aetherix8 wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

There is a big problem with spying in Cyrodiil and IC.
We need a way to report these players and accounts for spying, then hold them accountable for treason like in the real world.
I understand that people argue that spying is a part of war, and so is holding spies accountable.
We can use the in-game report for a player/account, but nothing is done about that.
I have noticed players standing around in the ladder room in IC watching players go up the ladders to a city zone, then "magically" players from another faction show up. When a player hasn't moved in 10 minutes, we know something is up, and they're telling their friends, or even using another account, where players are going. This is spying and the account/player needs to be held accountable. That is how real war works when a spy is found, they are either imprisoned or held for treason and removed from the world. The same thing should happen. The spy accounts should be either banned from any and all PvP action or have their account banned completely.
We have spying going on in Cyrodiil also. The same thing should apply to that zone also. People will spy and while they're in Discord with their friends on a different faction, so nobody is really grouping up solo players looking for group, and zone chat has nothing but social discussions going on, so it's hard for solo players to actually know what's going on and where to go.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed ASAP. If players know they will be banned in all PvP activity for spying, or have their accounts banned, things will change.

sshogrin wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

If this is a wargame, and scouting and spying is part of war, you can't ban a player for doing gaming things. That's like banning a player for killing another player and taking their loot.

It's the game.

If you see a spy, tell people, so they can go fight it.

If you actually read what my post, you'd see that I already addressed your "counter point". Holding a spy for treason and taking them out of existence is part of war also. Lots of times spies are killed by the government they were spying on. Banning the account from PvP activities or the game itself is the same thing as deleting the person in real life.

You argument doesn't hold water at all.

My opinion is based mostly on my Cyrodiil perspective. Spying has been part of warfare since ancient times. It is simply a part of existence even in times of peace (e.g., corporate spying). And although I can understand the frustration to a certain degree, banning accounts is just an extremely unfair proposition.

The fact that there are spies to deal with in Cyrodiil adds an extra layer of challenge to the activity. Factions have to find other ways to coordinate their objectives, since the zone chat is insecure (e.g., create specific guilds meant exclusively for coordination, and where members are selected very carefully). Just like IRL, war plans are classified and accessible only to players who have the clearance; nobody publishes their war objectives in tabloids IRL either. You can also use the zone chat to deceive and mislead your enemies.
That makes the game more interesting; it reflects the real world accurately, and so it makes Cyrodiil more immersive. Without spies, Cyrodiil gameplay would be much more dull, trivial, and boring.

Also, asking for banning accounts isn't demanding that the government solve the issue. ZOS isn't the government; your faction leaders, zone commanders, and guild masters are the government. What you are asking for is equivalent to requesting a divine intervention—you're demanding that the heavens strike your enemies with fireballs out of existence.

You are saying that spying has been a part of warfare since ancient times, and dealing with those spies when found has been around since spying started. In ancient times the spy was killed immediately, to never come back and spy again. If someone is on the same faction as you, you can't attack them and kill them, so the only recourse is to kill the account by banning it.
Your argument doesn't work since there has always been a counter to spies, which has usually been met with death.

Zone chat in PvP zones is only for the faction you're on, so in essence, it is "classified". Zone chat isn't a "tabloid", your analogy is completely misguided and wrong.

Guild leaders, zone commanders, etc., can't ban an account, only ZOS can do that, and since you can't as a player attack and kill or ban another player on the same faction, this is again another horrible analogy or comparison that you're using. In all reality ZOS is the overall world government that controls all factions and zones of the game. That is a fact that can't be argued or disputed.

If ZOS gave the factions the power to kill the player and ban that player from the zone, then things would be different, but since only ZOS can do that, that's why ZOS needs to step up and be like the UN.

None of your analogies or comparisons can apply since they aren't even close to the same as you might think they are.
As much as you are arguing against this problem, it would make me think that you're one of those people that does use spy accounts when playing. You can deny it if you want, but that's exactly what a spy would do.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

If this is a wargame, and scouting and spying is part of war, you can't ban a player for doing gaming things. That's like banning a player for killing another player and taking their loot.

It's the game.

If you see a spy, tell people, so they can go fight it.

