The proposed Werewolf nerfs get it wrong once again.

dark_hunterxmg · August 5

I'm here to say I told you so. Werewolf is being nerfed again with class mastery passives in mind. You know, the ones that will get dialed back with subsequent reworks? Yeah, those.

Werewolf isn't even finished from the last patch. There are still bugs to be worked out and we're over here being hit with nerfs that miss the mark again.

XVestigeXx · August 5

I disagree WWs have far too much build power and needs to be reigned in. Next they need to nerf dk since other classes won't be buffed by their refreshes for assumedly years now with the layoffs. WWs were so oppressive they couldn't be bursted except by DK or out numbering them. The sustain changes are welcom and even the playing field. For context I only play Pure Stamblade and I PVP a LOT mostly solo brawler. This was a good change and a W from Zos along with Ele sus cost being added

XVestigeXx · August 5

I would like Heavy nerfs to DK and perhaps some lighter nerfs to sorc by looking at more niche builds on Sorc that are probably too strong

dark_hunterxmg · August 5

XVestigeXx wrote: »

I disagree WWs have far too much build power and needs to be reigned in. Next they need to nerf dk since other classes won't be buffed by their refreshes for assumedly years now with the layoffs. WWs were so oppressive they couldn't be bursted except by DK or out numbering them. The sustain changes are welcom and even the playing field. For context I only play Pure Stamblade and I PVP a LOT mostly solo brawler. This was a good change and a W from Zos along with Ele sus cost being added

If werewolf is going to be "reigned in" this isn't the right way. It wasn't the right way last time in U50 pts either.

XVestigeXx · August 5

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

I disagree WWs have far too much build power and needs to be reigned in. Next they need to nerf dk since other classes won't be buffed by their refreshes for assumedly years now with the layoffs. WWs were so oppressive they couldn't be bursted except by DK or out numbering them. The sustain changes are welcom and even the playing field. For context I only play Pure Stamblade and I PVP a LOT mostly solo brawler. This was a good change and a W from Zos along with Ele sus cost being added

If werewolf is going to be "reigned in" this isn't the right way. It wasn't the right way last time in U50 pts either.

well it was either that, or less tankiness and hp stacking or less dmg. you can't have 100s in every area. I mean be real, WW was way too OP in PVP. It needed nerfs. How would you reign them in differently? Now you actually have to build for sustain. Dk should have to as well

Vondreas · August 5

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf isn't even finished from the last patch. There are still bugs to be worked out and we're over here being hit with nerfs that miss the mark again.

Good. I am tired of rip and tear spam.

dark_hunterxmg · August 5

Vondreas wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf isn't even finished from the last patch. There are still bugs to be worked out and we're over here being hit with nerfs that miss the mark again.

Good. I am tired of rip and tear spam.

You'll see more of it now that the burst heal got nerfed even further.

IncultaWolf · August 5

Imo the issue was always the sorcerer class mastery conservation of energy. This was brought up during the first week of U50 pts by several players including myself. These proposed changes further enforce the requirement to play sorc ww to be competitive in pvp, which most people are already doing, but it's severely punishing for anyone that isn't on a sorcerer.

Another way of handling this would have been to require conservation of energy casting a sorcerer ability to proc, not any ability in the game with a cost.

The changes to devour/insatiable hunger also feel really bad and are going to make staying in berserker form while in combat even harder. The 200 ultimate threshold is too low. Please reconsider adjusting this.

Wuuffyy · August 5

Don't use your time on them. They have basically no forum reputation or profile picture and will repeat the same things over and over no matter what you say/do.

I'm simply trying to give a piece of advice for your sanity's sake @dark_hunterxmg.

Pretending like werewolf has no bugs, or things that can/should be improved just because you disagree with it being viable is beyond silly.

As far as sorc and werewolf goes, he's right you know. Thankfully everything else feels like absolute garbage though.

WalkingBomb · August 5

This seems pretty reasonable tbh.

aLi3nZ · August 5

XVestigeXx wrote: »

I would like Heavy nerfs to DK and perhaps some lighter nerfs to sorc by looking at more niche builds on Sorc that are probably too strong

Well they already nerfed status builds by nerfing draugerkin. Don’t touch my precious sorcs.

Vondreas · August 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Don't use your time on them. They have basically no forum reputation or profile picture and will repeat the same things over and over no matter what you say/do.

Nerf DK/WW/Sorc/Arc, buff Necro/Templar/Warden. I think since they are nerfing NB, they know ball.

You are game "veteran" and I play only play MMO's so I see the problem immediately and ZOS is doing the right thing already with these nerfs.

Wuuffyy · August 5

Vondreas wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Don't use your time on them. They have basically no forum reputation or profile picture and will repeat the same things over and over no matter what you say/do.

