CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

Werewolves are actually quite vulnerable to burst builds, which is why most Werewolf builds stack extra Max Health. The Sorcerer passives give Werewolves excellent sustain and healing. When you see a Werewolf swimming alone through a group of enemies, there’s a very good chance their base class is Sorcerer.

Also, while I barely play Cyrodiil myself, I have friends who do, and they’ve told me that Sorcerers are far from uncommon in Cyrodiil on PC/NA. If a class were truly that difficult to play effectively, you wouldn’t see so many people choosing it.

At least according to Battlegrounds statistics addons, Sorcerers make up around 27% of the player population, putting them in first place, while Dragonknights are around 22%, in second. Sorcerers also have the highest total damage in the damage statistics.

As for your point about controllers: if you’ve watched Eman’s YouTube videos, you’ll know that you can absolutely play Sorcerer’s mobility/teleport skills effectively with a controller. There are plenty of creators on YouTube who play Sorcerer very well on controller. So in my opinion, that’s more of a skill issue than a class issue.

And if you think Sorcerer isn’t particularly strong, you could always challenge yourself by playing a pure Arcanist, which is one of the least-played classes in PvP, or a pure Necromancer, or even a pure Warden.

Incidentally, my pure Warden has absolutely terrible resource sustain. But once I mix in the Sorcerer skill line, the build feels *much* better to play.

Let’s stop using “I see this around me, therefore it must be true” as our entire argument and actually look at the statistics.

Luneca wrote: »

NB is the only class I can turn the masteries on/off and not notice a single difference in actual PvP combat performance. They make absolutely no difference in reality. And even if they did and someone found what difference they make, it's nowhere near the difference subclassing could, would, and actually does.

Preach

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

Werewolves are actually quite vulnerable to burst builds, which is why most Werewolf builds stack extra Max Health. The Sorcerer passives give Werewolves excellent sustain and healing. When you see a Werewolf swimming alone through a group of enemies, there’s a very good chance their base class is Sorcerer.

Also, while I barely play Cyrodiil myself, I have friends who do, and they’ve told me that Sorcerers are far from uncommon in Cyrodiil on PC/NA. If a class were truly that difficult to play effectively, you wouldn’t see so many people choosing it.

At least according to Battlegrounds statistics addons, Sorcerers make up around 27% of the player population, putting them in first place, while Dragonknights are around 22%, in second. Sorcerers also have the highest total damage in the damage statistics.

As for your point about controllers: if you’ve watched Eman’s YouTube videos, you’ll know that you can absolutely play Sorcerer’s mobility/teleport skills effectively with a controller. There are plenty of creators on YouTube who play Sorcerer very well on controller. So in my opinion, that’s more of a skill issue than a class issue.

And if you think Sorcerer isn’t particularly strong, you could always challenge yourself by playing a pure Arcanist, which is one of the least-played classes in PvP, or a pure Necromancer, or even a pure Warden.

Incidentally, my pure Warden has absolutely terrible resource sustain. But once I mix in the Sorcerer skill line, the build feels *much* better to play.

Let’s stop using “I see this around me, therefore it must be true” as our entire argument and actually look at the statistics.

Where are those statistics coming from? If they are from BGs you cannot just assume that the same percentage is on Cyrodiil. Besides, things might be completely different on PS NA.

Popularity statistics while aren't meaningless but their also aren't a direct measure of a class' strength.

Sorc has pretty much always been one of the most popular classes in the game. It's fast, high paced and pretty much the main mage archetype a lot of people enjoy.

You can see nb at 15% here, despite it being probably one of the weakest classes atm in pvp, people still enjoy their assassin fantasy.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

Werewolves are actually quite vulnerable to burst builds, which is why most Werewolf builds stack extra Max Health. The Sorcerer passives give Werewolves excellent sustain and healing. When you see a Werewolf swimming alone through a group of enemies, there’s a very good chance their base class is Sorcerer.

