Sure if you have already reached ar 50.
Our guild even has ap farm nights to help level up those that haven't.
Don't try to speak for everyone just because you have no use for ap anymore.

I couldn't use the term I wanted to use.
And like I said others do care.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I couldn't use the term I wanted to use.
And like I said others do care.

Nope, literally not what you said. You said, "But it is always about the ap if you will be honest." You made an absolute claim, then two people disagreed, then you said they were gaslighting. You don't even remember what you said and you are trying to claim people are gaslighting for giving their opinion for not caring about AP.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Sure if you have already reached ar 50.
Our guild even has ap farm nights to help level up those that haven't.
Don't try to speak for everyone just because you have no use for ap anymore.
So much gaslighting.

I think you need to learn the definition of gaslighting, you aren't applying it within the right context. I don't have a single character that is rank 50. I still do not care at all about AP.

Same, been playing since beta and not a single toon is 50.

I have one that is.. 46 and that is the highest. When it happens it happens.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Sure if you have already reached ar 50.
Our guild even has ap farm nights to help level up those that haven't.
Don't try to speak for everyone just because you have no use for ap anymore.

Is AP actually valuable after AR50 though? If you're not chasing titles, it seems like one of those currencies that has pretty poor value when converted into gold. Farming AP for the sake of having AP doesn't seem particularly meaningful.

And honestly, the titles themselves don't mean much either. They're more a measure of time played than skill at this point. There are plenty of bad players running around with Grand Overlord titles. I'd rather just focus on actual gold farming — doing writs or farming Tel Var, for example. Seems way more useful than farming AP.

Most ball group members have min tens of millions of AP.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I couldn't use the term I wanted to use.
And like I said others do care.

if i agree with novelli you're probably wrong. Farming pugs isnt even a good source of ap, there's diminishing returns

Its literally the love of the game.

Can't even really discuss the ballgroup balance because of talk of intent, its really besides the point why they do what they do or anyone else.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So where are good, organized groups supposed to play?
And no most of us don't run around the top of keeps killing people, unless you are not in our alliance.
What, we shouldn't kill enemies in our keep?

I've played ESO for a great many years now and in the last year have moved to PvE almost exclusively, barring few times I might play on Vengeance or GH. That is the exception now. Why is that. Is it because I'm a bad player/PvPer? Nope. And playing on Vengeance doesn't make a you a bad either. But there are reasons. Let's briefly cross examine those vs what you just had said.

"And no most of us don't run around the top of keeps killing people"

- Actually, I can say with absolutely certainty this statement is not accurate. I'm not saying anyone is being 'untruthful'. I am saying this is totally wrong. Most of the time ball groups ride around the keep, or a group of factions who have collected in one area, or they ride around the walls, eliminating virtually everyone.

In other words, those sieging the keep are trying to take the keep and those defending it are trying to stop. Then a ball group shows up, and the entire 'battle' is over in moments. What was a fun siege and also a fun, engaging defense has no been reduced to a Saturday morning cartoon show. A 'gotcha' if you will. We're not playing Zelda 2 anymore we're playing mine sweeper, and everyone just died. End of battle, end of PvP. That's it. The ball groups are the only ones left standing and everyone else is left enraged and disappointed. Lot of people left looking over their shoulder.

Next we have: "So where are good, organized groups supposed to play?"

I have a question. Why aren't there as many ball groups in places like Vengeance as there are in Greyhost? And its been my experience, there really aren't any ball groups in Vengeance. Now, if you say those ball groupers are 'good' then what makes them good if that characterization doesn't apply universally to every PvP mode? I have a theory ok. The ball groups are no better than the rest of us.

Let me repeat that for clarity sake: The ball groupers are no better than solos or even casuals. In fact, I am perhaps a better solo player than most players in the average ball group. Why is that? The answer is you're not just organized, your groups are built in a lab to utilize only certain abilities that make the strongest impact on the group functionality that ZOS built for PvP. So I would be willing to bet... if most of those ball grouper guys were on their own most would do just as well as the average PvPer.

Another thing you mention organized groups. Ok, you don't have to be a ball grouper to be considered in an organized group... or to be 'good'. These terms the ball group advocates use, saying things like good or um we're just an organized group, that's not true exclusively just for them because that's how its being presented and that is gaslighting in a way. Because those terms are not exclusive to ball groups. And so, if we agree they're not, then the ball groups must be doing something wrong. Yeah, something's not right. A better term would be organized computer meta group. Because your groups are meta. Meta is an ego thing but its also many times, part of a larger problem.

