Im sorry, however fighting none stop Ball Groups is just not fun

RedMamba · August 19

Most ball groups run around as 6 players now and the current shield changes won't impact them at all on PTS @ZOS_Kevin

LadyGP · August 19

RedMamba wrote: »

Most ball groups run around as 6 players now and the current shield changes won't impact them at all on PTS @ZOS_Kevin

CannedChicken wrote: »

React wrote: »

Hopefully they go a bit harder on the shield adjustments than what they've currently proposed on the PTS. They need to be more aggressive starting at a much smaller group size (6) and perhaps slightly more harsh at cap group size (12) than what is currently being proposed.

Of course, it would be better if they'd also change the scaling on shields in PVP to never use health, and instead only use max resources. But for some reason they seem very attached to health scaling heals/shields when they are objectively problematic 99% of the time they're in the game.

Smaller groups aren't really an issue. Its the 11 and 12 mans that are hard to kill.

Edit: Also no to max resource scaling anything. They killed every single heal proc set because no one will ever stack max resources because it isn't worth the trade offs. I guess if your goal is to completely kill shielding that is something you would ask for.

This is factually inacurate. There are a lot of small 6 person groups that are 100% a problem and some that are even stronger than the majority of 12 man ball groups.

Come to DC some time if people want to experience it first hand.

- xCatGuy

LadyGP · August 19

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Well then buffs and heals should be reduced the more zerglings in the area as well.
If groups were eliminated, they won't have us to follow and leech ap off of anymore, as that is usually going on.

You're conflating a lot of things into a single argument "well there are taking something away from me so everyone else has to be punished".

You will still be fine, you can still farm pugs, zergs will still follow you - it will all be okay.

Another aspect to this conversation I'd like to see them take a look at is... working on some of the buffs/synergies and how many people can interact with them - or more importantly how they interact with the server.

It's so frustrating, for those outside of a ball group, when there is a ball group around you and they cycle their buffs. There literally is a 1-2 second hitch/lockup when everything "pops".

When I'm inside a ball group.. no lag at all.. the second I drop group... it's pure hell when they cycle. Alot of these performance related issues could be resolved if they looked at this moment in particular.

- xCatGuy

NovelliESO · August 19

I think shields in PvP should always be maxed at 100% HP regardless of group size and start scaling down from 6 people.

LadyGP · August 19

NovelliESO wrote: »

I think shields in PvP should always be maxed at 100% HP regardless of group size and start scaling down from 6 people.

Agreed.

There is a middle ground we could all reach.. everyone just has to be willing to have the conversation instead of standing on their high horse screaming get good.

-xcatguy

Four_Fingers · August 19

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Well then buffs and heals should be reduced the more zerglings in the area as well.
If groups were eliminated, they won't have us to follow and leech ap off of anymore, as that is usually going on.

You're conflating a lot of things into a single argument "well there are taking something away from me so everyone else has to be punished".

You will still be fine, you can still farm pugs, zergs will still follow you - it will all be okay.

Another aspect to this conversation I'd like to see them take a look at is... working on some of the buffs/synergies and how many people can interact with them - or more importantly how they interact with the server.

It's so frustrating, for those outside of a ball group, when there is a ball group around you and they cycle their buffs. There literally is a 1-2 second hitch/lockup when everything "pops".

When I'm inside a ball group.. no lag at all.. the second I drop group... it's pure hell when they cycle. Alot of these performance related issues could be resolved if they looked at this moment in particular.

- xCatGuy

Oh, we definitely will be ok groups always adapt, we even dominate in Vengeance when I can convince enough guildies to play there. lol

SerafinaWaterstar · August 19

Siege is strong against ball groups?! 🤣🤣

Do you have stronger siege on your server? On PSEU it takes A LOT of siege to even make a minor dent in some ball groups.

Yes, it can be thing that really helps but that’s only when en masse ( 2-3 coldfire, couple of meatbags & some fancy ballistas, plus whatever else & those on the frontline).

As a side note, I really wish players would learn to stop chasing after ball groups. Hold back and spread out can really help.

NovelliESO · August 19

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Siege is strong against ball groups?! 🤣🤣

Do you have stronger siege on your server? On PSEU it takes A LOT of siege to even make a minor dent in some ball groups.

Yes, it can be thing that really helps but that’s only when en masse ( 2-3 coldfire, couple of meatbags & some fancy ballistas, plus whatever else & those on the frontline).