Nerf DK/WW/Sorc/Arc, buff Necro/Templar/Warden. I think since they are nerfing NB, they know ball.

You are game "veteran" and I play only play MMO's so I see the problem immediately and ZOS is doing the right thing already with these nerfs.

My translator didn’t work for this one, lmk what you’re trying to say as I’m a little lost here.

dark_hunterxmg · August 6

I was in a 27 minute duel last week with one of the strongest duelers in game. I was on Werewolf and they were on Dragon Knight. I was not going to kill this Dragon Knight. They had a good chance of killing me if I messed up though. They did 6k dps to me and I only did 3k to them. Nobody does 6k dps to my wolf, but this player did, while also being able to survive. My healing matched the incoming dps thankfully, but here's the part that isn't talked about. ~2600 HPS came from Blood Magic. The Sorcerer ability was my top healing source by a huge margin.

Blood Magic and Conservation of energy are the reason for U51 werewolf nerfs.

I'll say it one more time. Werewolf is being nerfed again because of items and abilities outside of the Werewolf kit.
@ZOS_Kevin, you're doing it wrong.

IncultaWolf · August 6

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

I was in a 27 minute duel last week with one of the strongest duelers in game. I was on Werewolf and they were on Dragon Knight. I was not going to kill this Dragon Knight. They had a good chance of killing me if I messed up though. They did 6k dps to me and I only did 3k to them. Nobody does 6k dps to my wolf, but this player did, while also being able to survive. My healing matched the incoming dps thankfully, but here's the part that isn't talked about. ~2600 HPS came from Blood Magic. The Sorcerer ability was my top healing source by a huge margin.

Blood Magic and Conservation of energy are the reason for U51 werewolf nerfs.

I'll say it one more time. Werewolf is being nerfed again because of items and abilities outside of the Werewolf kit.
@ZOS_Kevin, you're doing it wrong.

^^^^^^

Fenrir_Legacy · August 6

Whats wild is that im still going to get kills even with the nerfs. I spent years in the void as a werewolf player. While this is annoying it ain't going to stop people who actually know how to play Werewolf. I do love how dk and sorc continue to be ignored as far as nerfs go *snip*.

dark_hunterxmg · August 6

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

Whats wild is that im still going to get kills even with the nerfs. I spent years in the void as a werewolf player. While this is annoying it ain't going to stop people who actually know how to play Werewolf. I do love how dk and sorc continue to be ignored as far as nerfs go *snip*.

That's right. Ignore the actual strongest classes, but nerf the one with the strongest complaints instead.

Wuuffyy · August 6

IncultaWolf wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

I was in a 27 minute duel last week with one of the strongest duelers in game. I was on Werewolf and they were on Dragon Knight. I was not going to kill this Dragon Knight. They had a good chance of killing me if I messed up though. They did 6k dps to me and I only did 3k to them. Nobody does 6k dps to my wolf, but this player did, while also being able to survive. My healing matched the incoming dps thankfully, but here's the part that isn't talked about. ~2600 HPS came from Blood Magic. The Sorcerer ability was my top healing source by a huge margin.

Blood Magic and Conservation of energy are the reason for U51 werewolf nerfs.

I'll say it one more time. Werewolf is being nerfed again because of items and abilities outside of the Werewolf kit.
@ZOS_Kevin, you're doing it wrong.

^^^^^^

I wanna do that too haha ^^^^

But yes- I ran my live build on PTS and received very similar performance BUT ONLY on my sorc with CoE. With CoE mastery, I had long duels that made it clear to me that whatever you were targeting was NOT properly adjusted while the overcorrection made everything else feel atrocious and had an absolutely unnecessarily impact on PvE, especially out of comp groups.

An improper punishment that heavily affects the floor/off-meta and 'forces' anyone remaining to switch to sorc instead which almost fully remediates the consequences using the CoE mastery, at least in a 1 v 1, is not sufficient.

dark_hunterxmg · August 7

The cost of Pounce is far too high. This skill does not do enough to warrant that cost. The game forces the cast about 50% of the time for me when I don't want it. It chooses the wrong target frequently causing me to pounce on someone in the back of a group or behind me rather than cast Carnage on the target in front of me.
If the skill Pounce/Carnage hadn't been introduced in an incomplete buggy state, this would be a different conversation. I have already given my feedback about the dead zone where neither effect will cast.

The cost cost of Hircine's Fortitude is too high or the amount of healing that it provides. This heal costs 20% less than U49, but heals for 40% less than U49.

The cost of roar is too high, especially the defensive roar since I have to cast it 4 times to generate 4 stacks of blood hunger. The delay on the roar cast still needs to go away.

Blood claws does not connect to targets well enough to be a reliable source of blood hunger stacks or healing. I have also given my feedback previously for this.

