doesn't give free anything, it's diminishing returns so that stuff isn't solely based on DPS any more. It would go a long way to addressing power creep. Instead of new OP Sets or Mythics pushing the ceiling ever higher, they'd just give different ways towards the same goal.

People who aren't good at rotations for whatever reason, who can't theorycraft or don't care to, who can't LA Weave or Bash Weave, they wouldn't be hitting super high numbers with a damage cap. Nothing would change that would make it easier for them to get higher DPS. Your average person would probably still be below 20 or 30k. But people who want to build into power still could and they'd probably still manage to push decently high DPS if they really wanted to.

But the ability to would be harder and harder the higher DPS you get. It would mean that new content doesn't need to be based around 80k, 90k, 110k, 150k, etc etc etc. Mind you these are just example numbers of how power creep drives up what content is based around. And honestly, a soft damage cap would encourage more build diversity since there wouldn't only be a handful of Sets considered BiS.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

React wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Also if we are being honest no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous.

https://youtu.be/WcFeY-O1-jk?is=W65slz5pCKQeWBXM

Wow, a hyper-optimized group who specifically grinded and learned this trial just to do it as a score push? Must be a common occurrence aye.

Fengrush's comment - "vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute"

Your response - "no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous"

React - posts a video of a sub minute non-crag trial

You - shift goalpost to say wow this must be a common occurrence.

The initial claim was only that trials can be cleared in under a minute, which was substantiated. Don't goal post shift when you are wrong. PvE does not need some hyper balance, all damage can be nerfed by literally 50% and every trial can still be cleared without any issue.

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

Completely wrong. Nothing from the first sentence he wrote was disingenuous. His entire point was that power creep is now so strong that there are certain people who can clear vet trials in under one minute. There is nothing else to read into. These world records have constantly progressed. He is saying, complaining about devs reducing power in PvE is silly when power has crept so hard trials are cleared 5x faster. And he is right. If you are complaining about losing 2k DPS when it has ballooned so hard, you need to prioritize better.

What SOME people can do is not indicative of what EVERYONE can do. Point blank. It does not matter AT ALL what a fraction of the PvE playerbase can do, and just because those top players can set those records does NOT mean PvEers in general don't have a right to voice complaints when THEY are the ones getting hit by the nerfs because of power creep.

Those people setting those records? Nerfs will never touch them. They will ALWAYS, as they have for YEARS (evident by power creep itself) easily get any DPS, healing, or tanking ability they lost back. Everyone else? THEY are the ones that get hit hardest by nerfs because of power creep. Because of a standard they won't ever reach to begin with.

So again, yes, it is disingenuous to claim that PvEers in general (note he never said top players or high-skill endgame players but just 'PvEer's') somehow don't have a right to get upset just because a smaller portion of the community can do X or Y. If he had said "endgame PvEers" or whatever, then yeah, you'd be right. But the implication in saying only 'PvEers' not asking for nerfs because VET TRIALS are being cleared at record speeds is there. It can be read into.

And let's not try to trivialize things by claiming the nerfs are only like a 2k net loss or something. We already had an exodus because of U35 making people lose considerable amounts of DPS while the ceiling players were barely affected. Constant nerfing will not ever fix power creep. This has been shown so many times over the years. The people causing power creep are the top players who can theorycraft 200k out of a wet napkin and a paper clip. And that's not to say it's a bad thing, I wish I had the ability to understand Skill and Set interactions to that degree.

But when every new update brings new Sets and Mythics that are stronger than the last's, those people are the ones pushing the power creep by finding the new meta, finding out how much higher they can push numbers. So again, if we want to deal with power creep, the best and easiest answer is going to be soft damage caps. Or another alternative is to not make Sets that can pump out considerably more damage than the ones that currently exist. Keep them at roughly the same power. That too would help cut down on power creep by a decent amount.

Arunei wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

PvE players begging devs that dont play the game to not reduce power while vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute from extreme power creep. Quality experiences in ESO

This argument holds no water when the majority of PvEers don't do Vet Trials. You're trying to say that just because the top players in PvE who dummy hump for weeks and min-max their builds with an iron grip to squeeze out every drop of DPS/tanking/healing humanly possible can breeze through ESO's harder(est) content means absolutely no one who PvEs has any right to be upset over nerfs.

Nerfs don't impact those top players, they only impact everyone elso who won't be able to theorycraft on the level of Einstein and clear any content to get the Gear needed without breaking a sweat. If we want to address power creep, maybe instead of nerfing things, a soft damage cap of some kind should be introduced. Diminishing returns after you hit 100k or something.

That and NOT balancing new content around those top players would go a long way to dealing with power creep. But nerfing things will NEVER fix that problem.

We have been through these motions in endgame pve before and handing out free power isn't really the best way to handle it.
Longer buff/debuff/dot durations for example are an easy way to help ppl who's rotation aren't super tight. We even have a mythic for people who don't want to/can't weave.

I'm confused, what do you mean handing out free power? Putting a soft cap on damage doesn't give free anything, it's diminishing returns so that stuff isn't solely based on DPS any more. It would go a long way to addressing power creep. Instead of new OP Sets or Mythics pushing the ceiling ever higher, they'd just give different ways towards the same goal.

