Item Set Testing in Vengeance

Jaavaa · July 20

Last Week they say: This includes Mythics, Monster masks and shoulders, and five- or three-piece set "final bonuses." Other stats from Item Set bonuses will not be active during this test, even though the UI displays them as enabled“

Patch Notes don’t say anything about Mythics and Monster Sets. Whats the truth now?

NovelliESO · July 20

Stamicka wrote: »

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hi All, we've seen some folks asking for clarification in the thread and wondering if these Vengeance tests are an indication that we might permanently close Gray Host in the future.

To be clear, there are no plans to do that.

It doesn’t matter what you say unfortunately.

These people will continue to say that you will. It’s been very clear that you wouldn’t close it and I’ve literally shown people quotes that indicated that Grey Host would not be closed.

[snip]

Insulting people calling them deranged and hysterical yet you lack the ability to understand this isn't a concrete answer to anything.
[edited to remove quote]

LarsS · July 20

Moster set and Mythic works for me.

YandereGirlfriend · July 20

aetherix8 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

The vast majority of us in GH and BR do not care the slightest bit that vengeance is around, you will see a very small portion those players advocate for it to be closed. For whatever reason though, you will see plenty of those in vengeance or those who advocate for it, also advocate for the closing of GH and/or BR.

You said at the beginning of your post that you don't particularly like reading this forum. You might therefore have missed those many, many, many posts asking for the closing of Vengeance, stopping it completely, and abandoning it as an environment to test performance issues in Cyrodiil. There are far fewer users asking for the closure of GH on this forum alone than there are those demanding the total cancellation of Vengeance.

As for the live server, I could pretty much reverse your sentence. The vast majority of us in Vengeance do not care the slightest bit that GH and BR are around, and there are extremly few advocating for them to be closed (only BR). People simply do not care at all.

I understand you play GH every day or so. I play Vengeance every day or so, and I currently happen to have all the time in the world, so I'm there during different hours. Nobody at all is ever saying that GH should be closed and Vengeance should be the only campaign. We just don't talk about GH that much as there's no reason whatsoever to do so. We have bigger concerns than GH, namely the ridiculous AoE caps, the lack of detection pots, and the infamous faction swappers.

But perhaps Vengeance players on PC NA act differently from Vengeance players on PC EU. I can only speak for my platform.

Correct but this has nothing to do with the current argument and reality of what is going on. The players in GH do not care at all about vengeance existing alongside it, until it means they have to suffer because of it.

I strongly recommend that you go through those many Vengeance-related threads and read them thoroughly, because what you say simply fails to connect with what GH players just keep repeating. GH players care a lot about Vengeance and want it aborted because according to them, it is taking resources away from GH. What they fail to realize is that Vengeance is just a test environment, not a campaign in its own right, and that all changes tested on Vengeance servers are meant to deliver performant, large-scale PvP to the dedicated player base that's been asking for it for many years. The next test with item sets should make it clear to anyone paying attention. Despite the fact that Vengeance players enjoy a ruleset without item sets, these sets will now be added to the campaign for testing, and if the results are good, they will eventually be added permanently. This is to appease the GH crowd alone.

NovelliESO wrote: »

These two entities should not interact at all. GH and BR players alike do not care about it existing, but when the devs have to close GH and BR multiple times over the course of it's testing, the call to end it altogether is not a one to one comparison. Vengeance is never closed to do testing for GH, only the opposite is true, so it would make logical sense for people to want vengeance to be closed if it is impacting GH, but when neither intersect at all vengeance players still advocate for the closing of GH and BR even though it has zero impact on them. GH and BR players only care when they are impacted, that's the difference.

Vengeance is the testbed for GH and for this reason it does and will "interact". Or rather, it is a testing environment for a future performant, large-scale PvP that will be neither Vengeance nor GH, but it will be something as close as possible to GH rather than to what Vengeance is right now. So when you say that GH and BR players only care when they are impacted, it basically means they care 100% of the time, either because for a brief period Vengeance is the only campaign available so it can be stress-tested, or because it takes resources away from GH/BR (this second reason being completely misjudged).

