Let Templar Double Dip Balanced Warrior

Militan1404 · August 17

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

madmufffin · August 17

So right now my meme block Plar has 75k combined resistances, which would net me 301 wd/sd. Because Templar skills are largely dookey, I only have 3 of them on my front bar. This would increase my combined armor by 4510 giving me another 18 whole wd/sd. Add in 225 more wd/sd from the 3 Plar skills and that puts me at 544 wd/sd after astronomical investment into the defensive aspect they're trying to put forward with this class direction change. Right now that same build is only getting like 200 wd/sd from Balanced Warrior passive. So while it does reward defensive investment, it still feels like the feedback for the opportunity cost of the build is quite low and should realistically be pushed back to the week 2 1%. Would net medium armor builds like 250 more wd/sd and heavy armor builds like 600 wd/sd, which seems like the only path forward to make this whole typing armor to damage concept worthwhile.

ceruulean · August 17

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Yep. Every other class has better defense than templar, this is well known in PvP, with the exception of arcanist since their shield and sustain nerf. But shield support arcanist is still more tanky than templar healer. Templar has the incantation spam build but they die to 4 DPS pressuring them through the ultimate, and that's with MAX resistances.

If ZOS actually wanted to make temple tanky, they would make Purge cleanse half their negative effects, at minimum 5 OR give templar a parry with ramping cost, it'll dodge all ST skills like NB cloak, but without becoming untargetable and still vulnerable to existing DOTs/AOE damage. Having both at the same time would be broken, but templar has little to no 1vX defense skills and needs at least 1 of those. Either make templar vulnerable to pressure, or vulnerable to burst, but right now it's vulnerable to both.

madmufffin · August 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Right now with 7 medium armor pieces, Templar is sitting at like 4200 weapon damage and roughly 26500 resistances with major and minor resolve and the new buff from prism. That means that Templar is getting 212 wd/sd with the new Balanced Warrior calculation from raw resistances. Now if you look at standard Templar bars, you're usually looking at 3 Templar skills sometimes 4 since the class skills are pretty meh and the value of a Fighter's Guild skill is still just outright more valuable after the change. That means you're getting 3180 to 4240 more armor from your slotted Templar skills equating to 13 to 18 more damage and then 225 to 300 raw damage from each templar skill. At 4200 base damage, ONE Fighter's Guild skill is giving you the added benefit of almost TWO Templar skills, so the per skill benefits are largely irrelevant for both PVE and PVP. In total for a 7 medium standard PVE comp Templar, the new Balanced warrior is offering 450 to 530 more weapon damage whereas on live it's giving you 252, which is a buff and amplified by the fact it's now treat as a damage bonus like Courage or PA is so is further amplified by % more modifiers unlike the current live version.

If we go to the far other side of the spectrum, I have a block Templar that has 75k combined resistances, which would net me 301 wd/sd. I only have 3 Templar skills on my front bar because once again the skills are meh. This would increase my combined armor by 4510 giving me another 18 whole wd/sd. Add in 225 more wd/sd from the 3 Templar skills and that puts me at 544 wd/sd after investing entirely into resistances.

So as things stand, with a massive opportunity cost from investing exclusively into resistances, which seem to be the desired reward from this direction change, I net 89 more weapon damage from a comparable number of Templar skills on my bar. This is why I think we should retain the uncapped value but push the value to be 1% of your combined resistances from the week 2 patch. This would add 318 more wd/sd to the full damage 7 medium configuration and 449 more wd/sd to the full tank Templar. Neither of these values are ground breaking and do little more than provide a bit of a kickback for a class that lost the ability to self-source a 10% wd/sd increase.

Medium Armor Templar (53k comb res - 3 skills): Old BW - 252 | Current BW - 450 | Proposed BW - 768
Heavy Armor Templar (75k comb res - 3 skills): Old BW - 141 | Current BW - 544 | Proposed BW - 993

I would even take it a step further and buff Bright Harbinger to be a 450/900 buff to have comparable personal power levels of other class masteries while also continuing to have Templar provide meaningful group damage utility like it historically has with minor sorcery. I know that won't happen and is just personal greed, but the class needs some love with the lack of class buffs/debuffs in PVP and the lack of access to poison/disease damage in PVE.

Gonna drop this here too before it gets lost to the main thread void

madmufffin · August 18

I didn't add the changes to prism to my tank setup and can't figure out how to edit posts anymore, so the tank setup would have 24 more damage for current BW and 60 more damage for proposed BW.

Firstmep · August 18

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Huh? Templar has easy access to both major and minor protection. We don't need damage shields our healing is already some of the best especially with masteries.
Plar sustain is rough ill admit, as for mobility, we have out of class tools for that, and we don't need magical teleport out of danger skill, let other classes keep some of their identity.

If you want to buff Templar mobility make cleansing ritual and it's morphs move with us, or nova and it's morphs.

madmufffin · August 18

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Huh? Templar has easy access to both major and minor protection. We don't need damage shields our healing is already some of the best especially with masteries.
Plar sustain is rough ill admit, as for mobility, we have out of class tools for that, and we don't need magical teleport out of danger skill, let other classes keep some of their identity.

If you want to buff Templar mobility make cleansing ritual and it's morphs move with us, or nova and it's morphs.

