Oakensoul Ring Rebalance

Soarora · July 24

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

One quick and easy thing they could do for oakensoul heavy attack builds is bring back the nerfed tri-focus lightning staff cleave damage from the first two ticks. I mean maybe it was once overperforming, but I don't see how it would be now if I can just stand there with beam or breath doing the same thing.

Yes! This!

And they can put Oakensoul back to its pre-nerf status. For those who aren't aware, Oakensoul did get a nerf when people complained that HA builds were performing too well compared to their 2 bar counterparts so they adjusted some of the buffs it provides to be minor to reduce its power. But if the original version of the Oakensoul was released now in this environment, it wouldn't even approach the top tier DPS.

I went and looked and the actual original version of oakensoul from the first PTS was raw buffs (like what I was suggesting in my previous comment here) and it was nerfed by making it named buffs. 450 weapon/spell damage, 5280 armor, 450 all recoveries, 3737 all attributes, 1973 crit chance.

I will say it again. Major courage and major heroism on oakensoul will not do a single thing in a trial group and hardly anything in a dungeon group. If anything, making those major would be nerfing oakensoul because major courage is in almost every group but minor is less common (still common, though), same with minor heroism. Minor force makes way more sense for oakensoul to have because that’s a self-supplied buff usually, major force is a group buff that’s also incredibly common. Minor berserk is another self-supplied buff unless your healer is on point with combat prayer whilst major berserk is a group buff you get from atronach or dk class mastery (and many oaken players are on a sorc so they get the berserk from… their atro… though it really should have a self-synergy like boneyard).

So, yes, reverting the buffs to major wouldn’t make oakensoul be top DPS. It’d make it do worse DPS.

Ei8htba11 · July 24

Rogerth wrote: »

We completely understand and agree that one-bar builds should not achieve the absolute highest damage in the game. Risk and complexity should be rewarded. That being said, a 50% damage disparity makes the ring feel obsolete. To keep Oakensoul viable and respectable for veteran content, the damage potential should ideally sit around the 150k to 160k DPS mark.

Never quite understood that argument (against one bar builds). It's a choice, having one bar leaves the player short on utility and rather niched. I have no problem with a one bar sorc keeping up with my 2 bar NB, and would actually prefer they do so in content so that the group isn't losing DPS

AdonisJorge · July 24

Idk if oakensoul needs a buff, but they could maybe give empower a buff or even an unique PVE buff to heavy attack to oakensoul. Imo one bar builds should be able to do any PVE content even if they do not go to the top charts. Arcanist can be a good class to a more chill playstyle besides the classic HA build

Soarora · July 24

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

Rogerth wrote: »

We completely understand and agree that one-bar builds should not achieve the absolute highest damage in the game. Risk and complexity should be rewarded. That being said, a 50% damage disparity makes the ring feel obsolete. To keep Oakensoul viable and respectable for veteran content, the damage potential should ideally sit around the 150k to 160k DPS mark.

Never quite understood that argument (against one bar builds). It's a choice, having one bar leaves the player short on utility and rather niched. I have no problem with a one bar sorc keeping up with my 2 bar NB, and would actually prefer they do so in content so that the group isn't losing DPS

Oakensorc was meta for a bit, particularly for Asylum Sanctorium, Blackrose Prison, and even dungeon trifectas. That’s one cause of salt towards Oakensoul— a build deemed “easy”, “incredibly survival”, and “boring” was pushed into meta and the very same people who complained about using it forced other people to play it to get into their groups. Damage isn’t everything, ease of use and survivability are also in the equation. That said, arcanist had the same problem (worse single target dps but better survivability, easier, better cleave) but me and a few others I’ve talked to think it was a better implementation than the oaken meta was. It was 2-bars (slow rotation but still teaching people to use their backbar), had various setup options, had a skill curve, etc.

Anyway, my point is that the argument that oakensoul has to be worse than 2-bar is because it can eclipse 2-bar with its survivability (that it should not have to begin with).