As a side note, I really wish players would learn to stop chasing after ball groups. Hold back and spread out can really help.

Yes, siege is objectively strong against ballgroups. It does more damage in AoE and applies unique debuffs that do more to groups than anything else does, from complete safety, with the exception of another group or just a zerg of people. Siege is strong against anyone unless they are purge spamming, but if they are in a group they shouldn't be because of plague.

BardokRedSnow · August 19

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

This is why the ballgroup balance discussions never go anywhere. The talk of cheaters and exploits always comes up and no one that plays pvp normally takes it serious. Unless you're in DC zone chat.

Using game mechanics etc is not an exploit, an example of an actual exploit is getting multiple mundus buffs. Without twice born

RedMamba · August 19

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

BardokRedSnow · August 19

RedMamba wrote: »

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

4-6 players are not tormenting factions alone and isnt a ballgroup. If you die to them at that point thats especially just your fault since they're small enough you don't have to engage them. Thats just a highly coordinated smallman.

That doesn't mean there doesnt need to be more balancing but you can't call everything a ballgroup. 4-6 mans are also not causing lag.

And before Im called out no im not saying that because I play in 4-6mans, lol we build like solos with a single healer, maybe two at times. We're not highly coordinated like the smallmans he's talking about.

RedMamba · August 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

4-6 players are not tormenting factions alone and isnt a ballgroup. If you die to them at that point thats especially just your fault since they're small enough you don't have to engage them. Thats just a highly coordinated smallman.

That doesn't mean there doesnt need to be more balancing but you can't call everything a ballgroup. 4-6 mans are also not causing lag.

And before Im called out no im not saying that because I play in 4-6mans, lol we build like solos with a single healer, maybe two at times. We're not highly coordinated like the smallmans he's talking about.

They are actually and that's the new ball group size.. Nice try

Kartalin · August 19

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Siege is strong against ball groups?! 🤣🤣

Do you have stronger siege on your server? On PSEU it takes A LOT of siege to even make a minor dent in some ball groups.

Yes, it can be thing that really helps but that’s only when en masse ( 2-3 coldfire, couple of meatbags & some fancy ballistas, plus whatever else & those on the frontline).

As a side note, I really wish players would learn to stop chasing after ball groups. Hold back and spread out can really help.

There's a reason ball groups attack non-frontline keeps -- to get in before the counter siege becomes oppressive. Otherwise we're looking for fights that are already ongoing, preferably between the two opposing factions.

Outside of hammer fights where it's a necessary evil, ball groups don't really like to play around our own factions' pugs because:
1) They tend to blow us up
2) They mess up our offensive pushes because they cc our opponents before we want them to be cc'd

Major_Mangle · August 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

4-6 players are not tormenting factions alone and isnt a ballgroup. If you die to them at that point thats especially just your fault since they're small enough you don't have to engage them. Thats just a highly coordinated smallman.

That doesn't mean there doesnt need to be more balancing but you can't call everything a ballgroup. 4-6 mans are also not causing lag.

And before Im called out no im not saying that because I play in 4-6mans, lol we build like solos with a single healer, maybe two at times. We're not highly coordinated like the smallmans he's talking about.

A good 6 man can definitely torment a faction (especially nowadays with how insane stats/powercreep is) and can 100% be considered a ballgroup.

Edit: anything above 4 is technically not a small-scale (the game asks if you want to become a "large group" when going from 4 to 5, hence there lies the definition)

BardokRedSnow · August 19

RedMamba wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

4-6 players are not tormenting factions alone and isnt a ballgroup. If you die to them at that point thats especially just your fault since they're small enough you don't have to engage them. Thats just a highly coordinated smallman.

That doesn't mean there doesnt need to be more balancing but you can't call everything a ballgroup. 4-6 mans are also not causing lag.

And before Im called out no im not saying that because I play in 4-6mans, lol we build like solos with a single healer, maybe two at times. We're not highly coordinated like the smallmans he's talking about.

They are actually and that's the new ball group size.. Nice try

Alright then get a group of 4-6 and beat them. As much as I dislike ballgroups, regardless of the balance changes zos makes at the end of the day they are going to adapt to changes and more times than not they're gonna outperform people less coordinated than them.

While I agree more balance is needed, in general, its not because balls decided to break up into 4-6 mans if thats actually true.

And if it is I'd say thats a pretty fair adjustment and is nothing to complain about.

RedMamba · August 19

No one runs ball groups that size anymore. They run 4-6 and groups you see running around with 12 are just uncoordinated zergs.

