Zallion wrote: »

Nail on the head, very well put and accurate.

I can live with each class having an OP tried and true combo of sorts that when executed properly melts faces off, I feel like this used to be the case years ago before healing and tankiness and power creep in general got out of control (meteor, javelin, J-beam. Incap, merciless, random proc set. Graveyard, colossus, blastbones. Haunting curse, streak, crystal frag, overload. Etc. Etc.)

Simple class staple combos that were just effective.

Burst combos back then were hitting with much much less damage instances than required now to actually burst someone low enough though.

Nerf healing with battle spirit, make sustain a thing for everyone to consider and manage in their build where casting abilities actually has a cost, fix or remove hp scaled healing, and in doing so increase TTK across the board and the game will be fun again. Damage is there still for most classes and builds to more or less global someone under the right conditions. Skill expression should always be the deciding factor with each class having 1-2 equalizer ace up their sleeve abilities offensively or defensively.

Your post I’m assuming is mostly referencing DKs and WWs, with the healing and sustain adjusted the damage and broken nature of both would surely come down in turn.

My post is largely referring to DK and WW. But DK and WW are just iterations of what we've seen in the past. Whether it was Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak, Vateshran 2H 1 shot builds, Oblivion's Foe/Syvarrah's Scales/Venom Hunter with malacath and BRP destro (miss this weapon) on Necromander release, targetable pets like the deadroth (which I loved) and overtuned bird heal. Or subclassing with storm calling, then to be overshadowed by class masteries which just mostly did DK a bit better and sorc a lot better than every other class.

Either make everything B tier or make everything S+ tier. Either make all the sets in the game as mediocre and meh as every other set or, bring back every set as it was orignally designed. Like bring back original DOT procs, original dark convergence and plaguebreak, original mythics (even signet). Let every set just be added fluff or let it really be a threat like it used to be. Right now you either do something like run Mechanical Acuity DK with Pyrebrand or you're just padding CMX stats, and not really contributing effectively to KCon.

Don't nerf DK? Don't nerf WW? Or at least don't overly nerf. I understand some things get tweaked. Then buff the hell out of every other class. If whip is doing 15-20k then let frags. Buff every ability too. Buff dots. Buff heals. Make everything powerful and viable.

Like just freaking do it already. Throw the game into chaos. What's left to lose. It would ACTUALLY shake something up to let a frag hit for 20-25k, a dot tick for 2k-3k, heals to to heal for a lot, add extra effects to everything, buff all the mythics.

Goregram1 wrote: »

At sum point u have to blame the players they choose to play the broken stuff an make other players rage quit they know what it is doing to the game but choose to still do it. in rust u can just sit on your roof an kill everyone for there loot or put landmines around monuments an ect but the sever will die very quickly more quickly then the severs without those kinds of players.

I understand that mentality but ZOS cannot control the decisions of other players neither can we. And so expecting other people to change isn't actually a solution, it's wishful thinking.

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

It sounds like you're saying if they can't balance as best as humanly possible, they shouldn't even try - which is wrong. I think they should try to get close to a reasonable balance level - it doesn't need scientific spreadsheet precision, but it needs to happen with things that are clearly busted.

they couldn't balance with a full team for years what are they gonna do with a fraction of what they had? its cooked.

Goregram1 wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

It sounds like you're saying if they can't balance as best as humanly possible, they shouldn't even try - which is wrong. I think they should try to get close to a reasonable balance level - it doesn't need scientific spreadsheet precision, but it needs to happen with things that are clearly busted.

they couldn't balance with a full team for years what are they gonna do with a fraction of what they had? its cooked.

To play devil's advocate for a second. More people isn't usually going to result in more balance. You need a solid core with a strength of vision for what something should be. And you need them directing all efforts toward that goal. In some cases I've seen that core be a single solitary person. I've never seen a strength of vision for a particular aspect that involved more than about six people and even that is pushing it.

Not that I'm saying things are now suddenly going to get better. Just wanted to break out my red cape and trident for a moment

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Nail on the head, very well put and accurate.

I can live with each class having an OP tried and true combo of sorts that when executed properly melts faces off, I feel like this used to be the case years ago before healing and tankiness and power creep in general got out of control (meteor, javelin, J-beam. Incap, merciless, random proc set. Graveyard, colossus, blastbones. Haunting curse, streak, crystal frag, overload. Etc. Etc.)

