PVP vs PVE and all the Nerfs

LordDragonSlayer · August 5

This is going to spark some outrage but so be it. I do not care what the PVP community says, every freaking nerf that comes into the game is a direct result of the PVP community complaining about something. All of these nerfs have major impacts on the PVE community but we always adapt. So, why can't the PVP community learn to adapt?

I am not sure why every game developer wants to incorporate both PVE and PVP into one game and then not treat them as separate games within the main game. The vast majority of the players in almost every PVE/PVP game is PVE. PVE is where the money is which is why they all want the PVE community but then they do a terrible job of implementing PVE type events/storylines/updates/quests, etc. The PVE community is fickle and If you make them mad, they leave never to return or return sporadically. So, it is in the game developers best interest for the for long term to really focus on the PVE community but that is not what is done in this game or in most games.

The game developers for this game focus mostly on the PVP community. Yeah there will be a lot of you who disagree because some things have gone on for so long but remember their priority is to make money and that money comes from the crown store and the PVE community. So while the PVE side of implementation is terrible, it is where they have to sort of focus just appease us but make no mistake, their main focus is has and always will be PVP.

Most PVEers hate PVP and nothing a game developer does can force the PVE community to PVP. However, most game developers want the end game to be PVP in a PVE/PVP world because then they do not have to develop much content. They just need to provide a place for people to battle. With that said, this always fails because as mentioned above most players are PVE and you will never force PVEers to PVP. Sure some PVEers may try it for a time and a very small percentage may like it but those numbers do not justify the actions.

Do I PVP, yes but only to get the rewards. Once I am done for that event/have all the rewards, I am done with PVP. I really wish ZOS would stop hiding the rewards behind PVP walls because I would never do another BG/IC /Crodiil again. I mostly do 4v4 BGs and I can tell you that most people in there have no sense of strategy. Example, you are up by a lot of points in a Deathmatch and you go over to the other where they have a slight advantage and just die multiple times and end up losing the match. Do I go, no. I typically tell the people to back off and let them come to us because we are up on points but do they listen, no, they just run over and die and repeat.

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

Not sure why Templars and some of the others were nerfed but whatever. These nerfs do not inspire me to go back and do more PVP but the exact opposite.

You cannot nerf a good/great player who understands the mechanics of the game down to a I suck/Okay level player. The good/great player will always adapt and overcome the situation.

One last thing, ZOS please play the game you have developed versus relying upon a spreadsheet or spreadsheets, simulation tools, and the community as your testers. The community as testers is an awful idea because once they figure that out, they will intentionally do things to get the game to where they want it to be. Spreadsheets and Simulators are also terrible because they do not account for the human element.

Major_Mangle · August 5

Ye except the overwhelming majority of balance changes done to PvE has been done because of how skills, sets etc has interacted in PvE, not PvP. Sure it happens on rare occasions that skills that overperform in PvP affects its use in PvE, but saying PvP is responsible for most PvE nerfs is just pure propaganda and misinformation.

Usureki · August 5

Bro.. It's like we are living on a different planet

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

So, why can't the PVP community learn to adapt?

What do you think the PvP community is forced to do with each and every update ESO publishes? On the contrary, PvP players have to adapt to the changes much better, because while as a PvE player you need a fraction of the highest DPS available in the game and don't even have to reach it in trials, in PvP if the meta changes, you certainly have to face it in everyday life and adapt your own build accordingly.

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

The game developers for this game focus mostly on the PVP community.

You are factually wrong, the amount of PvE related content outweights the PvP related contents by far. I invite you to read the patch notes of different updates and educate yourself.

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Sure some PVEers may try it for a time and a very small percentage may like it but those numbers do not justify the actions.

What is your source on this? Or do you just feel like this is true? Since I do both PvP and PvE I surely know that your reasoning would not apply to me.

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

I do agree that the nerfs planned for 51 go way too far, especially when comparing WW to DK, but I find it rather funny, that you point out that a build have to make sacrifices in order to gain something. I think that should be the baseline and most issues of the balance in this game come from multi-dimensional building, like health-based shielding and healing or built-in sustain options.

