1) The rewards can be earned through any PvP and are not tied to Vengeance.

2) Vengeance, to a lot of PvPers, feels like a waste of time. ZOS has come out and said already that they cannot get Grey Host or "regular PvP" to be performant anymore, and that a simplified rule set is the only way to do that. The problem is that Vengeance does not resemble the rest of the game in the slightest, and the concessions needed to make the server performant make the environment (for most PvPers) boring, unfun, and much too reliant on numbers rather than coordination or skill expression.

For most PvPers, the time ZOS has spent (and continues to spend) on Vengeance would be better spent on the "mid-sized PvP" zone they teased, or by revamping more performant environments they already have such as Imperial City.

Main reason: They disabled the other campaign(s) altogether.

Reason 2: People want to run their werewolf/dk/broken subclass build

Imo Vengeance provides a good place for casuals who don't want to dedicate 1000 hours perfecting their pvp skills/characters or copying meta. Just come in and play on equal footing with everyone else.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

I don’t play pvp but noticed a lot of people hating on Vengeance, I have no clue what it is though.

I seen it has a lot of rewards for leveling up so why is everyone complaining about it? The rewards actually have me considering to give it a try.

Nothing wrong with Hawaiian pizza. Like everything in life, some people will love it while others will hate it.

But when you force a pizza place to remove the other pizzas from the menu and offer only Hawaiian pizza, even the people who love this pizza will probably object to the decisions made by management.

Problem is that Vengeance is not even a pineapple pizza

It’s pizza dough. Raw. Not even cooked yet, let alone with any toppings on it.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

1) The rewards can be earned through any PvP and are not tied to Vengeance.

2) Vengeance, to a lot of PvPers, feels like a waste of time. ZOS has come out and said already that they cannot get Grey Host or "regular PvP" to be performant anymore, and that a simplified rule set is the only way to do that. The problem is that Vengeance does not resemble the rest of the game in the slightest, and the concessions needed to make the server performant make the environment (for most PvPers) boring, unfun, and much too reliant on numbers rather than coordination or skill expression.

For most PvPers, the time ZOS has spent (and continues to spend) on Vengeance would be better spent on the "mid-sized PvP" zone they teased, or by revamping more performant environments they already have such as Imperial City.

ZOS spent over 6 years trying and failing to improve standard Cyrodiil performance.

They've spent less than 2 years on Vengeance, and it's already much better than its first iteration. And it entirely fixes the performance issues that have plagued standard Cyrodiil for a decade. It comes at a heavy cost, but ZOS seems committed to alleviate that cost as much as they can.

I'm sorry, but I just profoundly disagree with the idea that time would be "better spent" on standard Cyrodiil. We have 6 years of evidence for why that's a bad idea. That is more than enough.

Luneca wrote: »

Ordinator199 wrote: »

Main reason: They disabled the other campaign(s) altogether.

Reason 2: People want to run their werewolf/dk/broken subclass build

Imo Vengeance provides a good place for casuals who don't want to dedicate 1000 hours perfecting their pvp skills/characters or copying meta. Just come in and play on equal footing with everyone else.

Reason 2 is simply untrue. I play in Gray Host with Hist Whisperer and Sithis, two useless sets. Not that it matters anyway because I go there and just fire siege.

Vengeance isn't liked by me precisely because it's not a fair environment. There's no chaos element to equalize things, and damage caps make a numerical advantage even stronger than it is on Gray Host.

At least in Gray Host I can fire siege alone and wipe out 25+ AD. I did that Sunday btw. No idea why those guys don't use siege shield. I even warned them before I started firing siege.

Can't do that in Vengeance, and there's no real equalizing factor to prevent or address a massive number of players besides numbers.

Pretending there is skillful play there is just silly, esp. now with sets enabled.

The present test with active proc effects and mytics, give groups a good chance against the zerg. We were running rather casual group on Ven yesterday and we had a clear andvantage over zergs.

Luneca wrote: »

Ordinator199 wrote: »

Main reason: They disabled the other campaign(s) altogether.

Reason 2: People want to run their werewolf/dk/broken subclass build

Imo Vengeance provides a good place for casuals who don't want to dedicate 1000 hours perfecting their pvp skills/characters or copying meta. Just come in and play on equal footing with everyone else.

Reason 2 is simply untrue. I play in Gray Host with Hist Whisperer and Sithis, two useless sets. Not that it matters anyway because I go there and just fire siege.

Vengeance isn't liked by me precisely because it's not a fair environment. There's no chaos element to equalize things, and damage caps make a numerical advantage even stronger than it is on Gray Host.

At least in Gray Host I can fire siege alone and wipe out 25+ AD. I did that Sunday btw. No idea why those guys don't use siege shield. I even warned them before I started firing siege.

Can't do that in Vengeance, and there's no real equalizing factor to prevent or address a massive number of players besides numbers.

