Vengeance is a mess good for few, frustrating for many.

Scaletho · June 11

That's it. The rewards are... good but the unbalanced faction organization and the total mess of advantages/handicaps makes it a huge bummer.

It's ZOS same ridiculous logic as always: stronger takes all, casual get squat. So ''funny". It's a good reflection of the miserable state of the world nowadays though.

Gabriel_H · June 11

Vengeance, by and large, removes class imbalance and set differences. It means, in matches of equal skill, a 1 v 1 is a stalemate (or as close as you can get without ZOS micro-managing some skills' power here and there).

This translates up to the wider bigger battles: Greatest number wins BUT that's before skill is taken into consideration, that includes tactics and technology (use of siege engines).

Yet there will be instances where no matter how much more skilled, and prepared, the small army is, the number difference will be too high. This is where tactics come into play to a greater degree, specifically: Retreat - it's a valid tactic.

Vengeance with 300 - 400 players, i.e. the same number you'd find in a full GH campaign, will see three to four focal points. For example: Pact attacking Alessia and Aleswell at the same time, and possibly a smaller objective like an outpost.

Vengeance with the full 900 players (if it ever manages to get that many), means those two to three focal points will have larger battles, but also the possibility not to and instead there are four to five focal points.

Being outnumbered and retreating to then take a smaller, less defended target, nets individual rewards, as well as wider alliance standing having less of a gap.

Player numbers fluctuate a lot over 24 hours. GH exhibits an extreme form of this as it is faction locked. And because each faction has its own "primetime" for most participants meaning Red, Blue, and Yellow each control 90%+ of the map at some point during the 24 hours.

The same will happen with Vengeance but not quite to that extreme as there is no faction lock. But most importantly - it's day 3, and midweek. That isn't enough time to get consistent and reliable data. Next month, after the campaign reset will be a better indicator when people have decided whether they like Vengeance, and whether it is worth the time, as well as not having the incentive of Veterancy as a lot will have farmed that.

Luneca · June 11

Scaletho wrote: »

That's it. The rewards are... good but the unbalanced faction organization and the total mess of advantages/handicaps makes it a huge bummer.

It's ZOS same ridiculous logic as always: stronger takes all, casual get squat. So ''funny". It's a good reflection of the miserable state of the world nowadays though.

The problem is that when giving the option, no one wants to be a loser. And this game, it's not just losing that happens because of skill but because gulfs are created due to poor balance at every level.

First, Vengeance is NOT equalized PvP and it's not balanced. The classes aren't balanced, siege isn't balanced, healing isn't balanced, ults aren't balanced, weapon lines aren't balanced, roles aren't balaned, etc. -- and it's not because none of it accounts for any of the kind of "chaos" that might be implemented into the system.

For example, if I can hit you with one skill and you can hit me with one skill, how do we not have a draw? Because there are other actions that can be taken that change the direction of combat. I could be the first striker, I could hide and strike before you do. I could choose to avoid damage and strike. I could heal the damage and strike. Etc. -- you should be getting the point.

But Vengeance does not really account for that when balancing things. What happens is that when classes then exist that already are better than the others on paper due to a lack of counter mechanics to their strengths (NB), them being reworked (DK), or simply a "unique skill" that offers no real counter when stacked (Arcanist, beam), then combined with the other actions causes a balance problem on a smaller level.

Now, then there's no counter or chaos element to really counter large numbers. AoE restrictions, lack of the ability to actually stack damage outside of a group or coordination (except with extreme population advantages), lack of any real siege threat, and essentially a slowing down of combat, means that numbers are favored no matter what.

So if you're John "I don't want to play a losing game" which most people will be, because losing the battle awards you no real XP/AP or anything, why would you even care to be on a losing faction?

You can't have fun because there is no real possibility for you to oppose larger populations. It can be done, yes, but just like I said in that other post about how you beat the guy with the broken build and he just respawns and comes back and you slog through the same nonsense again, that is what will happen.

Time is a limtied quantity in life. Who wants to spend their time being fodder and fighting a battle that is already lost and there is nothing to gain? That's what Vengeance really is, what it was, and what it will continue to be.

And the stripping down of it is bad because it means that, essentially there is no longer any possibility .

What do I mean?

When you play in other PvP modes, even if you lose, you can usually ask your opponent what the heck they are doing and how it works. And they will tell you, and you can use that knowledge to adapt to them or adapt your build to account for them. Even the most broken builds can still be countered one way or another in non-Vengeance PvP modes (ever seen that 12 man knightslayer group on PC NA?).

None of that is true in Vengeance. Because the attempt to equalize means that your part in the battle, your part in the experience, only matters as much as how "equalized" things are between players and what you've been allowed to do in the slower combat system.

In Vengeance on DK I killed 8 people in an 8 v 1 max. I can tell you that if they had all been NBs spamming cloak and over mic, I wouldn't have killed anyone because what Vengeance is enforcing is not skill-based play, but a limitation on the possibility of your impact on the battle, and ultimately changes the value of your existence in the campaign from what could have been a major impact into nothing.

The individuals don't matter in Vengeance. For those that didn't matter in Gray Host, of course they will find that better. But for anyone that healed, bombed, or did anything defining in a campaign -- like blocking emp, blocking scrolls from being stolen, killing ball groups that are taking all the keeps, stopping faction stack, etc. -- it won't be enjoyable because you no longer matter enough that you can do that unless you have a large number of people behind you.

And that's where Vegeance ultimately fails to be appealing. What makes all of open world PvP even worth playing in the game? It's not swinging a weapon around wildly faster or slower, but that you have an impact on a battle. You matter, your decisions matter, and so does your input. Vengeance takes all of that away; it's not just a stripped down PvP mode, it's taken ALL of what made PvP actually...PvP.

In exchange for a terrible system, that still isn't balanced, and offers no real chance at making any real difference in reality.

Who really wants to play and participate in that? If I don't matter, I don't show up. I'll be using my time where I do matter.

BXR_Lonestar · June 11

Nah, Vengeance is nothing but zerg. The alliance with the greatest numbers will win 99 out of 100 battles. There's no ball groups, no bombers to thin the crowds when you are outnumbered, you're limited in the siege you can deploy (I can't exactly drop 4 meatbags in Vengeance), and small-scale encounters are slow and frustrating, and healers make no difference in small group due to healing limitations.

If Vengeance population was maxed like it was the first couple of tests, it CAN be fun. Because faction numbers are roughly even and you can get into some truly monsterous battles for massive AP. But without the huge population numbers, its basically PVP that has been stripped down for no benefit at all.