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

So you are generalizing that anyone pointing out the clearly broken implementation of the top 3 classes (that by chance you also happened to clearly identify, what a coincidence) are running crappy builds? Well.. screw you good sir or madame, I kinda refuse your outright baseless insult. Just before seeing your ragebait post I had a discussion about class balance with a DK doing 40+ kills in a BG, and you know what? They couldn't find the singlest error in my build and at the end proposed "to just play DK instead of wasting time".

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

You cannot nerf a good/great player who understands the mechanics of the game down to a I suck/Okay level player. The good/great player will always adapt and overcome the situation.

And wouldn't you find it rather interesting that most "good" players just happen to play the same 3 setups? Yeeeea, that is probably by chance. Also it is just an accidental fact that if you search for "broken builds" or "op build" in any related media, you will find those 3 setups 90% of the time. But surely, those good players are all really skilled. Carried by the class? Bah! Never heard of that!

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

One last thing, ZOS please play the game you have developed versus relying upon a spreadsheet or spreadsheets, simulation tools, and the community as your testers. The community as testers is an awful idea because once they figure that out, they will intentionally do things to get the game to where they want it to be. Spreadsheets and Simulators are also terrible because they do not account for the human element.

This is one of the worst advice I've ever read. You are recommending the entity that creates the thing I'm paying for should not listen to my feedback. You are advising ZOS to just shut down bro.

ApoAlaia · August 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Ye except the overwhelming majority of balance changes done to PvE has been done because of how skills, sets etc has interacted in PvE, not PvP. Sure it happens on rare occasions that skills that overperform in PvP affects its use in PvE, but saying PvP is responsible for most PvE nerfs is just pure propaganda and misinformation.

The changes to Werewolf in U51 definitely were because of how 'oppressive' Werewolf is in PvE.

I have it on good authority that Taleria has filed a formal complaint about it and Bahsei just won't shut up thread after thread about how '''unfair''' Werewolves feel in combat and why can't she be a DK instead of a Necro.

As a matter of fact I opened a thread about collisions in a house and Ansuul could not help but pop in and drop a but DK and WW in PvE tho...

Wuuffyy · August 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Ye except the overwhelming majority of balance changes done to PvE has been done because of how skills, sets etc has interacted in PvE, not PvP. Sure it happens on rare occasions that skills that overperform in PvP affects its use in PvE, but saying PvP is responsible for most PvE nerfs is just pure propaganda and misinformation.

They cited they were happy with the PvE state of werewolf and made changes (nerfs) for PvP that affected PvE anyway:

All of this when there are still other ways to handle the desired sustain nerfs for PvP (CoE mastery for example comes to mind, which still remains and further pidgeonholes werewolves to sorc) and also they have the ability to separate ‘in PvP’ tooltips with ‘while under the effects of battle spirit’ regardless.

In fact, they hyped up ability to use ‘battle spirit’ changes in general and then did this anyway. What a sorry state of balancing things.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 5

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

ApoAlaia · August 5

On topic:

https://elderscrollsonline-feedback.featureupvote.com/suggestions/724369/separate-pvp-and-pve-balance-through-battle-spirit

ApoAlaia · August 5

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

XVestigeXx · August 5

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

This is going to spark some outrage but so be it. I do not care what the PVP community says, every freaking nerf that comes into the game is a direct result of the PVP community complaining about something. All of these nerfs have major impacts on the PVE community but we always adapt. So, why can't the PVP community learn to adapt?

I am not sure why every game developer wants to incorporate both PVE and PVP into one game and then not treat them as separate games within the main game. The vast majority of the players in almost every PVE/PVP game is PVE. PVE is where the money is which is why they all want the PVE community but then they do a terrible job of implementing PVE type events/storylines/updates/quests, etc. The PVE community is fickle and If you make them mad, they leave never to return or return sporadically. So, it is in the game developers best interest for the for long term to really focus on the PVE community but that is not what is done in this game or in most games.

The game developers for this game focus mostly on the PVP community. Yeah there will be a lot of you who disagree because some things have gone on for so long but remember their priority is to make money and that money comes from the crown store and the PVE community. So while the PVE side of implementation is terrible, it is where they have to sort of focus just appease us but make no mistake, their main focus is has and always will be PVP.