Wuuffyy · August 7

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The cost of Pounce is far too high. This skill does not do enough to warrant that cost. The game forces the cast about 50% of the time for me when I don't want it. It chooses the wrong target frequently causing me to pounce on someone in the back of a group or behind me rather than cast Carnage on the target in front of me.
If the skill Pounce/Carnage hadn't been introduced in an incomplete buggy state, this would be a different conversation. I have already given my feedback about the dead zone where neither effect will cast.

The cost cost of Hircine's Fortitude is too high or the amount of healing that it provides. This heal costs 20% less than U49, but heals for 40% less than U49.

The cost of roar is too high, especially the defensive roar since I have to cast it 4 times to generate 4 stacks of blood hunger. The delay on the roar cast still needs to go away.

Blood claws does not connect to targets well enough to be a reliable source of blood hunger stacks or healing. I have also given my feedback previously for this.

I kid you not, I will basically not cast bloodclaws whenever possible. Its hit detection and uptime are far too whimsical now to merit using. Oh well, guess bite spam literally is the wave.

Running around with 20k stam just so I have decent scaling for healing… yeah, you’re crazy ZOS if you think imma waste that much stam on the skill just for it not to land with opponents directly in front of me.

Oh, and the gap closer that already struggles to function against anyone moving remotely fast (no snare, immob) also costs 3000 stam. Yeah, GL with that one.

Chrlynsch · August 7

Wuuffyy wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The cost of Pounce is far too high. This skill does not do enough to warrant that cost. The game forces the cast about 50% of the time for me when I don't want it. It chooses the wrong target frequently causing me to pounce on someone in the back of a group or behind me rather than cast Carnage on the target in front of me.
If the skill Pounce/Carnage hadn't been introduced in an incomplete buggy state, this would be a different conversation. I have already given my feedback about the dead zone where neither effect will cast.

The cost cost of Hircine's Fortitude is too high or the amount of healing that it provides. This heal costs 20% less than U49, but heals for 40% less than U49.

The cost of roar is too high, especially the defensive roar since I have to cast it 4 times to generate 4 stacks of blood hunger. The delay on the roar cast still needs to go away.

Blood claws does not connect to targets well enough to be a reliable source of blood hunger stacks or healing. I have also given my feedback previously for this.

I kid you not, I will basically not cast bloodclaws whenever possible. Its hit detection and uptime are far too whimsical now to merit using. Oh well, guess bite spam literally is the wave.

Running around with 20k stam just so I have decent scaling for healing… yeah, you’re crazy ZOS if you think imma waste that much stam on the skill just for it not to land with opponents directly in front of me.

Oh, and the gap closer that already struggles to function against anyone moving remotely fast (no snare, immov) also costs 3000 stam. Yeah, GL with that one.

I think the biggest cause for this is the increased size werewolf character model. Increasing the range of the WW LA/ claw an to 8m (Jabs range) would definitely help resolve this pain point especially in latency issue areas like pvp where this issue gets worse. Rip and tear at 7m is still fine because you are chomping so the shorter range makes sense and it activated reliability while in range.

Kazajhan · August 7

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I think the biggest cause for this is the increased size werewolf character model.

I think the increased size werewolf model has other effects. I love being this big but...last night, I got my head stuck in a column in Hel Ra Citadel. Was able to wiggle out somehow. Also, feet getting stuck on pebbles and stuff. I just think there are some assumptions about character box size that didn't anticipate werewolf.

"I don't think they had Wookiees in mind when they designed her, Chewie." -- Han, aboard the Imperial Shuttle

Majkiy · August 7

I am glad they nerfed WW this way.
They need to prioritize some sort of sustain now. Also I srsly don't like seeing ONE WW tanking 20 people in Cyro, being nearly immortal in BGs a on top of it having infinite amount of sustain which makes all this possible.

Firstmep · August 7

Removing class masteries would have made more sense both thematically and from a balance pov. Even if it didnt achieve the desired power level for ww, it would have made it easier to balance the spec going forward.
Conservation of energy is doing a lot of heavy lifting for ww carrying mag sustain that should be otherwise limited.

AdonisJorge · August 7

Wuuffyy wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

I was in a 27 minute duel last week with one of the strongest duelers in game. I was on Werewolf and they were on Dragon Knight. I was not going to kill this Dragon Knight. They had a good chance of killing me if I messed up though. They did 6k dps to me and I only did 3k to them. Nobody does 6k dps to my wolf, but this player did, while also being able to survive. My healing matched the incoming dps thankfully, but here's the part that isn't talked about. ~2600 HPS came from Blood Magic. The Sorcerer ability was my top healing source by a huge margin.

Blood Magic and Conservation of energy are the reason for U51 werewolf nerfs.

I'll say it one more time. Werewolf is being nerfed again because of items and abilities outside of the Werewolf kit.
@ZOS_Kevin, you're doing it wrong.

