Conservation of Energy

Zallion · August 18

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

madmufffin · August 18

And make the change PVP only because the mastery is nice on tanks in PVE

Zallion · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

And make the change PVP only because the mastery is nice on tanks in PVE

Fine with that.

acanca · August 18

This class mastery should have never left pts in this state, the value it offers is inexcusably high.

Its at the same time both the single strongest healing class mastery in the game.

And the strongest sustain class mastery in the game.

And the value it offers is so absurd that both the healing and sustain from it is higher than what you can get with a 5 piece set.

Its a matter of fact that this class mastery is overpowered for pvp and should be toned down.

Panderbander · August 18

Just accept that ESO stands for "Elder Sorcs Online" and then it's fiiiiiine

/s

Zyaneth_Bal · August 18

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

It’s not “abnormal offensive pressure” every class is capable of decent levels of damage, if you are not it’s solely a you issue, literally nothing more to that and no need to say otherwise.
Sorc class kit is garbage and it’s hard carried by conservation of energy, allowing it to build glass cannon to at least have competitive damage. If sorc had to run a sustain set again, it would still remain the squishiest class but with low damage too and would go right back to the trash bin. It’s not even fully carrying sustain despite what you want to think and unlike core of flames, you still need sustain cp, traits, skills and watch skill costs at the very least. It already has an internal cd btw.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

ItsNotLiving · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

acanca · August 18

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

Either every one gets infinite sustain or no one. Sustain is one of the pillars of the game, obviously the game does not work right when its broken on one class.

ItsNotLiving · August 18

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

Either every one gets infinite sustain or no one. Sustain is one of the pillars of the game, obviously the game does not work right when its broken on one class.

Yes.

Zallion · August 18

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

It’s not “abnormal offensive pressure” every class is capable of decent levels of damage, if you are not it’s solely a you issue, literally nothing more to that and no need to say otherwise.
Sorc class kit is garbage and it’s hard carried by conservation of energy, allowing it to build glass cannon to at least have competitive damage. If sorc had to run a sustain set again, it would still remain the squishiest class but with low damage too and would go right back to the trash bin. It’s not even fully carrying sustain despite what you want to think and unlike core of flames, you still need sustain cp, traits, skills and watch skill costs at the very least. It already has an internal cd btw.

I think the game is healthiest when a more even spread of classes are viable. I don’t want to see sorc nerfed into the ground here, they spent years at the bottom a while back. I just think with that even spread, all the times we’ve been closest to that are when all classes are more or less playing by the same rules - balancing damage, sustain, and survivability. It’s obvious why DK, sorc, and WWs by extension of sorc are all you see these days. They ignore one of the three pillars almost all together and people like to win. Seriously, playing anything other than those 3 is almost like playing a different game sometimes. An alternative is to give every class the same capabilities with sustain and see what comes of it. But yeah they’re hard carried by it. DK is hardcarried by HoF as well.

gammelscroll · August 18

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

Either every one gets infinite sustain or no one. Sustain is one of the pillars of the game, obviously the game does not work right when its broken on one class.

YES!! lets remove Dark deal also!! And force sorcs to use double sustain set!!

ItsNotLiving · August 18

gammelscroll wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

Either every one gets infinite sustain or no one. Sustain is one of the pillars of the game, obviously the game does not work right when its broken on one class.

YES!! lets remove Dark deal also!! And force sorcs to use double sustain set!!

Dude no one is saying to remove it. Everyone else has to build for sustain and sorcerer doesn’t it’s super simple.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

And Sorcs that aren't the DoT Sorc build (or WW) still have to build into sustain, just not as drastically as other pre-refresh classes.

Sphere of influence, Dark Deal, Energy Overload, Sorc passives, tri-pots, etc. all are still needed, especially for builds that aren't the DoT build that is utilizing the interactions I outlined above.

It's why I said, fixing those interactions would fix the issues with CoE because it directly targets the interactions that are causing issues without completely nerfing other builds that do still need to follow the general rule of investing part of their build into sustain.

For context as to the recoveries and why the comparison of CoE to CoF is so absurd:

CoE gives 500/1000 recoveries on average, or 1500 to 1800 mag recovery (halved for stam) when building directly into max mag (at the cost of every other stat)

CoF gives 3k recoveries (2400 post U52 nerf) or double what CoE gives and all based on 20k mag/stam with zero build cost or effort put into building around it at all, even more recoveries are possible with minimal investment into mag or stam.