Most PVEers hate PVP and nothing a game developer does can force the PVE community to PVP. However, most game developers want the end game to be PVP in a PVE/PVP world because then they do not have to develop much content. They just need to provide a place for people to battle. With that said, this always fails because as mentioned above most players are PVE and you will never force PVEers to PVP. Sure some PVEers may try it for a time and a very small percentage may like it but those numbers do not justify the actions.

Do I PVP, yes but only to get the rewards. Once I am done for that event/have all the rewards, I am done with PVP. I really wish ZOS would stop hiding the rewards behind PVP walls because I would never do another BG/IC /Crodiil again. I mostly do 4v4 BGs and I can tell you that most people in there have no sense of strategy. Example, you are up by a lot of points in a Deathmatch and you go over to the other where they have a slight advantage and just die multiple times and end up losing the match. Do I go, no. I typically tell the people to back off and let them come to us because we are up on points but do they listen, no, they just run over and die and repeat.

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

Not sure why Templars and some of the others were nerfed but whatever. These nerfs do not inspire me to go back and do more PVP but the exact opposite.

You cannot nerf a good/great player who understands the mechanics of the game down to a I suck/Okay level player. The good/great player will always adapt and overcome the situation.

One last thing, ZOS please play the game you have developed versus relying upon a spreadsheet or spreadsheets, simulation tools, and the community as your testers. The community as testers is an awful idea because once they figure that out, they will intentionally do things to get the game to where they want it to be. Spreadsheets and Simulators are also terrible because they do not account for the human element.

this is a toxic post that knows nothing about pvp and balance at all. saying we need to learn to adapt is like saying Japan just needed to learn to adapt to nuclear bombs in WW2. Don't like it? tell zos to make more battle spirit targeted changes then

Radiate77 · August 5

If you want a PvE only game, there are several much better options.

Vaqual · August 5

True, some complaints are petty and uninformed. But to pretend that all nerfs are based on imaginary PvP issues is just denying reality. Your text doesn't really give enough of a basis for combat related arguments, so this will be the best I can do in terms of outrage.

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

Adapt to what exactly? Having numerically inferior abilities and passives across the board isn't something you can just compensate for with limited build opportunities without making painful compromises. Whether you can still beat a player with heavy advantages isn't the question. The core issue is that players do not want to play a game where competition isn't following a logical and consequent standard for player power. That is especially problematic in an RPG, because offering multiple different avenues to play a game is actually a crucial aspect for roleplaying games. This is true for PvP competition, but also for performance in PvE encounters. Because realistically speaking, the ratio between average player power and PvE encounter requirements has drastically shifted in favor of players throughout the last years. Are PvPers also to blame for that?

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

This is the part where you could have substantial debate, with actual arguments. There are however already more than enough threads and discussions about the topic. Suffice it to say that these changes were not in fact what a majority of PvP players had demanded. Out of all possible approaches to attenuate WW power, this is the one ZOS chose. If you decide that you want to hate other players for this, this is up to you. I can only tell you that I find it unreasonable.

I'd venture to say that the beam meta has done more to alienate PvE players than any PvP related change ever could have. Beating an encounter and feeling accomplished about it are two different things. And that is only a single instance that proves combat balance between player classes is just as important for PvE as it for PvP (explicity not saying balance between player power and encounter difficulty), supported by countless posts and videos. Whether that balance is maintained through nerfs or buffs is completely arbitrary as long as the resulting power level makes sense for the game.

Ironically, you came here to vent by making an emotional post and basically ended up doing what you criticize the PvP community for.

ApoAlaia · August 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you want a PvE only game, there are several much better options.

That works both ways tho so not sure how this argument is relevant.

Radiate77 · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you want a PvE only game, there are several much better options.

That works both ways tho so not sure how this argument is relevant.

I’m not making a thread asking for the developers to ignore PvE balance, so it’s quite relevant.

ApoAlaia · August 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you want a PvE only game, there are several much better options.

That works both ways tho so not sure how this argument is relevant.

I’m not making a thread asking for the developers to ignore PvE balance, so it’s quite relevant.

Personally I don't want a PvE only game, I'm fine with PvP existing.

However I would much prefer if they were balanced completely separately. If that means that I must lose access to the PvP sets in PvE for instance I'm OK with that.