Every class has access to useful mobility except for Templar, which is the issue. Maybe change one of the charges to be a mini streak where you charge without a target and that fixes that. Changing runes to like some angels wings that attach to you would be a nice qop enhancement, be thematically appropriate, and would look awesome.

madmufffin · August 18

Oh nice I can edit messages on mobile

CameraBeardThePirate · August 18

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Except that resistance cap in PvP doesn't exist since the cap is taken into account after penetration. 40k armor in PvP is much better than 33k armor due to opponents having penetration.

And yes, while corrosive and onslaught exist, armor still protects you from all the people not using those.

Even onslaught isn't 100% pen. If someone onslaught someone else next to you with 25k armor and you have 40k armor, you're still at 15k armor against the onslaught user.

madmufffin · August 18

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Except that resistance cap in PvP doesn't exist since the cap is taken into account after penetration. 40k armor in PvP is much better than 33k armor due to opponents having penetration.

And yes, while corrosive and onslaught exist, armor still protects you from all the people not using those.

Even onslaught isn't 100% pen. If someone onslaught someone else next to you with 25k armor and you have 40k armor, you're still at 15k armor against the onslaught user.

So your 20% mitigation is going to do what exactly vs a DK or Sorc with your non-existent mobility? That's also ignoring the fact they probably have Balorgh and/or Oakfather adding another monstrous chunk of pen on top of Onslaught.

Is Templar expected to run the worst skill in the game and slot clappy hands so that they can have any means of mobility to get away from the oppressive amounts of burst damage available in the game right now? Yeah Templar has some innate tankiness in its kit, but if you don't fully invest into it, it's nothing in the current meta. In doing so, you also just make yourself a walking well to give other ulti since the kit doesn't have the means to be tanky and do damage like DK, WW, and Sorc can.

Firstmep · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Huh? Templar has easy access to both major and minor protection. We don't need damage shields our healing is already some of the best especially with masteries.
Plar sustain is rough ill admit, as for mobility, we have out of class tools for that, and we don't need magical teleport out of danger skill, let other classes keep some of their identity.

If you want to buff Templar mobility make cleansing ritual and it's morphs move with us, or nova and it's morphs.

Every class has access to useful mobility except for Templar, which is the issue. Maybe change one of the charges to be a mini streak where you charge without a target and that fixes that. Changing runes to like some angels wings that attach to you would be a nice qop enhancement, be thematically appropriate, and would look awesome.

madmufffin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Except that resistance cap in PvP doesn't exist since the cap is taken into account after penetration. 40k armor in PvP is much better than 33k armor due to opponents having penetration.

And yes, while corrosive and onslaught exist, armor still protects you from all the people not using those.

Even onslaught isn't 100% pen. If someone onslaught someone else next to you with 25k armor and you have 40k armor, you're still at 15k armor against the onslaught user.

So your 20% mitigation is going to do what exactly vs a DK or Sorc with your non-existent mobility? That's also ignoring the fact they probably have Balorgh and/or Oakfather adding another monstrous chunk of pen on top of Onslaught.

Is Templar expected to run the worst skill in the game and slot clappy hands so that they can have any means of mobility to get away from the oppressive amounts of burst damage available in the game right now? Yeah Templar has some innate tankiness in its kit, but if you don't fully invest into it, it's nothing in the current meta. In doing so, you also just make yourself a walking well to give other ulti since the kit doesn't have the means to be tanky and do damage like DK, WW, and Sorc can.

Anyone using balorgh and oakfather with onslaught is more than welcome to wail on me pvp. Sounds like a fantastic build.
I know the prevailing sentiment for a lot people in pvp is that penetration is king, but there's almost always an opportunity cost associated with it even with onslaught.

Also even after armor we have easy uptime on major and minor protection, automatic blocking which you can proc with a simple medium weave and more stacking hots than most classes.

madmufffin · August 18

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Huh? Templar has easy access to both major and minor protection. We don't need damage shields our healing is already some of the best especially with masteries.
Plar sustain is rough ill admit, as for mobility, we have out of class tools for that, and we don't need magical teleport out of danger skill, let other classes keep some of their identity.

If you want to buff Templar mobility make cleansing ritual and it's morphs move with us, or nova and it's morphs.

Every class has access to useful mobility except for Templar, which is the issue. Maybe change one of the charges to be a mini streak where you charge without a target and that fixes that. Changing runes to like some angels wings that attach to you would be a nice qop enhancement, be thematically appropriate, and would look awesome.

madmufffin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Except that resistance cap in PvP doesn't exist since the cap is taken into account after penetration. 40k armor in PvP is much better than 33k armor due to opponents having penetration.

And yes, while corrosive and onslaught exist, armor still protects you from all the people not using those.

Even onslaught isn't 100% pen. If someone onslaught someone else next to you with 25k armor and you have 40k armor, you're still at 15k armor against the onslaught user.

So your 20% mitigation is going to do what exactly vs a DK or Sorc with your non-existent mobility? That's also ignoring the fact they probably have Balorgh and/or Oakfather adding another monstrous chunk of pen on top of Onslaught.

Is Templar expected to run the worst skill in the game and slot clappy hands so that they can have any means of mobility to get away from the oppressive amounts of burst damage available in the game right now? Yeah Templar has some innate tankiness in its kit, but if you don't fully invest into it, it's nothing in the current meta. In doing so, you also just make yourself a walking well to give other ulti since the kit doesn't have the means to be tanky and do damage like DK, WW, and Sorc can.