Also, while I barely play Cyrodiil myself, I have friends who do, and they’ve told me that Sorcerers are far from uncommon in Cyrodiil on PC/NA. If a class were truly that difficult to play effectively, you wouldn’t see so many people choosing it.

At least according to Battlegrounds statistics addons, Sorcerers make up around 27% of the player population, putting them in first place, while Dragonknights are around 22%, in second. Sorcerers also have the highest total damage in the damage statistics.

As for your point about controllers: if you’ve watched Eman’s YouTube videos, you’ll know that you can absolutely play Sorcerer’s mobility/teleport skills effectively with a controller. There are plenty of creators on YouTube who play Sorcerer very well on controller. So in my opinion, that’s more of a skill issue than a class issue.

And if you think Sorcerer isn’t particularly strong, you could always challenge yourself by playing a pure Arcanist, which is one of the least-played classes in PvP, or a pure Necromancer, or even a pure Warden.

Incidentally, my pure Warden has absolutely terrible resource sustain. But once I mix in the Sorcerer skill line, the build feels *much* better to play.

Let’s stop using “I see this around me, therefore it must be true” as our entire argument and actually look at the statistics.

Where are those statistics coming from? If they are from BGs you cannot just assume that the same percentage is on Cyrodiil. Besides, things might be completely different on PS NA.

If you think popularity alone can’t fully reflect a class’s strength, then surely total damage dealt can reflect it to some extent, right?

In Battlegrounds, you have to survive first before you can deal damage. And Sorcerer can use three consecutive Streaks to ensure that they survive. (And please don’t come back with some ridiculous comparison like a terrible Sorcerer player versus a top-tier Dragonknight player—If you use an example like that, I’ll definitely laugh at you.) On top of that, Sorcerer has its meta-defining passives and Class Mastery.

According to the current Battlegrounds addon statistics, Sorcerer has the highest total damage.


I once had a Battleground where the enemy team had five Sorcerers. I was terrified for our team—that’s five Sorcerers, come on, five highly mobile ranged turrets running around the battlefield?

Think about it this way: if you could trade Sorcerer’s Class Mastery for the Class Mastery of any other class, would you take that trade?

Or better yet, teach me this: how exactly am I supposed to force a Sorcerer who can Streak three times in a row to fight me?

As long as that Sorcerer doesn’t want to fight, there’s basically nothing you can do about it. But you can force a Dragonknight to fight you, regardless of whether you can actually beat them or not, because Dragonknight is a “short-legged” class.

The only real answer to a Streak Sorcerer is to burst them down before they can Streak away. Other classes can eventually be worn down, but Sorcerer can simply remove itself from a bad situation.

And on top of all that, Sorcerer has a skill that grants Minor Expedition. Major Expedition is common enough, but Minor Expedition? Aside from being available through Scribing, can you name another class skill that provides Minor Expedition? And that skill has a pretty long duration, too.

Sure looks like Sorcerer has received some special treatment from ZOS.

I’ll say it again: if you believe Sorcerer shouldn’t be nerfed, then go play some of those “less popular classes” and compare them yourself, since you seem to like judging everything based on your own personal experience.

And if you play those classes and find the experience even better than playing your Sorcerer, congratulations—you might actually have what it takes to become a top-tier PvP player.

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

Werewolves are actually quite vulnerable to burst builds, which is why most Werewolf builds stack extra Max Health. The Sorcerer passives give Werewolves excellent sustain and healing. When you see a Werewolf swimming alone through a group of enemies, there’s a very good chance their base class is Sorcerer.

Also, while I barely play Cyrodiil myself, I have friends who do, and they’ve told me that Sorcerers are far from uncommon in Cyrodiil on PC/NA. If a class were truly that difficult to play effectively, you wouldn’t see so many people choosing it.

At least according to Battlegrounds statistics addons, Sorcerers make up around 27% of the player population, putting them in first place, while Dragonknights are around 22%, in second. Sorcerers also have the highest total damage in the damage statistics.

As for your point about controllers: if you’ve watched Eman’s YouTube videos, you’ll know that you can absolutely play Sorcerer’s mobility/teleport skills effectively with a controller. There are plenty of creators on YouTube who play Sorcerer very well on controller. So in my opinion, that’s more of a skill issue than a class issue.