By their own admission the devs have expressed how difficult is to balance both aspects of the game together so let's just... stop doing that.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change while blaming PvP.

ApoAlaia · August 5

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change as well.

I never used HA in PvP.

Doors can't be targeted with HAs and before Vengeance there was no build or playstyle that would avail me more than 3GCDs (if the opponent made a mistake, otherwise it was 1-2 GCDs) outside good old Ravenwatch anyway.

Alas there was a relentless campaign against lightning HAs in PvP, first with the supporting sets (success, they were all nerfed) then with the channel itself which was completely neutered and finally with the interaction of the 'old' tri-focus with NPCs. Pretending that this had no bearing on the 'rework' is disingenuous at best.

However I always found it difficult to marry the fact that PvP players use 'situational awareness' as a mantra with having to be aware of the position of NPCs in relation to the players being something they'd just not suffer.

BigPlays420 · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change as well.

I never used HA in PvP.

Doors can't be targeted with HAs and before Vengeance there was no build or playstyle that would avail me more than 3GCDs (if the opponent made a mistake, otherwise it was 1-2 GCDs) outside good old Ravenwatch anyway.

Alas there was a relentless campaign against lightning HAs in PvP, first with the supporting sets (success, they were all nerfed) then with the channel itself which was completely neutered and finally with the interaction of the 'old' tri-focus with NPCs. Pretending that this had no bearing on the 'rework' is disingenuous at best.

However I always found it difficult to marry the fact that PvP players use 'situational awareness' as a mantra with having to be aware of the position of NPCs in relation to the players being something they'd just not suffer.

The fact that you’re a heavy attack and werewolf player tells me everything I need to know about you.

ApoAlaia · August 5

BigPlays420 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change as well.

I never used HA in PvP.

Doors can't be targeted with HAs and before Vengeance there was no build or playstyle that would avail me more than 3GCDs (if the opponent made a mistake, otherwise it was 1-2 GCDs) outside good old Ravenwatch anyway.

Alas there was a relentless campaign against lightning HAs in PvP, first with the supporting sets (success, they were all nerfed) then with the channel itself which was completely neutered and finally with the interaction of the 'old' tri-focus with NPCs. Pretending that this had no bearing on the 'rework' is disingenuous at best.

However I always found it difficult to marry the fact that PvP players use 'situational awareness' as a mantra with having to be aware of the position of NPCs in relation to the players being something they'd just not suffer.

The fact that you’re a heavy attack and werewolf player tells me everything I need to know about you.

I'm worse. Much worse. Much much worse.

I play arcanist mostly. And before U35 I used to play stamplar (you know, life in the ez lane...).

I only play HA when I have to rely on my feet to do so.

Haven't really had a chance to play WW in actual organised group content yet. I had a bit of fun with it in the Night Market but that's it.

(OK, it wasn't a bit, I actually had a lot of fun with WW in the Night Market but don't tell anyone, the fun police is always listening).

Udrath · August 5

If PVE players did 1 million damage, 0 resource cost and then there was nerf that caused them to do 990k and abilities costing 100 there would be a huge amount of complaints. Never really see threads about trials being too hard or this boss is impossible. Not seeing a lot about random veteran dungeons having a 1 hour que as a dps, prestige mode offering nothing of value. Yet damage, resource cost, etc are more important to PvE enjoyment.

FENGRUSH · August 5

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

This is going to spark some outrage but so be it. I do not care what the PVP community says, every freaking nerf that comes into the game is a direct result of the PVP community complaining about something. All of these nerfs have major impacts on the PVE community but we always adapt. So, why can't the PVP community learn to adapt?

I am not sure why every game developer wants to incorporate both PVE and PVP into one game and then not treat them as separate games within the main game. The vast majority of the players in almost every PVE/PVP game is PVE. PVE is where the money is which is why they all want the PVE community but then they do a terrible job of implementing PVE type events/storylines/updates/quests, etc. The PVE community is fickle and If you make them mad, they leave never to return or return sporadically. So, it is in the game developers best interest for the for long term to really focus on the PVE community but that is not what is done in this game or in most games.