Simple class staple combos that were just effective.

Burst combos back then were hitting with much much less damage instances than required now to actually burst someone low enough though.

Nerf healing with battle spirit, make sustain a thing for everyone to consider and manage in their build where casting abilities actually has a cost, fix or remove hp scaled healing, and in doing so increase TTK across the board and the game will be fun again. Damage is there still for most classes and builds to more or less global someone under the right conditions. Skill expression should always be the deciding factor with each class having 1-2 equalizer ace up their sleeve abilities offensively or defensively.

Your post I’m assuming is mostly referencing DKs and WWs, with the healing and sustain adjusted the damage and broken nature of both would surely come down in turn.

My post is largely referring to DK and WW. But DK and WW are just iterations of what we've seen in the past. Whether it was Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak, Vateshran 2H 1 shot builds, Oblivion's Foe/Syvarrah's Scales/Venom Hunter with malacath and BRP destro (miss this weapon) on Necromander release, targetable pets like the deadroth (which I loved) and overtuned bird heal. Or subclassing with storm calling, then to be overshadowed by class masteries which just mostly did DK a bit better and sorc a lot better than every other class.

Either make everything B tier or make everything S+ tier. Either make all the sets in the game as mediocre and meh as every other set or, bring back every set as it was orignally designed. Like bring back original DOT procs, original dark convergence and plaguebreak, original mythics (even signet). Let every set just be added fluff or let it really be a threat like it used to be. Right now you either do something like run Mechanical Acuity DK with Pyrebrand or you're just padding CMX stats, and not really contributing effectively to KCon.

Don't nerf DK? Don't nerf WW? Or at least don't overly nerf. I understand some things get tweaked. Then buff the hell out of every other class. If whip is doing 15-20k then let frags. Buff every ability too. Buff dots. Buff heals. Make everything powerful and viable.

Like just freaking do it already. Throw the game into chaos. What's left to lose. It would ACTUALLY shake something up to let a frag hit for 20-25k, a dot tick for 2k-3k, heals to to heal for a lot, add extra effects to everything, buff all the mythics.

If all refreshes come out as overtuned as the last two then that very well may be the case.

There’s always been strong metas, nothing like we’re in now. But we did at points have balance very very close, which means to me there is a threshold or spectrum that can be dialed in if the right changes are made, many of which have been screamed from the rooftops for years, or even warnings given on PTS and ignored for patch after patch despite obvious negative implications.

True balance is nearly impossible to achieve but I do think it should never ultimately come down to class choice. Each class should have strong and competitive options (broken even?) with skills as well as sets. It really comes down to TTK, tankiness, healing, sustain. The disparity for what some classes have outright compared to others is so incredibly unacceptable, and that was prior to the refreshes tbh. Buff compression as well is the same thing. Mobility too even. Not in favor of homogeneous classes, but simply kits that are viable.

For sets, most of those old staples got left behind due to power creep and meta chasing, not so much direct nerfs, though yes some of them did receive those too. The amount of irrelevant and entirely obsolete sets is astounding though and they really should do another pass on old sets to make some of them viable. Not everything needs to be great but like 90% of the gear you can get or even craft is literal junk in most content, not even just PvP.

I guess at the end of the day, what I would like to see is each class having several competitive options, be it builds, sets, abilities, what have you, that make it so whatever you encounter isnt a complete wash if you’re not playing the flavor of the month (or in our case, flavor if the 1 year+) class.

For example, player skill level being more or less equal, a NB would never beat a DK. Nor a Sorc. Don’t even get me started on WWs.. If two classes were geared the same, the kit shouldn’t be the deciding factor. It should be player skill and how to utilize the kits effectively. Infinite stalemates shouldn’t exist because sustain shouldn’t be infinite in any scenario. And all of that just isnt the case these days. Some kits completely neglect or nearly neglect sustain when others don’t. Some have great or even good mobility options, others don’t. Some have great damage as well as healing, while others maybe have one or the other and have to invest a lot more to get a comparable amount. The disparities are just glaring and have been whined about on these forums forever, with a fair degree of validity.

If the refreshes are going to make all classes as strong as dks and WWs then honestly yeah we’ll be getting the chaos you’re referring to. And it may be a good thing, who knows. Only need to wait 15 more years to find out. Until then.. woof.