And if you think Sorcerer isn’t particularly strong, you could always challenge yourself by playing a pure Arcanist, which is one of the least-played classes in PvP, or a pure Necromancer, or even a pure Warden.

Incidentally, my pure Warden has absolutely terrible resource sustain. But once I mix in the Sorcerer skill line, the build feels *much* better to play.

Let’s stop using “I see this around me, therefore it must be true” as our entire argument and actually look at the statistics.

Where are those statistics coming from? If they are from BGs you cannot just assume that the same percentage is on Cyrodiil. Besides, things might be completely different on PS NA.

So I made it very clear from the very beginning: “At least in PvP Battlegrounds.” That is the premise of my entire argument. I don’t understand why you ignored that and then responded with something that was completely beside the point.

If you think my data isn’t objective enough, then present your own data. Why don’t you start making an addon to collect the data yourself? The person making the claim bears the burden of proof. I’ve already provided evidence to support my position. Now it’s your turn. Don’t just rely on emotional, anecdotal impressions.

Secondly, there are plenty of Sorcerers zooming around in Cyrodiil too. There are tons of Sorcerer PvP creators on YouTube playing in Cyrodiil. Every time someone brings up nerfing Sorcerer, a bunch of people immediately jump out to oppose it. Doesn’t that, in itself, suggest that there are a lot of people playing Sorcerer? Because a nerf would directly affect your interests.

I support reasonable nerfs to any overpowered class, even if it’s the class I’m currently playing. Why don’t you try playing PvP on some different classes before arguing with me about whether Sorcerer deserves a nerf?

I’ve played PvP on at least three different classes. And, coincidentally, I never managed to play any of them during their strongest meta periods. But I suppose if I had just kept playing Sorcerer, I could have stayed in the meta the entire time. lol.

What about you?

Or how about this: delete every class except Sorcerer. Then everyone can play Sorcerer, and there’s no need to argue about nerfs or buffs anymore. We wouldn’t even need class balance changes. Problem solved, right? Are you really good or just because of the meta build, we'll know.
When the tide goes out, you’ll see who’s been swimming naked.

I’m not talking about BGs. PS NA Cyrodiil has very few Sorcerers unless you count the multitude of werewolves that are dominating right now. You can’t say there are plenty of sorcerers around me if you are on another server.

I can’t make addons because I am on console.

People just don’t like streak so they ask for sorc nerfs, just like they don’t want to slot a skill like flare to reveal nightblades and have one less damage skill on their bars. So nightblades got nerfed hard. I don’t see many of those in Cyrodiil either. This is what it is all about. At least you can’t get killed by streak. It’s irritating so you call for nerfs.

I can’t kill DKs and I can’t kill werewolves so how can I be overpowered?

For the record I played a Stam DK back when they were garbage, a stamina templar around the jabs and backlash nerf time, and this sorc, which was useless until only recently.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Sorcerer’s class specialization is so much better than Dragonknight’s. Honestly, I’d say Sorcerer has the best class specialization out of any class. At least in PvP Battlegrounds, when it comes to how difficult they are to deal with, I’d rank them: Sorcerer > Werewolf (especially Sorc Werewolf) > Dragonknight.

Disclaimer: My main classes are Templar and Warden, and I’ve never played a pure Dragonknight, so this is just based on my experience fighting against them.

I think the main thing that makes Dragonknight strong is that resource-return skill of theirs (Soul of Flame? I’m not sure if that’s the name). But Sorcerer can still take half my health in a single burst even when I’m fully buffed and blocking. On top of that, they have that absolutely insane mobility with Streak. Seriously, is there even a Sorcerer who doesn’t use Streak?

Based on the combat statistics from the Battlegrounds combat addon I’m currently using, Sorcerer is actually dealing more damage than Dragonknight. Sorcerer can hit extremely hard at both range and melee, has incredible mobility, has great sustain, and their class specialization even gives them additional shields.