The reason CoE feels so strong on the DoT sorc build is because of the healing + sustain on core combat and cheap/free to cast abilities like ele sus (getting nerfed already) and Blood for Blood (should not interact with CoE) that get offset by the return via core combat (in the case of ele sus) or the healing from CoE (in the case of B4B).
Having blood magic proc on core combat also allows the build to not run vigor, which is 3k stam per cast or 600 stam per second (assuming proper uptime on the HoT when playing defensive). This is equivalent to 1200 stam recovery (ticks every 2 seconds so 600 x 2) just from this single build change alone and when combined with the no cost ele sus that reliably procs surge healing means even less time required healing up when under pressure and also more free pressure forcing enemies to go defensive earlier which means even less time spent remaining defensive.

Take these away and the mastery is strong when built directly around (i.e. stacking max stats), but not completely overwhelming and definitely still not as free as CoF is (even post nerf CoF).

acanca · August 18

gammelscroll wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

Either every one gets infinite sustain or no one. Sustain is one of the pillars of the game, obviously the game does not work right when its broken on one class.

YES!! lets remove Dark deal also!! And force sorcs to use double sustain set!!

Now, templar, warden, arcanist, nightblade all play by the same rules. Hell, if core of flame is further toned down (that should absolutely happen), even dks will play by the same rules.

Why do you think sorc should be the exception? Why do you think sorcerer should be the only class that does not need to use a sustain food, does not even need to think about using a sustain mundus, does not need to use sustain pots and does not need to use sustain sets?

You were, quite obviously exaggerating by even suggesting that sorc playing with the same rules as the rest of the classes would be the same as having to use two sustain sets. But what im stating is a matter of fact.Sorcerer at the moment does not need any of that and thats simply the sustain part.

The heal is arguably even more problematic. Having a constant heal over time that when built right heals for 2-3k per second with no cool down, no duration, and no cost even with battle spirit active? It is mind boggling that you are even attempting to argue for it.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

Zallion wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

It’s not “abnormal offensive pressure” every class is capable of decent levels of damage, if you are not it’s solely a you issue, literally nothing more to that and no need to say otherwise.
Sorc class kit is garbage and it’s hard carried by conservation of energy, allowing it to build glass cannon to at least have competitive damage. If sorc had to run a sustain set again, it would still remain the squishiest class but with low damage too and would go right back to the trash bin. It’s not even fully carrying sustain despite what you want to think and unlike core of flames, you still need sustain cp, traits, skills and watch skill costs at the very least. It already has an internal cd btw.

I think the game is healthiest when a more even spread of classes are viable. I don’t want to see sorc nerfed into the ground here, they spent years at the bottom a while back. I just think with that even spread, all the times we’ve been closest to that are when all classes are more or less playing by the same rules - balancing damage, sustain, and survivability. It’s obvious why DK, sorc, and WWs by extension of sorc are all you see these days. They ignore one of the three pillars almost all together and people like to win. Seriously, playing anything other than those 3 is almost like playing a different game sometimes. An alternative is to give every class the same capabilities with sustain and see what comes of it. But yeah they’re hard carried by it. DK is hardcarried by HoF as well.

This would be the ideal solution, unfortunately some people just want to see any outliers be made into outliers the other way (i.e. gutted into useless) and it's not just in ESO, but across gaming in general.

I actually posted some changes ZOS could do for other classes waiting for their refreshes in the combat updates thread in the general tab:

Plar:
Devout Guardian - While Sacred Ground is active, Rune Focus also restores the secondary Resource. (Yes this makes the morphs essentially the same and boring, but it would help plar sustain a lot, allowing plar to focus more on other areas with their slotted sets/champion points such as damage which is where they are struggling).

NB:
Share the Spoils - Also upgrades the Transfer passive to include yourself for the resource return when it procs. Also increases the resource return of Siphoning Attacks passive restore by 25%. (It's not much, but it being passive like CoE allows NB to build into defense or take better advantage of Soul Cleaver builds.)

