Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

From a PvP perspective nothing has really changed IMO. Though it depends on the build.

I have 9 PvP templars and I can tell you that the masteries in templar were at least better than NB, but templar's main problem isn't a stat-based issue.

Sure I can go over 9000 WD/SD, but it doesn't actually matter this patch and won't matter for a while (at least in PvP) because of a few things:

1. Templar as a class is bad, we'll expand on that with the other points

2. Templar lacks skills actually work slotting

I don't know about the other templars, but when I play the class my bar does not have many templar skills and never all templar skills. Aside from jabs which is usually on the bar just because it's AoE, there isn't a templar skills I have consistently slotted or a skill line I am not willing to give up for subclassing. That's because the skills aren't really worth slotting versus what I could be slotting.

Templar still lacks a slottable skill that provides major crit or another buff worth having -- just like nEcro, and forcing me to run potions, magelight/camo hunter (that are still 1 bar for some reason that escapes common sense by now), or other skills I don't want to slot means I have to waste a slot for at least 1 useless skill (or take a useless action) where I wouldn't be on warden, NB, sorc, DK, arcanist (at least they get major brutality/sorcery with a slot table). sun fire and it's morphs have no combat utility in PvP due to the overnerfing of DoTs and fact that they can be easily dodged anyway. It's a bad skill and I dont' think anyone uses it really in PvE either

This is something ZOS could have addressed easily without reworking the classes, but for some reason refuses to do so for templar and necromancer. And this slottable major savagery thing is an example of what I mean by ZOS not bringing universal options up to date and providing at least a proper stop-gap for the classes that aren't being reworked

3. Templar heals falling behind other options ZOS compares them to

A class that used to be defined by healing is outperformed by nearly every other class in the game except only one skill in the class: extended ritual. I heal in PvP all the time, and I'm not joking -- I only slot extended ritual on my templars, if I even slot that. On a class that used to be defined by healing, I'm not slotting the heals provided by the class because they fall behind subclassed heals, and they also fall behind even scribed heals. There is nothing unique or purposeful about templar healing and hasn't been for a long while. The masteries do not properly address this because you only get two options, and even if you did get to slot all of them that isn't really enough to bring these skills into line when they aren't worth slotting.

^ That right there is reality, and exactly why I oppose the idea of ZOS attempting to pigeonhole templar into healing/tanking when the class is actually one of the worst ones to choose in PvP right now. I don't want to be pigeonholed into a role the class currently sucks at versus every other option. At least Necro has the revive ult, and arcanist provides group shields.

The lack of a self-only burst heal is a nice triple slap if you're pure classing and have tried other options subclassing that provides one. I honestly cannot understand the logic here: the dev team wants the class to be a group healer or buff support, and it sucks at it on every level versus every other option and lacks anything unique.

And that armor buff idea they are trying to push is not a solution, it's just a nerf to templars that didn't ask for it.

4. Templar damage options, that is the skills that do damage are lackluster and also not worth slotting in a PvP context

I don't think I need to even explain this one. I am sure EVERYONE that plays templar knows what I mean. How many of you really slot anything from Dawn's Wrath after all the nerfing they've done? Maybe Living Dark and the Nova; maybe Piercing Javeling and it's morphs. But Living Dark isn't a damage skill, and Nova is an ult. The skills aren't worth slotting!

Wow, what a strange thing to have to say AGAIN about the class. Too many skills aren't worth slotting which leads me to go to the final point that I think I've already said before on these forums regarding templar (and necromancer):

TLDR: Templar has not identity and excels at absolutely nothing any other class couldn't do better. The masteries do nothing to address them because the class' issues lies in it's terrible skill lines that have little to nothing to offer v. subclassing and scribing.

You can get hugeeeeeeee weapon and spell damage, but you have no real skills to actually exploit and make use of it. In exchange for the stat boost you give up TOO MUCH POSSIBILITY that you gain from subclassing. You lose the ability to sustain, flexibility, a self-only heal, superior group healing, buff uptimes, and all-roundedness that isn't possible on the current templar class due to a lack of skills that do anything other than fill up space in the skill line.

Because let's be honest, if you're a templar you aren't slotting most of those skills. And it's because they are lackluster versus even weapon skill lines. I even slot bloodthirst over jabs because at least I can cancel it better and use it as my only spammable skill in PvP and kill people and it has a built in execute.

Jabs is subject to major evasion and minor evasion, which makes it not only worse on paper than blood thirst, but far worse in reality. And it's not like it has a proper snare to stop anyone from just walking away from it or utilizing speed to drop the damage off.

And jabs also needs a target search before it applies damage, which translates into a delay, that can be used to avoid damage or force misses if the person your are fighting (or if you've seen me and you use jabs you know you never damage me and it's all missing constantly, here's some knowledge dropping). This makes jabs not only inferior to weapon options, but completely useless depending on the situation.

And when it's one of the few slottable options that a pure class templar has, is it any wonder that the pure class feels like a joke in PvP and falls behind no matter what?

