Why do other campaigns have to close during every Vengeance test?

xylteh · July 23

Hello ZOS,

I play Cyrodiil on PC/EU almost daily, and I would like to ask about something that returns to the forums during every single Vengeance test.

It has been over a year since the first test, and each time the same discussion comes back. The population caps have never been filled, which I think says something on its own. Many of us have completed the surveys and posted feedback in the threads, so the opinion of the PvP community should be well documented by now.
The part I do not understand is why Gray Host and Blackreach have to be closed while the test runs. I assume the intention is to move players into Vengeance, but from what I see the result is the opposite. A large part of my friend list simply goes offline for the week or plays something else, and some of them do not come back afterwards. Many of us buy the chapters and pay for ESO Plus specifically to play the campaigns we enjoy, and that access has now been taken away several times.

I would also like to ask why this method is used for PvP only. Performance problems exist in veteran trials as well, but I do not think a comparable test would be accepted there. Imagine a week where the only trial available is a simplified version: reduced skill options, simplified boss mechanics, free consumables, no gear or champion points to worry about, and the same rewards as players who put the work in. Then imagine your normal veteran trials being closed for that week, so you have to cancel your planned trifecta attempts, and the same thing repeating every few months for over a year. That is close to how these tests feel to players whose main content is Gray Host and Blackreach.

If the goal is to get more people into Vengeance, there are ways to do it that do not take content away from anyone. Announce the test clearly in the game and on the launcher, and add a Vengeance exclusive Golden Pursuit for the duration. PvE players and casual players would come for the rewards, you would get a much larger and more varied population sample, and some of them would probably stay because they found out they enjoy it. Closing the other campaigns brings people in for a day and then sends them elsewhere for a week.

For reference, this is what a normally active PvP guild looks like at 8pm (prime time PC/EU) during a Vengeance test. Almost everyone is either in Imperial City or offline.

I would appreciate an explanation of the reasoning behind closing the other campaigns, and whether keeping them open during future tests is something you would consider.

Seraphayel · July 23

That anyone is playing Vengeance. If they wouldn’t do this, they had no test subjects for Vengeance because nobody wants to play it.

DiouriR · July 23

It's seriously frustrating these test CLEARLY lead to nothing and are never ending, such a shame to see one of the very last few good unpredatory MMOs go down the drain like this, simply because the devs do not listen to the community let alone play their own game.

tomofhyrule · July 23

The point of closing the other Campaigns is that this is designed to be a stress test. They want the population to be as high as possible, so having other options open to dilute the population is counter to the goals of the test.

Note I am just explaining it, not supporting it. The fact that Vengeance cannot reasonably get above one bar when GH is an option is evidence enough that the broader PvP community is not enthusiastic about it. And especially now with the uncertainty in the game itself (not to mention the uncertainty of whether the other Class Refreshes will be able to drop within a reasonable schedule, considering we still have no news on Warden’s status)

xylteh · July 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The point of closing the other Campaigns is that this is designed to be a stress test. They want the population to be as high as possible, so having other options open to dilute the population is counter to the goals of the test.

Note I am just explaining it, not supporting it. The fact that Vengeance cannot reasonably get above one bar when GH is an option is evidence enough that the broader PvP community is not enthusiastic about it. And especially now with the uncertainty in the game itself (not to mention the uncertainty of whether the other Class Refreshes will be able to drop within a reasonable schedule, considering we still have no news on Warden’s status)

I understand that is the intention, my issue is that it doesn't seem to work. As you can see from my screenshot, almost none of the veteran GH/BR players actually moved to Vengeance. They went to Imperial City or offline instead. So the campaigns get closed and the test still doesn't get the population it was after.

The players who don't switch to IC go and play something else for the week, and some of them don't come back. That is a real cost for a test that isn't hitting its own target anyway.

A clear in-game announcement plus a Vengeance exclusive Golden Pursuit would pull in far more people than closing campaigns does, including PvE players who would never queue for Cyrodiil otherwise. That is also a more varied sample than a group of GH regulars who are only there because there is nowhere else to go.

Luneca · July 23

Love all the people refusing to participate. They can be silenced, but they can't be forced to participate.

BardokRedSnow · July 23

Can’t be silenced either judging from all the closed threads prior and I still see three or four vengeance threads up.