Players have been banned for having multiple accounts open at the same time in order to spy on the other side.

Got any proof of that? AFAIK that is not against terms of service unless they were full-on multiboxing.

Additionally, in the past ZOS has explicitly stated that spying is 100% allowed.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I often get up and go AFK just after queuing into IC from Cyrodiil, to go grab a coffee, attend to a cat, take a bio break, etc. If I was running around in the sewers and got killed, releasing will plop me down in the area by the banker and ladders, and I may need to go AFK while standing there. If I'm going to have to start worrying about being falsely reported as a spy because of a few overly-suspicious players in my own alliance, then that's just stupid and insane. And I gotta tell you, as a "true blue" PvPer who hates red and yellow with a passion (in PvP), there is no bleeping way I would ever feed information to those sides. They go out of their way to home in on me and kill me every chance they get, even if there are dozens of other blues around. If you think I'm ever going to do anything to help their sides, you're out of your freaking mind.

so if you go AFK, don't stand by the ladders.
Put "AFK" in zone chat so people know you're AFK.

Seems pretty simple solution to me.
I've seen people standing around in the ladders for over a half hour not moving at all. I go up a certain ladder, then here comes some other faction within a minute. I go up a different ladder, here comes the same exact players within a minute, etc. If you want to tell me that the person standing by the ladders isn't spying, then I don't know what to tell you. There's no way the same player(s) can know what district someone is going to like that. There's no way you can convince me otherwise.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

If this is a wargame, and scouting and spying is part of war, you can't ban a player for doing gaming things. That's like banning a player for killing another player and taking their loot.

It's the game.

If you see a spy, tell people, so they can go fight it.

Players have been banned for having multiple accounts open at the same time in order to spy on the other side.

Got any proof of that? AFAIK that is not against terms of service unless they were full-on multiboxing.

Additionally, in the past ZOS has explicitly stated that spying is 100% allowed.

So ZOS needs to implement a way to for players of the faction being spied on to take care of the spy other than not using zone chat. In real life, a spy would be killed or thrown in prison. Since people want to base this off real life, there's real life for you. If you get killed as a spy in real life, there is no coming back to spy, you're just dead, done.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

It sure is a crazy take wanting people literally banned from the game for playing differently than one likes. I got a chuckle out of this, thank you.

You totally missed the point and obviously didn't understand the post at all.
This isn't about someone playing differently that one likes as you suggest. It's about consequences of spying. In real life, spies are eliminated, killed, or imprisoned. Banning the account/player would effectively be the same.
Now, if ZOS could implement a way for the faction that's being spied on to take action against the spy, then fine. Let the players of the faction that are being spied on be able to kill the spy or put them in prison to be held. There should be some way of countering the spy instead of just letting someone stand there at a base telling their friends what's going on.
People want to equate this to real life war, so in real life war, spies are actually dealt with, whether it's death or prison. If they are in prison, then they don't get to see what's going on or zone chat. Any and all game chat for them is shut off while they are in jail. Make it so they are actually held for a certain amount of time that they can't do anything except sit in that jail cell.

The thing you're failing to see is that winning Cyrodiil isn't the same as winning WWII. There's no lives at stake, no long term consequences, no geo-political landscape that's disrupted.

First place in Cyrodiil gets you ~5k to 10k extra gold (lol), and a piece of blue or purple gear that, if you're playing Cyrodiil even remotely regularly, you likely already have a full sticker book for. The best reward that Cyrodiil gives you, Transmute Crystals, are given in equal amounts to everyone, and even the 50 Transmute Crystals are kind of a joke now that you get a 25 Transmute Crystal geode in ~50% of Battlegrounds matches.

If someone is so completely addicted to this game that they are spying to win an extra 10k gold and some inventory deconstruction fodder, my best advice to you would be to ignore them since they're only wasting their own time. You'll end up enjoying the game a lot more once you stop caring about the .01% that care way too much about some meaningless rewards.

Totally irrelevant.

Everybody is equating spying to the real world and that spying is a part of war.
So is killing the spy in real life war.
There is no mechanism for a faction to kill a spy in ESO. That should be addressed and fixed. Whether it's actually being able to kill the player for spying, then they are booted from the PvP zone and are on a cool down for like a day to a week to go back in to any PvP zone, or throw them in PvP prison where they can't see any chat and they can't chat with their buddies in game for like a week or month. There should be consequences for getting caught spying, like there is in real life.

