Seriously? Again? C'mon bro...

Yes. Heart of flame and wings on dk js what I would tweak if I was looking to nerf. Just try like heart of flame restores 5% per tick instead of 15% and wings mitigate 15-25% not 50%

As for warewolf, having major protection on the pack leader along with the heal that restores stamina and health and is based on health amount is what could use some tweaks.

meekmiko wrote: »

I'm honestly thinking anyone saying no to this does NOT actively play PvP, because there's absolutely no way you can say DK, especially DK, isn't downright overpowered right now in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds. No class even comes close to DK right now.

Naturally, theres people that voted No as a non DK main, that I see log on as DK everyday. I knew that would happen but I still wanted to see if the rest of us outvoted them lol.

This is actually a good exemplification of why ZOS should NOT listen to the community. There seems to be no genuine middle ground. I dont see why this wouldnt just turn into ZOS babysitting changes and reciprocating imbalance across every class infinitely.

The kinds of decisions needed to fix the balance require polarity within the community. This was the same issue with my werewolf post. You could tell by the topics people were bringing up in response to my post, whether they were using werewolf and coming to defend it, or if theyd had enough, and came to the forum to see if they were the only ones consistently losing to, and not able to kill werewolves.

It is not small things that people are complaining about with DK. Just about every skill is overloaded with buffs. Proc whip has the highest weapon damage coefficient of any direct damage skill - also has access to minor brutality. It is supposedly the premier melee class but has access to the most powerful, and irreplicable debuff to projectiles found in the game. Its simply a jack of all trades and the people that use just think that theyre really good, they dont believe its a balance issue. It is the ultimate delusion.

You could quite literally go through DK skill by skill, and compare the to any other class, and DK will have the better more powerful version.

The Uninvited wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Yes. Heart of flame and wings on dk js what I would tweak if I was looking to nerf. Just try like heart of flame restores 5% per tick instead of 15% and wings mitigate 15-25% not 50%

As for warewolf, having major protection on the pack leader along with the heal that restores stamina and health and is based on health amount is what could use some tweaks.

But the 50% mitigation on wings was always there before the rework, and before that (long time ago) it even fully reflected projectiles. Still, DK's wouldn't slot it with the 50% mitigation. The reason you see it used now, is because they added CC immunity/speed boost.

Still not quite understanding how the class that is supposed to reign supreme in melee gets the biggest, and only, in class reduction to ranged attacks. Wings had always been op, and has no place in pvp unless they will make it a buff accessible to all through gear sets.

Wings is a 4 in 1 skill, that effectively serves as a force multiplier due to it taking 100% more damage for ranged attacks to get a dk to health low enough health to force a dk on the defensive. It gives people building a kit on dk a dramatic decrease in opportunity cost when considering spec’ ing into offense (which is amplified by passive minor brutality proc).

Flat out, on an objective basis, no other class (maybe barring sorcer) sees such a dramatic amplification in power like the DK does.

The natural counters to how powerful DK is right now should be flame resistance, ranged engagement and mobility. All of which are negated through non linear and irreplicable buffs through class skills.

It would be different if every class carried its own toolset with their own class specific buffs and or debuffs but that is not, and has never been the case. Dk has always been disproportionately powerful.

A couple of overloaded skills for example:

Leap
- gap closer
- High dmg big aoe
- Massive shield
- front loaded crowd control that allows a followup skill to be casted almost instantly
- Relatively cheap cost

HOF
- Strong sustain
- Solid heal
- Delayed damage aoe burst

Corrosive armor
- Strong damage reduction
- Strong aoe Dot
- gives full penetration

Wings
- aoe CC
- strong projectile damage reduction
- Movement speed boost
- Immunity to snares and immobilizations

Proc Whip
- highest damage coefficient of any direct damage skill in the game including ultimates (2.1 per 1 wpn/ spell dmg - closest is bow proc at 1.8)

No other class has access to skills on par with this, and none are really even close. The only way to deal with this is to do enough damage to make dk immediately go on the defensive or to block all of the whip procs. Even then, to be able to sustain blocking all of the damage you have to have a strong heal that can be used while you block, or you have to spec into a little bit of block cost reduction which comes with the opportunity cost of sustain, damage or survivability.

I don’t really want to vote. I main a magplar but play dk from time to time. DK plays really well since the update, it’s very strong and balanced which I’d expect after such a big review.

Ultimately though because other classes haven’t been touched they are quite far behind. Especially when I play magplar there’s a huge gulf in toolkit.

Realistically I’d much rather classes be brought up to DK levels though than trying to nerf them down as it defeats the point of the rework for me.

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Realistically I’d much rather classes be brought up to DK levels though than trying to nerf them down as it defeats the point of the rework for me.

But that's the problem. Right now the majority of other classes have to sit through getting destroyed by DK for a year, or what could be even more now with ZOS having been cut down like they are, before they're all brought up to compete with DK right now.

Udrath wrote: »

Yeah they’re kinda strong but takes a little bit of effort to be good at it. Gorethief is doing a lot of work for some. Corrosive is good for checks and balances 🤣

Sorc shields is what I dislike, and huge shields in general from just stacking health. Doesn’t help they have the best sustain mastery.