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

It sounds like you're saying if they can't balance as best as humanly possible, they shouldn't even try - which is wrong. I think they should try to get close to a reasonable balance level - it doesn't need scientific spreadsheet precision, but it needs to happen with things that are clearly busted.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

And they already scientifically spread sheet balance EXCEPT for when they do reworks or release new things like the new mythics, these class updates, new sets, etc.

You can go into the math on build editor and see the logic and flow of how things are numerically balanced. The issue is that they do in fact try to numerically balance things then introduce periodically these outliers be they sets, classes, mythics, or such, and they create absurd game states. They either need to leave everything chaotic and absurd or stop releasing things in overtuned statees and released them undertuned.

Do you want Marvel Rivals or Overwatch? That's the fundamental choice here.

LadyGP wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

At sum point u have to blame the players they choose to play the broken stuff an make other players rage quit they know what it is doing to the game but choose to still do it. in rust u can just sit on your roof an kill everyone for there loot or put landmines around monuments an ect but the sever will die very quickly more quickly then the severs without those kinds of players.

It's human nature players will ALWAYS find the broken things and take advantage of them.. in the whole history of humanity things that can be epxloited do.

It's that simple.

an in history/real world you can shame bad behavior but in eso that gets u banned bunch of clowns they if the devs cant fix it an the players refuse to not make it worse games doomed

Truth to be told I think there is a third option other than the madness we have atm and the spreadsheet mindset: developers should actually love, play and deeply understand the product they are working on and have a clear vision on their intention for the future of the product. Right now the miserable state of PvP and the hopeless dead-end of the 2+ years long class refresh situation really communicates that there is no unified vision, there is uncertainty for the players in what to expect from future gameplay (will it seriously remain unbearable for PvP and clunky in PvE for 2-3 years?) and though there are exciting premises of long needed changes, there are waaaay to many aspects and areas of the game left.. unfinished, unbalanced, unfun. I'm really rooting for ESO to find its way once again, and even though I was kind of hopeful even after the layoffs, seeing the lack of remedies in the notes of U51 made me logging in less week by week. I'm saddened that I feel that the last time I log in might come soonish.

Goregram1 wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

It sounds like you're saying if they can't balance as best as humanly possible, they shouldn't even try - which is wrong. I think they should try to get close to a reasonable balance level - it doesn't need scientific spreadsheet precision, but it needs to happen with things that are clearly busted.

they couldn't balance with a full team for years what are they gonna do with a fraction of what they had? its cooked.

To be honest though, notwithstanding the amount of developers they had in the prior years before the recent layoffs, did they ever give true consideration to cyrodiil itself? I always got this sense that cyrodiil was too big a bite to chew and so they never put too much energy into something they seemed to have considered as not profitable enough as PvE content.

MsGurrl wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

It sounds like you're saying if they can't balance as best as humanly possible, they shouldn't even try - which is wrong. I think they should try to get close to a reasonable balance level - it doesn't need scientific spreadsheet precision, but it needs to happen with things that are clearly busted.

they couldn't balance with a full team for years what are they gonna do with a fraction of what they had? its cooked.

To be honest though, notwithstanding the amount of developers they had in the prior years before the recent layoffs, did they ever give true consideration to cyrodiil itself? I always got this sense that cyrodiil was too big a bite to chew and so they never put too much energy into something they seemed to have considered as not profitable enough as PvE content.

I don't know the numbers, from what I recall and hear, housing and cosmetics - not PvE - is what is profitable.

If you ignore PVP and PvE balance you're going to lose casuals. Imagine 2 friends starting the game. One picks an arcanist and another picks DK. They both decide to casually duel each other. The arcanist cannot find a way to tickle their DK friend, no matter how many skills and builds they try, because balance is so bad in U51. Then the arcanist player feels bad about themselves because they don't realize they're playing a weak class. New players know nothing about the game. The devs should provide a baseline of balance.

Eventually the arcanist asks around and finds out arcanist is just weak in PvP and it's not their fault for spectacularly losing to DKs all the time. To most players, a severely unbalanced game signals that it's a waste of time to invest in the game. Especially because there's only 7 classes and not 50 like in WoW. Class choice is fixed at character inception. To most players, it feels like being punished for making the wrong choice when you knew nothing.

This also happened in PvE with green beam being so obviously dominant for years. Just signals that the company is greedy and wants you to buy arcanist. Which we all know but why make it so obvious?