Why would I even play templar versus any other class right now? I literally feel like it's just like necro with a different paint coat, and slightly better only because of toppling charge, living dark, javelin, and cleansing ritual . The only 4 skills worth slotting, though even those aren't consistently worth it.

And some might call that identity, but when the entire class is defined by "maybe" slotting 4 skills, I think it's a problem. I think it's a problem because those 4 skills don't exist in the same skill lines and mean that the other skill lines aren't worth keeping if you can give them up 1/2 the time or more.

And another skill line, no matter which one, offers more than those skills do meaning that it simply isn't worth keeping those skill lines versus subclassing; and it isn't worth pure classing.

But ZOS doesn't care and most players don't either. That's why I just fire siege.

I could spend an hour dissecting that, but I'll skip the wall of text and just go right to the summary.

Two things:

1) Jabs. You can block cancel it.

2) You listed 4 skills and none of them were Backlash and Radiant Destruction. Not to mention Rune Focus, especially if you are PvPing. Also for group PvP, Repentance is a phenomenal ultimate choice.

Repentance is an morph of Aura, not an Ultimate. 😂

Meant Incantation. This is what happens on 4 hours of sleep in 3 days people!

Edit: But not for nothing, Repentance is also a phenomenal PvP skill for group play.

Radiate77 wrote: »

You say Jabs can be block canceled, but the skill does nothing in PvP without entire build investment, neither does Backlash, and with the change to Radiant Destruction’s interaction with Roll Dodge… that skill is dead too.

Rune Focus is one of two skills worth anything on Templar, and even that will be in question when we get our Rework and sustain becomes entirely free like Dragonknight and now Werewolf.

A 20% WD boost on demand is useless? Ok. PotL is two instances of burst damage plus an armour reduction from 28/35m, and if a player can time a roll dodge precise enough to avoid the damage tick from Radiant they deserve to beat me. Seriously, do you know how hard that is to do?!

And you don't take Rune Focus in PvP for the sustain, you take it for the Major Resolve.

1. Strong healing lines and skills
2. decent damage AOE output if not the strongest AOE damage output
3. Execute damage IMO is one of the strongest outputs in the game.
4. Passive damage bonuses

• The Spear design...
• Resources are always a problem
• Sacred ground... its an issue. Its a nice buff but the problem is that it only has utility for fights where players can stand still long enough to reap the benefits. The issue is that even with the class mastery changes the situations where you CAN get the full benefits are slim, especially in newer content where standing your ground in one place is is penalized

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I find I'm playing a pureclass Templar Werewolf in PvP this update. I like having access to Sacred Ground and extra block mitigation from Steadfast Candescence, and then I get to choose either an on demand heal over time or a damage shield, both of which Werewolf lacks in its kit.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

What i Don't Like:

• The Spear design...
• Resources are always a problem
• Sacred ground... its an issue. Its a nice buff but the problem is that it only has utility for fights where players can stand still long enough to reap the benefits. The issue is that even with the class mastery changes the situations where you CAN get the full benefits are slim, especially in newer content where standing your ground in one place is is penalized

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

A 20% W/D boost to a class without any penetration and which lasts a miserable 10 seconds compared to the 20 you get sourcing it anywhere else… and attached to a spammable.

I'm not even going to bother reading further. The class doesn't have penetration? News to me and my 10,000 hours. A buff that lasts 10 seconds on a spammable is miserable? I don't think you know what spammable means.

When you’re under any form of pressure, you swap to your backbar and what? Your Brutality/Sorcery just fall off and your heals now suffer? Then you have to go through the entire pre-burst rotation once again before you have your staple buff?

You need to Jab to get your buff, you are never initiating with Major Brutality/Sorcery, and that puts Templar at a noticeable disadvantage.

This has been a point of contention for years.

Funny you consider Minor Breach from a debuff you apply through a status effect anyone using martial weapons can apply, as something unique to Templar. If this isn’t what you’re talking about, where are you getting your Offensive Penetration?

Templar has no source of Major Breach, and no unique source of Penetration, but you know this, yes?

They get Critical Damage… imagine if 99% of the populace weren’t using Rallying Cry.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

What i Don't Like:

• The Spear design...
• Resources are always a problem
• Sacred ground... its an issue. Its a nice buff but the problem is that it only has utility for fights where players can stand still long enough to reap the benefits. The issue is that even with the class mastery changes the situations where you CAN get the full benefits are slim, especially in newer content where standing your ground in one place is is penalized

Resources are a problem? In which role?

Sacred Ground does not require you to stand still. Heck you don't even need to stay in the AoE that procced it.

This is me, having sprinted around the outside of Mournhold 3 times, no potions. You can see Sacred Ground active in the bottom right hand corner. It was active from when I started sprinting and never fell off.



Templar's are an easy class to learn, and a hard one to master. They have a lot more nuance than other classes. I tend to find a lot of the recommended builds online don't account for that nuance.