Of course, it’s also offensive when an easier build competes at a similar level to a much harder one. But that’s also a general problem, I have made builds that are complicated that do far less damage than an easier one. In terms of meta, though, we are currently out of the woods with higher complexity builds no longer being overshadowed by easier ones. Now that arcanist dps isn’t meta anymore, but nightblade and cro are.

Orbital78 · July 24

Buffing heavy attack specialized sets could help too. Rakkhats voidmantle could use some major buffs too.

Soarora · July 24

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Idk if oakensoul needs a buff, but they could maybe give empower a buff or even an unique PVE buff to heavy attack to oakensoul. Imo one bar builds should be able to do any PVE content even if they do not go to the top charts. Arcanist can be a good class to a more chill playstyle besides the classic HA build

https://eso-hub.com/en/sets/rakkhats-voidmantle

There you go, a mythic that gives a unique buff to HA and doesn’t block you from doing barswap mechanics (I.e. Cloudrest). You don’t need to use both bars just because you have them. The build using Rakkhat I’ve seen is one-bar but it does more damage than using oakensoul.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Buffing heavy attack specialized sets could help too. Rakkhats voidmantle could use some major buffs too.

Yes, I agree with buffing Rakkhat. HA deserves to exist as a valid endgame playstyle balanced with its own pros/cons and skill curve like weaving 2-bar builds have. And I think Rakkhat does a good job of taking steps in that direction. Much better than oakensoul does.

Solariken · July 24

I do agree it needs buffed. I do not agree that it should be weaker than 2-bar builds. You give up a lot of optionality to run Oakensoul - I think you should be rewarded for committing to 1 weapon.

Rishikesa108 · July 24

No, let's buff Oakensoul build, instead.
There has always been an attempt by meta players to put down Oakensoul players, as if they were a threat to their supremacy. It's easier to play, so it's not fair?
Leaving aside that this feels like a childish mindset... why not go after Arcanists then (it's always easy to just beam everywhere and anyway) or recently hyper-buffed Werewolves?
But no, it's just trendy to hate on Oakensoul players.
It's disappointing to see that ZOS has sometimes given in to them.
Hopefully, there will be a change of direction instead.
This would open the doors to a larger player base and potentially more revenue for ZOS, following the formula: the happier the players, the more money they are willing to spend

Magic_Charmer · July 24

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

No, let's buff Oakensoul build, instead.
There has always been an attempt by meta players to put down Oakensoul players, as if they were a threat to their supremacy. It's easier to play, so it's not fair?
Leaving aside that this feels like a childish mindset... why not go after Arcanists then (it's always easy to just beam everywhere and anyway) or recently hyper-buffed Werewolves?
But no, it's just trendy to hate on Oakensoul players.
It's disappointing to see that ZOS has sometimes given in to them.
Hopefully, there will be a change of direction instead.
This would open the doors to a larger player base and potentially more revenue for ZOS, following the formula: the happier the players, the more money they are willing to spend

Fully agree with this.
The elitism against Oakensoul players is exhausting and unnecessary.
Bringing up Arcanists or Werewolves is a perfect point.
Those styles are also highly accessible, yet only Oakensoul gets constant backlash.
Buffing the ring wouldn't hurt anyone.
It would just allow a massive part of the player base to enjoy veteran content without physical strain or complex rotations.
Happier players stay subscribed, simple as that.

AdonisJorge · July 24

Soarora wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Idk if oakensoul needs a buff, but they could maybe give empower a buff or even an unique PVE buff to heavy attack to oakensoul. Imo one bar builds should be able to do any PVE content even if they do not go to the top charts. Arcanist can be a good class to a more chill playstyle besides the classic HA build

https://eso-hub.com/en/sets/rakkhats-voidmantle

There you go, a mythic that gives a unique buff to HA and doesn’t block you from doing barswap mechanics (I.e. Cloudrest). You don’t need to use both bars just because you have them. The build using Rakkhat I’ve seen is one-bar but it does more damage than using oakensoul.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Buffing heavy attack specialized sets could help too. Rakkhats voidmantle could use some major buffs too.