Nothing about what you wrote is true, but go off I guess. Vengeance only exists as a test for GH? Surely.

Some more precision: Vengeance only exists as a test environment for a future performant, large-scale Cyrodiil that will be different from both today's GH and today's Vengeance. Perhaps GH as you know it will remain, perhaps not; that remains to be seen. Vengeance as we know it now will not remain.

But it is fair to say that Vengeance tests can help the devs isolate factors that have the biggest negative impact on performance. Once the devs have tested all their hypotheses, they might modify the GH ruleset so the server performs better and allows for increased pop caps. There is absolutely no reason to keep GH unchanged once clear answers as to what can make it perform better are obtained.

GH players don't want a diluted gameplay experience compared to what they enjoy now, though.

They want access to the full suite of build options and systems and they are more than willing to accept certain performance issues in order to retain that.

In other words, the status quo is superior to a more performant Grey Host that achieves that performance by nerfing the game's existing systems and rules.

Stamicka · July 20

Where is the feedback thread for this test?

It is extremely buggy for me, I somehow have a Yew lightning staff permanently equipped to my off hand weapon even though I am trying to dual wield regular 1h weapons. Item sets in my inventory are constantly vanishing. It is very unclear what actually works and what doesn't. I never once saw a rallying cry proc so I took it off. I wanted to equip 1pc crit monster sets and those don't work, but a full 2pc monster set will work.

This is just a bad idea. I don't know why there's not more clarity about what actually works in here. Even then, the average person might not even check those communication channels. When someone enters Vengeance, they should know their options.

Time to kill is still ridiculously high and the overall balance is bizarre.

Population is low so I haven't been able to get a gauge for performance yet.

This just isn't good though. I know the intention is to test performance, but the bugginess, the lack of clarity, the weird balance all make this hard to even participate in and this is coming from someone who was willing to participate to begin with.

Edit: just noticed that rallying doesn’t work because one of the conditionals is that battle spirit must be active, and there’s no battle spirit in vengeance. Any similar sets will have the same problem. This also may mean that “while battle spirit is not active” sets may work…

Stamicka · July 20

I still don’t see an official feedback thread which is very odd considering this whole thing is to get feedback from the players.

Anyway, not sure what channels you’re monitoring, but I’ll post this from another thread I commented on:

Stamicka wrote: »

Alright I’ve now logged off. This is laggy. If the question for this test is “can we support large scale PvP with sets enabled” the answer is no, no you can’t.

At this point the environment manages to be MORE inaccessible than Grey Host is because people don’t know what to run. No one seems to know what works for sure. If someone unknowingly happens to be in stuff that isn’t working, they may go against someone who’s sets are working. Then it’s right back to imbalance and players being gimped without realizing.

I don’t even think this needs a week of testing. I’m lagging well below pop lock, so I think whatever data you collect will tell a very clear story and answer the question you’re trying to answer very quickly.

LarsS · July 20

Did run with our group on Vengeance, we had no problems with lag. The best version of Vengeance yet. A group makes quite a difference, it is no longer mostly zerg. Try it out if you havent.

ceruulean · July 21

It seems sets like simple sets like Rattlecage don't work, but proc sets like Maarselok, Vicious Death, and Rush of Agony do. This is kinda... Not cool. Lol. For example, Rattle Cage gives the Major Sorcery buff, and spell damage increases to 6k as expected, but the skills do not do more damage. Skills don't scale off weapon damage, they seem to have fixed values. But master's dual wield scales twin slashes. [snip]

I think introducing item sets makes the class imbalance even worse. NB can burst people from 70% to 0 with soul tether bow proc, but no other class can. This is with Balorgh, Daedric Trickery, Monomyth, Night Mother gaze, and crit resist perk, so my character isn't even built for max damage. 24k soul tether crit, 25k bow proc crit. I have been trying to 1vX on other classes like plar and necro, and NB is laughably easy to kill people with compared to every other class except maybe DK, and this was the case before gear set bonuses were enabled. Without dawnbreaker offering a stun, no other class has an equal chance to compete with soul tether. It's just cooked. It feels like 80% of Cyrodiil is DK and NB and other classes don't exist.
[edited for profanity bypass]

ZOS_Icy · July 21

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Vitgar · July 21

We need a list of sets that work / sets that don't work.