Pretending there is skillful play there is just silly, esp. now with sets enabled.

Yes, using a siege to press a button to kill 25+ people busy skirmishing from high up far away and then run off to a wayshrine when you see you can't win anymore is very skillful play indeed. /s I understand the criticism against Vengeance, but this example shows why some people actually like it.

Marto wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

1) The rewards can be earned through any PvP and are not tied to Vengeance.

2) Vengeance, to a lot of PvPers, feels like a waste of time. ZOS has come out and said already that they cannot get Grey Host or "regular PvP" to be performant anymore, and that a simplified rule set is the only way to do that. The problem is that Vengeance does not resemble the rest of the game in the slightest, and the concessions needed to make the server performant make the environment (for most PvPers) boring, unfun, and much too reliant on numbers rather than coordination or skill expression.

For most PvPers, the time ZOS has spent (and continues to spend) on Vengeance would be better spent on the "mid-sized PvP" zone they teased, or by revamping more performant environments they already have such as Imperial City.

ZOS spent over 6 years trying and failing to improve standard Cyrodiil performance.

They've spent less than 2 years on Vengeance, and it's already much better than its first iteration. And it entirely fixes the performance issues that have plagued standard Cyrodiil for a decade. It comes at a heavy cost, but ZOS seems committed to alleviate that cost as much as they can.

I'm sorry, but I just profoundly disagree with the idea that time would be "better spent" on standard Cyrodiil. We have 6 years of evidence for why that's a bad idea. That is more than enough.

I never once said that time would be better spent on standard Cyrodiil. You are putting words in my mouth. Did you even read the comment you quoted in your reply?

I stated that time would be better spent on either the new mid-size zone they teased (likely something similar to New World's Outpost Rush) or revamping Imperial City, a zone that is known to be much more performant, even when pop-locked during events.

I can get behind Vengeance having been made permanent. But if it's going to be permanent, stop using it as a testing ground. While I'm loathe to use the term "not fair", in this case using the Live servers as a testing ground is not fair to the players. Especially when testing becomes so regular it's no longer surprising.

*Inhales*

Speak for myself purely though I know much of these sentiments are echoed by the PvP community at large.

At its core, the mission to improve cyro performance is something nearly everyone can support and get behind, this is the goal with vengeance. The community has cried about performance for years and years, and vengeance is an attempt that them stripping things down and building from the ground up.

It’s delivery, everything about the combat feels wrong due to the stripped down skills, which is part of that improving performance goal mentioned above, simplification. Combat is clunky, skill expression is limited, stats and abilities are homogeneous, and the pace is also slower, cast times, cooldowns, less weaving with clunky skills. A decent pvper will still perform well, but the limitations and stark differences are quite unattractive and it feels like a different game almost.

For me it comes down to the lack of depth of the gameplay. Vengeance removes so many layers of builds, sets, abilities, passives, morphs, stat allocation, movement speed, mundus etc etc. Which for me, making builds is the heart and soul of this game. Limiting that to the degree that you see in vengeance quickly makes things less enjoyable. I’m not invested in my template toon, so to speak. And I know the simplicity is the point, but it’s not for me.

The combat of eso at its core is really something special due to its level of nuance and skill expression: 1s ability, animation canceling, weaving, the interaction of skills stats, passives, sets etc etc. It plays like a high octane fighter game in its pacing and there really isn’t anything like it that also has the build variety and depth, current meta and balancing issues aside. This allows for a higher skill ceiling that vengeance artificially lowers, with better performance sure.

To me, I’d prefer the status quo combat system that yes is imperfect but just plays better and has a better flow to it. Even if it means having performance issues.

The main complaint though, is the forcing of vengeance by shutting down GH to get the data and feedback necessary.

People have a limited amount of playtime to do the things they want to do. If I have a weekend to watch x show on my x+ streaming subscription, but it’s decided to take that show down for a weekend to play the spin-off to promote it and/or gather feedback, I don’t want to watch it, I’m annoyed. I may or may not watch it if it’s the only thing available, but it’s not what I’m here for, it’s not why I turned on my tv.

In summary, vengeance is too much of a departure from the combat in eso that I and many others have come to enjoy, and that has made me a long time player since launch. It has the skin, but not the meat and bones of what’s necessary for it to feel good. If it will work its way back to the current combat system while improving performance I’m here for that. But don’t force it upon players. It isn’t fun to have your favorite thing to do in the game disabled. That’s why people hate on it

I'm convinced ZOS is maneuvering for an excuse to remove GH from the game. I was willing to participate in vengeance when it was just a test, but not anymore. The focus has changed. These resources going to develop vengeance should be going to improve GH.

It's ZOS that has pitted GH players against vengeance players. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Most active PvP Players are so deeply into GH, that they will fiercely defend it from anything that in their perception could even remotely be a threat. And Vengeance is a threat, because what it effectively does is creating a separation of the PvP and PvE environments of the Elder Scrolls Online. This would solve a great many balancing issues for the Devs. This isn't debatable.