Yes, I agree with buffing Rakkhat. HA deserves to exist as a valid endgame playstyle balanced with its own pros/cons and skill curve like weaving 2-bar builds have. And I think Rakkhat does a good job of taking steps in that direction. Much better than oakensoul does.

I know about voidmantle, used it for a while, btw it is possible to complete cloudrest with one bar, even if the full team is one bar, there is recent streamer video doing that, i still prefer Oakensoul for the comodity of buffs and not losing the ability to gain resources with HA

kevkj · July 24

For a while now the most "accessible"/easy-to-use one bar setup has been a Velothi Fatecarver setup where you just don't swap bars. Previously subclassed, now full Arcanist.

After rework, you can also do werewolf setups in either light attack weaving flavour or dog fatecarver (aoe channelled ability).

For most players, Fatecarver is still the king of cleave and in many groups werewolves are near the top end of boss damage.

I can understand of course, thematic reasons for not wanting to play those setups but one bar players are not chained to Oakensoul. In general, you would probably do more damage swapping Oakensoul for Velothi as long as you're not doing a heavy attack setup.

For Oakensoul, I would actually argue for the removal of some buffs namely Minor Berserk and Minor Courage and instead replace them with unique 8% damage done to monsters and 200 weapon/spell damage. That way Oakensoul setups maximum potential in group content would be increased but remain about the same solo without self sourcing those buffs.

LadyLavina · July 24

@Rogerth With respect, friend, there's an awful lot of instances of "in my opinion" missing here. Way too much of this is stated as fact.

I've played since beta and could sit here all day long and rattle off builds that used to be viable but got patched out of viability. Many builds that weren't inherently busted, but just fell to the wayside because other things out performed them over time.

I'm actually grateful that Oakensoul isn't top of the line anymore because I felt pigeon-holed into it any time I wanted to do content at the highest level.

It hasn't been nerfed or run over by the power creep train, the game has just evolved around it so that it's not top dog anymore. Please don't buff it whatsoever, or else please make all builds viable at all times forever.

LadyLavina · July 24

Magic_Charmer wrote: »

It would just allow a massive part of the player base to enjoy veteran content without physical strain or complex rotations.

I do agree with this in a general sense about the game. I believe you may be hitting on a key issue. The highest possible dps should certainly require one to refine their skills to reach, but it should not require finger movements akin to playing Flight of the Bumble Bee at 3x speed on a grand piano , smashed down to the size of one's chosen control input medium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M93qXQWaBdE

Trier_Sero · July 25

I used to parse 72k on oakensoul HA build, after the last update I parse 92k and its already too much. Mobs die from 1st tick of lightning stuff, even normal trials are becoming trivial. Just give us trifocus cleave back.

Frayton · July 25

200k is nowhere near the norm, so don't use that as a benchmark. It's actually rare.

The lower end average for 2 bars in u50 is about 130-140s, mid is 150- 160s, and the upper end is the 170-180s range. Anything above that isn't normal.

Radiate77 · July 25

Frayton wrote: »

200k is nowhere near the norm, so don't use that as a benchmark. It's actually rare.

The lower end average for 2 bars in u50 is about 130-140s, mid is 150- 160s, and the upper end is the 170-180s range. Anything above that isn't normal.

What do you propose the average for 1-bar players is?

Gabriel_H · July 25

Orbital78 wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

100k dps isn’t enough? How much do you need to do 1 million?

Most newer trials leads want 120-130k. Even at that DPS, it still lacks burst that some encounters need.

Yet, significantly less is actually needed in content.

Frayton · July 25

Radiate77 wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

200k is nowhere near the norm, so don't use that as a benchmark. It's actually rare.

The lower end average for 2 bars in u50 is about 130-140s, mid is 150- 160s, and the upper end is the 170-180s range. Anything above that isn't normal.

What do you propose the average for 1-bar players is?

