New Community Input Dashboards

disky · August 5

Wonderful idea, thanks team.

Varana · August 5

Yeah, at the moment, it's not really problematic. I'm pretty sure there are more than 400 Polish players, that's not an issue.

It will become one if this feedback form gains any sort of popularity - which is, as I understand it, the intended way forward. Polling the playerbase about feedback doesn't make sense unless you hope to catch a significant portion of it.

DenverRalphy · August 5

I think there are too many assumptions going on in this thread. Another day, and the current state shows that the system is working itself out. I'm not at all surprised that the Polish localization suggestion is near the top (it no longer holds the actual top spot). But IMO, I don't believe it's current placement is tied to any concerted effort or campaigning. Instead I think it's there for the following reasons..

Localization is always a hot button issue. Word spreads in social communities. I can easily see this happening through natural attrition within the Polish speaking communities.
It's a very real concern, and a very reasonable request. There's a real possibility that players who aren't even impacted by the issue gave sympathy votes.
It was one of the very first suggestions submitted. Given the propensity for the playerbase to just clicky anything new and shiny, this particular suggestion got a lot of votes simply because it was there when the floodgates opened and everybody went clicky-clicky-clicky.

And now it seems to have plateaued a bit. All the usual hot button topics, and popular long standing requests are at the top of the list.

cookerski · August 5

Giving only option to upvote is manipulative. Yes, I know I can "downvote" in a comment, but we could also reverse it and make it downvote only and You could "upvote" in comments.
Make it both upvote and downvote or You simply waste time.

shadoza · August 5

Hamfast wrote: »

First off, I really like the idea of this set of Tools/Boards, whatever you want to call them.

As with any of these forums, the first entry will get more attention... It would be nice if we could decide if we wanted to see the newest, or the most popular entry (Default to new if you like, but allow us to order by popularity).

I also think it would be good if there could be a flag, as we have on these forums, to mark when an entry drew an official response, and perhaps one for a negative response from another member of the community (hopefully or requiring a comment on why it was not that good of an idea).

I agree regarding the negative response; however, I think it should not have a visible count. Allow the development team to see what people do not want in the game without demoralizing other voters or submissions.

shadoza · August 5

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

That’s a nice addition, but I do hope it will never be the case that only a few hundred players will ever be influencing the priorities of a game that supposedly millions of people play.

I feel that is already happening with the influence large guilds have over the development. On the official fora, in third party fora that the ESO employees frequent, and now on the tool.

Usureki · August 5

This is great, thanks!

GlandePas · August 5

Really like the platform, especially the fact that there is public visibility and searchability on pain points/feedback. Forum threads feel like they get lost once they are ignored. The number of bug reports where CMs are tagged 10 times and there isn’t even a "We’ve seen this and don’t think it’s an issue" or "We don’t have the time to look at this" is disheartening. In-game bug reports get even less feedback.

I also feel I’d like a downvote (with hidden count à la Youtube). There’s a number of things up there that I look at and frankly think "No thanks we don’t need that" or "That’s definitely low on the priorities IMO." Being able to easily communicate that without the (potential perceived) hostility or effort stemming from writing full-blown comments would be really nice.

BretonMage · August 5

Varana wrote: »

Yeah, at the moment, it's not really problematic. I

DenverRalphy wrote: »

And now it seems to have plateaued a bit. All the usual hot button topics, and popular long standing requests are at the top of the list.

I'm actually really taken aback that not more people are shocked about being able to cast multiple votes for the same suggestion. This is not a system I feel I can trust the results of, can you?

tomofhyrule · August 5

BretonMage wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Yeah, at the moment, it's not really problematic. I

DenverRalphy wrote: »

And now it seems to have plateaued a bit. All the usual hot button topics, and popular long standing requests are at the top of the list.

I'm actually really taken aback that not more people are shocked about being able to cast multiple votes for the same suggestion. This is not a system I feel I can trust the results of, can you?