Old school max magicka sorc builds get a pass

A lot of times sorc shields are a massive front for little to no spec into defense. Typically a byproduct of stacking very high magic. High weapon and spell damage does the trick. While I do agree that it is a bit overpowered, its typically highly balanced brawling builds that struggle with sorc the most. If youre missing CC and immobilization in your toolkit, it may seem unkillable. I wish the shieldbreaker set gave a notably larger bonus to damage against shielded enemies (20% instead of 6% imo) to help mitigate this. It feels as if all sets made to counter powerful playstyles like this are never comprable to popular damage sets, which somewhat makes them useless. For example bulwark ruination and shell splitter; they have the idea right, its just that the timeframe that the buff will persist most likely wont prove beneficial when applied in its intended use case, making them another dead set in the game. Maybe increase either the effectiveness of these sets or give them a longer duration that gradually goes away just as it is gradually accrued.

Udrath wrote: »

@Tendo163
I’m fine with ward on your typical brawler build, but I mainly meant the last mastery for sorc on a shield support build. The ones that just cast aoe shields and bone shield. Fighting groups with cross healing was bad enough lol

Yeah it is pretty toxic. I kind of miss when damages were denominated by each respective stat. I feel a similar approach to shields could offer an interesting solution to balance. For example, magic shields either dont, or partially absorb martial damages, and stamina shields either dont, or partially absorb magic damages. Similar to how light and heavy armor penalties work, it could serve to be a more lucrative approach to solving the “1 size fits all” standard that we see in pvp right now. People simply have builds that can effectively do everything and are countered by very little or nothing at all - at that, if there is a counter, its an obscure kit and series of skills that only works against that specific kind of opponent.

Just zoom out and imagine being fresh on the pvp scene playing against shield sorcs, and you just so happen to have say, a brawler, or bow sorc that does primarily martial damage. Even though you are new, you are in an inherently advantageous position since their shield stacking plays either no, or a very limited role against your damage. It would be a natural counter, that would open the gates up to many different playstyles and builds.

Make it happen @ZOS_Kevin

Any class that doesn’t have to build for sustain is over powered. DK, Sorc, WW all can dump sustain. On top of it onslaught letting people dump pen as a stat is extremely unhealthy for the game.

I think DK should be left where it is until the other class reworks happen.

gammelscroll wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

I don’t really want to vote. I main a magplar but play dk from time to time. DK plays really well since the update, it’s very strong and balanced which I’d expect after such a big review.

Ultimately though because other classes haven’t been touched they are quite far behind. Especially when I play magplar there’s a huge gulf in toolkit.

Realistically I’d much rather classes be brought up to DK levels though than trying to nerf them down as it defeats the point of the rework for me.

Dk balanced?? What game are you playing lol

Balanced from the perspective of what the class provides toolkit wise. It has landed right on what zos were aiming for with the rework. The issue is the output of it now is quite a bit ahead of some/most classes now mainly because they have stopped doing much to them until their reworks and they are lacklustre.

The issue I have isn’t the class itself but the approach to phasing the reworks over such a long period of time meaning they are creating this gap in toolkit and output. I wouldn’t mind a tweaking of numbers to lower the output but still believe classes will be behind because DK provides so much that most don’t mainly because of the rework. I wouldn’t want zos to remove parts of the toolkit though as that’s short sighted and defeats the point of the reworks.

I’m essentially saying that this doesn’t get resolved until all classes are reworked and I’d rather Zoe speed that up than spend time re-reworking DKs. Fully aware that won’t happen though

Usureki wrote: »

My main problem with the melee DK brawler playstyle we see in ESO PVP is that the melee vs ranged differences are not properly balanced. Melee is 7 meters, while a typical ranged ability is 22 meters. This is ridiculous, its like saying a shotgun can fire three times further than the reach of my arm. Also that 15 meter difference is easily mitigated by the myriads of abilities we have, yet kiting is only really supported by Sorcs and some minor other abilities.

I don't have an issue with seeing how a melee brawler brawls my face in melee. This is the way it should be. My issue is that it is child's play to maintain being in melee, and not just because maps are created that way, but because of the system implemented.

This is big true. Melee needs to go back to their old melee range. Big problem also is easy access to major expedition and snare removal. Snare removal used to be super limited to foward momentum, nightblade evasion, and medium armor evasion. Now it’s everywhere and makes ranged kinda pointless when it’s so easy to close the distance.

DK will be ok, when his infinite sustain is removed. What makes them op is armor pots and max stats food instead of orzorgas. Basically heart of flame is the only skill that needs to be changed to make dks ok.

Offtopic: sorc and ww infinite sustain should also be adressed the same way.

Militan1404 wrote: »

Compared to the other classes dk is op, but compared to ww dk is allready kind of lacking. Was under the impression that dk was gonna set the standard for classes to come but with ww beeing even stronger, it seems they going for the classes getting stronger and stronger each rework. If this is how its gonna be then class mastrry is allready a huge fail.

Lol what game are you playing? Werewolf are nowhere near dk with dmg output in mind

Panderbander wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Compared to the other classes dk is op, but compared to ww dk is allready kind of lacking. Was under the impression that dk was gonna set the standard for classes to come but with ww beeing even stronger, it seems they going for the classes getting stronger and stronger each rework. If this is how its gonna be then class mastrry is allready a huge fail.

Werewolf is in no way stronger than DK lmao.

Yes they are, the only thing dk got to compete with ww is heart of flame, with out it it wouldnt even be a contest. Try duel a dk with a templar(or any of the other weaker classes) and a ww after, a dk you could kill if strong enough a ww would stalemate at best if your lucky, if not you would pressured down fast.