And I'm not telling anyone what to do or how to play. I'm not jumping on Zone to insult people who did good things for me in the part and I'm not better than anyone else. But I'm also a good... thru years of experience. Without exploiting group buffs to produce a lab creation. I just don't understand why ZOS don't fix this. This is why you have Vengeance. Vengeance is here and I'm sorry that some don't like it but please understand, we've had enough humble pie and enough of these one-sided engagements with a full siege at Arrius, consisting of Coldfires and Lancers, this is just one example, a FULL SIEGE could not kill one 12-man ball group. Bombers couldn't do anything to them either we all had to just 'wait' on them to leave.

Its rude, its not sportsman like and it mirrors some of the worst excesses in other areas of the game and it just baffles me why this has been allowed to go on as long as it has. I could keep going I could tie this into something else to justify why it happened. Sometimes things reach a point where if people, won't do right, Karma will do the job for us. Things were so much better back in the day when we did not have to deal with ball groups and players were expected to demonstrate 'their worth' not what 11 or so other people could do for them. Ball group is a very selfish thing and you guys mock the rest of us every time you login and interrupt good people just wanting to PvP and not deal with meta monsters and egos that demand that both faction are crushed before them in an exploitive way, one in which other groups can't compete with them.

There is no healthy competition with a ball group around. You can say whatever you like and please do. But there's not and that is the truth from someone who is really sick and tired of dealing with people getting away with things that would get me banned overnight. It's not ok just because you're whoever. If you want my respect then come down from your meta towers and I would be glad to meet any of you, any day on the battlefield. I am not afraid of anyone but you know what? I'm just sick of sitting here and listening to people being deceived when they KNOW something is wrong. Even if they don't like or agree with me. That said, I have tried to do the right thing in many instances and every time its these folks here doing whatever they want, and others pretending to be someone who actions reflect those of mine, but they don't show it. It's easier for them to be just as arrogant and very cold hearted in their treatment of their fellow PvPers/Guildies.

And I'm just sick and tired of it. I'm tired of trying and using skill when others can just exploit and move so fast so easily. PvP wise, this is not what I sub'd for. I will continue to sub but this is not what many of us asked for. Game was alot better back in the day 2017-2021 era. All this new stuff they've introduced has just made the game less friendly and enabled bad actors to run exploits and make no mistake, when you take a buff like a group buff and you're pushing it further than it was intended that's an exploit. Most other groups can't do that organically, just like a hack. Like a wall hack or something of that nature, you're intentionally targeting things to buff them beyond their intended purpose. A shield for a person should not change within a group. We don't get treated the same way as the ball groups are.

I still don't understand why it is wrong to kill enemies no matter where they are in a keep.
And if we are killing them over and over again it means they keep spawning at a camp and keep coming back. How else could that happen? I guess we should let them take the keep.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So where are good, organized groups supposed to play?
And no most of us don't run around the top of keeps killing people, unless you are not in our alliance.
What, we shouldn't kill enemies in our keep?

I've played ESO for a great many years now and in the last year have moved to PvE almost exclusively, barring few times I might play on Vengeance or GH. That is the exception now. Why is that. Is it because I'm a bad player/PvPer? Nope. And playing on Vengeance doesn't make a you a bad either. But there are reasons. Let's briefly cross examine those vs what you just had said.

"And no most of us don't run around the top of keeps killing people"

- Actually, I can say with absolutely certainty this statement is not accurate. I'm not saying anyone is being 'untruthful'. I am saying this is totally wrong. Most of the time ball groups ride around the keep, or a group of factions who have collected in one area, or they ride around the walls, eliminating virtually everyone.

In other words, those sieging the keep are trying to take the keep and those defending it are trying to stop. Then a ball group shows up, and the entire 'battle' is over in moments. What was a fun siege and also a fun, engaging defense has no been reduced to a Saturday morning cartoon show. A 'gotcha' if you will. We're not playing Zelda 2 anymore we're playing mine sweeper, and everyone just died. End of battle, end of PvP. That's it. The ball groups are the only ones left standing and everyone else is left enraged and disappointed. Lot of people left looking over their shoulder.

Next we have: "So where are good, organized groups supposed to play?"