So I honestly don’t understand why most of the nerfs being discussed on the forums seem to be aimed at Dragonknight rather than Sorcerer. From my experience, the most threatening Werewolves are usually Sorcerer Werewolves as well. Sorcerer’s passives synergize way too well with Werewolf.

I don’t use Streak, it is hard to control precisely with a controller (I’m on PS) and I get the angle to hit the other player off a bit sometimes and miss the player. It’s probably much easier with mouse and keyboard. There are sorcerers like me who aren’t werewolves, so the whole class shouldn’t be punished. I am mostly a negate with support skills.

Sorcs must be much more prevalent in BGs because I don’t see many in Cyrodiil unless all of them are werewolves now. Is that why there are so many calls for sorc nerfs? You know they just stay on werewolf form indefinitely so any sorc nerfs won’t really hurt them because they can’t use any sorc skills in that form, it only hurts the rest of us.

Werewolves are actually quite vulnerable to burst builds, which is why most Werewolf builds stack extra Max Health. The Sorcerer passives give Werewolves excellent sustain and healing. When you see a Werewolf swimming alone through a group of enemies, there’s a very good chance their base class is Sorcerer.

Also, while I barely play Cyrodiil myself, I have friends who do, and they’ve told me that Sorcerers are far from uncommon in Cyrodiil on PC/NA. If a class were truly that difficult to play effectively, you wouldn’t see so many people choosing it.

At least according to Battlegrounds statistics addons, Sorcerers make up around 27% of the player population, putting them in first place, while Dragonknights are around 22%, in second. Sorcerers also have the highest total damage in the damage statistics.

As for your point about controllers: if you’ve watched Eman’s YouTube videos, you’ll know that you can absolutely play Sorcerer’s mobility/teleport skills effectively with a controller. There are plenty of creators on YouTube who play Sorcerer very well on controller. So in my opinion, that’s more of a skill issue than a class issue.

And if you think Sorcerer isn’t particularly strong, you could always challenge yourself by playing a pure Arcanist, which is one of the least-played classes in PvP, or a pure Necromancer, or even a pure Warden.

Incidentally, my pure Warden has absolutely terrible resource sustain. But once I mix in the Sorcerer skill line, the build feels *much* better to play.

Let’s stop using “I see this around me, therefore it must be true” as our entire argument and actually look at the statistics.

Where are those statistics coming from? If they are from BGs you cannot just assume that the same percentage is on Cyrodiil. Besides, things might be completely different on PS NA.

So I made it very clear from the very beginning: “At least in PvP Battlegrounds.” That is the premise of my entire argument. I don’t understand why you ignored that and then responded with something that was completely beside the point.

If you think my data isn’t objective enough, then present your own data. Why don’t you start making an addon to collect the data yourself? The person making the claim bears the burden of proof. I’ve already provided evidence to support my position. Now it’s your turn. Don’t just rely on emotional, anecdotal impressions.

Secondly, there are plenty of Sorcerers zooming around in Cyrodiil too. There are tons of Sorcerer PvP creators on YouTube playing in Cyrodiil. Every time someone brings up nerfing Sorcerer, a bunch of people immediately jump out to oppose it. Doesn’t that, in itself, suggest that there are a lot of people playing Sorcerer? Because a nerf would directly affect your interests.

I support reasonable nerfs to any overpowered class, even if it’s the class I’m currently playing. Why don’t you try playing PvP on some different classes before arguing with me about whether Sorcerer deserves a nerf?

I’ve played PvP on at least three different classes. And, coincidentally, I never managed to play any of them during their strongest meta periods. But I suppose if I had just kept playing Sorcerer, I could have stayed in the meta the entire time. lol.

What about you?

Or how about this: delete every class except Sorcerer. Then everyone can play Sorcerer, and there’s no need to argue about nerfs or buffs anymore. We wouldn’t even need class balance changes. Problem solved, right? Are you really good or just because of the meta build, we'll know.
When the tide goes out, you’ll see who’s been swimming naked.