Anyone using balorgh and oakfather with onslaught is more than welcome to wail on me pvp. Sounds like a fantastic build.
I know the prevailing sentiment for a lot people in pvp is that penetration is king, but there's almost always an opportunity cost associated with it even with onslaught.

Also even after armor we have easy uptime on major and minor protection, automatic blocking which you can proc with a simple medium weave and more stacking hots than most classes.

And then Templar's worst in class sustain comes into play trying to use these "stacking hots" while blocking.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

I've had very few issues dealing with Sorc on my templar even in BGs where champion points can't buff sustain and with no sustain set (maybe because I main Sorc so know how to fight it/what the tells are, idk).

The only class I've had issues with on my plar is DK. Sorcs I can drive out of my circles, forcing them to streak away (especially mag/shield sorcs that aren't a threat at all), however DKs just waltz in and kick me out of my own circles, then 1 shot me on the way out. There's also no way to pressure a DK with something like jabs either (even though jabs is designed to be the direct counter for DK, including corrosive DK) which was the old way for plar to fight DK, but due to CoF giving 3k+ recoveries that work even when blocking it makes it impossible to stam check a DK, even if plar could deal enough damage to force them to block.

madmufffin · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I've had very few issues dealing with Sorc on my templar even in BGs where champion points can't buff sustain and with no sustain set (maybe because I main Sorc so know how to fight it/what the tells are, idk).

The only class I've had issues with on my plar is DK. Sorcs I can drive out of my circles, forcing them to streak away (especially mag/shield sorcs that aren't a threat at all), however DKs just waltz in and kick me out of my own circles, then 1 shot me on the way out. There's also no way to pressure a DK with something like jabs either (even though jabs is designed to be the direct counter for DK, including corrosive DK) which was the old way for plar to fight DK, but due to CoF giving 3k+ recoveries that work even when blocking it makes it impossible to stam check a DK, even if plar could deal enough damage to force them to block.

I'm a range plar enthusiast, which is probably the source of a lot of my disgruntlement with the state of the class at the moment. Dark Flare and Aurora Javelin being your class spammable options sucks a lot and means you lose your class source of brutality/sorcery which is tied to a melee spammable for some reason... Put Sorcery/Brutality on Backlash please ZOS

CameraBeardThePirate · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Huh? Templar has easy access to both major and minor protection. We don't need damage shields our healing is already some of the best especially with masteries.
Plar sustain is rough ill admit, as for mobility, we have out of class tools for that, and we don't need magical teleport out of danger skill, let other classes keep some of their identity.

If you want to buff Templar mobility make cleansing ritual and it's morphs move with us, or nova and it's morphs.

Every class has access to useful mobility except for Templar, which is the issue. Maybe change one of the charges to be a mini streak where you charge without a target and that fixes that. Changing runes to like some angels wings that attach to you would be a nice qop enhancement, be thematically appropriate, and would look awesome.

madmufffin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

So templars, in addition to getting nerfed by Cowardice debuff like normal players do, will now also get nerfed by Breach debuffs. Can anyone explain why tying OPPPOSITE stats, defense to offense, is a good idea? How about implement a passive where DKs deal more fire damage the more fire resistance they stack?

Tying offense to defense allows Templar to build defensively without sacrificing as much offense as another class would. This is perfectly in line with the vision ZOS has for Templars as defensive masters.

Its to easy to get to resistance cap allready, and mobility, sustain, dmg shields and dmg reduction by % is all better for defense and templar got non of that except the lack luster sun shield. Templar can have all the resistance in the world and would still be just an onslaught or a combo in corrosive away from dying.

Except that resistance cap in PvP doesn't exist since the cap is taken into account after penetration. 40k armor in PvP is much better than 33k armor due to opponents having penetration.

And yes, while corrosive and onslaught exist, armor still protects you from all the people not using those.

Even onslaught isn't 100% pen. If someone onslaught someone else next to you with 25k armor and you have 40k armor, you're still at 15k armor against the onslaught user.

So your 20% mitigation is going to do what exactly vs a DK or Sorc with your non-existent mobility? That's also ignoring the fact they probably have Balorgh and/or Oakfather adding another monstrous chunk of pen on top of Onslaught.

Is Templar expected to run the worst skill in the game and slot clappy hands so that they can have any means of mobility to get away from the oppressive amounts of burst damage available in the game right now? Yeah Templar has some innate tankiness in its kit, but if you don't fully invest into it, it's nothing in the current meta. In doing so, you also just make yourself a walking well to give other ulti since the kit doesn't have the means to be tanky and do damage like DK, WW, and Sorc can.

Anyone using balorgh and oakfather with onslaught is more than welcome to wail on me pvp. Sounds like a fantastic build.
I know the prevailing sentiment for a lot people in pvp is that penetration is king, but there's almost always an opportunity cost associated with it even with onslaught.

Also even after armor we have easy uptime on major and minor protection, automatic blocking which you can proc with a simple medium weave and more stacking hots than most classes.

And then Templar's worst in class sustain comes into play trying to use these "stacking hots" while blocking.

They have literally 2 free HoTs via class mastery.

twing1_ · August 18

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

SugaComa · August 18

This reads as though someone at ZOS understands the Templar description, but not the experience of actually playing one.

On paper:

Holy warrior. Heavy armour. Sacred ground. Stand firm.

