Let's Talk About Power Creep

Darth_LucSky · June 16

So, it is very well known how much power creep we, players, got in the last years. From slight jumps in power from spellcrafting, to enormous jumps in power brought by subclassing, to even more power with the most recent reworks and class masteries for pure classes. The game never felt easier for lower tier challenges (like vet base dungeons), I dare say even mid tier content (like vet DLC HM dungeons) feels easy with the right group. I know for the highest tier of challenging content (like HM vet DLC trials) people might just be grateful for the spikes in power, but that's not what I want to talk about. I want to talk about the "floor", like ZOS likes to call it.
Yesterday I did the Unhallowed Grave dungeon on vet with my group and the bosses lasted seconds, literally seconds. Kjalnar on HM didn't even got to summon a single skeleton. We ignored his mechanics entirely. I don't think this is very healthy for the game. Although doing high damage thanks to a good group composition is very fun and engaging, it has gotten to a point that challenge for this kind of content is becoming non-existent. I strongly believe the low and mid tier challenge content of this game would benefit a lot from a revamp in difficultly, just like it was done to later dungeons with the introduction of non-end boss HM fights, or maybe even an extra difficult over Veteran (maybe akin to the overland difficulty changes?). Stuff is just dying so fast in these lower tier dungeons, even on the mid tier ones like I mentioned.
What I would like even more is an increase in monster health and damage across all group instanced content in the game (dungeons, trials, arenas. Infinite Archive is fine as is). Maybe roll back the nerf that was done to monsters in U35 (their health was reduced by 5% if I remember correctly), maybe go beyond and increase their health even further. We players got buffed enough already. It is time for our enemies and foes to also become stronger, to keep the game engaging and not make us feel like literal gods.

socialcat98 · June 17

People just steamrolling bosses before most of their mechanics are triggered even on Vet DLC dungeons, Support roles seemingly becoming less necessary except on the hardest of content, etc etc... Power creep has gotten so bad it's becoming quite dangerous for this game.

So yeah I agree with OP. If not a nerf, then a general increase to difficulty in dungeons is sorely needed. Idk how this will look like in specific, perhaps a three-tiered difficulty system? But regardless too much powercreep will make this game worse in the long run. I'm sure of it.

Renato90085 · June 17

nah, highest tier of challenging content is bad too,the dps too high mean mech stack and more hard
like ochm now curse can't clean,because we pull too fast,next curse coming but old curse debuff still work
and some content med player easy pull boss health to mech,have more mini,but not time and enough dps clean them

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 17

Start by removing mythics from the game. And then Subclass.

ceruulean · June 17

Yep it's getting ridiculous. VDSR Twins boss are notorious for being pug killers, but more and more people treat the trial like a normal dungeon. People refuse to join VC and cooperate to learn mechs, people just want to farm it and get it over with. If we wipe because the tanks messed up in execute, and it's not a like the pull was slow or bad at all, people rage quit. Feels super sad. It's gotten to the point that if I tank the trial, I ask the other tank to join VC and explain the new burn strategy because the old strats are not effective anymore.

Soarora · June 17

There is no way that it can stay like this. I keep finding myself shocked by how fast things die after U50. Sure, it’s always been that my guildies kill things much faster than pugs and that power creep makes pugs skip mechanics… but it’s getting to a point… you shouldn’t be able to skip mechanics on HM as an endgamer without intentionally building for a full burn.

We (dungeon mains) need something to do. I’m just sitting around aside from helping guildies, I have all my tris. I could farm fang lair mask but with how long it’s been in the bazaar, the price is gonna keep dropping. Power creep makes dungeons less interesting and further shifts playstyles towards burning (well, I might as well run daggers on tank if the boss is going to be burnt to a crisp, in turn making the burn faster) .

Night Market helped for a bit but now that’s completed so like… we wait until Q4 for Night Market 2, I guess. Not that it’s different from when we had 2 dungeon dlcs a year.

Anyway, I want a new difficulty mode. Vestige mode in dungeons, a new level above veteran, double hard mode… something. Especially if it reverts dungeons to their form on release— no more jumping lasers in FV, Maarselok cutting the arena during the lurcher fight, MGF’s ruins moving again, etc. I know this wouldn’t happen this year and I honestly think it’ll never happen, but I can dream.