Arc:
Fate Realigned - Now also upgrades Well Spring of the Abyss to count any Arcanist ability. (Again, not a big change, like NB, but a small buff to help explore build options without worrying entirely about sustain).

The math
For context from the above examples:
- Plar rune restores 242 mag or stam (or around 480 recovery of 1 resource, so this would make it 480 for both resources).
- Share the spoils is 250 mag + stam every 4 seconds (or 125 recovery, this just allows it to apply to the NB as well as it's group)
- Siphoning Attacks is 200 mag + stam restore every second (or 400 recovery and the 25% increase this becomes 500 recovery or 625 recovery when combined with share the spoils mastery itself)
- Wellspring is 80 tri-recovery per soldier of apocrypha ability slotted (typically 1, maybe 2 on the back bar), this would allow it to account for all Arcanist abilities, so assuming 5 Arc abilities on a bar (and not counting both bars to not inadvertently double it) would be ~400 recoveries

All of these would be a significant step closer to being on par with Sorcs Conservation of Energy (between 500 to 1000 or more depending how far the build goes into max mag/stam at the cost of other stats) without the need to build into specific stats (mag/stam) to get those recoveries like Sorc has to.

All while still being well behind Core of Flames game-breaking 15% return (or around 3000 mag + stam recoveries based on 20k max stam/mag pool) that will still be the equivalent of 2400 recoveries, that works while blocking, post nerf).

Zallion · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

It’s not “abnormal offensive pressure” every class is capable of decent levels of damage, if you are not it’s solely a you issue, literally nothing more to that and no need to say otherwise.
Sorc class kit is garbage and it’s hard carried by conservation of energy, allowing it to build glass cannon to at least have competitive damage. If sorc had to run a sustain set again, it would still remain the squishiest class but with low damage too and would go right back to the trash bin. It’s not even fully carrying sustain despite what you want to think and unlike core of flames, you still need sustain cp, traits, skills and watch skill costs at the very least. It already has an internal cd btw.

I think the game is healthiest when a more even spread of classes are viable. I don’t want to see sorc nerfed into the ground here, they spent years at the bottom a while back. I just think with that even spread, all the times we’ve been closest to that are when all classes are more or less playing by the same rules - balancing damage, sustain, and survivability. It’s obvious why DK, sorc, and WWs by extension of sorc are all you see these days. They ignore one of the three pillars almost all together and people like to win. Seriously, playing anything other than those 3 is almost like playing a different game sometimes. An alternative is to give every class the same capabilities with sustain and see what comes of it. But yeah they’re hard carried by it. DK is hardcarried by HoF as well.

This would be the ideal solution, unfortunately some people just want to see any outliers be made into outliers the other way (i.e. gutted into useless) and it's not just in ESO, but across gaming in general.

I actually posted some changes ZOS could do for other classes waiting for their refreshes in the combat updates thread in the general tab:
Plar:
Devout Guardian - While Sacred Ground is active, Rune Focus also restores the secondary Resource. (Yes this makes the morphs essentially the same and boring, but it would help plar sustain a lot, allowing plar to focus more on other areas with their slotted sets/champion points such as damage which is where they are struggling).

NB:
Share the Spoils - Also upgrades the Transfer passive to include yourself for the resource return when it procs. Also increases the resource return of Siphoning Attacks passive restore by 25%. (It's not much, but it being passive like CoE allows NB to build into defense or take better advantage of Soul Cleaver builds.)

Arc:
Fate Realigned - Now also upgrades Well Spring of the Abyss to count any Arcanist ability. (Again, not a big change, like NB, but a small buff to help explore build options without worrying entirely about sustain).

The math
For context from the above examples:
- Plar rune restores 242 mag or stam (or around 480 recovery of 1 resource, so this would make it 480 for both resources).
- Share the spoils is 250 mag + stam every 4 seconds (or 125 recovery, this just allows it to apply to the NB as well as it's group)
- Siphoning Attacks is 200 mag + stam restore every second (or 400 recovery and the 25% increase this becomes 500 recovery or 625 recovery when combined with share the spoils mastery itself)
- Wellspring is 80 tri-recovery per soldier of apocrypha ability slotted (typically 1, maybe 2 on the back bar), this would allow it to account for all Arcanist abilities, so assuming 5 Arc abilities on a bar (and not counting both bars to not inadvertently double it) would be ~400 recoveries

All of these would be a significant step closer to being on par with Sorcs Conservation of Energy (between 500 to 1000 or more depending how far the build goes into max mag/stam at the cost of other stats) without the need to build into specific stats (mag/stam) to get those recoveries like Sorc has to.