It doesn't matter about the rewards. As far as the ".01%", in reality it's a lot more than that when you include their buddies that they're helping and the faction they're helping.

sshogrin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

It sure is a crazy take wanting people literally banned from the game for playing differently than one likes. I got a chuckle out of this, thank you.

You totally missed the point and obviously didn't understand the post at all.
This isn't about someone playing differently that one likes as you suggest. It's about consequences of spying. In real life, spies are eliminated, killed, or imprisoned. Banning the account/player would effectively be the same.
Now, if ZOS could implement a way for the faction that's being spied on to take action against the spy, then fine. Let the players of the faction that are being spied on be able to kill the spy or put them in prison to be held. There should be some way of countering the spy instead of just letting someone stand there at a base telling their friends what's going on.
People want to equate this to real life war, so in real life war, spies are actually dealt with, whether it's death or prison. If they are in prison, then they don't get to see what's going on or zone chat. Any and all game chat for them is shut off while they are in jail. Make it so they are actually held for a certain amount of time that they can't do anything except sit in that jail cell.

The thing you're failing to see is that winning Cyrodiil isn't the same as winning WWII. There's no lives at stake, no long term consequences, no geo-political landscape that's disrupted.

First place in Cyrodiil gets you ~5k to 10k extra gold (lol), and a piece of blue or purple gear that, if you're playing Cyrodiil even remotely regularly, you likely already have a full sticker book for. The best reward that Cyrodiil gives you, Transmute Crystals, are given in equal amounts to everyone, and even the 50 Transmute Crystals are kind of a joke now that you get a 25 Transmute Crystal geode in ~50% of Battlegrounds matches.

If someone is so completely addicted to this game that they are spying to win an extra 10k gold and some inventory deconstruction fodder, my best advice to you would be to ignore them since they're only wasting their own time. You'll end up enjoying the game a lot more once you stop caring about the .01% that care way too much about some meaningless rewards.

Totally irrelevant.

Everybody is equating spying to the real world and that spying is a part of war.
So is killing the spy in real life war.
There is no mechanism for a faction to kill a spy in ESO. That should be addressed and fixed. Whether it's actually being able to kill the player for spying, then they are booted from the PvP zone and are on a cool down for like a day to a week to go back in to any PvP zone, or throw them in PvP prison where they can't see any chat and they can't chat with their buddies in game for like a week or month. There should be consequences for getting caught spying, like there is in real life.

It doesn't matter about the rewards. As far as the ".01%", in reality it's a lot more than that when you include their buddies that they're helping and the faction they're helping.

It is not irrelevant. Rewards matter, as there's literally 0 reason to be upset about spying when there's little to no real benefit to spying.

Even assuming that it helps a lot (which it doesn't - most Cyrodiil fights are decided by where the ballgroup goes during prime time and which faction night-caps during off hours), if the faction that wins because of spying isn't getting anything for it, why does it matter to you? You're missing out on, at most, 10k gold over a 30 day period. You likely make 10 times that in selling or deconning gear you get from Rewards for the Worthy in that amount of time.

sshogrin wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I often get up and go AFK just after queuing into IC from Cyrodiil, to go grab a coffee, attend to a cat, take a bio break, etc. If I was running around in the sewers and got killed, releasing will plop me down in the area by the banker and ladders, and I may need to go AFK while standing there. If I'm going to have to start worrying about being falsely reported as a spy because of a few overly-suspicious players in my own alliance, then that's just stupid and insane. And I gotta tell you, as a "true blue" PvPer who hates red and yellow with a passion (in PvP), there is no bleeping way I would ever feed information to those sides. They go out of their way to home in on me and kill me every chance they get, even if there are dozens of other blues around. If you think I'm ever going to do anything to help their sides, you're out of your freaking mind.

so if you go AFK, don't stand by the ladders.
Put "AFK" in zone chat so people know you're AFK.