There was one test op that had Greyhost beside vengeance and vengeance got mogged. Lots of copium here on the forums to explain the numbers of the bars and yadyada but that didn’t change the fact that everyone went back to Greyhost by day two. That Zos never allowed Greyhost up again next to it during tests says all anyone needs to know. It’s been dead since its permanent iteration also.

Gabriel_H · July 23

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

Players have for years complained about the performance in Cyrodiil.
ZOS put together a test environment to identify the problem - they concluded it was the server calcs (which frankly was obvious).
ZOS then stripped back the ruleset to give a starting point with minimal calcs - Players complained.
ZOS then started adding things back in slowly, in part for caution, and in part they were lacking data - Players complained.
ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get more data and hoping players would participate to do so - Players complained.
ZOS have left with little choice but to force participation for all of a week - Players complained.

Are you noticing a pattern? ZOS finally take steps to address Cyrodiil performance and all players do is complain. There is no magic switch available to ZOS to fix performance. They are being methodical and cautious, which means slow progress. That pace is made worse when players don't participate. It means ZOS are not getting the data they need.

The goal seems to be to get Vengeance as close to the GH ruleset as possible without tanking performance. I would have gone for a top down approach, limiting HoTs, DoTs, AoEs etc but ZOS chose a bottom up approach. Stripping back then adding back in slowly.

They also want to expand the population cap from 360 (GH) to 900 (Vengeance). Personally I would aim for a cap of 600 meaning Vengeance can get even closer to the GH ruleset. This all takes time and data. Either you want Cyrodiil fixed or you are happy with your laggy ballgroup unbalanced desynced mess. So which is it?

If it is the latter, then wait a few days and it will be back. If the former, then participate and speed up the process so ZOS don't have to keep doing this, and we can get a Cyrodiil that is playable. This is not the finished product. It isn't for newbies. It isn't for PvEers who want to PvP (Fun fact: Only about 5 - 10% of players are PvP only, about 50 - 55% do both). It's a test environment, that needs data to move forward, to achieve a reasonable goal.

Cyrodiil performance cannot be improved by ZOS without changing the ruleset. So help make that ruleset something that works. Play it, give feedback. Complain about the shortfalls in good faith with reasoned explanations. Some of the arguments I have seen in recent days are laughable or bordering on detached from reality. Some have said it's a 12 year old game it should work - well it doesn't, and fixing it takes time. Some have said they are happy with their laggy desynced mess - which is one opinion I guess, and I doubt shared by anyone who doesn't run a ballgroup.

I could say more, but what's the point?! Many refuse to engage in the simple premise that to fix Cyrodiil the ruleset has to change. Many cannot seem to grasp the nuances involved in that. Many don't seem to understand that Vengeance is a test environment. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

BardokRedSnow · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

DenverRalphy · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

<snipped for brevity>

You seem to be presenting this as if it is the fault of the players.

Not having enough particpation to test an entirely new restructure of the PvP system is a ZOS problem. Not a player problem. The onus does not lie at the player's doorstep.

BXR_Lonestar · July 23

Because nobody would play it otherwise.

xylteh · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

Calling it a boycott isn't quite right. Plenty of us did participate, first test, second, third, and I filled in the surveys as well. Participation dropped because people got tired of it, not because anyone organised against it. Those are two different problems and they need two different fixes.

The issue was never testing itself, it's the format. A full week, every time, for over a year. Many of us are paying subs and using our time off work or uni during summer, and the content we actually want to play keeps being closed for it. One to three days would still give ZOS a solid stress test without writing off someone's entire week.

And if the goal really is maximum numbers, a Vengeance Golden Pursuit would do more than closing campaigns ever will. It brings in hundreds of PvE players who would otherwise never set foot in Cyrodiil, instead of recycling the same PvP regulars who are already burnt out on it. My screenshot is what those regulars actually do during a test week: Imperial City or offline.

HatchetHaro · July 23

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

I genuinely think that letting more casual players dip their toes into veteran hardmode trials and be able to experience those mechanics in some of the very cool fights without having to worry about grinding for meta gear is a very good thing. It'll still take skill, loads of skill, to be able to get the more recent trifectas; just that now you can worry about one less thing in your loadout before you jump into a trial.