The context is that most active PvP players are long time players that mostly started 6 to 8 years ago and are still giving the majority, if not all, of their playtime to it.

But that dedication can turn into something else entirely that isn't healthy anymore, when you constantly live with the fear that your entire focus playstyle is being deleted.

Fear is the way to the dark side. Hatred is just a stepstone along the way.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Or you know, Vengeance just isn't fun because target caps promote Zerg v Zerg.

Obviously not. If it was just unfun, every PvP player could just shrug it off, walk away and leave Vengeance be.

They do not. They attack it left, right and centre. And that is proof that there is something else. Something emotional.

Well, I always play on gray host but I'm having so much fun in vengeance,sadly there's like 15 people playing on ps5 EU.
I get why most people hate it, lot of people were too comfortable getting carried by classes/inflated tankyness

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Most active PvP Players are so deeply into GH, that they will fiercely defend it from anything that in their perception could even remotely be a threat. And Vengeance is a threat, because what it effectively does is creating a separation of the PvP and PvE environments of the Elder Scrolls Online. This would solve a great many balancing issues for the Devs. This isn't debatable.

The context is that most active PvP players are long time players that mostly started 6 to 8 years ago and are still giving the majority, if not all, of their playtime to it.

But that dedication can turn into something else entirely that isn't healthy anymore, when you constantly live with the fear that your entire focus playstyle is being deleted.

Fear is the way to the dark side. Hatred is just a stepstone along the way.

1. No one lives with fear that GH is going to be deleted. ZOS will make that decision on their own and people will accept or move on from the game. What they are doing now is letting ZOS know that it's a losing bet for them to make from the start.

2. Vengeance hasn't solved ANY balancing issues. Zero. None. Zilch. Tell me, has Vengeance added a way to counter stealth reliably yet? How about the strength of NB and DK there compared to everything else? The power of DoTs?

How about the bigger stack winning nearly every time because of the caps? Etc. ?

I have no idea why people keep pretending it's balanced. I am mediocre in Gray Host 99.9% of the time, except when I am firing siege. And I can't even do that in Vengeance because of artificial caps, neutered damage, and simplification -- all benefitting an opposing group even better than HoT stacking and garbage like esoteric on Gray Host.

Sets aren't balanced in the slightest either, even proc sets. And that's by design so you cannot stack them.

I've gone to Vengeance and locating the roll and block buttons allowed me to easily crush more than one person when outnumbered, until the cap got me "capped." Though it's true earlier I did win a 1v10 thanks to being carried by DK.

I don't think ZOS cares about balance in PvP. If they did, they would listen to PTS input. They would listen to people's complaints about mythics in PvP and not wait months to disable it. They would actually have never put mythics into PvP, tbh.

What it seems like they are trying to instead is to make Fortnite in ESO. They probably think that by making game modes similar to the current trending games, they can attract more people with simplification. But that isn't going to bring more people to ESO's PvP, and it won't bring more people to the game and that's because balance issues exist at more than one level; even a technical one.

The game's poor performance has a direct impact on how well you can play. I play at 20-40 ping in Gray Host 99.9% of the time for the past 3 years. And it definitely gives a massive advantage vs. someone lagging. Especially when healing, which is why I rarely do it even though EP gets destroyed all the time on PC NA. I can just heal them and solve that issue, but by doing that instead of using siege then it shifts balance in a way that the score will move far too great in the favor of EP.

Okay, but we're talking about Vengeance. Take the 1v10 mentioned above that I did earlier. I wasn't fighting noobs who had no idea what they were doing, I was fighting people that would destroy me in Gray Host because I wear trash gear in Gray Host and only fire siege.

Those guys had 0 probability of defeating me because I was playing DK, had a better connection (if you have low ping then you know the game lets you get away with rolling and blocking a LOT of stuff that you cannot normally do at higher ping), and the overall effect of rolling is too pronounced in Vengeance to the point that if you can sustain it, might as well be god mode.

And I can sustain it even easier when there's a cap to how much damage that can be outputted to me because of the "balance" you speak of , a cap to how many actions in a unit of time can be taken, etc. -- it lets me know that there is no universe where I will die in an instant of time v. opponents while at range or medium distance.

And you know, that "no universe where I will die" is exactly the kind of thing people complain about in Gray Host and why they say balance sucks there. Yet, here the power that is being utilized is inherent in the system, rather than being linked to a build.

That means that it should be possible to actually become stronger than in Gray Host and exploit the system in a way that allows worse builds to be made and worse balance. And you know what? I was wearing trash and did that. Literal trash sets and accomplished that thanks to the system and ping carrying me.

And unlike you, or others that might call it skillful, I don't think it's a good thing.