Kickimanjaro · July 21

Yeah, this feels more and more like an intentional slight.

They did not tell us about this test in the roadmap previously.
They did not put it on the PTS.
They did not tell us which sets do not work, even though they mentioned having a list.

If you're going to have us as your unpaid quality assurance testers while you take away our game, work with us some more... But until then, understand how this feels.

It feels like you want us gone.

edit: I'm aware some of these have already been called out as oversights, but I still feel it important to share the complaint.

LadyGP · July 21

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hi All, we've seen some folks asking for clarification in the thread and wondering if these Vengeance tests are an indication that we might permanently close Gray Host in the future.

To be clear, there are no plans to do that.

To be fair, there never is a plan to do things... until there is a plan to do them.

reazea · July 21

LadyGP wrote: »

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hi All, we've seen some folks asking for clarification in the thread and wondering if these Vengeance tests are an indication that we might permanently close Gray Host in the future.

To be clear, there are no plans to do that.

To be fair, there never is a plan to do things... until there is a plan to do them.

We have to look at how this situation has progressed so far and judge by that. We can't rely on them telling us what they're doing, we have to look at what they're doing now and what they've done in the past.

All data points suggests that ZOS is making every effort to, eventually, remove GH. As someone who plays ESO for the PvP I will never again be helping ZOS with vengeance as it's a direct threat to the longevity of GH based on the evidence we have to work with.

I mean, just look at how tone deaf ZOS is to the please to keep GH open yet they remove GH from the game anyway without any regard to those of us who log in to play GH. ZOS has effectively taken our game away yet again this week with no compensation or explanation.

Ryuuhime · July 21

Some players are somehow using Coldharbour siege

@ZOS_Kevin I'm not sure if this is intended, since I can't slot cold fire siege myself.

Usureki · July 21

Feedback kind-of related to Vengance (idk if this is the right thread):

We just had a guild run in Imperial City (CP) and it was severely stuttering and lagging quite a lot, not just for me, but for literally all of our party members. Once I couldn't see what or whom I was ganked by, just saw the death screen. Since IC worked flawlessly before this enforced Vengance testing became a thing I suspect that there is a connection.

tomofhyrule · July 21

Ryuuhime wrote: »

Some players are somehow using Coldharbour siege

ZOS_Kevin I'm not sure if this is intended, since I can't slot cold fire siege myself.

You can get coldfire in Vengeance.

You don’t start with it. You have to specifically earn it from doing cyrodiil dolmens (which is harder since there’s only one active and you need to rediscover them every time you go in)

Ryuuhime · July 21

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ryuuhime wrote: »

Some players are somehow using Coldharbour siege

ZOS_Kevin I'm not sure if this is intended, since I can't slot cold fire siege myself.

You can get coldfire in Vengeance.

You don’t start with it. You have to specifically earn it from doing cyrodiil dolmens (which is harder since there’s only one active and you need to rediscover them every time you go in)

That's good to know! I had no idea that it was possible.

Love2Gam3rGirl · July 21

React wrote: »

Is this test going to help pinpoint the performance issues that translate to Grey Host? Will that data be used to benefit Grey Host? The population indicates vengeance is not popular whatsoever amongst most PVP players, and as someone who has no interest in vengeance, continuing to participate in tests which will not be used to better my preferred PVP environment feels pointless.

Further, enabling these sets within the vengeance ruleset feels absolutely unhinged. How exactly is that going to work? Everything is standardized in vengeance, but suddenly we have rallying cry, vicious death, balorgh, acuity, null arca, monomyth, etc? That sounds like it is going to be an miserable experience.