The thing is, a lot of Vengeance haters love to throw out this "put Vengeance in PvE" thing as some form of gotcha, but it is genuinely a really cool idea. It may not be healthy in terms of progression (grinding for meta gear sets is progression), but then think about applying it where it makes absolute sense: Infinite Archive! Imagine an actual roguelike Infinite Archive that you don't have to get meta gear for, that lets you get far into it with nothing but good strategy and a generous sprinkling of RNG; I am salivating at the idea of it right now.

BardokRedSnow · July 23

HatchetHaro wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

Good glad we're in agreement, someone should send this idea to the developers so everyone can join in on the fun ^_^

GulmarAvocado · July 23

HatchetHaro wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

I genuinely think that letting more casual players dip their toes into veteran hardmode trials and be able to experience those mechanics in some of the very cool fights without having to worry about grinding for meta gear is a very good thing. It'll still take skill, loads of skill, to be able to get the more recent trifectas; just that now you can worry about one less thing in your loadout before you jump into a trial.

The thing is, a lot of Vengeance haters love to throw out this "put Vengeance in PvE" thing as some form of gotcha, but it is genuinely a really cool idea. It may not be healthy in terms of progression (grinding for meta gear sets is progression), but then think about applying it where it makes absolute sense: Infinite Archive! Imagine an actual roguelike Infinite Archive that you don't have to get meta gear for, that lets you get far into it with nothing but good strategy and a generous sprinkling of RNG; I am salivating at the idea of it right now.

I assure you that most of the endgame PvE community would be flooding these forums with complaints if ZOS introduced a “Vengeance” version of trials and dungeons, removed the traditional versions for an entire week, and forced everyone into an experimental ruleset they never asked for.

CAB_Life · July 23

As others have said, most of the PVP population won’t touch it otherwise.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

100%. If ZOS so much as suggested this in a PVP environment, there would be riots and mass subscription cancellations. Considering most Vengeance enjoyers seems to be PVEers, you would think they would be sympathetic to this fact.

SerafinaWaterstar · July 23

Yep, most of my pvp guild, normally found in numbers in GH is having a week off, or in IC.

JustLovely · July 23

xylteh wrote: »

Hello ZOS,

I play Cyrodiil on PC/EU almost daily, and I would like to ask about something that returns to the forums during every single Vengeance test.

It has been over a year since the first test, and each time the same discussion comes back. The population caps have never been filled, which I think says something on its own. Many of us have completed the surveys and posted feedback in the threads, so the opinion of the PvP community should be well documented by now.
The part I do not understand is why Gray Host and Blackreach have to be closed while the test runs. I assume the intention is to move players into Vengeance, but from what I see the result is the opposite. A large part of my friend list simply goes offline for the week or plays something else, and some of them do not come back afterwards. Many of us buy the chapters and pay for ESO Plus specifically to play the campaigns we enjoy, and that access has now been taken away several times.

I would also like to ask why this method is used for PvP only. Performance problems exist in veteran trials as well, but I do not think a comparable test would be accepted there. Imagine a week where the only trial available is a simplified version: reduced skill options, simplified boss mechanics, free consumables, no gear or champion points to worry about, and the same rewards as players who put the work in. Then imagine your normal veteran trials being closed for that week, so you have to cancel your planned trifecta attempts, and the same thing repeating every few months for over a year. That is close to how these tests feel to players whose main content is Gray Host and Blackreach.

If the goal is to get more people into Vengeance, there are ways to do it that do not take content away from anyone. Announce the test clearly in the game and on the launcher, and add a Vengeance exclusive Golden Pursuit for the duration. PvE players and casual players would come for the rewards, you would get a much larger and more varied population sample, and some of them would probably stay because they found out they enjoy it. Closing the other campaigns brings people in for a day and then sends them elsewhere for a week.

For reference, this is what a normally active PvP guild looks like at 8pm (prime time PC/EU) during a Vengeance test. Almost everyone is either in Imperial City or offline.

I would appreciate an explanation of the reasoning behind closing the other campaigns, and whether keeping them open during future tests is something you would consider.

They didn't have to close GH this week. They chose to. They chose to take away a week of game time away with no compensation.

JustLovely · July 23

Seraphayel wrote: »

That anyone is playing Vengeance. If they wouldn’t do this, they had no test subjects for Vengeance because nobody wants to play it.