People who aren't good at rotations for whatever reason, who can't theorycraft or don't care to, who can't LA Weave or Bash Weave, they wouldn't be hitting super high numbers with a damage cap. Nothing would change that would make it easier for them to get higher DPS. Your average person would probably still be below 20 or 30k. But people who want to build into power still could and they'd probably still manage to push decently high DPS if they really wanted to.

But the ability to would be harder and harder the higher DPS you get. It would mean that new content doesn't need to be based around 80k, 90k, 110k, 150k, etc etc etc. Mind you these are just example numbers of how power creep drives up what content is based around. And honestly, a soft damage cap would encourage more build diversity since there wouldn't only be a handful of Sets considered BiS.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

React wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Also if we are being honest no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous.

https://youtu.be/WcFeY-O1-jk?is=W65slz5pCKQeWBXM

Wow, a hyper-optimized group who specifically grinded and learned this trial just to do it as a score push? Must be a common occurrence aye.

Fengrush's comment - "vet trials are being cleared in under 1 minute"

Your response - "no one is going around clearing post-craglorn vet trials in under a minute. Don't be disingenuous"

React - posts a video of a sub minute non-crag trial

You - shift goalpost to say wow this must be a common occurrence.

The initial claim was only that trials can be cleared in under a minute, which was substantiated. Don't goal post shift when you are wrong. PvE does not need some hyper balance, all damage can be nerfed by literally 50% and every trial can still be cleared without any issue.

The claim was still disingenuous because he essentially said that because there are a top 1% of players able to do this, it implies that anyone who PvEs shouldn't complain about nerfs. Many PvEers aren't doing Trials to begin with, let alone Vet ones. The fact that a small minority of PvEers can do it is irrelevant when it comes to average PvEers and even the above-average that aren't in the top percent.

Also a single video of a group doing a world record isn't the same as trying to imply it's a regular thing the top players are all doing.

Completely wrong. Nothing from the first sentence he wrote was disingenuous. His entire point was that power creep is now so strong that there are certain people who can clear vet trials in under one minute. There is nothing else to read into. These world records have constantly progressed. He is saying, complaining about devs reducing power in PvE is silly when power has crept so hard trials are cleared 5x faster. And he is right. If you are complaining about losing 2k DPS when it has ballooned so hard, you need to prioritize better.

What SOME people can do is not indicative of what EVERYONE can do. Point blank. It does not matter AT ALL what a fraction of the PvE playerbase can do, and just because those top players can set those records does NOT mean PvEers in general don't have a right to voice complaints when THEY are the ones getting hit by the nerfs because of power creep.

Those people setting those records? Nerfs will never touch them. They will ALWAYS, as they have for YEARS (evident by power creep itself) easily get any DPS, healing, or tanking ability they lost back. Everyone else? THEY are the ones that get hit hardest by nerfs because of power creep. Because of a standard they won't ever reach to begin with.

So again, yes, it is disingenuous to claim that PvEers in general (note he never said top players or high-skill endgame players but just 'PvEer's') somehow don't have a right to get upset just because a smaller portion of the community can do X or Y. If he had said "endgame PvEers" or whatever, then yeah, you'd be right. But the implication in saying only 'PvEers' not asking for nerfs because VET TRIALS are being cleared at record speeds is there. It can be read into.

And let's not try to trivialize things by claiming the nerfs are only like a 2k net loss or something. We already had an exodus because of U35 making people lose considerable amounts of DPS while the ceiling players were barely affected. Constant nerfing will not ever fix power creep. This has been shown so many times over the years. The people causing power creep are the top players who can theorycraft 200k out of a wet napkin and a paper clip. And that's not to say it's a bad thing, I wish I had the ability to understand Skill and Set interactions to that degree.

But when every new update brings new Sets and Mythics that are stronger than the last's, those people are the ones pushing the power creep by finding the new meta, finding out how much higher they can push numbers. So again, if we want to deal with power creep, the best and easiest answer is going to be soft damage caps. Or another alternative is to not make Sets that can pump out considerably more damage than the ones that currently exist. Keep them at roughly the same power. That too would help cut down on power creep by a decent amount.

Yeah, but nobody said everyone can do it. Literally nobody. Re-read what I wrote. Talking to some people on the forums is such a chore, they write some giant thing even though they lose the plot one sentence in.

That's what implication means. When something is said without saying it. The implication is that PvEers in general shouldn't bring up concerns about nerfs just because top-end players can do something. It's not the people setting these records that are getting upset by constant nerfs after all. Literally it was said "PvEers" begging not to get nerfs. Because SOME players are setting records in content that the people who are bothered by the nerfs will never set foot in. It would be different if what was said was something like "endgame PvEers who are setting records begging not to get nerfed" but that isn't what was said at all. It's just implied that no PvEer has the right to be upset over nerfs because they're justified over what a fraction of the PvE playerbase can do.

But I'll agree. It can be a chore talking to some people on the forum when they bury the plot and ignore it.