I expect U35 again, where damage is lowered, but I fear a weird situation with trifectas where there’s a bell curve on how easy the tri was. Lower damage would make HMs more interesting but doesn’t give us anything to strive for ourselves, really. Right now it’s just, like… if I want dungeons to be fun, I need to be a worse player, not strive to optimize, and play with people who are newer to dungeons. And even then… sometimes I think ZOS underestimates how much damage people doing HM have. Even on release, I’ve not had to do all the mechanics in BV 2nd boss.

Darth_LucSky · June 17

Well, I'm glad to see that even people from the vet HM trial community is agreeing with me on this topic. I knew it was a widespread thing, but not to this point.
Please, ZOS, something has to be done about this. You guys are doing so many right things this year. Hear the players one more time. The game will not survive for long if it keeps getting easier.

Kalthea · June 18

I think bringing up older content to be a bit more difficult would be a good idea, though I suspect they want players going through dungeons in a specific order. Newer players in easier content, so-to-speak. But honestly a boost to boss HP could resolve this issue. Just not so much that it makes it impossible for new players, or makes enemies a sponge for vets

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 19

Instead of removing the power gains by making the game harder, how about we eliminate Subclassing which is what started this entire mess in the first place. And then get the Classes balanced and finished so we can get the combat under control.

sbam66 · June 19

Vestige mode in vet hm trials coupled with new titles/mounts for completing the trifectas in the trials would be perfect. High increase in difficulty & a fair reward for those who can do it.

Angnos · June 19

It is a problem ZOS created themselves. ZOS should never have released subclassing in its current state. It genuinely felt like a "final goodbye" system update last year, designed so they could focus more on their new MMO and get the most money out of selling skill styles.

When Microsoft pulled the plug on their new MMO, they tried to reign in the powercreep with changes to ulti regen, etc., because this was the only game they had left that generated income. But instead of saying, "Yeah, we made a mistake, we are removing the benefits of subclassing and making it a pure RP system," we got a pure-class rework on steroids with 200K parses on dummies.

And the problem is that 98% of the content became trivial. The entire learning curve for newer players is completely gone. The only time they really get challenged is when they jump into HM content, where they get punished immediately because the content they did previously never taught them anything. The problem arises because ZOS designs content with a certain Meta in mind. Because of this, they cannot change the damage output that much, or the content becomes impossible to do. That is why you see more and more damage stops during trial fights now—so you don't have to worry about the damage cap anymore.

Zama666 · June 20

I would like to see bosses scale health, damage mechanics to the size and power of the group...give a beating, take a beating

olsborg · June 20

Agree with OP, one easy way to start "retreating" the power creep somewhat is deleteing the entire Champion Points system, then we are on the right track atleast.

Kalthea · June 22

I'm curious. At what point is the game considered too easy, and by whose measurement are we going off? Because I can assure you, there are plenty of people in the game that seem to struggle with the basics of gameplay in the lowest tier Vet dungeons. If you dont see it, I would recommend playing a healer in public groups at some point, that's the true measurement of difficulty, lol

Soarora · June 22

Kalthea wrote: »

I'm curious. At what point is the game considered too easy, and by whose measurement are we going off? Because I can assure you, there are plenty of people in the game that seem to struggle with the basics of gameplay in the lowest tier Vet dungeons. If you dont see it, I would recommend playing a healer in public groups at some point, that's the true measurement of difficulty, lol

People at the bottom of the barrel won’t really be helped by power creep when their build is beyond bad. (Speaking as someone who used to pug vet dungeons with a beyond bad build). But even pugs have increasingly skipped mechanics. When was the last time you had to do Caluurion’s skull mechanic? Or the Lurchers during the spriggan fight in MoS? Or the “stand on a shape” mechanic during the second to last boss of MHK? Of course, these are old dungeons, but the mechanics have effectively been deleted from all groups except the worst of the worst. But on the scale of endgame players, I did SWR tri recently, we had a good group, sure, but we weren’t building for full burn sweat strategy. And we skipped the double bombs on first boss and the dogs on second boss. On HM. Without building for a burn.

mocap · June 22

Nowadays you can solo base-game vet dungeons, dealing double DPS of 2018 PUG, out-heal an actual dedicated healer, provide all main buffs and 18k pen on your own while face-tank with 28k HP+ and 26k resistances all the damage rarely using block.