The game developers for this game focus mostly on the PVP community. Yeah there will be a lot of you who disagree because some things have gone on for so long but remember their priority is to make money and that money comes from the crown store and the PVE community. So while the PVE side of implementation is terrible, it is where they have to sort of focus just appease us but make no mistake, their main focus is has and always will be PVP.

Most PVEers hate PVP and nothing a game developer does can force the PVE community to PVP. However, most game developers want the end game to be PVP in a PVE/PVP world because then they do not have to develop much content. They just need to provide a place for people to battle. With that said, this always fails because as mentioned above most players are PVE and you will never force PVEers to PVP. Sure some PVEers may try it for a time and a very small percentage may like it but those numbers do not justify the actions.

Do I PVP, yes but only to get the rewards. Once I am done for that event/have all the rewards, I am done with PVP. I really wish ZOS would stop hiding the rewards behind PVP walls because I would never do another BG/IC /Crodiil again. I mostly do 4v4 BGs and I can tell you that most people in there have no sense of strategy. Example, you are up by a lot of points in a Deathmatch and you go over to the other where they have a slight advantage and just die multiple times and end up losing the match. Do I go, no. I typically tell the people to back off and let them come to us because we are up on points but do they listen, no, they just run over and die and repeat.

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

Not sure why Templars and some of the others were nerfed but whatever. These nerfs do not inspire me to go back and do more PVP but the exact opposite.

You cannot nerf a good/great player who understands the mechanics of the game down to a I suck/Okay level player. The good/great player will always adapt and overcome the situation.

One last thing, ZOS please play the game you have developed versus relying upon a spreadsheet or spreadsheets, simulation tools, and the community as your testers. The community as testers is an awful idea because once they figure that out, they will intentionally do things to get the game to where they want it to be. Spreadsheets and Simulators are also terrible because they do not account for the human element.

This guy stinks. Boo this man.

Firstmep · August 5

5/10. You made the rage bait a bit too obvious.

BigPlays420 · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

BigPlays420 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change as well.

I never used HA in PvP.

Doors can't be targeted with HAs and before Vengeance there was no build or playstyle that would avail me more than 3GCDs (if the opponent made a mistake, otherwise it was 1-2 GCDs) outside good old Ravenwatch anyway.

Alas there was a relentless campaign against lightning HAs in PvP, first with the supporting sets (success, they were all nerfed) then with the channel itself which was completely neutered and finally with the interaction of the 'old' tri-focus with NPCs. Pretending that this had no bearing on the 'rework' is disingenuous at best.

However I always found it difficult to marry the fact that PvP players use 'situational awareness' as a mantra with having to be aware of the position of NPCs in relation to the players being something they'd just not suffer.

The fact that you’re a heavy attack and werewolf player tells me everything I need to know about you.

I'm worse. Much worse. Much much worse.

I play arcanist mostly. And before U35 I used to play stamplar (you know, life in the ez lane...).

I only play HA when I have to rely on my feet to do so.

Haven't really had a chance to play WW in actual organised group content yet. I had a bit of fun with it in the Night Market but that's it.

(OK, it wasn't a bit, I actually had a lot of fun with WW in the Night Market but don't tell anyone, the fun police is always listening).

And with this much self-awareness, you’re telling PvPers they just need to adapt and that it’s their fault? Do you not see the irony?

ApoAlaia · August 5

BigPlays420 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

BigPlays420 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You only see it going one way because you're choosing to see it go one way.

Do you remember Stalking Blastbones? I sure do, even have the guild tag for it. It was a staple of PvP Necro, and was what kept Necro competitive in PvP after the initial gutting of Harmony.

Then, one day, ZOS decided to completely remove that skill from the game, replacing it with a boring +15% damage buff citing "wanting to provide an easier rotation for PvE players".

That cratered Necro's viability in PvP for years. The class is only just now dragging itself up out of the depths of mediocrity, and oh look, it's actually because of PvE changes that the class is decent again.

And do you remember Tri-Focus before it was wrecked because staying outside the 5M radius of NPCs in PvP - aka, situational awareness - was an ask too far?

Because I remember you almost throwing a street party about it and I also remember having to bite my tongue hard when the shoe landed on the other foot and they 'reworked' necro blastbones.

Tri-Focus wasn't changed due to PvP, it was changed to balance out Lightning Staves vs other weapons. ZOS said as much in the PTS 39 notes.