In actual ESO combat:

The boss/players move, players kite, enemies leave your circles, Corrosive and Onslaught ignore your armour, and you have neither the mobility nor pressure needed to dictate the fight.

Then they make damage scale from armour and call it class identity.

Anyone regularly playing Templar would immediately ask:

What happens when I’m Breached?
Why does my offensive passive prefer heavy armour?
Why must I fill my bar with weaker Templar abilities?
Why can Fighters Guild skills still reward me more?
What happens to light-armour Magplars and Templar Werewolves?
Why am I losing Minor Sorcery while DK retains the replacement group buff?
Why is the weakest offensive class receiving conditional compensation instead of an actual improvement?

It feels like Templar is being designed from the phrase “defensive master”, not from observing how it functions in current content.

we have spent months \ years explaining that the game had moved beyond stationary sacred-ground combat. ZOS’s response was essentially: “We understand. Your damage now depends on standing there wearing more armour.”

madmufffin · August 18

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

twing1_ · August 18

SugaComa wrote: »

This reads as though someone at ZOS understands the Templar description, but not the experience of actually playing one.

On paper:

Holy warrior. Heavy armour. Sacred ground. Stand firm.

In actual ESO combat:

The boss/players move, players kite, enemies leave your circles, Corrosive and Onslaught ignore your armour, and you have neither the mobility nor pressure needed to dictate the fight.

Then they make damage scale from armour and call it class identity.

Anyone regularly playing Templar would immediately ask:

What happens when I’m Breached?
Why does my offensive passive prefer heavy armour?
Why must I fill my bar with weaker Templar abilities?
Why can Fighters Guild skills still reward me more?
What happens to light-armour Magplars and Templar Werewolves?
Why am I losing Minor Sorcery while DK retains the replacement group buff?
Why is the weakest offensive class receiving conditional compensation instead of an actual improvement?

It feels like Templar is being designed from the phrase “defensive master”, not from observing how it functions in current content.

we have spent months \ years explaining that the game had moved beyond stationary sacred-ground combat. ZOS’s response was essentially: “We understand. Your damage now depends on standing there wearing more armour.”

Since when did having higher resistances limit your mobility?

Here's an idea for you:

Wear a full medium set of Fortified Brass.

Watch the numbers on your stat sheet go up for free, while maintaining all of the mobility and damage perks of medium armor.

Yes, Templar has an issue with stationary skills. Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Blazing Spear, and Nova all have this issue.

Outside of a complete rework to these skills (which is coming, btw), what is supposed to be done?

If you truly feel like Templar skills are weaker and don't deserve a spot on your bar, you are not playing Templar correctly.

In PvE, you want to slot as many Templar skills as possible to make the most out of Judgment's Brand.

In PvP, most of Templar's toolkit is potent and viable. Binding Javelin is a forced roll dodge or a guaranteed stun. Power of the Light is Templar's only source of a delayed burst ability. Cleansing Ritual is practically required for its purge effect. Rune Focus is going to be used for Major Resolve and slight sustain. Rushed Ceremony/Healing Ritual serve as very potent burst heals with additional effects. Toppling Charge is a gap closer, a stun, and an easy source of Major Protection. Solar Barrage is a free player-centric DoT and 5% damage increase to class abilities. Unstable Core completely removes an enemy player from a fight by putting them on a time out.

How are you having issues finding useful Templar skills to slot? If you don't like the Templar toolkit, maybe it just isn't the class for you. And that's okay.

twing1_ · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

Class Masteries have largely removed the need to "stand still and hold block". Sacred Ground now travels with the player on a 20s timer. Didn't you hear? It also gives you a strong HoT, for free. Really, the only defensive abilities you are missing out on by not standing still are the healing portion of Rune Focus and the healing portion of Extended Ritual, the cleanse plays well with mobility.

Sustain is one of the weakest points of a Templar's kit.

That is why, to address it, I always dedicate a sustain set to my Templar.

This makes it a non-issue.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I actually find ways to address my class's weakness instead of waiting for it to be buffed.

RAT synergizes extremely well with the Templar kit, IMO. Templar already has an inherent 12% increase to crit damage, the minor force of RAT bumps that up to 22%. Even against a player stacking 7 impenetrable traits and the Resilience champion star, this means 28% of my crit damage will still be getting through their crit resistance. And this is in heavy armor, which IMO just synergizes so much better with the Templar toolkit. Medium armor would bump this value up to 42%. RAT also gives Templar an easy and on-demand source of Major Expedition and snare removal, which currently cannot be sourced from within its class skills. Why wouldn't I use this skill? What about it gives it a "low return on investment"?

Again, I feel like no matter what I do to show how a Templar's strengths can be played into and their weaknesses accounted for, it will be completely disregarded on this post because Templar =/= DK, Templar =/= Sorc.

madmufffin · August 18

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

Sustain is one of the weakest points of a Templar's kit.

That is why, to address it, I always dedicate a sustain set to my Templar.

This makes it a non-issue.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I actually find ways to address my class's weakness instead of waiting for it to be buffed.