There are plenty of people posting on this forum how great vengeance is. They can test it. No reason to abuse GH players like this.

NovelliESO · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

Players have for years complained about the performance in Cyrodiil.
ZOS put together a test environment to identify the problem - they concluded it was the server calcs (which frankly was obvious).
ZOS then stripped back the ruleset to give a starting point with minimal calcs - Players complained.
ZOS then started adding things back in slowly, in part for caution, and in part they were lacking data - Players complained.
ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get more data and hoping players would participate to do so - Players complained.
ZOS have left with little choice but to force participation for all of a week - Players complained.

Are you noticing a pattern? ZOS finally take steps to address Cyrodiil performance and all players do is complain. There is no magic switch available to ZOS to fix performance. They are being methodical and cautious, which means slow progress. That pace is made worse when players don't participate. It means ZOS are not getting the data they need.

The goal seems to be to get Vengeance as close to the GH ruleset as possible without tanking performance. I would have gone for a top down approach, limiting HoTs, DoTs, AoEs etc but ZOS chose a bottom up approach. Stripping back then adding back in slowly.

They also want to expand the population cap from 360 (GH) to 900 (Vengeance). Personally I would aim for a cap of 600 meaning Vengeance can get even closer to the GH ruleset. This all takes time and data. Either you want Cyrodiil fixed or you are happy with your laggy ballgroup unbalanced desynced mess. So which is it?

If it is the latter, then wait a few days and it will be back. If the former, then participate and speed up the process so ZOS don't have to keep doing this, and we can get a Cyrodiil that is playable. This is not the finished product. It isn't for newbies. It isn't for PvEers who want to PvP (Fun fact: Only about 5 - 10% of players are PvP only, about 50 - 55% do both). It's a test environment, that needs data to move forward, to achieve a reasonable goal.

Cyrodiil performance cannot be improved by ZOS without changing the ruleset. So help make that ruleset something that works. Play it, give feedback. Complain about the shortfalls in good faith with reasoned explanations. Some of the arguments I have seen in recent days are laughable or bordering on detached from reality. Some have said it's a 12 year old game it should work - well it doesn't, and fixing it takes time. Some have said they are happy with their laggy desynced mess - which is one opinion I guess, and I doubt shared by anyone who doesn't run a ballgroup.

I could say more, but what's the point?! Many refuse to engage in the simple premise that to fix Cyrodiil the ruleset has to change. Many cannot seem to grasp the nuances involved in that. Many don't seem to understand that Vengeance is a test environment. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

You are calling people bad faith and toxic yet you have on multiple occasions given out fake numbers with zero proof and when pushed on it you simply ignore it. This has happened 3 times in the last week alone as you have gone to war to defend vengeance .

You’re placing the blame on paying customers for a situation created entirely by developer management decisions.

Players pay subscriptions to play the live game, they are not uncompensated QA testers. If a test campaign is so stripped-down and unfun that players actively avoid it, taking away Gray Host and Blackreach doesn't "force data collection"; it just forces players to log off and play other games.

We have given ZOS data through nearly a decade of tests—no-proc events, group cap changes, skill cooldowns, and hardware upgrades. Blaming the player base for being exhausted by forced, stripped-back testing after 8+ years of broken performance promises isn't "seeing the bigger picture," it's just shifting accountability away from the developer.

JustLovely · July 23

NovelliESO wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

Players have for years complained about the performance in Cyrodiil.
ZOS put together a test environment to identify the problem - they concluded it was the server calcs (which frankly was obvious).
ZOS then stripped back the ruleset to give a starting point with minimal calcs - Players complained.
ZOS then started adding things back in slowly, in part for caution, and in part they were lacking data - Players complained.
ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get more data and hoping players would participate to do so - Players complained.
ZOS have left with little choice but to force participation for all of a week - Players complained.

Are you noticing a pattern? ZOS finally take steps to address Cyrodiil performance and all players do is complain. There is no magic switch available to ZOS to fix performance. They are being methodical and cautious, which means slow progress. That pace is made worse when players don't participate. It means ZOS are not getting the data they need.