All while still being well behind Core of Flames game-breaking 15% return (or around 3000 mag + stam recoveries based on 20k max stam/mag pool) that will still be the equivalent of 2400 recoveries, that works while blocking, post nerf).

Really great suggestions and very very well thought out. What you propose would be a big step in the right direction. CoE and CoF dialed down would bring the middle ground closer. As someone else said, damage is there on all classes. A lift on sustain would leave room to push that for the classes lagging behind. Not completely, but closer. Don’t want identity ruined or homogenized with the exact sustain access, but just better tools available where there is a lack. I’m all for bringing everyone up, instead of anything getting necessarily gutted. Though to some degree, I think the sustain creep in general is not necessarily healthy for the game either - for any class. Stalemating and generally high TTK would be pushed further and further all being tied to increasing sustain. Low TTK metas have always been the most enjoyable, leaving skill expression and how classes are piloted to be the main factor rather than class choice, but everyone can die and if they can’t, they don’t have the damage to kill anything. A lot of fights end in stalemates as it is - stam checking is almost non existent etc.

It’s a pipe dream to have true balance, but the top outliers should not be this high above the others. In a tier list scenario, there’s like a vacuum between DK, Sorc, and everything else. Like the 3rd spot is up for debate tbh (probably necro but you could make a case otherwise) that’s how much the other classes are just in a world of their own - separated by their sustain more than their damage or survivability kits. Honestly, it wouldn’t be too difficult to actually fix this with some tuning and dialing in the values.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

Sustain in and of itself isn't a make or break issue, well unless there's absolute extreme outliers like core of flame and it's equivalent 3k recoveries, it's the combination of strong sustain alongside too cheap/free abilities that make it problematic.

WW was an issue because it essentially had free to cast abilities (and actually free abilities with the rampage mode) because it's abilities were so cheap that it only really had to worry about sustaining core combat, so realistically any amount of sustain would have made WW an issue (sorc was just the obvious option because of conservation, but any class that could carry over sustain in a similar way would have resulted in the same thing).

Making some small adjustments to the healing portion of CoE to enforce more usage of heals (which will naturally counter/drain the sustain CoE provides) alongside the changes I mentioned previously would be the ideal spot to have sustain at. Strong enough to encourage exploring different builds/niches with classes, but not so strong as to completely eliminate the need for any investment into it like CoF does.

Zallion · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sustain in and of itself isn't a make or break issue, well unless there's absolute extreme outliers like core of flame and it's equivalent 3k recoveries, it's the combination of strong sustain alongside too cheap/free abilities that make it problematic.

WW was an issue because it essentially had free to cast abilities (and actually free abilities with the rampage mode) because it's abilities were so cheap that it only really had to worry about sustaining core combat, so realistically any amount of sustain would have made WW an issue (sorc was just the obvious option because of conservation, but any class that could carry over sustain in a similar way would have resulted in the same thing).

Making some small adjustments to the healing portion of CoE to enforce more usage of heals (which will naturally counter/drain the sustain CoE provides) alongside the changes I mentioned previously would be the ideal spot to have sustain at. Strong enough to encourage exploring different builds/niches with classes, but not so strong as to completely eliminate the need for any investment into it like CoF does.

Problem being there are outliers such as CoF, and to a lesser extent CoE. Post shouldve included CoF in the title too - as it is more problematic in that regard and equally relevant to the conversation. Hitting the healing on CoE would have the desired effect like you mentioned. Honestly anything to reel it in.

I guess main present concerns: CoF nerf isn’t quite enough to fully address that, CoE wasn’t touched at all. And if tying opportunity costs each class makes across the board with those two things being a bit overtuned - sustain may not be the overarching problem, but it’s for sure a problem that allows DK and sorc to be where they are currently - leagues ahead of every other class.