Seems pretty simple solution to me.
I've seen people standing around in the ladders for over a half hour not moving at all. I go up a certain ladder, then here comes some other faction within a minute. I go up a different ladder, here comes the same exact players within a minute, etc. If you want to tell me that the person standing by the ladders isn't spying, then I don't know what to tell you. There's no way the same player(s) can know what district someone is going to like that. There's no way you can convince me otherwise.

Yeah, and if I'm standing there AFK for 5 minutes and someone queues into IC right after I posted "going AFK" in zone chat, they aren't going to see my message because entering a zone doesn't auto-load the previous X minutes' worth of zone chat from before you got there into your zone chat.

I think this whole presumed "spying problem," as well as the proposed "solution" for it, is bonkers. Spying may occur, and from what I've read in these forums, it supposedly does occur. But I think you are so focused on this issue that you're magnifying the scope of it too much, to the extent that you're now imagining that anyone who's standing around in the ladder room AFK must be a spy and needs to be reported for "high crimes and treason." I mean, are you thinking that these so-called "spies" are somehow able to see how much Tel Var the other players are carrying on their character? "Attention, Red Leader 1, this is Blue Spy 3, reporting that a blue player carrying 100,000 Tel Var just went up the ladder to Memorial District." I mean, what good would telling anyone in another faction that someone from ones own faction just went up into a particular district, without there being any kind of guarantee that the other players were carrying a lot of Tel Var and were horrible at PvP? Your whole premise seems beyond flimsy to me, and the part where you think it would be a really good idea to report AFK players and try to get them banned seems outlandish and bonkers to me.

So you want people banned for...what, looking at you in a funny way?

How exactly do you plan on actually proving that they were spying? It's a ridiculous accusation, because correlation does not equal causation. Just because one player was standing in a certain spot, doesn't mean that they summoned the other players that killed you.

It just kicks in the door for people who aren't doing a thing to end up banned, because someone assumed that they were doing something wrong, when they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not saying people don't spy, I'm saying your solution would cause more problems than it would solve. And spies die in game just as easily as any other player does. Cyrodiil and IC dish out their own justice in the end, if one has the skill and the gear to deliver it.

In the end, there is absolutely no way to actually subvert spying, especially when people can use things like discord, which is completely out of ZOS's control. And innocent players don't deserve to get accused of spying when most of them aren't even aware that it occurs.

sshogrin wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

There is a big problem with spying in Cyrodiil and IC.
We need a way to report these players and accounts for spying, then hold them accountable for treason like in the real world.
I understand that people argue that spying is a part of war, and so is holding spies accountable.
We can use the in-game report for a player/account, but nothing is done about that.
I have noticed players standing around in the ladder room in IC watching players go up the ladders to a city zone, then "magically" players from another faction show up. When a player hasn't moved in 10 minutes, we know something is up, and they're telling their friends, or even using another account, where players are going. This is spying and the account/player needs to be held accountable. That is how real war works when a spy is found, they are either imprisoned or held for treason and removed from the world. The same thing should happen. The spy accounts should be either banned from any and all PvP action or have their account banned completely.
We have spying going on in Cyrodiil also. The same thing should apply to that zone also. People will spy and while they're in Discord with their friends on a different faction, so nobody is really grouping up solo players looking for group, and zone chat has nothing but social discussions going on, so it's hard for solo players to actually know what's going on and where to go.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed ASAP. If players know they will be banned in all PvP activity for spying, or have their accounts banned, things will change.

sshogrin wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

If this is a wargame, and scouting and spying is part of war, you can't ban a player for doing gaming things. That's like banning a player for killing another player and taking their loot.

It's the game.

If you see a spy, tell people, so they can go fight it.

If you actually read what my post, you'd see that I already addressed your "counter point". Holding a spy for treason and taking them out of existence is part of war also. Lots of times spies are killed by the government they were spying on. Banning the account from PvP activities or the game itself is the same thing as deleting the person in real life.

You argument doesn't hold water at all.

My opinion is based mostly on my Cyrodiil perspective. Spying has been part of warfare since ancient times. It is simply a part of existence even in times of peace (e.g., corporate spying). And although I can understand the frustration to a certain degree, banning accounts is just an extremely unfair proposition.