The goal seems to be to get Vengeance as close to the GH ruleset as possible without tanking performance. I would have gone for a top down approach, limiting HoTs, DoTs, AoEs etc but ZOS chose a bottom up approach. Stripping back then adding back in slowly.

They also want to expand the population cap from 360 (GH) to 900 (Vengeance). Personally I would aim for a cap of 600 meaning Vengeance can get even closer to the GH ruleset. This all takes time and data. Either you want Cyrodiil fixed or you are happy with your laggy ballgroup unbalanced desynced mess. So which is it?

If it is the latter, then wait a few days and it will be back. If the former, then participate and speed up the process so ZOS don't have to keep doing this, and we can get a Cyrodiil that is playable. This is not the finished product. It isn't for newbies. It isn't for PvEers who want to PvP (Fun fact: Only about 5 - 10% of players are PvP only, about 50 - 55% do both). It's a test environment, that needs data to move forward, to achieve a reasonable goal.

Cyrodiil performance cannot be improved by ZOS without changing the ruleset. So help make that ruleset something that works. Play it, give feedback. Complain about the shortfalls in good faith with reasoned explanations. Some of the arguments I have seen in recent days are laughable or bordering on detached from reality. Some have said it's a 12 year old game it should work - well it doesn't, and fixing it takes time. Some have said they are happy with their laggy desynced mess - which is one opinion I guess, and I doubt shared by anyone who doesn't run a ballgroup.

I could say more, but what's the point?! Many refuse to engage in the simple premise that to fix Cyrodiil the ruleset has to change. Many cannot seem to grasp the nuances involved in that. Many don't seem to understand that Vengeance is a test environment. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

Players have for years complained about the performance in Cyrodiil.
ZOS put together a test environment to identify the problem - they concluded it was the server calcs (which frankly was obvious).
ZOS then stripped back the ruleset to give a starting point with minimal calcs - Players complained.
ZOS then started adding things back in slowly, in part for caution, and in part they were lacking data - Players complained.
ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get more data and hoping players would participate to do so - Players complained.
ZOS have left with little choice but to force participation for all of a week - Players complained.

Are you noticing a pattern? ZOS finally take steps to address Cyrodiil performance and all players do is complain. There is no magic switch available to ZOS to fix performance. They are being methodical and cautious, which means slow progress. That pace is made worse when players don't participate. It means ZOS are not getting the data they need.

The goal seems to be to get Vengeance as close to the GH ruleset as possible without tanking performance. I would have gone for a top down approach, limiting HoTs, DoTs, AoEs etc but ZOS chose a bottom up approach. Stripping back then adding back in slowly.

They also want to expand the population cap from 360 (GH) to 900 (Vengeance). Personally I would aim for a cap of 600 meaning Vengeance can get even closer to the GH ruleset. This all takes time and data. Either you want Cyrodiil fixed or you are happy with your laggy ballgroup unbalanced desynced mess. So which is it?

If it is the latter, then wait a few days and it will be back. If the former, then participate and speed up the process so ZOS don't have to keep doing this, and we can get a Cyrodiil that is playable. This is not the finished product. It isn't for newbies. It isn't for PvEers who want to PvP (Fun fact: Only about 5 - 10% of players are PvP only, about 50 - 55% do both). It's a test environment, that needs data to move forward, to achieve a reasonable goal.

Cyrodiil performance cannot be improved by ZOS without changing the ruleset. So help make that ruleset something that works. Play it, give feedback. Complain about the shortfalls in good faith with reasoned explanations. Some of the arguments I have seen in recent days are laughable or bordering on detached from reality. Some have said it's a 12 year old game it should work - well it doesn't, and fixing it takes time. Some have said they are happy with their laggy desynced mess - which is one opinion I guess, and I doubt shared by anyone who doesn't run a ballgroup.

I could say more, but what's the point?! Many refuse to engage in the simple premise that to fix Cyrodiil the ruleset has to change. Many cannot seem to grasp the nuances involved in that. Many don't seem to understand that Vengeance is a test environment. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

You are calling people bad faith and toxic yet you have on multiple occasions given out fake numbers with zero proof and when pushed on it you simply ignore it. This has happened 3 times in the last week alone as you have gone to war to defend vengeance .

You’re placing the blame on paying customers for a situation created entirely by developer management decisions.