Depends on the type of 1 bar setup. Some can hit 120-140. An average 2 bar build can hit 115-125 just by staying on 1 bar the whole time. All of which is enough damage to clear anything in the game.

IZZEFlameLash · July 25

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

100k dps isn’t enough? How much do you need to do 1 million?

Most newer trials leads want 120-130k. Even at that DPS, it still lacks burst that some encounters need.

Yet, significantly less is actually needed in content.

Yeah, I am no fan of dummy parse numbers being used as the penultimate metric because of this disconnect.

What matters the most is the awareness of mechanics while maintaining decent DPS. Very rarely bosses have you standing and parsing, and buff uptimes are not 100% like when you are parsing against the dummies. And dead DPS deals 0 DPS regardless of ability to parse 200k.

Gabriel_H · July 25

Frayton wrote: »

200k is nowhere near the norm, so don't use that as a benchmark. It's actually rare.

The lower end average for 2 bars in u50 is about 130-140s, mid is 150- 160s, and the upper end is the 170-180s range. Anything above that isn't normal.

Past of the myth is because content creators do parses on the PTS with bugged items and then post it like it is gospel truth, without the context.

One look at ESO Logs shows the above numbers are correct.

HunterDawn · July 25

After the weakening of the ring, 80% of my casual gaming friends chose AFK, and perhaps they can come back to play after the enhancement XD

Seraphayel · July 25

Let’s be honest:

Everybody who‘s relying on Oakensoul wouldn’t need 150-200k DPS anyway because they’re not chasing that type of content.

A crutch can only get you so far and I don’t think Oakensoul needs adjustments. And I say that as someone who prefers playing one bar builds due to laziness.

Ordinator199 · July 25

I don't mind ha builds, but no thanks to oakensoul gaining major buffs back, it would be too viable in pvp where it already is at really good spot.

Just reverse tri-focus back and buff empower to 200% imo instead

ketsparrowhawk · July 25

Ordinator199 wrote: »

I don't mind ha builds, but no thanks to oakensoul gaining major buffs back, it would be too viable in pvp where it already is at really good spot.

Just reverse tri-focus back and buff empower to 200% imo instead

Disagree that it's in a good spot in PvP. I had a few 1-bar builds pre-subclassing but they simply cannot thrive in the current environment. Original Oakensoul would not have the same impact today as it did on its release. It's a very different environment. Major Force+Protection would be sensible imo since most players already have those buffs from Monomyth, so it's not like they'd be introducing a level of power that isn't already present in the environment, and Oak builds would still be hobbled compared to Monomyth setups since, of course, no backbar aka a major lack of utility and build density (effectively giving up an entire 5pc bonus due to no backbar.. or giving up a 2pc monster if you are using two 5pc sets, on top of having half the skills at your disposal).

Luneca · July 25

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Ordinator199 wrote: »

I don't mind ha builds, but no thanks to oakensoul gaining major buffs back, it would be too viable in pvp where it already is at really good spot.

Just reverse tri-focus back and buff empower to 200% imo instead

Disagree that it's in a good spot in PvP. I had a few 1-bar builds pre-subclassing but they simply cannot thrive in the current environment. Original Oakensoul would not have the same impact today as it did on its release. It's a very different environment. Major Force+Protection would be sensible imo since most players already have those buffs from Monomyth, so it's not like they'd be introducing a level of power that isn't already present in the environment, and Oak builds would still be hobbled compared to Monomyth setups since, of course, no backbar aka a major lack of utility and build density (effectively giving up an entire 5pc bonus due to no backbar.. or giving up a 2pc monster if you are using two 5pc sets, on top of having half the skills at your disposal).

It's not viable in this environment because subclassing made more skills available to players that actually make a difference versus classes like Templar that literallly had no real skills to bother slotting as a pure class.

Also, hard disagree about major buffs being added. Oakensoul already does more than a backbar would. The fact that it doesn't do more in all cases becuase of subclassing actually means that it's balanced for once.

And again, why should you be rewarded for an easier way out and less actions taken? PvP is all about buff uptime and the ring should give you all of those buffs up with no real downside besides losing a backbar?