The fact that there are spies to deal with in Cyrodiil adds an extra layer of challenge to the activity. Factions have to find other ways to coordinate their objectives, since the zone chat is insecure (e.g., create specific guilds meant exclusively for coordination, and where members are selected very carefully). Just like IRL, war plans are classified and accessible only to players who have the clearance; nobody publishes their war objectives in tabloids IRL either. You can also use the zone chat to deceive and mislead your enemies.
That makes the game more interesting; it reflects the real world accurately, and so it makes Cyrodiil more immersive. Without spies, Cyrodiil gameplay would be much more dull, trivial, and boring.

Also, asking for banning accounts isn't demanding that the government solve the issue. ZOS isn't the government; your faction leaders, zone commanders, and guild masters are the government. What you are asking for is equivalent to requesting a divine intervention—you're demanding that the heavens strike your enemies with fireballs out of existence.

You are saying that spying has been a part of warfare since ancient times, and dealing with those spies when found has been around since spying started. In ancient times the spy was killed immediately, to never come back and spy again. If someone is on the same faction as you, you can't attack them and kill them, so the only recourse is to kill the account by banning it.
Your argument doesn't work since there has always been a counter to spies, which has usually been met with death.

Zone chat in PvP zones is only for the faction you're on, so in essence, it is "classified". Zone chat isn't a "tabloid", your analogy is completely misguided and wrong.

Guild leaders, zone commanders, etc., can't ban an account, only ZOS can do that, and since you can't as a player attack and kill or ban another player on the same faction, this is again another horrible analogy or comparison that you're using. In all reality ZOS is the overall world government that controls all factions and zones of the game. That is a fact that can't be argued or disputed.

If ZOS gave the factions the power to kill the player and ban that player from the zone, then things would be different, but since only ZOS can do that, that's why ZOS needs to step up and be like the UN.

None of your analogies or comparisons can apply since they aren't even close to the same as you might think they are.
As much as you are arguing against this problem, it would make me think that you're one of those people that does use spy accounts when playing. You can deny it if you want, but that's exactly what a spy would do.

This is totally delusional and completely blown out of proportion. Not only you ask for banning accounts that are afk, but now also anyone who disagrees with you must be a spy too, and therefore should be banned as well. Your premise is utterly ridiculous. It appears to me that you could use a break from the game yourself; that would help you gain some distance and remember that this is just a game.

Kinda scary 😮 I used Mayhem time to level up war skill lines on different characters. I raided with all 3 alliance in result. Do you think I m spy?

Wait, people pretend to be part of factions they are not in Cyrodiil and IC? GASP. Where are my pearls!

sshogrin wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

If this is a wargame, and scouting and spying is part of war, you can't ban a player for doing gaming things. That's like banning a player for killing another player and taking their loot.

It's the game.

If you see a spy, tell people, so they can go fight it.

If you actually read what my post, you'd see that I already addressed your "counter point". Holding a spy for treason and taking them out of existence is part of war also. Lots of times spies are killed by the government they were spying on. Banning the account from PvP activities or the game itself is the same thing as deleting the person in real life.

You argument doesn't hold water at all.

You want to permanently ban people for being afk in the faction base for actions they may or may not be committing?

Look, IC is small. The spawn points for the ladders are easily mapped out. I go into IC once every 4 to 5 months for grinding and after a few years of this i know exactly where to check and camp if I want to get someone as they come off of spawn. Its obvious.

This is a video game in a fantasy setting, its a game. Unless you have tangible proof that someone is gaming the system, then you dont have any and are just assuming.

sshogrin wrote: »

There is a big problem with spying in Cyrodiil and IC.
We need a way to report these players and accounts for spying, then hold them accountable for treason like in the real world.
I understand that people argue that spying is a part of war, and so is holding spies accountable.
We can use the in-game report for a player/account, but nothing is done about that.
I have noticed players standing around in the ladder room in IC watching players go up the ladders to a city zone, then "magically" players from another faction show up. When a player hasn't moved in 10 minutes, we know something is up, and they're telling their friends, or even using another account, where players are going. This is spying and the account/player needs to be held accountable. That is how real war works when a spy is found, they are either imprisoned or held for treason and removed from the world. The same thing should happen. The spy accounts should be either banned from any and all PvP action or have their account banned completely.
We have spying going on in Cyrodiil also. The same thing should apply to that zone also. People will spy and while they're in Discord with their friends on a different faction, so nobody is really grouping up solo players looking for group, and zone chat has nothing but social discussions going on, so it's hard for solo players to actually know what's going on and where to go.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed ASAP. If players know they will be banned in all PvP activity for spying, or have their accounts banned, things will change.