I love your suggested changes. But it would be easier to bring the two things propping up DK and sorc down a bit, than to implement sustain buffs to the remaining five classes. At the end of the day either direction more or less effectively does the same thing, but I’m in favor of the lower ceiling solution, as more sustain means higher TTK, which I don’t think is a good thing for the meta. For personal performance obviously yes, trust me the classes I enjoy playing the most could do well with sustain buffs and it would go a long way. But fights can go on literally forever even not on sorc or dk. I don’t think they should. Maybe ultimately I’m just pro nerf sustain across the board lol. But the clear overperformers at the very least. I just want all the classes to need to make actual decisions when it comes to balancing the aspects of their builds at the end of the day though, and dislike seeing an over concentration of the same two classes because those two classes don’t need to make those considerations. Whatever gets us to that state, I’m for.

TheGodlyImage · August 18

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

aLi3nZ · August 18

Yes WW should not have access to it.

But conservation of energy is not THAT strong.

If you are playing no cp ic or bg with just 23-25k magicka because you have all points into health conservation of energy is not enough to sustain. I am wearing wretched vitality and or rokska on top of it in that case.

Conservation of energy is stronger the higher your resource is. And the meta is slam points into health. Honestly in no cp it’s still hard to sustain with it on.

In cp it’s different with all the cp points giving a crutch.

Zallion · August 18

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Into oblivion is a stretch, and what in the kit is so bad? Greatest mobility and stun in the game, strong shield, several strong delayed burst options. I don’t want anything nerfed into oblivion.

ItsNotLiving · August 18

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

Zallion wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Into oblivion is a stretch, and what in the kit is so bad? Greatest mobility and stun in the game, strong shield, several strong delayed burst options. I don’t want anything nerfed into oblivion.

The tooltip numbers and streak are good, but there is a lot in the class that has needed big changes for a long time now. A full discussion on it's own and something I have made other threads on for those who want to read up on it so as to not derail this thread.

aLi3nZ · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

And Sorcs that aren't the DoT Sorc build (or WW) still have to build into sustain, just not as drastically as other pre-refresh classes.

Sphere of influence, Dark Deal, Energy Overload, Sorc passives, tri-pots, etc. all are still needed, especially for builds that aren't the DoT build that is utilizing the interactions I outlined above.

It's why I said, fixing those interactions would fix the issues with CoE because it directly targets the interactions that are causing issues without completely nerfing other builds that do still need to follow the general rule of investing part of their build into sustain.

For context as to the recoveries and why the comparison of CoE to CoF is so absurd:

CoE gives 500/1000 recoveries on average, or 1500 to 1800 mag recovery (halved for stam) when building directly into max mag (at the cost of every other stat)

CoF gives 3k recoveries (2400 post U52 nerf) or double what CoE gives and all based on 20k mag/stam with zero build cost or effort put into building around it at all, even more recoveries are possible with minimal investment into mag or stam.

The reason CoE feels so strong on the DoT sorc build is because of the healing + sustain on core combat and cheap/free to cast abilities like ele sus (getting nerfed already) and Blood for Blood (should not interact with CoE) that get offset by the return via core combat (in the case of ele sus) or the healing from CoE (in the case of B4B).
Having blood magic proc on core combat also allows the build to not run vigor, which is 3k stam per cast or 600 stam per second (assuming proper uptime on the HoT when playing defensive). This is equivalent to 1200 stam recovery (ticks every 2 seconds so 600 x 2) just from this single build change alone and when combined with the no cost ele sus that reliably procs surge healing means even less time required healing up when under pressure and also more free pressure forcing enemies to go defensive earlier which means even less time spent remaining defensive.

Take these away and the mastery is strong when built directly around (i.e. stacking max stats), but not completely overwhelming and definitely still not as free as CoF is (even post nerf CoF).

what is the dot sorc build?

Turtle_Bot · August 18

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

Turtle_Bot · August 18

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

The mastery doesn't need a generic gutting, it needs targeted adjustments.

A generic nerf to CoE will only force every sorc into the DoT build or the Shield stacking build since nothing else will be viable.