I have a question. Why aren't there as many ball groups in places like Vengeance as there are in Greyhost? And its been my experience, there really aren't any ball groups in Vengeance. Now, if you say those ball groupers are 'good' then what makes them good if that characterization doesn't apply universally to every PvP mode? I have a theory ok. The ball groups are no better than the rest of us.

Let me repeat that for clarity sake: The ball groupers are no better than solos or even casuals. In fact, I am perhaps a better solo player than most players in the average ball group. Why is that? The answer is you're not just organized, your groups are built in a lab to utilize only certain abilities that make the strongest impact on the group functionality that ZOS built for PvP. So I would be willing to bet... if most of those ball grouper guys were on their own most would do just as well as the average PvPer.

Another thing you mention organized groups. Ok, you don't have to be a ball grouper to be considered in an organized group... or to be 'good'. These terms the ball group advocates use, saying things like good or um we're just an organized group, that's not true exclusively just for them because that's how its being presented and that is gaslighting in a way. Because those terms are not exclusive to ball groups. And so, if we agree they're not, then the ball groups must be doing something wrong. Yeah, something's not right. A better term would be organized computer meta group. Because your groups are meta. Meta is an ego thing but its also many times, part of a larger problem.

And I'm not telling anyone what to do or how to play. I'm not jumping on Zone to insult people who did good things for me in the part and I'm not better than anyone else. But I'm also a good... by my own strength. Without exploiting group buffs to produce a lab creation. I just don't understand why ZOS don't fix this. This is why you have Vengeance. Vengeance is here and I'm sorry that some don't like it but please understand, we've had enough humble pie and enough of these one-sided engagements with a full siege at Arrius, consisting of Coldfires and Lancers, this is just one example, a FULL SIEGE could not kill one 12-man ball group. Bombers couldn't do anything to them either we all had to just 'wait' on them to leave.

Its rude, its not sportsman like and it mirrors some of the worst excesses in other areas of the game and it just baffles me why this has been allowed to go on as long as it has. I could keep going I could tie this into something else to justify why it happened. Sometimes things reach a point where if people, won't do right, Karma will do the job for us. Things were so much better back in the day when we did not have to deal with ball groups and players were expected to demonstrate 'their worth' not what 11 or so other people could do for them. Ball group is a very selfish thing and you guys mock the rest of us every time you login and interrupt good people just wanting to PvP and not deal with meta monsters and egos that demand that both faction are crushed before them in an exploitive way, one in which other groups can't compete with them.

There is no healthy competition with a ball group around. You can say whatever you like and please do. But there's not and that is the truth from someone who is really sick and tired of dealing with people getting away with things that would get me banned overnight. It's not ok just because you're whoever. If you want my respect then come down from your meta towers and I would be glad to meet any of you, any day on the battlefield. I am not afraid of anyone but you know what? I'm just sick of sitting here and listening to people being deceived when they KNOW something is wrong. Even if they don't like or agree with me. That said, I have tried to do the right thing in many instances and every time its these folks here doing whatever they want, and others pretending to be someone who actions reflect those of mine, but they don't show it. It's easier for them to be just as arrogant and very cold hearted in their treatment of their fellow PvPers/Guildies.

And I'm just sick and tired of it. I'm tired of trying and using skill when others can just exploit and move so fast so easily. PvP wise, this is not what I sub'd for. I will continue to sub but this is not what many of us asked for. Game was alot better back in the day 2017-2021 era. All this new stuff they've introduced has just made the game less friendly and enabled bad actors to run exploits and make no mistake, when you take a buff like a group buff and you're pushing it further than it was intended that's an exploit. Most other groups can't do that organically, just like a hack. Like a wall hack or something of that nature, you're intentionally targeting things to buff them beyond their intended purpose. A shield for a person should not change within a group. We don't get treated the same way as the ball groups are.

I am really just prefering to play vengeance right now

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I still don't understand why it is wrong to kill enemies no matter where they are in a keep.
And if we are killing them over and over again it means they keep spawning at a camp and keep coming back. How else could that happen? I guess we should let them take the keep.

I’m going to try to have an honest conversation here, even though I suspect you’ll only read the next sentence and reply “so what’s the problem?”

No one is saying there’s anything wrong with where someone is killed or where a fight is happening. That is not the conversation we’re having. I’m not sure if you missed that or if you’re deliberately misrepresenting it to derail the discussion.

The actual issue is ball groups... how they operate, how long they operate, and especially the impact this has on the 95% of players who aren’t in them. The result is those players leaving the game.