It's too late to re-invent the last 12 years.

You're right on everything however this here is just the tip of the iceberg. It gets much worse. So much so that I do PvE still but have withdrawn from PvP altogether. Too much spite, personal attacks, lack of respect, lack of 'professional courtesy' among ah 'leaders' (if you can call them that). PvP especially in Cyrodiil is more and more resembling being an excusive enterprise, not unlike New World wars. I was in New World for years and every war was 'removed'. I spent over a year building influence for the Syndicate for example, but even with a strong, professionally built end game build was always kicked.

And it's similar to that in ESO PvP now. That's why I say if the PvP isn't gainful, then I don't go. If whomever is 'dominant' on the server but they don't rez, they don't escort scrolls, they don't provide the same support for ham like we all have done for them, I do not support them. They get nothing from me. Personal attacks on me in zone for just joking around, like with AD on Blackreach, a certain person there has run many of us away from the AD faction. She has and the sad fact is, probably at least a third of you know exactly who I'm referring to but let's respect their privacy regardless. Let's do better than 'they' have done to us.

IC is just a nightmare now. God help the poor impoverished DC players lose a boss or two. God help you if they find you farming 'their' boss. Like I said its alot of stuff thats gone on for far too long. And the only thing you can do is try to separate yourself from it which sucks if you're someone like me who still loves the game.

Okay, I'll bite.

If you worry about "spying" in Cyrodiil you are prioritizing the wrong problem. The general movements of the zerg are often ridiculously easy to predict to anyone who's been playing for a while and is capable of basic pattern recognition.

There is also no way for you to know if someone is "spying," so I don't know how you see this play out in practice. The last thing we need in Cyrodiil is creating a(nother) reason for players to get suspended for no real reason.

Also think about it, how many people do you think there are who willingly spend money on a second account, and stand in Cyrodiil all evening reading zone chat to help their alliance instead of, you know, actually playing with their alliance. It would be far more effective to simply port between keeps on your own faction to scout and call out attacks early, which is actually something that happens constantly since there is a good chunk of dead time in Cyrodiil where no big fights are happening.

Comparing a video game to real warfare is downright laughable. If you extrapolate that logic, everyone who enters Cyrodiil should observe permadeath rules until one faction remains standing.

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Okay, I'll bite.

If you worry about "spying" in Cyrodiil you are prioritizing the wrong problem. The general movements of the zerg are often ridiculously easy to predict to anyone who's been playing for a while and is capable of basic pattern recognition.

There is also no way for you to know if someone is "spying," so I don't know how you see this play out in practice. The last thing we need in Cyrodiil is creating a(nother) reason for players to get suspended for no real reason.

Also think about it, how many people do you think there are who willingly spend money on a second account, and stand in Cyrodiil all evening reading zone chat to help their alliance instead of, you know, actually playing with their alliance. It would be far more effective to simply port between keeps on your own faction to scout and call out attacks early, which is actually something that happens constantly since there is a good chunk of dead time in Cyrodiil where no big fights are happening.

Comparing a video game to real warfare is downright laughable. If you extrapolate that logic, everyone who enters Cyrodiil should observe permadeath rules until one faction remains standing.

I was actually more making a comment about the spying in IC if you paid attention to the original post.
How do I know they're spying? It's very simple, when a character doesn't leave the ladder room in a base, but the same player or two go to the same districts immediately when you go up a certain district ladder, it doesn't take someone smart or with have intelligence to figure out what's going on.
Other people that defend spying are the ones comparing it to real warfare, so using their logic to defend spying and saying that people that spy shouldn't be banned, I'm only giving the real life consequences of what happens to a spy, they are terminated from the game of life, meaning no more playing.
How people can't understand that is beyond me, but this is what it is, people will defend spying when in fact it's an exploit of the game.