Since this passive is meant to help reward fully charged Heavy Attacks, we've reigned in some of the effects with Lightning Staves to make them more in line with other weapons while retaining their unique gameplay with builds that go all in on them. In addition, we've tried to sweeten the rewards for the other two staff types that in general don't Heavy Attack as much.

By all means though, defend an unblockable, undodgeable one-shot that happened to get removed with this PvE change as well.

I never used HA in PvP.

Doors can't be targeted with HAs and before Vengeance there was no build or playstyle that would avail me more than 3GCDs (if the opponent made a mistake, otherwise it was 1-2 GCDs) outside good old Ravenwatch anyway.

Alas there was a relentless campaign against lightning HAs in PvP, first with the supporting sets (success, they were all nerfed) then with the channel itself which was completely neutered and finally with the interaction of the 'old' tri-focus with NPCs. Pretending that this had no bearing on the 'rework' is disingenuous at best.

However I always found it difficult to marry the fact that PvP players use 'situational awareness' as a mantra with having to be aware of the position of NPCs in relation to the players being something they'd just not suffer.

The fact that you’re a heavy attack and werewolf player tells me everything I need to know about you.

I'm worse. Much worse. Much much worse.

I play arcanist mostly. And before U35 I used to play stamplar (you know, life in the ez lane...).

I only play HA when I have to rely on my feet to do so.

Haven't really had a chance to play WW in actual organised group content yet. I had a bit of fun with it in the Night Market but that's it.

(OK, it wasn't a bit, I actually had a lot of fun with WW in the Night Market but don't tell anyone, the fun police is always listening).

And with this much self-awareness, you’re telling PvPers they just need to adapt and that it’s their fault? Do you not see the irony?

I am a bit lost now... where did I say such thing? not bait, genuinely don't know where this came from.

Is this to do with bringing up the subject of situational awareness?

EDIT: If is about my comment regarding the WW changes in U51 I think is beyond any shadow of doubt that the changes are overwhelmingly due to PvP. In this case you have the developer comment to refer to.

If is about my comment about tri-focus, I stand by my arguments as presented.

If you'd like we can also talk about what happened to WW after Greymoor, where it went from 'viable' (not meta, not ubiquitous, just fun and viable in some content) to 'meme' one heavy handed blow at a time where it remained for years, why did this happen and why I would very much like for it not to happen a second time.

Taarente · August 5

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

This is going to spark some outrage but so be it. I do not care what the PVP community says, every freaking nerf that comes into the game is a direct result of the PVP community complaining about something. All of these nerfs have major impacts on the PVE community but we always adapt. So, why can't the PVP community learn to adapt?

I am not sure why every game developer wants to incorporate both PVE and PVP into one game and then not treat them as separate games within the main game. The vast majority of the players in almost every PVE/PVP game is PVE. PVE is where the money is which is why they all want the PVE community but then they do a terrible job of implementing PVE type events/storylines/updates/quests, etc. The PVE community is fickle and If you make them mad, they leave never to return or return sporadically. So, it is in the game developers best interest for the for long term to really focus on the PVE community but that is not what is done in this game or in most games.

The game developers for this game focus mostly on the PVP community. Yeah there will be a lot of you who disagree because some things have gone on for so long but remember their priority is to make money and that money comes from the crown store and the PVE community. So while the PVE side of implementation is terrible, it is where they have to sort of focus just appease us but make no mistake, their main focus is has and always will be PVP.

Most PVEers hate PVP and nothing a game developer does can force the PVE community to PVP. However, most game developers want the end game to be PVP in a PVE/PVP world because then they do not have to develop much content. They just need to provide a place for people to battle. With that said, this always fails because as mentioned above most players are PVE and you will never force PVEers to PVP. Sure some PVEers may try it for a time and a very small percentage may like it but those numbers do not justify the actions.

Do I PVP, yes but only to get the rewards. Once I am done for that event/have all the rewards, I am done with PVP. I really wish ZOS would stop hiding the rewards behind PVP walls because I would never do another BG/IC /Crodiil again. I mostly do 4v4 BGs and I can tell you that most people in there have no sense of strategy. Example, you are up by a lot of points in a Deathmatch and you go over to the other where they have a slight advantage and just die multiple times and end up losing the match. Do I go, no. I typically tell the people to back off and let them come to us because we are up on points but do they listen, no, they just run over and die and repeat.