I’m not talking about BGs. PS NA Cyrodiil has very few Sorcerers unless you count the multitude of werewolves that are dominating right now. You can’t say there are plenty of sorcerers around me if you are on another server.

I can’t make addons because I am on console.

People just don’t like streak so they ask for sorc nerfs, just like they don’t want to slot a skill like flare to reveal nightblades and have one less damage skill on their bars. So nightblades got nerfed hard. I don’t see many of those in Cyrodiil either. This is what it is all about. At least you can’t get killed by streak. It’s irritating so you call for nerfs.

I can’t kill DKs and I can’t kill werewolves so how can I be overpowered?

For the record I played a Stam DK back when they were garbage, a stamina templar around the jabs and backlash nerf time, and this sorc, which was useless until only recently.

Given what you’ve said so far, it’s pretty clear that you have very little understanding of Battlegrounds. Honestly, I’m not even convinced you’re particularly good at PvP. So let me explain what Battlegrounds are actually like right now.

Overall, Battlegrounds have a much faster pace than Cyrodiil, and you can basically be fighting constantly. And because ZOS designed the Battlegrounds objectives and mechanics far too simply, combined with the way the ranking system works, most players are now much more focused on their **kill/death ratio** than actually playing the objectives.

In WoW, Battlegrounds are about completing objectives to score points. The reward feedback for actually playing the objectives is strong enough that if you only care about killing people, you simply won’t make it into high-scoring Battlegrounds.

ESO is different. The reward for completing objectives in Battlegrounds is relatively weak. It’s nowhere near as impressive or attention-grabbing as posting a perfect kill/death ratio in a YouTube video. As a result, it’s very common in ESO Battlegrounds for the stronger team to completely push the weaker team back to their spawn and farm them there.

The screenshot I posted earlier already showed you how ridiculous Sorcerer’s kill/death statistics are in Battlegrounds. Not long ago, when I checked the total-damage statistics, Sorcerer was still in first place. Dragonknight has overtaken it now, of course. **But Sorcerer is still number one in kill/death ratio.**

So is that still not enough to demonstrate the problem?

Since we’re talking about Streak again, let me bring up another similar teleportation ability: **Arcanist has a portal skill in its healing skill line.**

Which do you think gets used more often: Sorcerer’s Streak or Arcanist’s portal?

Based on my own Battlegrounds experience, I’ve only seen **two people** use the Arcanist portal so far—and one of them was a friend of mine who was trying to challenge himself by making a non-burst/one-shot Arcanist PvP build.

League of Legends used to have a Flash summoner spell as well, and it was basically a default pick. Doesn’t that demonstrate how powerful instant mobility can be?

So if you can’t figure out how to make effective use of Streak, that’s simply a skill issue on your end.

I also asked you this earlier, and you never answered:

**Would you be willing to swap Sorcerer’s Class Mastery with another class’s Class Mastery?**

I asked a friend of mine who plays Dragonknight, and he said he’d happily make that trade. His reasoning was that Dragonknight would become extremely tanky with Sorcerer’s Class Mastery, while Sorcerer wouldn’t necessarily gain that much extra damage from Dragonknight’s Class Mastery—it would simply become much squishier.

So, would you make the trade?

**Ask yourself honestly.**

imPDA wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

A correction to something I said earlier: according to the current Battlegrounds statistics, Sorcerer does **not** actually have the highest total damage. However, Sorcerer does have the highest **kill/death ratio**.

A correction for correction, you showed not **total** damage, it is just **highest** damage and KDA for some particular match. It has nothing to damage of class, you need an average, or even better - median - to compare class to class.

Also, for popularity, it should account for time, because popularity can shift drastically and it will shift after DK and WW nerf :P It would be better to show only last 30 days distribution.

If you think my data isn’t objective enough, then present your own data. Why don’t you start making an addon to collect the data yourself?

Actually, not a bad idea at all. I will make one, or to be more precise, I will add this feature into ImpressiveStats This addon exists for over a year, and I know players with thousands matches recorded, so at least for BGs, I will be able to provide nice stats.