And this person is completely correct. It's MISERABLE for a healer with someone using monomyth. I'm getting hit with recurring 12K+ back-to-back hits. 4-5 of those and I"m done wihtout being able to hit vigor fast enough even with wings to get away. I can't heal anyone else fast enough. And VD in the game at all at this point is absolutely insane. Good when sub/class mastery wasn't a thing, not so much anymore.

I even noticed a burning debuff stuck on in Vengeance last night, which is saying a lot. I need this test to be for a reason, not whatebever this is. They brought in the absolute worst sets into a place where they really don't belong. What is there to help protect the support from these sets? Nothing at all.

Love2Gam3rGirl · July 21

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Nobody is playing Vengeance. Nobody is asking for more Vengeance development.

That is inherently false.

You’re right, 1 person is asking for further vengeance development. My bad.

To their point, each bar in Vengeance is 100 people vs 33 (35?) on Grayhost. So while it might look dead, it's likely not at all.

tomofhyrule · July 21

Love2Gam3rGirl wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Nobody is playing Vengeance. Nobody is asking for more Vengeance development.

That is inherently false.

You’re right, 1 person is asking for further vengeance development. My bad.

To their point, each bar in Vengeance is 100 people vs 33 (35?) on Grayhost. So while it might look dead, it's likely not at all.

Each bar in Vengeance is up to 100 people.

If there are 99 people on from that alliance, it'll be one bar. If there are 3 people on from that alliance, it'll be one bar.

It might look dead and not be at all. But it might also look dead and totally be dead.

Love2Gam3rGirl · July 21

I wonder if this is what you wanted when adding sets?

AdonisJorge · July 22

A feedback, played Veng yesterday and liked a lot, had no performance issues and is more easy to capture a point without being smashed by the guards when solo, the problem is that what sets works and what does not

alternatelder · July 22

Having spent the last few hours in Vengeance today, I can say, it actually isn't as dead as the few loud people here are saying, decent sized fights. This is PS/NA, btw. All I can say is that the sets seem to bring the lag, the bar swap issues (well, actually that was still prevalent since the first test) and skills not firing. I must have hit my ult 3 times each time I wanted to use it (beserker, if that helps). Slightly enjoyable up until I ran into our first DC, RoA player. I immediately left. All in all, it's the longest I've stayed in Vengeance.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 22

alternatelder wrote: »

Having spent the last few hours in Vengeance today, I can say, it actually isn't as dead as the few loud people here are saying, decent sized fights. This is PS/NA, btw. All I can say is that the sets seem to bring the lag, the bar swap issues (well, actually that was still prevalent since the first test) and skills not firing. I must have hit my ult 3 times each time I wanted to use it (beserker, if that helps). Slightly enjoyable up until I ran into our first DC, RoA player. I immediately left. All in all, it's the longest I've stayed in Vengeance.

I don’t think many people are claiming that this Vengeance test is literally dead. The point is that it is failing to reach the population levels Zenimax clearly wants these tests to achieve.

On PC NA, the campaign has barely reached three bars on a single faction—EP—once. During prime time, it has generally remained at two bars across the board, dropping to one bar for most of the rest of the day.

With every possible incentive being thrown at it, and with Vengeance being the only campaign available, of course it is unlikely to be completely empty. But that is an incredibly low standard. Zenimax wants to test the campaign under massive-battle conditions, yet it is not even reaching half the population it was designed to hold. The tests are failing to attract enough players to create the conditions they are supposedly meant to evaluate, making the resulting data far less valuable.

When the only available campaign still cannot consistently reach three bars during prime time, the sentiment from the playerbase could not be clearer.

Just bring Gray Host back already.

aetherix8 · July 22

After two days of testing, I can say with confidence that proc effect item sets have a negative impact on performance. So far, on PC EU, we're at a stable two bars primetime, and occasionally a faction hits three bars. I've experienced far worse rubberbanding than during previous tests when the campaign was full. Previously, it would only happen while riding with the zerg from keep to keep. Now, however, it happens frequently during fights, and even after a fight while my character is standing still and a few other players run past. There is as well the issue of skills failing to fire and the need to activate them several times. This makes the gameplay far less enjoyable, especially now that, as a Vengeance regular, I'm used to fast and smooth combat. It seems that the only way to add item sets to Vengeance would be to create simplified versions.