To fix it, address the interactions Conservation has with:
- Core combat (this interaction alone removes the need to slot vigor which is a free bar slot and the equivalent of ~1200 stam regen from not needing to cast vigor)
- health cost abilities (signet buffed ele sus proved spammables that cost nothing are problematic and B4B interacting with CoE is this same issue)
- overly cheap abilities (such as WW that is a combination of the above 2 issues)

Doing this change does the following nerfs:
- 6k armor loss (need tri pots so can't blindly run armor pots anymore without other sacrifices).
- 1 less bar slot (vigor now required since no more healing when defensive).
- 1200 stam regen (since vigor is 3k stam every 5 seconds or 600 stam per second or 1200 stam recovery that ticks every 2 seconds).
- Less damage, defense or utility (from the bar slot now taken by vigor)

Potential other subsequent nerfs:
- Lower max stats (swapping back to bear haunch from sugar skulls with resulting flow on reductions to Font and other max stat passives).
- Recovery enchants (less damage and healing since not all damage jewelry enchants)

This change would also be alongside the current nerfs to ele sus that already hits this builds ability to remain offensive with ele sus proccing surge heals while adding core combat + conservation on the back bar to keep healing going.

Every other class builds around being able to sustain. Sorcerer and DK should be no different end of story

And Sorcs that aren't the DoT Sorc build (or WW) still have to build into sustain, just not as drastically as other pre-refresh classes.

Sphere of influence, Dark Deal, Energy Overload, Sorc passives, tri-pots, etc. all are still needed, especially for builds that aren't the DoT build that is utilizing the interactions I outlined above.

It's why I said, fixing those interactions would fix the issues with CoE because it directly targets the interactions that are causing issues without completely nerfing other builds that do still need to follow the general rule of investing part of their build into sustain.

For context as to the recoveries and why the comparison of CoE to CoF is so absurd:

CoE gives 500/1000 recoveries on average, or 1500 to 1800 mag recovery (halved for stam) when building directly into max mag (at the cost of every other stat)

CoF gives 3k recoveries (2400 post U52 nerf) or double what CoE gives and all based on 20k mag/stam with zero build cost or effort put into building around it at all, even more recoveries are possible with minimal investment into mag or stam.

The reason CoE feels so strong on the DoT sorc build is because of the healing + sustain on core combat and cheap/free to cast abilities like ele sus (getting nerfed already) and Blood for Blood (should not interact with CoE) that get offset by the return via core combat (in the case of ele sus) or the healing from CoE (in the case of B4B).
Having blood magic proc on core combat also allows the build to not run vigor, which is 3k stam per cast or 600 stam per second (assuming proper uptime on the HoT when playing defensive). This is equivalent to 1200 stam recovery (ticks every 2 seconds so 600 x 2) just from this single build change alone and when combined with the no cost ele sus that reliably procs surge healing means even less time required healing up when under pressure and also more free pressure forcing enemies to go defensive earlier which means even less time spent remaining defensive.

Take these away and the mastery is strong when built directly around (i.e. stacking max stats), but not completely overwhelming and definitely still not as free as CoF is (even post nerf CoF).

what is the dot sorc build?

Masters DW + vate Ice staff + Maarselok monster set, proc set of choice on the body, monomyth and filling out pieces with trainee etc.

Can also front bar a proc set and body a defensive set but lose out on mythic/trainee then

VinnyGambini · August 18

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

If sorc kit is so bad, why everone plays sorc? My last 2 BGs:

In 1v1 Dk may be stronger, but in group play I dont think so. When DK is fighting 3v1, he will most probably lose. Sorc will just streak away. In those specific bgs 1 sorc streaked 3 times in a row, then dodge rolled 2 times in a row, then he streaked again 2 times. Absolutely uncatchable.

To the topic, both DK sustain and sorc sutain MUST be reduced in PVP.

Zallion · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

IncultaWolf · August 19

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.

NxJoeyD · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

IMO Sorcs were pretty middle of the pack prior to Masteries. Storm Calling is arguably Sorcs strongest skill line, by some margin. It's not as though people were lining up to subclass Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning or even to make new base Sorc toons before the Masteries. I'd say Stam Stocs were the more effective concentration of Sorc prior to the masteries but Sorcs as a class weren't running up with the higher tier of meta, they were hanging out in the middle.

Sorcs got some power out of the Font mastery but it encourages max resource pool in order to maximize, which, carries it's own opportunity costs.

Adjusting Conservation to no longer work with core combat or health cost based skills would make a balanced difference. It would take an edge off of a strong sustain passive.