RAT synergizes extremely well with the Templar kit, IMO. Templar already has an inherent 12% increase to crit damage, the minor force of RAT bumps that up to 22%. Even against a player stacking 7 impenetrable traits and the Resilience champion star, this means 28% of my crit damage will still be getting through their crit resistance. And this is in heavy armor, which IMO just synergizes so much better with the Templar toolkit. Medium armor would bump this value up to 42%. RAT also gives Templar an easy and on-demand source of Major Expedition and snare removal, which currently cannot be sourced from within its class skills. Why wouldn't I use this skill? What about it gives it a "low return on investment"?

Again, I feel like no matter what I do to show how a Templar's strengths can be played into and their weaknesses accounted for, it will be completely disregarded on this post because Templar =/= DK, Templar =/= Sorc.

If you're in heavy armor to play into this new concept, you have like 2500 weapon damage, which makes the value of your crits near worthless anyway. How is that a selling point? Your max crit is hitting for a normal non-crit spammable for a medium armor build. The issue as most people have highlighted with this rework is that Templar lacks the means to play both sides of the coin like DK, Sorc, and even Warden can. To be defensively comparable you have to invest heavily into being able to stand in your circles and survive which comes at a steep expense for your damage output. To do meaningful damage, you expend a lot of your ability to leverage your defensive kit. This change to the armor nonsense doesn't change that inherent weakness in the class, and tries to make some weird incentive to stack a very meager return with resistances. If the value was uncapped 1% or resistances, then yeah maybe you can start to act like it can help push plar into a good space for building both aspects, but at .4% it does next to nothing for enabling a dual capability PVP class.

madmufffin · August 18

twing1_ wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

This reads as though someone at ZOS understands the Templar description, but not the experience of actually playing one.

On paper:

Holy warrior. Heavy armour. Sacred ground. Stand firm.

In actual ESO combat:

The boss/players move, players kite, enemies leave your circles, Corrosive and Onslaught ignore your armour, and you have neither the mobility nor pressure needed to dictate the fight.

Then they make damage scale from armour and call it class identity.

Anyone regularly playing Templar would immediately ask:

What happens when I’m Breached?
Why does my offensive passive prefer heavy armour?
Why must I fill my bar with weaker Templar abilities?
Why can Fighters Guild skills still reward me more?
What happens to light-armour Magplars and Templar Werewolves?
Why am I losing Minor Sorcery while DK retains the replacement group buff?
Why is the weakest offensive class receiving conditional compensation instead of an actual improvement?

It feels like Templar is being designed from the phrase “defensive master”, not from observing how it functions in current content.

we have spent months \ years explaining that the game had moved beyond stationary sacred-ground combat. ZOS’s response was essentially: “We understand. Your damage now depends on standing there wearing more armour.”

Since when did having higher resistances limit your mobility?

Here's an idea for you:

Wear a full medium set of Fortified Brass.

Watch the numbers on your stat sheet go up for free, while maintaining all of the mobility and damage perks of medium armor.

Yes, Templar has an issue with stationary skills. Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Blazing Spear, and Nova all have this issue.

Outside of a complete rework to these skills (which is coming, btw), what is supposed to be done?

If you truly feel like Templar skills are weaker and don't deserve a spot on your bar, you are not playing Templar correctly.

In PvE, you want to slot as many Templar skills as possible to make the most out of Judgment's Brand.

In PvP, most of Templar's toolkit is potent and viable. Binding Javelin is a forced roll dodge or a guaranteed stun. Power of the Light is Templar's only source of a delayed burst ability. Cleansing Ritual is practically required for its purge effect. Rune Focus is going to be used for Major Resolve and slight sustain. Rushed Ceremony/Healing Ritual serve as very potent burst heals with additional effects. Toppling Charge is a gap closer, a stun, and an easy source of Major Protection. Solar Barrage is a free player-centric DoT and 5% damage increase to class abilities. Unstable Core completely removes an enemy player from a fight by putting them on a time out.

How are you having issues finding useful Templar skills to slot? If you don't like the Templar toolkit, maybe it just isn't the class for you. And that's okay.

Putting forth Fortified Brass and Wretched Vitality as a build in 2026 is diabolical btw

twing1_ · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

Sustain is one of the weakest points of a Templar's kit.

That is why, to address it, I always dedicate a sustain set to my Templar.

This makes it a non-issue.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I actually find ways to address my class's weakness instead of waiting for it to be buffed.

RAT synergizes extremely well with the Templar kit, IMO. Templar already has an inherent 12% increase to crit damage, the minor force of RAT bumps that up to 22%. Even against a player stacking 7 impenetrable traits and the Resilience champion star, this means 28% of my crit damage will still be getting through their crit resistance. And this is in heavy armor, which IMO just synergizes so much better with the Templar toolkit. Medium armor would bump this value up to 42%. RAT also gives Templar an easy and on-demand source of Major Expedition and snare removal, which currently cannot be sourced from within its class skills. Why wouldn't I use this skill? What about it gives it a "low return on investment"?

Again, I feel like no matter what I do to show how a Templar's strengths can be played into and their weaknesses accounted for, it will be completely disregarded on this post because Templar =/= DK, Templar =/= Sorc.

If you're in heavy armor to play into this new concept, you have like 2500 weapon damage, which makes the value of your crits near worthless anyway. How is that a selling point? Your max crit is hitting for a normal non-crit spammable for a medium armor build. The issue as most people have highlighted with this rework is that Templar lacks the means to play both sides of the coin like DK, Sorc, and even Warden can. To be defensively comparable you have to invest heavily into being able to stand in your circles and survive which comes at a steep expense for your damage output. To do meaningful damage, you expend a lot of your ability to leverage your defensive kit. This change to the armor nonsense doesn't change that inherent weakness in the class, and tries to make some weird incentive to stack a very meager return with resistances. If the value was uncapped 1% or resistances, then yeah maybe you can start to act like it can help push plar into a good space for building both aspects, but at .4% it does next to nothing for enabling a dual capability PVP class.