Side note: It’s interesting that over the years there have been dozens of threads about ball groups, and no one from ZOS has ever actually commented on any of them (aside from mods telling people to stop fighting). It almost feels like the studio has an intentional comms blackout on the subject. Even their PvP surveys have never once mentioned ball groups or referenced that style of play. Odd. @ZOS_Kevin

Four_Fingers wrote: »

They should make something like battlegrounds for people that don't want to fight groups, oh wait...
Maybe they should add a solo arena or make grouping mandatory in GH.
Or better yet just leave it alone.

Sometimes (most of the time in fact) if you have nothing to say it’s better to stay silent instead of saying whatever just for the sake of it.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Sorry, but I will say what I want to say as long as it is within TOS.
I will not be bullied by people with an agenda of eliminating a play style.
I state facts that contradict the misinformation that gets spread, since when is disagreement not allowed on this forum?
If you ask me this thread has run it's course.

Nice try getting this thread closed and wanting to eliminate free speech because all you have done is spread misinformation. You don't like or can't handle everyone sees it in this post and ignores you.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Sorry, but I will say what I want to say as long as it is within TOS.
I will not be bullied by people with an agenda of eliminating a play style.
I state facts that contradict the misinformation that gets spread, since when is disagreement not allowed on this forum?
If you ask me this thread has run it's course.

No one is trying to eliminate ball groups, in fact I think a lot of people (including those of us in varying skill level ball groups) have gone out of our way to say how you could keep ball groups while still encouraging a healthy play style for the remaining majority of players.

Your "facts" are just - I get off on bullying people relentlessly until they quick - what's the problem? You're not having a conversation or putting any "facts" out there to counter "misinformation". One could argue, a lot of your "facts" have in fact been.."misinformation".

And yes, you're just trying to bait to get this thread closed.

-xcatguy

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I have a genuine question for those here who run in ball groups - what is your purpose? What do you want to do when you log in to Cyro?

I would presume its have a good fight? That’s understandable.

On PSEu, the problem is that does not seem to be the case. All the bgs want to do is just steam roll over other players. To turn up when a keep has just been taken & then run in and just troll without actually taking the keep. To run away or log out when there are enough people to give a decent fight.

All of those behaviours do not make ball groups popular. This is why there are complaints.

I don't play in ballgroups so I can't really speak for what motivates them; my personal opinion is that they want to fight outnumbered. Also, I haven't played in regular Cyro since many years, so perhaps my observations are now outdated. But this part about logging out did catch my attention, because I saw exactly that recently.

During the last Vengeance test, there was a callout in zone about a ballgroup sieging Glade so I went to check. Normally, we never see ballgroups in Veng. When I arrived, they were sieging the inner (I know some of the @names, not a new guild), so I popped out my coldfire ballista and shot at the ram. That one shot made the ballgroup abandon the ram and move to the side of the keep. Since they were still in my range, they moved to the back tower; I followed them and they wiped after a few shots. That was it from them; they just logged out. Before I started using siege against them, I could see that abilities were having little to no effect on them. And yet, they just quit after one player with a coldfire showed up; which makes me wonder about the quality of nowadays' ballgroups. Are they so spoiled with their easy victories that they lost the ability to adapt, and are now devoid of any desire for challenge?

I used to believe that challenge was the main point of it, but as populations decreased and organized groups' power increased, this once valid playstyle is becoming on par with AP trains, it appears.

LadyGP wrote: »

Side note: It’s interesting that over the years there have been dozens of threads about ball groups, and no one from ZOS has ever actually commented on any of them (aside from mods telling people to stop fighting). It almost feels like the studio has an intentional comms blackout on the subject. Even their PvP surveys have never once mentioned ball groups or referenced that style of play. Odd. @ZOS_Kevin

Isn't ESO a 'play how you want' game? If someone wants to run highly organized groups in a mode that is designed for groups, and confront bigger numbers than their own, isn't that legit? I don't think ZOS needs to address ballgroups; and if a specific group plays in a particularly toxic way, then there is the report system. What ZOS needs to address is all the probably unintended power that was bestowed on such groups over the years, which they seem to be doing with the upcoming changes to shielding. The whole neverending discussion about ballgroups isn't really about ballgroups, but about the awful state of balance in PvP, and about the need to balance PvP and PvE separately.

Stop allowing shields to scale off health or limit it to max HP in battle spirit.