But Jess has made it quite clear: the “number of upvotes” means absolutely nothing.

No, we can’t trust “only 724 people want the Class Refreshes, so obviously everyone else who plays wants DK to reign supreme and the other Classes to be trash.” But that’s a stupid way to look at this in the first place.

The team is looking at all of the things here. And they even said that some things they do or prioritize will be bases on ease - we all know that the Class Refreshes are gonna take like until 2030 in the first place, but that doesn’t mean the Art team should stop coming out with [insert other request here], even if it does have fewer people bumping it as an issue for them.

The only reason for the bumping is so we don’t have 15+ requests for the same thing. After all, how easy is it to parse the “5 Pain Points” thread for who all posted the same issue with different wording?

The Community Managers still are reading every submission. Even the joke ones like “Make Ayrenn Thicc” (which was posted there)

Yudo · August 5

Great initiative, I think these are a good complement to a large feedback system. But keep in mind this is external and it will be yet another slice of the pie. I can vote as many times as I want on the same thing thought? Lots of room for improvements.

DenverRalphy · August 5

BretonMage wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Yeah, at the moment, it's not really problematic. I

DenverRalphy wrote: »

And now it seems to have plateaued a bit. All the usual hot button topics, and popular long standing requests are at the top of the list.

I'm actually really taken aback that not more people are shocked about being able to cast multiple votes for the same suggestion. This is not a system I feel I can trust the results of, can you?

I doesn't matter. The results do not dictate the direction or roadmap of development. It's not a competition to be won. There's no winning, no losing. Nor is there any voting to determine as such. There's a difference between voting and upvoting. Voting is casting a ballot for a winner, and Upvoting just an indicator of support. The dashboard is using Upvoting.

The dashboard is a self populating list of issues for the devs to look at and see what players want to see developed or fixed. It doesn't matter if a submission has been fraudulently cheesed to have 100x the upvotes as the next submission down on a descending sort. That doesn't make the submission any more visible to the devs than a submission that has only the single upvote granted upon creation.

All it is, is one of multiple points of consideration when scheduling project development. It's not an outline nor map of progression.

[edit] grammar, clarity.

BretonMage · August 5

From Jessica's OP, she mentioned that the team wanted to understand "what you view as the highest priorities", and that the team was going to look at the upvotes and see "that measurement over time". So it does sound to me that they're looking out for popular suggestions, even if we know that at the end of the day, they will decide themselves on which ones are feasible/desirable.

Derpomancer · August 5

The Goliath and Overload no-ultiregen situation. (and vampire transformation)
Both ultimates are creative and has the opportunity for some skill expression BUT in content the complete inability to regain any ultimate when in Goliath form or Overload toggled on means that it is in most pve group situations bad and more importantly they will also feel bad.
The ultiregen is very high these days leading to fun group interactions to provide eachother with ultimate which the overload/goliath player cannot benefit from.
Unable to regain ANY ultimate at all for 20 seconds feels bad.

There are multiple options to balance this out, one alternative to no ulti-regen at all that several have proposed is a possible two-parter:
1. The player is unable to regain ultimate while in Goliath form or Overload toggled on whilst affected by Battle Spirit
2. (something like) major timidity on the player whilst in Goliath form or Overload toggled on.

This way the goliath/overload player still enjoys group providing some ultimate regen aspect of the group without excessive ultimate and for balancing this will also balance out the ultimates better for in PVP.

Varana · August 5

If votes don't matter, then why have them?
If they just wanted a list of topics, the upvote feature makes no sense.
I'm not saying that upvotes will decide anything, but their entire purpose is to gauge interest / urgency among those taking part.

It's also the main difference between this feedback system and all the others. If they only wanted a list of topics, there are about half a dozen ways they could get that - forum threads in general, the "Five ..." thread in particular, the ingame form, social media, whatever. If they're doing their job at least half-decently, there should be no shortage of ideas.
On the contrary, there are a metric ****ton of ideas, many of them bad, and most of them contradicting another idea. Which of those would actually be welcomed by players, is another question.