^^^^^^

I wanna do that too haha ^^^^

But yes- I ran my live build on PTS and received very similar performance BUT ONLY on my sorc with CoE. With CoE mastery, I had long duels that made it clear to me that whatever you were targeting was NOT properly adjusted while the overcorrection made everything else feel atrocious and had an absolutely unnecessarily impact on PvE, especially out of comp groups.

An improper punishment that heavily affects the floor/off-meta and 'forces' anyone remaining to switch to sorc instead which almost fully remediates the consequences using the CoE mastery, at least in a 1 v 1, is not sufficient.

One reminder, nerf the masteries/WW on PVP only please, ZOS need to keep up their promisses and use battle spirit as a solution to game imbalances

dark_hunterxmg · August 7

Majkiy wrote: »

I am glad they nerfed WW this way.
They need to prioritize some sort of sustain now. Also I srsly don't like seeing ONE WW tanking 20 people in Cyro, being nearly immortal in BGs a on top of it having infinite amount of sustain which makes all this possible.

A good player can do that with a DK, sorc, necro, etc. as well if the 20 they are fighting are lower skill players. People are just upset that some Werewolf players can do it now too.

Arunei · August 8

Majkiy wrote: »

I am glad they nerfed WW this way.
They need to prioritize some sort of sustain now. Also I srsly don't like seeing ONE WW tanking 20 people in Cyro, being nearly immortal in BGs a on top of it having infinite amount of sustain which makes all this possible.

It won't change anything except making all WWs run Sorc now for CoE.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 8

So basically, cost of all WW skills was increased across the board, to the point where it is the same or higher than before WW re-fresh, the dmg of all those skills remained the same - lower than before WW re-fresh, healing of those skill remained lower than before WW re-fresh and WW no longer has 30% max stamina bonus and unique dmg mitigation buff...

If PTS in its current state will go live, I can't see any one except from sorc pure-class being able to play WW (and I am not talking about PvP here). Every one else will have to use HA constantly and use 2 ulti-gen sets cuz you won't be able to sustain casting WW skills fast enough to get ulti & stay in WW form solo - even with Pack Leader.

dark_hunterxmg · August 8

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So basically, cost of all WW skills was increased across the board, to the point where it is the same or higher than before WW re-fresh, the dmg of all those skills remained the same - lower than before WW re-fresh, healing of those skill remained lower than before WW re-fresh and WW no longer has 30% max stamina bonus and unique dmg mitigation buff...

If PTS in its current state will go live, I can't see any one except from sorc pure-class being able to play WW (and I am not talking about PvP here). Every one else will have to use HA constantly and use 2 ulti-gen sets cuz you won't be able to sustain casting WW skills fast enough to get ulti & stay in WW form solo - even with Pack Leader.

What's worse is heavy attack doesn't generate enough ultimate to keep form as it is. You have to use skills. Heavy attack Werewolf doesn't exist anymore. That's another thing they took from us that hasn't been talked about as much. Not just fast heavy attacks, but the ability to use heavy attacks as a primary attack too.

The healing on Hircine's Fortitude is terrible. It's not like we have other options either. Human classes can slot additional or better burst Heals outside of their class kit, but also Aoe ground heals, heal over time, and cross heal each other. Rip and Tear will be the primary werewolf heal going forward.

AdonisJorge · August 8

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So basically, cost of all WW skills was increased across the board, to the point where it is the same or higher than before WW re-fresh, the dmg of all those skills remained the same - lower than before WW re-fresh, healing of those skill remained lower than before WW re-fresh and WW no longer has 30% max stamina bonus and unique dmg mitigation buff...

If PTS in its current state will go live, I can't see any one except from sorc pure-class being able to play WW (and I am not talking about PvP here). Every one else will have to use HA constantly and use 2 ulti-gen sets cuz you won't be able to sustain casting WW skills fast enough to get ulti & stay in WW form solo - even with Pack Leader.

Shapeshifter’s Chain, Hide of the Werewolf, Salvation, or all sustaining sets will be almost mandatory depending on the build

dark_hunterxmg · August 8

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So basically, cost of all WW skills was increased across the board, to the point where it is the same or higher than before WW re-fresh, the dmg of all those skills remained the same - lower than before WW re-fresh, healing of those skill remained lower than before WW re-fresh and WW no longer has 30% max stamina bonus and unique dmg mitigation buff...

If PTS in its current state will go live, I can't see any one except from sorc pure-class being able to play WW (and I am not talking about PvP here). Every one else will have to use HA constantly and use 2 ulti-gen sets cuz you won't be able to sustain casting WW skills fast enough to get ulti & stay in WW form solo - even with Pack Leader.

Shapeshifter’s Chain, Hide of the Werewolf, Salvation, or all sustaining sets will be almost mandatory depending on the build

That sounds like an awful build. Haha