I am not in Heavy Armor to "play into this new concept", I've been in heavy armor for as long as I can remember because heavy armor already synergizes better with the Templar toolkit. Here are the stats of my build:

This is with minor sorcery already removed, btw. The new bonus of 2974 resistances isn't featured either.

How does 6200 weapon damage = 2500 weapon damage? My build is very well rounded, and even against most DKs I often win as long as I don't mess up.

Again, the standing in circles problem has already been largely removed from the Templar kit via the Class Mastery skills.

If the value of the new balanced warrior was 1% uncapped resistances, that would only further pigeonhole Templars into wearing heavy armor or stacking resistances, which you, yourself, has already mentioned is a bad thing.

Dividing the damage scaling of balanced warrior between resistances and slotted Templar skills was a direct response to people on the forums complaining about how the 100% resistance focused balanced warrior was pigeonholing Templars into stacking resistance. Does that sound familiar to you?

twing1_ · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

This reads as though someone at ZOS understands the Templar description, but not the experience of actually playing one.

On paper:

Holy warrior. Heavy armour. Sacred ground. Stand firm.

In actual ESO combat:

The boss/players move, players kite, enemies leave your circles, Corrosive and Onslaught ignore your armour, and you have neither the mobility nor pressure needed to dictate the fight.

Then they make damage scale from armour and call it class identity.

Anyone regularly playing Templar would immediately ask:

What happens when I’m Breached?
Why does my offensive passive prefer heavy armour?
Why must I fill my bar with weaker Templar abilities?
Why can Fighters Guild skills still reward me more?
What happens to light-armour Magplars and Templar Werewolves?
Why am I losing Minor Sorcery while DK retains the replacement group buff?
Why is the weakest offensive class receiving conditional compensation instead of an actual improvement?

It feels like Templar is being designed from the phrase “defensive master”, not from observing how it functions in current content.

we have spent months \ years explaining that the game had moved beyond stationary sacred-ground combat. ZOS’s response was essentially: “We understand. Your damage now depends on standing there wearing more armour.”

Since when did having higher resistances limit your mobility?

Here's an idea for you:

Wear a full medium set of Fortified Brass.

Watch the numbers on your stat sheet go up for free, while maintaining all of the mobility and damage perks of medium armor.

Yes, Templar has an issue with stationary skills. Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Blazing Spear, and Nova all have this issue.

Outside of a complete rework to these skills (which is coming, btw), what is supposed to be done?

If you truly feel like Templar skills are weaker and don't deserve a spot on your bar, you are not playing Templar correctly.

In PvE, you want to slot as many Templar skills as possible to make the most out of Judgment's Brand.

In PvP, most of Templar's toolkit is potent and viable. Binding Javelin is a forced roll dodge or a guaranteed stun. Power of the Light is Templar's only source of a delayed burst ability. Cleansing Ritual is practically required for its purge effect. Rune Focus is going to be used for Major Resolve and slight sustain. Rushed Ceremony/Healing Ritual serve as very potent burst heals with additional effects. Toppling Charge is a gap closer, a stun, and an easy source of Major Protection. Solar Barrage is a free player-centric DoT and 5% damage increase to class abilities. Unstable Core completely removes an enemy player from a fight by putting them on a time out.

How are you having issues finding useful Templar skills to slot? If you don't like the Templar toolkit, maybe it just isn't the class for you. And that's okay.

Putting forth Fortified Brass and Wretched Vitality as a build in 2026 is diabolical btw

Absolutely. But running 2 damage sets on a medium armor templar is just as laughable. (What most of the people in these comments are trying to do, btw).

madmufffin · August 18

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

Sustain is one of the weakest points of a Templar's kit.

That is why, to address it, I always dedicate a sustain set to my Templar.

This makes it a non-issue.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I actually find ways to address my class's weakness instead of waiting for it to be buffed.

RAT synergizes extremely well with the Templar kit, IMO. Templar already has an inherent 12% increase to crit damage, the minor force of RAT bumps that up to 22%. Even against a player stacking 7 impenetrable traits and the Resilience champion star, this means 28% of my crit damage will still be getting through their crit resistance. And this is in heavy armor, which IMO just synergizes so much better with the Templar toolkit. Medium armor would bump this value up to 42%. RAT also gives Templar an easy and on-demand source of Major Expedition and snare removal, which currently cannot be sourced from within its class skills. Why wouldn't I use this skill? What about it gives it a "low return on investment"?

Again, I feel like no matter what I do to show how a Templar's strengths can be played into and their weaknesses accounted for, it will be completely disregarded on this post because Templar =/= DK, Templar =/= Sorc.