Four_Fingers · August 19

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if they added a campaign with the ruleset of GH but disabled grouping, there would still be complaints, and it would be dead campaign because they still would want to play GH.
The Vengeance campaign is a good example.

BardokRedSnow · August 19

Major_Mangle wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

I don't get why they won't communicate or update us on shield changes since they missed the mark. Ball groups are 4-6 players now not 12.

4-6 players are not tormenting factions alone and isnt a ballgroup. If you die to them at that point thats especially just your fault since they're small enough you don't have to engage them. Thats just a highly coordinated smallman.

That doesn't mean there doesnt need to be more balancing but you can't call everything a ballgroup. 4-6 mans are also not causing lag.

And before Im called out no im not saying that because I play in 4-6mans, lol we build like solos with a single healer, maybe two at times. We're not highly coordinated like the smallmans he's talking about.

A good 6 man can definitely torment a faction (especially nowadays with how insane stats/powercreep is) and can 100% be considered a ballgroup.

Edit: anything above 4 is technically not a small-scale (the game asks if you want to become a "large group" when going from 4 to 5, hence there lies the definition)

I guess it depends on your definition of torment in cyrodiil, but what I mean is farming them endlessly in glade for instance like what happens so often, bombing groups of pugs at a time, not just running around the walls getting a few of them here and there and being hard to focus down.

At least in PCNA the most Ive observed is multiple 8-12 mans in the same area doing this. But a single 6 man group should be easy enough to handle by literally the faction.

And I dont mean in the morning when the factions are low pop. What happens with balls that ive seen is they lose 3 or more members thats when they inevitably die soon after or they run out the keep to put down a tent and start over.

Thats why I am dubious of the claim that six people are farming factions in keeps the way ballgroups of 12 are known to.

Four_Fingers · August 19

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

RedMamba · August 19

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

You don't get to define how someone enjoys PvPing.

Four_Fingers · August 19

RedMamba wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

You don't get to define how someone enjoys PvPing.

I didn't define how anyone plays, never said you couldn't farm just why there is so much of it.
What is with all the locked profiles anyway? lol

LadyGP · August 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

This is why the ballgroup balance discussions never go anywhere. The talk of cheaters and exploits always comes up and no one that plays pvp normally takes it serious. Unless you're in DC zone chat.

Using game mechanics etc is not an exploit, an example of an actual exploit is getting multiple mundus buffs. Without twice born

DC zone chat here - we don't take those randoms who scream exploit seriously and they often get corrected very quickly they arne't exploiting.

- xCatGuy

LadyGP · August 19

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

No one is signing up for ball group raids because they want to get "alliance rank to 50".

Lets be honest here. I've ran with ball groups for 6 years and not ONE time has someone said hey.. I need to push to 50.. let me sign up for a ball group to maximize the efficiency of this.

Unrelated:

I'd also like to point out the overwhelming majority of people what post on these forums are the top ~ 10% of players. The majority of casuals, the ones who leave the game because of ball groups, are not on the forums and you're not getting their feedback anywhere.

They simply just uninstall and that is it.

- xCatGuy

SerafinaWaterstar · August 19

Kartalin wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Siege is strong against ball groups?! 🤣🤣

Do you have stronger siege on your server? On PSEU it takes A LOT of siege to even make a minor dent in some ball groups.

Yes, it can be thing that really helps but that’s only when en masse ( 2-3 coldfire, couple of meatbags & some fancy ballistas, plus whatever else & those on the frontline).

As a side note, I really wish players would learn to stop chasing after ball groups. Hold back and spread out can really help.

There's a reason ball groups attack non-frontline keeps -- to get in before the counter siege becomes oppressive. Otherwise we're looking for fights that are already ongoing, preferably between the two opposing factions.

Outside of hammer fights where it's a necessary evil, ball groups don't really like to play around our own factions' pugs because:
1) They tend to blow us up
2) They mess up our offensive pushes because they cc our opponents before we want them to be cc'd

Watching the video - what on EARTH are those crescent things stacked on top of someone?! Never ever seen that before.

NovelliESO · August 19

It's always nice coming to the forums and seeing a bunch of misinformation by people who don't know what they are talking about or just choose to randomly lie for some reason.

Ballgroups of 12 still do exist, there are plenty, ballgroups above 12 also exist, people run multiple groups at a time. 4-6 is not some "new" ballgroup size, these groups have existed forever. A 4-6 man group is still lacking an insane amount compared to a 12 man group in the current meta. If you are being tormented by a 4-6 man group it is simply because you lack the ability to perform in the game, and if that is the case, leave the fight. Another group can kill them.