Players pay subscriptions to play the live game, they are not uncompensated QA testers. If a test campaign is so stripped-down and unfun that players actively avoid it, taking away Gray Host and Blackreach doesn't "force data collection"; it just forces players to log off and play other games.

We have given ZOS data through nearly a decade of tests—no-proc events, group cap changes, skill cooldowns, and hardware upgrades. Blaming the player base for being exhausted by forced, stripped-back testing after 8+ years of broken performance promises isn't "seeing the bigger picture," it's just shifting accountability away from the developer.

As the saying goes, some people don't have any mirrors in their house.

Luneca · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

It's not that deep.

It's quite simple for me really. My time belongs to me and I will enjoy it the way I see fit.

I'm not going to participate in a forced test or anything I don't find fun.

What I do find fun is firing 6 coldfire siege. Can I do that there? No. Then it's a skip.

What I do find fun is obtaining styles and fashion. Do I need to be there to get any of that? No.

What I do find fun is finding the most broken builds. While I can do that there, it's pointless because it's a test, and again, I don't actually find it fun.

What I do find fun is sweating, which I don't do there.

So you tell me, no, why doesn't ZOS tell me why I should be an unpaid tester not having fun in the game and utilizing my limited time on Earth doing so?

I'm not going to do it. And no amount of shaming or otherwise attempts at coercion can make me do it. Not now, not ever.

xylteh · July 23

HatchetHaro wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

I genuinely think that letting more casual players dip their toes into veteran hardmode trials and be able to experience those mechanics in some of the very cool fights without having to worry about grinding for meta gear is a very good thing

On paper, sure. In practice, playing Vengeance is nothing like playing on the traditional campaigns. A lot of skills behave differently or are missing key parts of what they normally do, and there is almost nothing to maintain, so you are never punished for dropping uptimes. You do not learn real rotations there because the environment does not ask for them.

The trials version would have the same problem. Someone learns the fight in the simplified mode, comes out with the achievement, and gets accepted into a vet group from group finder on the strength of it. Then they wipe the group on mechanics they were never actually tested on.

DiouriR · July 23

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

If more players had participated in Vengeance in the last month, ZOS would likely not have needed to do this.

<snipped for brevity>

You seem to be presenting this as if it is the fault of the players.

Not having enough particpation to test an entirely new restructure of the PvP system is a ZOS problem. Not a player problem. The onus does not lie at the player's doorstep.

I

HatchetHaro wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

I genuinely think that letting more casual players dip their toes into veteran hardmode trials and be able to experience those mechanics in some of the very cool fights without having to worry about grinding for meta gear is a very good thing. It'll still take skill, loads of skill, to be able to get the more recent trifectas; just that now you can worry about one less thing in your loadout before you jump into a trial.

The thing is, a lot of Vengeance haters love to throw out this "put Vengeance in PvE" thing as some form of gotcha, but it is genuinely a really cool idea. It may not be healthy in terms of progression (grinding for meta gear sets is progression), but then think about applying it where it makes absolute sense: Infinite Archive! Imagine an actual roguelike Infinite Archive that you don't have to get meta gear for, that lets you get far into it with nothing but good strategy and a generous sprinkling of RNG; I am salivating at the idea of it right now.

Yea fun once every 6 months, we get this awful campaign every 2 months or so for a year straight with plans of making it permanent and getting rid of the normal pvp we want to play.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 23

It has to be closed to drive attendance to stress-test. They could have also done a Golden Pursuit for it, but that could have been a scheduling/workload issue. Joining the test isn't an approval of Vengeance, it's helping the test and helping them improve Cyrodiil.

I think people would be more willing to see the benefit of the tests if they felt that Cyrodiil was being actively improved by Vengeance (its original goal). But they have to test things one-by-one and we haven't heard an improvement plan yet. It's been like 5 years since they've been trying to find significant Cyrodiil improvements, which is why we haven't gotten new Cyrodiil features or mechanics (people were complaining that we got Volendrung but it was still laggy).

The idea that Vengeance will replace Gray Host is a conspiracy (probably based in frustration?) with no evidence that contradicts stated facts. I wish Gray Host could be as performant and evenly matched as Vengeance.

Deserrick · July 23

xylteh wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment.. All it becomes is bad faith arguments and as toxic as some PvPers are.