If you're in heavy armor to play into this new concept, you have like 2500 weapon damage, which makes the value of your crits near worthless anyway. How is that a selling point? Your max crit is hitting for a normal non-crit spammable for a medium armor build. The issue as most people have highlighted with this rework is that Templar lacks the means to play both sides of the coin like DK, Sorc, and even Warden can. To be defensively comparable you have to invest heavily into being able to stand in your circles and survive which comes at a steep expense for your damage output. To do meaningful damage, you expend a lot of your ability to leverage your defensive kit. This change to the armor nonsense doesn't change that inherent weakness in the class, and tries to make some weird incentive to stack a very meager return with resistances. If the value was uncapped 1% or resistances, then yeah maybe you can start to act like it can help push plar into a good space for building both aspects, but at .4% it does next to nothing for enabling a dual capability PVP class.

I am not in Heavy Armor to "play into this new concept", I've been in heavy armor for as long as I can remember because heavy armor already synergizes better with the Templar toolkit. Here are the stats of my build:

This is with minor sorcery already removed, btw. The new 2974 resistances isn't featured either.

How does 6200 weapon damage = 2500 weapon damage? My build is very well rounded, and even against most DKs I often win as long as I don't mess up.

Again, the standing in circles problem has already been largely removed from the Templar kit via the Class Mastery skills.

If the value of the new balanced warrior was 1% uncapped resistances, that would only further pigeonhole Templars into wearing heavy armor or stacking resistances, which you, yourself, has already mentioned is a bad thing.

Dividing the damage scaling of balanced warrior between resistances and slotted Templar skills was a direct response to people on the forums complaining about how the 100% resistance focused balanced warrior was pigeonholing Templars into stacking resistance. Does that sound familiar to you?

So the same stats as a medium armor DK, Warden, or Sorc with the inherently better class kits to boot. Nice. 75 damage per skill at your weapon damage would be almost tripled by a single fighter's guild skill being on your bar. If you want to truly hybridize the incentive, then you at least go to something like a flat 2%. The change needs to be stronger for % of resistances, # of Templar skills, or both.

twing1_ · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

The way some of you are commenting makes it sound like you don't even play the Templar class.

Templar is currently one of the most defensively overloaded classes in the game. Between their easy access to HoTs and strong burst heals, in addition to an on-demand purge, Templars can already be incredibly tanky. Mobility is easily sourced through the "Race Against Time" skill that is available to all builds, and is further boosted by the Minor Expedition available on Templar's "Hasty Prayer".

The comments here claiming that Templar has weaker defenses than all the other classes should be totally ignored.

Defense has always been one of Templar's strong suits, while Sustain and Offense are among the weakest parts of their kit.

The change to Balanced Warrior lets a Templar build into their strength (Defense) while at the same time receiving a substantial boon to their offense. Any good Templar would then address their sustain issue through an item set to round out their build.

If you don't have an interest in building into the strength of a particular class and supporting its weaknesses through outside means, the problem isn't necessarily with the class itself but with the player behind it.

I'm not saying Templar class doesn't have its issues, because it definitely does, but I feel like outside of a total rework of the class (which is supposedly coming later on), players need to adapt to what is currently available to them.

From reading these comments, it is painfully obvious to me that a lot of people are not doing that and are instead asking for buffs so that they can play their Templar while ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of their kit and still receive a free 10,000 spell/weapon damage, 2,000 to main and off resource sustain, an unnamed -50% damage taken bonus to combat players stacking penetration, and a single click "automatic win" button that prevents them from losing any fight and enduring any sort of challenging or engaging gameplay.

The new Balanced Warrior, for the vast majority of builds out there, provides a substantial boost to a Templar's stat density. It is a welcome change to me, and I honestly feel like the people complaining about how it "hasn't gone far enough" will not be appeased by anything short of the coming Templar rework.

The entirety of Templar's defensive kit is to stand still in your circles and hold block. Meanwhile other classes have near comparable defensive efficiency while having the luxury of not being stuck in place like a rock. Hasty Prayer costs 5000 mag for 10s of minor expedition and a mediocre heal. Putting that forward as a solution to the mobility issue is about as laughable as humanly possible without even considering the horrific sustain issue the class suffers from and how that amplifies it. RAT and Channeled are both in the same boat with pretty low return on investment for a tank oriented build when every other class has a better in class alternative.

Sustain is one of the weakest points of a Templar's kit.

That is why, to address it, I always dedicate a sustain set to my Templar.

This makes it a non-issue.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here. I actually find ways to address my class's weakness instead of waiting for it to be buffed.

RAT synergizes extremely well with the Templar kit, IMO. Templar already has an inherent 12% increase to crit damage, the minor force of RAT bumps that up to 22%. Even against a player stacking 7 impenetrable traits and the Resilience champion star, this means 28% of my crit damage will still be getting through their crit resistance. And this is in heavy armor, which IMO just synergizes so much better with the Templar toolkit. Medium armor would bump this value up to 42%. RAT also gives Templar an easy and on-demand source of Major Expedition and snare removal, which currently cannot be sourced from within its class skills. Why wouldn't I use this skill? What about it gives it a "low return on investment"?

Again, I feel like no matter what I do to show how a Templar's strengths can be played into and their weaknesses accounted for, it will be completely disregarded on this post because Templar =/= DK, Templar =/= Sorc.