Now for the nerfs. WWs did not need nerfs or increased costs. WWs already have to maintain high health recovery, generating Fury, and eat to maintain their WW form. Now they will also have to spec into Mag, Mag Recovery, Stam, and Stamina Recovery. Please tell me how this is balanced? WWs do not have a burst damage and are really limited to a few sets to put out decent damage. They have crappy armor and lose their humanoid abilities. Is ZOS going to increase their natural armor or help them CC or provide them something that helps out the WW because I if not, then I predict this will be a dead class. However, I doubt they will do anything to help the WW but instead nerf it into the ground all the while keeping the DK at doing lots of burst damage.

To all of those that are complaining about WWs, and Sorcs, and DKs, etc you just do not want to adapt but rather you want to ZOS to nerf them down so you can continue playing your crappy builds and yes I called them crappy. Why? Because so many people go into a PVP area with PVE gear with PVE traits, PVE enchants, PVE skills and expect to win at PVP.

Not sure why Templars and some of the others were nerfed but whatever. These nerfs do not inspire me to go back and do more PVP but the exact opposite.

You cannot nerf a good/great player who understands the mechanics of the game down to a I suck/Okay level player. The good/great player will always adapt and overcome the situation.

One last thing, ZOS please play the game you have developed versus relying upon a spreadsheet or spreadsheets, simulation tools, and the community as your testers. The community as testers is an awful idea because once they figure that out, they will intentionally do things to get the game to where they want it to be. Spreadsheets and Simulators are also terrible because they do not account for the human element.

A remarkably long route to “don’t nerf my werewolf.”

AdonisJorge · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

On topic:

https://elderscrollsonline-feedback.featureupvote.com/suggestions/724369/separate-pvp-and-pve-balance-through-battle-spirit

Just voted, and good idea

Luneca · August 5

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you want a PvE only game, there are several much better options.

That works both ways tho so not sure how this argument is relevant.

I’m not making a thread asking for the developers to ignore PvE balance, so it’s quite relevant.

Personally I don't want a PvE only game, I'm fine with PvP existing.

However I would much prefer if they were balanced completely separately. If that means that I must lose access to the PvP sets in PvE for instance I'm OK with that.

By their own admission the devs have expressed how difficult is to balance both aspects of the game together so let's just... stop doing that.

It's only difficult because ZOS does not look at balance from a systemic point of view from the start, which is why we have changes that should never make it to live come out. Like WW skills costing next to nothing.

Stamicka · August 5

It goes both ways and I’d like to see PvP and PvE hard separated because of this. It’s been something I’ve been arguing for for a long time now.

That being said, so many of PvPs biggest problems come from PvE balancing. ZOS really showed their hand with update 35 when they stated that they wanted to bring the damage at the low end up to boost PvE participation rates. ZOS has been on a mission for a long time now to make higher damage in PvE easier to achieve so that people can more easily clear content.

They’ve been pretty successful with their goal , but they’ve achieved it by adding damage through low effort high reward sources.

A lot of things about balance start to make sense when you think of it this way. So much of the damage inflation in PvE comes from the constant addition and buffing of group support sets and a buffing of Major/Minor Buffs. Individual damage isn’t nearly as inflated as group damage when you compare it to where it was 8 years ago or so.

Unfortunately this is the very thing that buffs ball groups. You can get so much extra damage, sustain, and tankiness when you coordinate sets in a PvP group. These sets often have little to no drawbacks and they are easy to proc. Even small organized groups can achieve an extra 1000+ extra weapon/spell damage pretty easily on top of many other buffs. It’s a huge issue.

Another big issue is status effects and heavy attack builds. Status effects are literally free damage. They help in inflating PvE parses by a lot (with no extra effort), but they also give free effortless damage in PvP too. We saw this in its most extreme form with the status effect Werewolves. I also notice how much damage someone who simply lightning staff heavy attacks me can do now in PvP. It used to negligible damage, but now it puts out a lot of pressure despite its little effort.