Can do the same for ToT card decks tho and for duels, but in duels you decide who to fight, so it is not representative enough (but still can add to show what classes you fight against with win rates).

Great. Waiting for your good news.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I don't think any class should be measured on how strong they are in 1v10, by that point my templar should be able to stand in ritual and hold it's ground 1v10? After all zos seems to think templar is the hold your house class, why shouldn't I be able to get the same results as a sorc doing what my class is apparently designed for?

Anyhow, sorc has been consistently one of the strongest classes in most forms of pvp due to its high damage and mobility, and to be fair I think that's fine.

I do think conservation is simply too strong, simply because I think the level of sustain it provides invalidates one of the core pillars of Eso's combat. Same goes for Core of Flame ofc.
While I don't think you should be forced to run a sustain set on every build, I do think there needs to be a happy medium where sustain needs to be a consideration for every build, and then we should be provided the tools to make our choices.
On my sorc in no cp bgs right now, I run no sustain food, armor potions, no sustain mundus or set of any kind, and I have to be chased by multiple high damage builds for a long time to ever drop.low on resources.
That's not OK in my book, neither is dks using 1 ability that allows them to sustain permablock indefinitely while also ignoring all other forms of sustain.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

@katanagirl1

Besides, even though we can’t change the current state of Cyrodiil, I’ve never considered 1v10 situations to be reasonable. The same goes for ball groups in Cyrodiil. All of these unhealthy aspects are among the reasons why ESO has driven players away over the years. The feedback that actually needed to be heard simply wasn’t being listened to.

You don’t seriously think that defending Sorcerer the way you’re doing right now is beneficial to the development of this game, do you?

I’m guessing it probably feels pretty bad to finally switch classes, start doing well on Sorcerer, and then be told that it’s because the class is overpowered rather than because you’re actually a good player.

But unlike you, I’m not going to pretend that Sorcerer isn’t extremely strong.

Maybe learn to be honest with yourself first.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

Are you kidding me? The pet build has never been strong, and there are plenty of players who actually want the pet playstyle to be buffed.

You said you really like Cyrodiil, so do you play Revenge? The Revenge mode is relatively fair, which is why I play it. In Revenge, there’s no 10v1—there’s only 10 killing 1. That said, Sorcerers really aren’t very common in Revenge. (P.S. Nightblades are still a bit too strong there, though.)

P.S.: I think the biggest problem with Revenge is that ZOS went in the wrong direction by choosing Cyrodiil as the basis for it. Cyrodiil needs a sufficient number of players for the experience to be fun. It would have been much better to turn Revenge into a deathmatch-style arena. New players would have an easier time getting into PvP because they wouldn’t just get instantly deleted, and class balance would also be much easier to adjust.

But judging from what you've said earlier, you probably don't play Revenge, and you might even be part of a ball group. The reason I say this is because you deliberately misinterpret what other people are saying and then condemn their behavior—that’s a common tactic used by cliques to suppress anyone who disagrees with them.

I haven’t gained any better understanding of the game from talking to you. You keep repeating your own experiences like a broken record while avoiding many of the questions I asked, which makes me think you fundamentally don’t understand the Sorcerer class. And if you don’t understand the class, then naturally you wouldn’t understand how strong Sorcerer actually is. After all, you’re a player who can’t even use Streak properly.

So I think we can probably end this argument here.
Enjoy your weak Sorc, I'll enjoy my Sorc, too.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

LMAO, “when DK has many skills that seem to do this.” Okay, tell me—what skills, specifically?

Warden only has Wings as a source of Major Expedition, while Sorcerer has Streak and Minor Expedition. If you don’t use Streak, that’s a you problem. Templar only has one charge that provides a significant gap closer.

Sorcerer has never been in the dumpster. Even back when hybrid builds were the norm, people running duels would almost always pick up a Sorcerer skill line.

Coming up with such a laughable counterargument really shows your level of understanding. If ZOS keeps taking feedback from people like you, this game is genuinely doomed.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.