Which leads us back to the point that upvotes do matter in some form. If not, there's no reason to have them.

That said, again, it's not much of a problem at the moment with such a small user base. But it will become one should the system catch on.

Dax_Draconis · August 5

They need a downvote button even if the downvotes are hidden. If downvotes require a comment, then upvotes should require one too. It's only fair.

DenverRalphy · August 5

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

ESO_player123 · August 5

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

DenverRalphy · August 5

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Arunei · August 6

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Then as someone already asked, what's the point of being able to upvote? If they just wanted a list of things to draw on or think about, without any regard to how much the community seems to care or not care about any given thing, why have upvoting at all? If it really doesn't matter then there should be no ability to upvote things, it should just be a board where we can make and view submissions.

tomofhyrule · August 6

Arunei wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Then as someone already asked, what's the point of being able to upvote? If they just wanted a list of things to draw on or think about, without any regard to how much the community seems to care or not care about any given thing, why have upvoting at all? If it really doesn't matter then there should be no ability to upvote things, it should just be a board where we can make and view submissions.

Because being able to click a button for "ooh, I want this too!" is a lot more user friendly than trying to post your idea and getting "ERROR: THIS SUGGESTION IS ALREADY ON THE LIST SO WE'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO YOU!"

Again, they're not going to implement things in order of likes... which we're going to see when they implement something and people immediately run here to whine " but my suggestion has 3.5 more likes than the one they put in so ZOS is biased against me personally!"

All it is is a count of how many people also like that idea. And if you think of it as a popularity contest, you are totally free to blast your suggestion all over social media to drum up support for it. But it'll still get just as much attention from the devs either way.

jle30303 · August 6

The point of downvotes is to place importance on thinking that a submission is a *bad* idea: that it will be actively worse than "no change".

Which is a thing that does happen with some suggestions.

Dax_Draconis · August 6

Yeah, the upvoting makes it seem like a popularity contest for what an extremely small percentage of the player base wants.

ESO_player123 · August 6

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Then as someone already asked, what's the point of being able to upvote? If they just wanted a list of things to draw on or think about, without any regard to how much the community seems to care or not care about any given thing, why have upvoting at all? If it really doesn't matter then there should be no ability to upvote things, it should just be a board where we can make and view submissions.

Because being able to click a button for "ooh, I want this too!" is a lot more user friendly than trying to post your idea and getting "ERROR: THIS SUGGESTION IS ALREADY ON THE LIST SO WE'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO YOU!"

Again, they're not going to implement things in order of likes... which we're going to see when they implement something and people immediately run here to whine " but my suggestion has 3.5 more likes than the one they put in so ZOS is biased against me personally!"

All it is is a count of how many people also like that idea. And if you think of it as a popularity contest, you are totally free to blast your suggestion all over social media to drum up support for it. But it'll still get just as much attention from the devs either way.

That is true if it's one vote per person. I have no issue if someone goes to an ESO guild chat/discord and rally up the members. However, if I go and vote 300 times or rally people that do not even play ESO, does it really tell how many people liked that idea?

tomofhyrule · August 6

ESO_player123 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Then as someone already asked, what's the point of being able to upvote? If they just wanted a list of things to draw on or think about, without any regard to how much the community seems to care or not care about any given thing, why have upvoting at all? If it really doesn't matter then there should be no ability to upvote things, it should just be a board where we can make and view submissions.

Because being able to click a button for "ooh, I want this too!" is a lot more user friendly than trying to post your idea and getting "ERROR: THIS SUGGESTION IS ALREADY ON THE LIST SO WE'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO YOU!"

Again, they're not going to implement things in order of likes... which we're going to see when they implement something and people immediately run here to whine " but my suggestion has 3.5 more likes than the one they put in so ZOS is biased against me personally!"