Test this, take away all other instances of pve except vengeance trials to see if they can fix performance in the rest of the game too and so casual players can get the super cool rewards from hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements without being hindered by anything but true skill

Casual solo players want the mounts and furnishings too

And don’t be toxic or argue in bad faith now, everyone deserves a chance at those achievements, and it’s a test environment so we gotta restrict the rest of the game people enjoy so Zos can fix their game, and so I can get that cute ice fire mount.

As one of those people with all the hardcore trial trifecta hard mode achievements... yeah! Absolutely! I think that can be fun!

I genuinely think that letting more casual players dip their toes into veteran hardmode trials and be able to experience those mechanics in some of the very cool fights without having to worry about grinding for meta gear is a very good thing

and there is almost nothing to maintain, so you are never punished for dropping uptimes. You do not learn real rotations there because the environment does not ask for them.

The concept of not having to grind gear for a select few viable builds was already a very good thing. This is just gilding the lily.

JustLovely · July 23

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It has to be closed to drive attendance to stress-test. They could have also done a Golden Pursuit for it, but that could have been a scheduling/workload issue. Joining the test isn't an approval of Vengeance, it's helping the test and helping them improve Cyrodiil.

I think people would be more willing to see the benefit of the tests if they felt that Cyrodiil was being actively improved by Vengeance (its original goal). But they have to test things one-by-one and we haven't heard an improvement plan yet. It's been like 5 years since they've been trying to find significant Cyrodiil improvements, which is why we haven't gotten new Cyrodiil features or mechanics (people were complaining that we got Volendrung but it was still laggy).

The idea that Vengeance will replace Gray Host is a conspiracy (probably based in frustration?) with no evidence that contradicts stated facts. I wish Gray Host could be as performant and evenly matched as Vengeance.

Where has ZOS said that they for sure won't be removing GH from the game at some point? Links please.

And keep in mind that right now, this week, ZOS has removed GH from the game yet again. So we know ZOS won't hesitate to remove GH again in the future.

NovelliESO · July 23

JustLovely wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It has to be closed to drive attendance to stress-test. They could have also done a Golden Pursuit for it, but that could have been a scheduling/workload issue. Joining the test isn't an approval of Vengeance, it's helping the test and helping them improve Cyrodiil.

I think people would be more willing to see the benefit of the tests if they felt that Cyrodiil was being actively improved by Vengeance (its original goal). But they have to test things one-by-one and we haven't heard an improvement plan yet. It's been like 5 years since they've been trying to find significant Cyrodiil improvements, which is why we haven't gotten new Cyrodiil features or mechanics (people were complaining that we got Volendrung but it was still laggy).

The idea that Vengeance will replace Gray Host is a conspiracy (probably based in frustration?) with no evidence that contradicts stated facts. I wish Gray Host could be as performant and evenly matched as Vengeance.

Where has ZOS said that they for sure won't be removing GH from the game at some point? Links please.

And keep in mind that right now, this week, ZOS has removed GH from the game yet again. So we know ZOS won't hesitate to remove GH again in the future.

They haven't. The people on these forums lack the ability to understand words. All they have said is there are no plans to remove GH, not that they won't. They very well can turn around and say "oh, while we didn't have plans to before, and that was the honest truth, we have plans to do it now!"

baratron · July 23

xylteh wrote: »

And if the goal really is maximum numbers, a Vengeance Golden Pursuit would do more than closing campaigns ever will. It brings in hundreds of PvE players who would otherwise never set foot in Cyrodiil, instead of recycling the same PvP regulars who are already burnt out on it. My screenshot is what those regulars actually do during a test week: Imperial City or offline.

It really didn't help that this time around there was no warning of the Vengeance testing. It wasn't in the July roadmap. There wasn't a website article about it.

Even the double AP wasn't announced until the second day of the test.

kafedristoran · July 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Players are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The reason the other campaigns were shut is because Vengeance is a test environment. ZOS moved Vengeance to Live to get better data. To get that they need player numbers. The boycott by a section of the PvP community, who don't seem to get that Vengeance as it stands is not the finished product, forced ZOS' hand to get the numbers they need to test.

I pay for a game to play content I like, not to be a free tester for a multi-billion dollar company. If you think it's normal practice to take away content people like, then the problem is with you.