If you're in heavy armor to play into this new concept, you have like 2500 weapon damage, which makes the value of your crits near worthless anyway. How is that a selling point? Your max crit is hitting for a normal non-crit spammable for a medium armor build. The issue as most people have highlighted with this rework is that Templar lacks the means to play both sides of the coin like DK, Sorc, and even Warden can. To be defensively comparable you have to invest heavily into being able to stand in your circles and survive which comes at a steep expense for your damage output. To do meaningful damage, you expend a lot of your ability to leverage your defensive kit. This change to the armor nonsense doesn't change that inherent weakness in the class, and tries to make some weird incentive to stack a very meager return with resistances. If the value was uncapped 1% or resistances, then yeah maybe you can start to act like it can help push plar into a good space for building both aspects, but at .4% it does next to nothing for enabling a dual capability PVP class.

I am not in Heavy Armor to "play into this new concept", I've been in heavy armor for as long as I can remember because heavy armor already synergizes better with the Templar toolkit. Here are the stats of my build:

This is with minor sorcery already removed, btw. The new 2974 resistances isn't featured either.

How does 6200 weapon damage = 2500 weapon damage? My build is very well rounded, and even against most DKs I often win as long as I don't mess up.

Again, the standing in circles problem has already been largely removed from the Templar kit via the Class Mastery skills.

If the value of the new balanced warrior was 1% uncapped resistances, that would only further pigeonhole Templars into wearing heavy armor or stacking resistances, which you, yourself, has already mentioned is a bad thing.

Dividing the damage scaling of balanced warrior between resistances and slotted Templar skills was a direct response to people on the forums complaining about how the 100% resistance focused balanced warrior was pigeonholing Templars into stacking resistance. Does that sound familiar to you?

So the same stats as a medium armor DK, Warden, or Sorc with the inherently better class kits to boot. Nice. 75 damage per skill at your weapon damage would be almost tripled by a single fighter's guild skill being on your bar. If you want to truly hybridize the incentive, then you at least go to something like a flat 2%. The change needs to be stronger for % of resistances, # of Templar skills, or both.

I'm convinced you lack the basic understanding behind the spell/weapon damage calculations of this game.

The Fighters Guild 3% damage bonus comes nowhere near 3x the value of the 75 flat damage bonus being given to Templar skills.

The 75 spell/weapon damage each Templar skill adds comes in as base damage, which is subject to % modifiers.

The fighter's guild 3% bonus weapon damage comes in as a modifier, and cannot be further increased by other modifiers.

A Templar skill would add ~95 damage to my build, a Fighters Guild Skill would add ~145 damage to my build.

So yeah, I could get more damage on the stat sheet from a fighters guild ability, but which Fighter Guild skill is better than any Templar skill?

I'm not slotting these skills on my bar specifically for these bonuses, I'm slotting them on my bar for the function and usefulness of the skill. I actually find Templar skills useful. I do not find most Fighters Guild skills useful.

The extra 95 damage I'm receiving for slotting a Templar skill that would already be on my bar is nothing but a free bonus to me.

You are asking for class buffs without the fundamental game knowledge required to make educated suggestions.

madmufffin · August 18

So you get double the value and can run a better source of crit since vamp bane is clunky, get detection, and source minor berserk if you're not in Monomyth. You can also run a better front bar damage ult since DB is going to outperform sweep in most cases. You will also get 4 templar skills worth of damage plus additional means of ulti gen if you don't have one/both the masteries for genning ult.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

So you get double the value and can run a better source of crit since vamp bane is clunky, get detection, and source minor berserk if you're not in Monomyth. You can also run a better front bar damage ult since DB is going to outperform sweep in most cases. You will also get 4 templar skills worth of damage plus additional means of ulti gen if you don't have one/both the masteries for genning ult.

DB definitely does not outperform Sweep in most cases lol. Sweep is incredibly strong, and with the crazy ult gen you get from your masteries, you have nearly a 100% uptime on the Sweep DoT.

DB of Smiting base tooltip is 3600 + 4613.

Crescent Sweep base tooltip is (2399 + 3483)*1.6 scaling (which you almost always get) = 3838 + 5572, and is half the cost of DB.

At 20k resources and 7000 weapon damage, DB of Smiting is 14960+17965.

At the same stats Crescent (with the 60% scaling) is 15953+23155. And again, it's half the cost.

madmufffin · August 18

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

So you get double the value and can run a better source of crit since vamp bane is clunky, get detection, and source minor berserk if you're not in Monomyth. You can also run a better front bar damage ult since DB is going to outperform sweep in most cases. You will also get 4 templar skills worth of damage plus additional means of ulti gen if you don't have one/both the masteries for genning ult.

DB definitely does not outperform Sweep in most cases lol. Sweep is incredibly strong, and with the crazy ult gen you get from your masteries, you have nearly a 100% uptime on the Sweep DoT.

DB of Smiting base tooltip is 3600 + 4613.

Crescent Sweep base tooltip is (2399 + 3483)*1.6 scaling (which you almost always get) = 3838 + 5572, and is half the cost of DB.

The everlasting buff is for the hit and the dot? With the wording I always just assumed it was for the initial hit

twing1_ · August 18

madmufffin wrote: »

So you get double the value and can run a better source of crit since vamp bane is clunky, get detection, and source minor berserk if you're not in Monomyth. You can also run a better front bar damage ult since DB is going to outperform sweep in most cases. You will also get 4 templar skills worth of damage plus additional means of ulti gen if you don't have one/both the masteries for genning ult.

What are you talking about?

Why would I need a source of Minor Berserk? That comes for free on Templars, along with Minor Protection. I don't even run Vampire's Bane and feel no need for Savagery because I am in heavy armor.