Yeah, no. And before you claim that the loss of a backbar is a great loss, then why exactly are you using Oakensoul in the first place?

It's because in the context that you are using it, it isn't a loss. The ring shouldn't be in PvP at all IMO. And yet we have someone here actually trying to ask for a buff for it? Time to dial that opposition up to 100.

NO.

Orbital78 · July 25

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

100k dps isn’t enough? How much do you need to do 1 million?

Most newer trials leads want 120-130k. Even at that DPS, it still lacks burst that some encounters need.

Yet, significantly less is actually needed in content.

I know, I've done all the vet trials and some hard modes or partials with 100-110k. U50 mins keep going up though. Hopefully the new trials aren't balanced around the smaller community.

tomofhyrule · July 25

I think one of the biggest problems with Oakensoul is the misconceptions around its existence.

It was not introduced as "the accessibility option." If it were the accessibility option, then it would be available from the beginning and not locked behind a grind and multiple DLCs. Coincidentally, ESO did release an accessibility option very soon afterwards, and that is Arcanist.

It is specifically something that allows you to not juggle a backbar full of buffs. That means it is designed to replace a buff bar, and that's all it means.

The problem is that you really only need a buff bar like that when you're soloing. If you're in a group, you have supports who are there to offer those buffs to you instead, and thus your backbar is more for more damaging things and DoTs. This really means that Oakensoul is essentially the "I don't want to group" option.
As such, if you're using Oakensoul in a group, you're not getting the buffs that all of the other groupmates are because you already have them, but then you're also running 5 fewer skills than everyone else. On top of that, they are using those 5 extra skills for more damage, because all of those buffs are coming in anyway from the supports. That means that someone in a group with Oakensoul is being so far outclassed by their groupmates. That's why it's "bad."

The problem is a lot of people have linked "Oakensoul" and "accessibility," and refuse to consider other accessible builds. If you're solo, Oakensoul is a great option. But in a group, Oakensoul is actively preventing you from getting any buffs, whereas a different Heavy Attack setup like Rakkhat's is better and still allows you to get the buffs the healers are throwing out so you can keep up with the group. About the only time that Oakensoul works in a group is when the entire group is in Oakensoul, as then you can trade out your supports for more damage since the buffs are all there from the beginning.

Are there people who are toxic about Oakensoul just for its existence? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the Oakensoul users who stomp their feet and say "I have to use a heavy attack build but now I'm gatekept!" are right either. You still have to build for the content you want to run, and Oakensoul is a solo thing.
Honestly they should just do something like they did with Pale Order to make it obvious that it's designed for solo play - have the buffs stop working in large groups, or even just have a popup notification when you join a group while wearing Oakensoul that that's not a good idea.

Another thing I see a lot with Oakensoul users is that they tend to assume that all they need to do it put on the ring and they get max damage without any parsing or practicing at all. You still need to do that. There is still a range of people who use it at different skill levels.
I have seen two people, both with the exact same Oakensoul gear and race/class and CP and everything, and one player did easily double the damage of the other. Why? That player focused on his uptimes, and made sure to cast things perfectly weaved with his heavy attacks and had all of his timings right. The other player mostly just held heavy attack and pushed a skill every so often.

ketsparrowhawk · July 25

Luneca wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Ordinator199 wrote: »

I don't mind ha builds, but no thanks to oakensoul gaining major buffs back, it would be too viable in pvp where it already is at really good spot.

Just reverse tri-focus back and buff empower to 200% imo instead

Disagree that it's in a good spot in PvP. I had a few 1-bar builds pre-subclassing but they simply cannot thrive in the current environment. Original Oakensoul would not have the same impact today as it did on its release. It's a very different environment. Major Force+Protection would be sensible imo since most players already have those buffs from Monomyth, so it's not like they'd be introducing a level of power that isn't already present in the environment, and Oak builds would still be hobbled compared to Monomyth setups since, of course, no backbar aka a major lack of utility and build density (effectively giving up an entire 5pc bonus due to no backbar.. or giving up a 2pc monster if you are using two 5pc sets, on top of having half the skills at your disposal).