All it is is a count of how many people also like that idea. And if you think of it as a popularity contest, you are totally free to blast your suggestion all over social media to drum up support for it. But it'll still get just as much attention from the devs either way.

That is true if it's one vote per person. I have no issue if someone goes to an ESO guild chat/discord and rally up the members. However, if I go and vote 300 times or rally people that do not even play ESO, does it really tell how many people liked that idea?

You are taking this much too seriously.

If someone wants to nolife and get their suggestion to the top of the chart, then let them. That will prove one of two things:

They really want it, and therefore would be willing to pay a lot of money if ZOS does it
This is a thing that could get people who don't play ESO to start playing ESO

And again, there is no correlation between the number of votes something has and whether it will be implemented, so it's a moot point anyway. After all, the #1 thing is "Finish the Class Reworks," which is already confirmed that it will happen, from multiple Community Managers, and it was even said that they have already told the team how important it is. So by all rights it shouldn't even be on this list in the first place (even though yes, I upvoted that too because I want them done), because it's already a thing they're doing. However, as we can see, it's not a fast process, so it's unlikely to be finished before 2028 in any case. More people upvoting it isn't going to make it go any faster.

EDIT: This is also ZOS using a template that exists rather than building a new tool. Is this "super fair and reliable?" No, it isn't. Does it serve its purpose? Yeah.
I'm sure if ZOS really wanted to, they could build a voting system like this from scratch and implement it in the game like people are suggesting to make it super fair and accurate. Of course, using dev time to do that may mean that none of the suggestions could be implemented until like 2032 at the earliest, but I'm sure you'd all be fine waiting for the Class Reworks to happen until then if it meant we got really reliable voting for features, right?

BretonMage · August 6

As long as ZOS is looking to these suggestion boards as a gauge of interest, we must limit to one vote per suggestion per person. Otherwise, dispense with voting entirely. It's better to have less, more accurate data, than completely misleading data.

I'm not even talking about the class refresh. We know that's important. I'm talking about all the more specific QoL suggestions or combat suggestions that may usually be garnering a handful of votes, but be pushed to a hundred votes by one person having the time and inclination.

Honestly, either require a simple login or use something else like IP address, which may not be perfect but is better than using cookies.

ESO_player123 · August 6

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Down votes are entirely unnecessary. It would only serve to devalue the purpose of the dashboard.

The entire point is to observe how many players place importance on a submission. The ratio of in-favor to not-in-favor has no factor in this data point.

[edit] As well, adding down votes would turn submissions into a contest of wills as opposing factions rally the troops to overcome each other. Completely invalidating the data they're looking to collect.

If the bolded part is correct then why people are claiming that votes do not matter and that the ability to cast as many votes as you want is fine.

What doesn't matter is where those accumulated upvotes places a submission on any perceived ranking ladder. Again... It's not a contest. It's not a competition.

Then as someone already asked, what's the point of being able to upvote? If they just wanted a list of things to draw on or think about, without any regard to how much the community seems to care or not care about any given thing, why have upvoting at all? If it really doesn't matter then there should be no ability to upvote things, it should just be a board where we can make and view submissions.

Because being able to click a button for "ooh, I want this too!" is a lot more user friendly than trying to post your idea and getting "ERROR: THIS SUGGESTION IS ALREADY ON THE LIST SO WE'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO YOU!"

Again, they're not going to implement things in order of likes... which we're going to see when they implement something and people immediately run here to whine " but my suggestion has 3.5 more likes than the one they put in so ZOS is biased against me personally!"

All it is is a count of how many people also like that idea. And if you think of it as a popularity contest, you are totally free to blast your suggestion all over social media to drum up support for it. But it'll still get just as much attention from the devs either way.

That is true if it's one vote per person. I have no issue if someone goes to an ESO guild chat/discord and rally up the members. However, if I go and vote 300 times or rally people that do not even play ESO, does it really tell how many people liked that idea?