I’m not personally a fan of how much of a joke PvE has become with the inflated damage, but I understand wanting to boost participation rates. If ZOS wants to continue down this path of making damage in PvE higher, they need to hard separate PvE and PvP. Those design philosophies do not mix well AT ALL.

As of right now PvP is in a spot where damage feels simultaneously too high and too low. The problem is that the damage is in the wrong places. Damage in PvP belongs on burst skills, but instead so much of it comes from procs, status effects, and DoTs. Players need to be more directly responsible for the damage they deal in PvP.

BahometZ · August 6

The forum is a PvP enabled zone so stands to reason OP got the reaction they did.
Truth is most pve players arent as engaged with the game as pvp players. Pvpers have to work harder on their build and understanding of stats/strats to survive against other players. They ought to know the game pretty well. They are also cursed with gitguditis, which makes them unloveable. They will come hurtling into the forum like a meteor to whinge about anything 2.37% out of balance.

OP, you've come here with vibes only. You won't win the argument here, they've got notepads filled with natch potes, dev comments underlined in red and laundry lists of perceived grudges like a shooter's manifesto. They've got crowded whiteboards and red string connecting photos of ufos with alessia bridge, and they will talk you into the ground about anecdotal experiences that prove them right.

Just mald and huff, then go about your day.

Radiate77 · August 6

BahometZ wrote: »

The forum is a PvP enabled zone so stands to reason OP got the reaction they did.
Truth is most pve players arent as engaged with the game as pvp players. Pvpers have to work harder on their build and understanding of stats/strats to survive against other players. They ought to know the game pretty well. They are also cursed with gitguditis, which makes them unloveable. They will come hurtling into the forum like a meteor to whinge about anything 2.37% out of balance.

OP, you've come here with vibes only. You won't win the argument here, they've got notepads filled with natch potes, dev comments underlined in red and laundry lists of perceived grudges like a shooter's manifesto. They've got crowded whiteboards and red string connecting photos of ufos with alessia bridge, and they will talk you into the ground about anecdotal experiences that prove them right.

Just mald and huff, then go about your day.

I wish I could give you two Awesomes for making me burst out laughing at work in the middle of a meeting. lmao

Usureki · August 6

BahometZ wrote: »

The forum is a PvP enabled zone so stands to reason OP got the reaction they did.
Truth is most pve players arent as engaged with the game as pvp players. Pvpers have to work harder on their build and understanding of stats/strats to survive against other players. They ought to know the game pretty well. They are also cursed with gitguditis, which makes them unloveable. They will come hurtling into the forum like a meteor to whinge about anything 2.37% out of balance.

OP, you've come here with vibes only. You won't win the argument here, they've got notepads filled with natch potes, dev comments underlined in red and laundry lists of perceived grudges like a shooter's manifesto. They've got crowded whiteboards and red string connecting photos of ufos with alessia bridge, and they will talk you into the ground about anecdotal experiences that prove them right.

Just mald and huff, then go about your day.

You know the parody is great when the subject of it is laughing as well.

You have made my day sir or madame, and I thank you for it!

JohnRingo · August 6

BahometZ wrote: »

The forum is a PvP enabled zone so stands to reason OP got the reaction they did.
Truth is most pve players arent as engaged with the game as pvp players. Pvpers have to work harder on their build and understanding of stats/strats to survive against other players. They ought to know the game pretty well. They are also cursed with gitguditis, which makes them unloveable. They will come hurtling into the forum like a meteor to whinge about anything 2.37% out of balance.

OP, you've come here with vibes only. You won't win the argument here, they've got notepads filled with natch potes, dev comments underlined in red and laundry lists of perceived grudges like a shooter's manifesto. They've got crowded whiteboards and red string connecting photos of ufos with alessia bridge, and they will talk you into the ground about anecdotal experiences that prove them right.

Just mald and huff, then go about your day.

There's a reason PvP players obsess over mechanics. If your build, sustain, positioning, or understanding of combat is lacking, another player exploits it immediately.

In my opinion, PvP tends to produce players with a deeper understanding of ESO's combat systems because adaptation is mandatory, not optional. As for "whinging" about 2.37% balance changes... in PvP, 2.37% can absolutely determine whether a build becomes meta or disappears. Competitive players notice small changes because they have real consequences.