It's not viable in this environment because subclassing made more skills available to players that actually make a difference versus classes like Templar that literallly had no real skills to bother slotting as a pure class.

Also, hard disagree about major buffs being added. Oakensoul already does more than a backbar would. The fact that it doesn't do more in all cases becuase of subclassing actually means that it's balanced for once.

And again, why should you be rewarded for an easier way out and less actions taken? PvP is all about buff uptime and the ring should give you all of those buffs up with no real downside besides losing a backbar?

Yeah, no. And before you claim that the loss of a backbar is a great loss, then why exactly are you using Oakensoul in the first place?

It's because in the context that you are using it, it isn't a loss. The ring shouldn't be in PvP at all IMO. And yet we have someone here actually trying to ask for a buff for it? Time to dial that opposition up to 100.

NO.

So we agree Oaken is not viable in the current environment.

Losing a backbar is a GIGANTIC loss even with Oaken. All the buffs that Oaken provides come with other benefits on a two-bar build: Sorc's major resolve skill also gives major-or-minor expedition as well as AOE damage. NB has basically no buff management whatsoever so they gain very little from Oaken. The common source of major force (race against time) also comes with major expedition + snare removal. DK's source of Major Brutality also causes their light attacks to deal extra damage.. Arcanists Major Brutality is similar. Templar's armor buff gives them sustain and an extremely strong heal. Etc etc etc... endless examples (betty netch gives maj brutality + sustain + cleanse + activates strong passives.. I could go on and on). A decent 2-bar build will have better buff coverage and WAY more utility than any Oaken build.

Plus having only 5 slots + ult is extremely limiting. Two of those slots are already spoken for by Vigor and a burst heal of some kind. You're gonna need a source of Maj expedition so that's a third slot. So you have two bar slots + an ult (if you choose not to use a defensive ult that is) to work with to deal damage and kill players.. for most players that isn't going to be enough to do the job. And you're still going to be missing a ton of utility and defense (no evasion, no minor expedition, little-to-no crowd control, etc etc). Oaken builds as they are now are simply free kills, plain and simple.

On top of that you are losing a backbar weapon.. presumably a defensive weapon of somekind, so a huge loss there (or you could use a defensive wep but then you don't have good damage.. a loss either way).. plus you miss out on having a 5pc bonus on the backbar, or give up a monster set in order to run two 5pc sets.

Your opinion on whether or not it belongs in PvP is narrow-minded and insensitive to people who require more accessible options in order to be competitive. Oaken was a great solution for such players, it just needs to be bumped up a bit so that they can remain competitive. You can have 100% opposition towards these players if you want but it's not a good look.

Luneca · July 25

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Your opinion on whether or not it belongs in PvP is narrow-minded and insensitive to people who require more accessible options in order to be competitive. Oaken was a great solution for such players, it just needs to be bumped up a bit so that they can remain competitive. You can have 100% opposition towards these players if you want but it's not a good look.

Funniest thing I've read on the forums ever. Where are the moderators to cut this bait?

"More acccessible options" locked behind a paywall and boring unfun grind? That more accessible?

Major force isn't "accessible" to most of the players in PvP, not with 100% uptime which is exactly why the ring got nerfed in the first place.

Oakensoul was the reason for Update 35 if you or anyone else has forgotten. You know, the patch that caused a mass exodus of players because it was nothing but nerfs across the board to accomodate a broken mythic?

And I'd say what is narrow minded is making an assumption about someone based on the position they take.

I'm opposed to you wanting to buff your gank build, so that makes me narrow minded? Ha.

The moderators need to act quicker to remove the bait posted constantly on these forums. But it's okay, I need a good laugh every now and then.

ketsparrowhawk · July 25

Just about everyone has permanent major force on their front bar with Monomyth.

Not a ganker at all.. who's making assumptions now.

No point in debating with a siege-main. Have a nice day.