SugaComa · July 22

Roztlin45 wrote: »

The LIVE server is not for TESTING. This TEST should be on the PTS not the supposed finished product. The hubris here is out of control! Shoe horning people into vengeance is NOT the way!! NO matter what you do to force things it only make matters worse. I'm fine with people having Vengeance or not. We have always had difference types. But the real issue here is :
Turning off Grey host and running "test" on the live server is a terrible move and will only effect the players (customers) attitude toward the game. Reverse course , Iceberg ahead!

it's a great move as this means us console players get a day in development pc players have had ten years or ruining this game with PTS (Private Training Server)

Vitgar · July 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You can get coldfire in Vengeance.
You don’t start with it. You have to specifically earn it from doing cyrodiil dolmens (which is harder since there’s only one active and you need to rediscover them every time you go in)

It means I need to farm a new CFB every time I log in to Vengeance?

Thrasher91604 · July 22

No you keep it when you return to Cyrodiil.

Triipzzz · July 22

I've spent 3 hours testing which sets do and don't work to get additional buffs not available on vengeance skills and only about half work. Rattlecage does not work because of the cap on wep/spell dmg and Rallying Cry does not work because battle spirit is not active in your character sheet to name a couple. I don't care about particular sets working but it really grinds my gears to see you admit 2-4 bonuses don't work but have them highlighted as they do and then some 5 piece bonuses don't despite being highlighted. Monster sets and 2-3 piece sets are a complete miss too. I know its a test but what the actual ***, do you not care about the quality of your work.

Other issues frustrating me are the fact you cant simply change gear in Vengeance. Removing an item will cause it to disappear and you cant even view other items in your invent so every time you want to swap you have to leave!

If this isn't bad enough you still cant put down more than one siege. You do realise the keeps have siege limits right? RIGHT?!? That means even if we have 300 people at a keep we can only put 30 siege down. Nobody is on my play time (OCE) and I'm sitting here siegeing a door with 1 ballista.

Forget about it, what are we even doing at this point. This half baked piece of *** is barely any different to the last failed test and still has nobody playing it. If you really want to test it rip the training wheels off and offer us more. The fact you put all that effort into developing special loadouts and every classes reworked skills in here but have only managed a DK and WW rework in 9 months is embarrassing.

alternatelder · July 22

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

Having spent the last few hours in Vengeance today, I can say, it actually isn't as dead as the few loud people here are saying, decent sized fights. This is PS/NA, btw. All I can say is that the sets seem to bring the lag, the bar swap issues (well, actually that was still prevalent since the first test) and skills not firing. I must have hit my ult 3 times each time I wanted to use it (beserker, if that helps). Slightly enjoyable up until I ran into our first DC, RoA player. I immediately left. All in all, it's the longest I've stayed in Vengeance.

I don’t think many people are claiming that this Vengeance test is literally dead. The point is that it is failing to reach the population levels Zenimax clearly wants these tests to achieve.

On PC NA, the campaign has barely reached three bars on a single faction—EP—once. During prime time, it has generally remained at two bars across the board, dropping to one bar for most of the rest of the day.

With every possible incentive being thrown at it, and with Vengeance being the only campaign available, of course it is unlikely to be completely empty. But that is an incredibly low standard. Zenimax wants to test the campaign under massive-battle conditions, yet it is not even reaching half the population it was designed to hold. The tests are failing to attract enough players to create the conditions they are supposedly meant to evaluate, making the resulting data far less valuable.

When the only available campaign still cannot consistently reach three bars during prime time, the sentiment from the playerbase could not be clearer.

Just bring Gray Host back already.

Plenty of people are repeating "it's dead" over and over. We haven't hit primetime days/hours. You're one of the few making these remarks before it even went live. And as a reminder, again, nearly 3 bars on one faction is close to GH pop cap. Give it a rest already.