BardokRedSnow · August 19

LadyGP wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

This is why the ballgroup balance discussions never go anywhere. The talk of cheaters and exploits always comes up and no one that plays pvp normally takes it serious. Unless you're in DC zone chat.

Using game mechanics etc is not an exploit, an example of an actual exploit is getting multiple mundus buffs. Without twice born

DC zone chat here - we don't take those randoms who scream exploit seriously and they often get corrected very quickly they arne't exploiting.

- xCatGuy

Was there for four years, you know there's a lot of em lol and its a daily thing xD

Kartalin · August 19

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Siege is strong against ball groups?! 🤣🤣

Do you have stronger siege on your server? On PSEU it takes A LOT of siege to even make a minor dent in some ball groups.

Yes, it can be thing that really helps but that’s only when en masse ( 2-3 coldfire, couple of meatbags & some fancy ballistas, plus whatever else & those on the frontline).

As a side note, I really wish players would learn to stop chasing after ball groups. Hold back and spread out can really help.

There's a reason ball groups attack non-frontline keeps -- to get in before the counter siege becomes oppressive. Otherwise we're looking for fights that are already ongoing, preferably between the two opposing factions.

Outside of hammer fights where it's a necessary evil, ball groups don't really like to play around our own factions' pugs because:
1) They tend to blow us up
2) They mess up our offensive pushes because they cc our opponents before we want them to be cc'd

Watching the video - what on EARTH are those crescent things stacked on top of someone?! Never ever seen that before.

Some people prefer beams of various colors, but that's just what I use to denote where crown is. It's easy to lose track of the Crown icon in base game. This is a feature of RDK, an add-on that basically all ball groups use

Four_Fingers · August 19

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

No one is signing up for ball group raids because they want to get "alliance rank to 50".

Lets be honest here. I've ran with ball groups for 6 years and not ONE time has someone said hey.. I need to push to 50.. let me sign up for a ball group to maximize the efficiency of this.

Unrelated:

I'd also like to point out the overwhelming majority of people what post on these forums are the top ~ 10% of players. The majority of casuals, the ones who leave the game because of ball groups, are not on the forums and you're not getting their feedback anywhere.

They simply just uninstall and that is it.

- xCatGuy

It is not just ball groups that farm.
But it is always about the ap if you will be honest.
Now I am getting out of this circular argument.

NovelliESO · August 19

Four_Fingers wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

No one is signing up for ball group raids because they want to get "alliance rank to 50".

Lets be honest here. I've ran with ball groups for 6 years and not ONE time has someone said hey.. I need to push to 50.. let me sign up for a ball group to maximize the efficiency of this.

Unrelated:

I'd also like to point out the overwhelming majority of people what post on these forums are the top ~ 10% of players. The majority of casuals, the ones who leave the game because of ball groups, are not on the forums and you're not getting their feedback anywhere.

They simply just uninstall and that is it.

- xCatGuy

It is not just ball groups that farm.
But it is always about the ap if you will be honest.
Now I am getting out of this circular argument.

I never care about how much AP I make, I only care about getting entertaining out numbered fights or GvGs. AP means literally nothing to me or any of the people I run with.

LadyGP · August 19

NovelliESO wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why does anyone farm in the first place?
Because it is the fastest way to get the 64,000,000 ap you need to advance your alliance rank to 50.
Maybe if winning the campaign for your alliance did more to advance your alliance rank we would see less farming.

No one is signing up for ball group raids because they want to get "alliance rank to 50".

Lets be honest here. I've ran with ball groups for 6 years and not ONE time has someone said hey.. I need to push to 50.. let me sign up for a ball group to maximize the efficiency of this.

Unrelated:

I'd also like to point out the overwhelming majority of people what post on these forums are the top ~ 10% of players. The majority of casuals, the ones who leave the game because of ball groups, are not on the forums and you're not getting their feedback anywhere.

They simply just uninstall and that is it.

- xCatGuy

It is not just ball groups that farm.
But it is always about the ap if you will be honest.
Now I am getting out of this circular argument.

I never care about how much AP I make, I only care about getting entertaining out numbered fights or GvGs. AP means literally nothing to me or any of the people I run with.

Literally this. The AP is just a by product - not the intended outcome. The intended outcome is farming/destorying people and having really good "fights".