You are taking this much too seriously.

If someone wants to nolife and get their suggestion to the top of the chart, then let them. That will prove one of two things:
They really want it, and therefore would be willing to pay a lot of money if ZOS does it

This is a thing that could get people who don't play ESO to start playing ESO

And again, there is no correlation between the number of votes something has and whether it will be implemented, so it's a moot point anyway. After all, the #1 thing is "Finish the Class Reworks," which is already confirmed that it will happen, from multiple Community Managers, and it was even said that they have already told the team how important it is. So by all rights it shouldn't even be on this list in the first place (even though yes, I upvoted that too because I want them done), because it's already a thing they're doing. However, as we can see, it's not a fast process, so it's unlikely to be finished before 2028 in any case. More people upvoting it isn't going to make it go any faster.

EDIT: This is also ZOS using a template that exists rather than building a new tool. Is this "super fair and reliable?" No, it isn't. Does it serve its purpose? Yeah.
I'm sure if ZOS really wanted to, they could build a voting system like this from scratch and implement it in the game like people are suggesting to make it super fair and accurate. Of course, using dev time to do that may mean that none of the suggestions could be implemented until like 2032 at the earliest, but I'm sure you'd all be fine waiting for the Class Reworks to happen until then if it meant we got really reliable voting for features, right?

I'm not taking is too seriously. I simply do not see the logic in this: what is the purpose of this voting if it means absolutely nothing. Regarless, I exptressed my opinion about this (as I've seen how this did not work in Runescape), and it's not going to change. I'll avoid voting since it's pointless.

spartaxoxo · August 6

The devs are not treating it as a contest where the winning idea gets the prize. But they are treating is a barometer that is supposed to act like a representative sample of what the playerbase wants.

If they're going to treat like a representative sample, then they should take actions to ensure that it actually is one. That's all I have been trying to convey.

If they're going to treat it a petition system where they can see what some players might like but will not use it to determine how popular an idea is, then the way it works is fine.

I'm under no delusion that the most popular idea will automatically get implemented. They may also see an idea with very few likes but would be low cost but high impact and decide to do it. But they should understand that this is not a representative sample because this is not the proper methodology for one.

It's a petition system not a temperature checker. I'm cool with either but it was important to me that the data is viewed with a good lense. Either system is fine but it's important you always keep in mind the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen methods. Otherwise you may draw inaccurate conclusions and that would be a shame since it this new system is a good idea.

A good example of a company not considering this type of thing is what happened to Reader's Digest. They polled their readers about who would win a presidential election without considering that the act of reading their magazine may be a biasing factor. And then got embarrassed when they called the wrong candidate would win by a lot.

It's never a bad thing to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of a chosen system. This doesn't make the players interacting with the system as it is designed bad actors. The players who have shared links have done absolutely nothing wrong. They are using the system the way it is intentionally designed. They are acting reasonably and in good faith. I'm not trying to say players are doing anything wrong simply sharing what I have learned as someone who's had to take a class on surveys.

I feel like I wasn't clear enough about this before and it's lead to some incorrect interpretations. I regret that and I'm sorry.

Wolfshade · August 6

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You are taking this much too seriously.

It just works, right?

Umbracat449 · August 6

Outliers of several hundred votes for something reasonably niche will be pretty obvious. Better off to stay in the bellcurve of a decent idea that's pretty popular, than end up several points out, suspiciously popular.

I think this is a useful way to flush out good ideas liked by a bunch of people- at this stage- than to think this is how the top ten changes are going to be decided.

It's not a survey, it's not a representative sample (!! How even could it be?), it's not voting for the award winner, it's a way to capture and store ideas better than the thread in this forum.

The devs will then kick the ideas around themselves, and they'll decide what happens next.

I know this game is an mmo full of mmo types but- you're all over thinking it.