ESO is still not new-player friendly: We need an in-game Build Guide system (PvE & PvP)

Lord_Hev · May 23

Learning to play as you go casually and organically go does not work in this game anymore, because the organic vertical progression system this game launched with was removed. Players cannot "learn" from overland with its blanket one forced default difficulty. The decision to focus on "horizontal progression" only leads to "get your builds from the internet and here's how to power level to cp 160." This is the route most players will just end up taking. And those that truly do just play as they go, decide to try vet content or pvp and get scarred and imprinted on them, such an extreme 180 jump in difficulty out of nowhere. Severe whiplash.

Decimus · May 23

One of the biggest problems in PvP when it comes to onboarding new players is that you're not pitting new players against new players, you're ferrying them off to the middle of the Atlantic, dropping them in the sea and telling them to swim as you sail off.

The game needs proper matchmaking in battlegrounds and new PvP formats where new players/PvPers can practice 1v1s against people of their skill level and gradually get matched up against more and more experienced players.

Soarora · May 23

AScarlato wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

So, I just did the tutorial again and I think I understand why an alarming amount of people spam light attacks... the tutorial basically teaches you to do that. Maybe the tutorial should give us a simple skill loadout temporarily or the first skill in each skill line should be automatically unlocked (so you can gain levels in your class skills during the tutorial too).

But what are people doing that they don't learn to take skills and use them?

I'm just really shocked what people would need a tutorial for. Are MMO players really at the point there is an "alarming" number of people that only light attack and don't use skills?

The light attack spammers I’ve seen take skills but they don’t use them consistently (they could have a spammable but use it, say, every 4 gcds). I don’t know how many people are like this, I don’t recall ever having a problem understanding that I should use a spammable, I just find it concerning when I see someone spamming light attacks.

DoofusMax · May 23

This is 100% "if I were designing", so take this with a huge grain of salt, but I'd bring in a voice actor to do some hand-holding for new players. Lock the player into first-person view until they've created a character and stick an NPC in the cell with them. The actor is going to walk the player through character creation by delivering thumbnail flavor text for class choice, followed by thumbnail race descriptions for that (and alliance choice if "Any Race, Any Alliance" allows it), but emphasize that there is no major advantage to be had in choosing one race over another (I have lost count of all the "which race should I choose?" posts on Reddit, and sometimes a lost a bit of patience, too). Then funnel the player into one of the two DPS advisor builds if they mostly want to do solo story questing kind of stuff, emphasizing that the goal is to unlock useful skills rather than make a group-content friendly build. If they indicate that they mostly want to play group content, then let them choose the tank, healer, or DPS builds and set the skill advisor accordingly, but get that initiate build off of the default position.

As with the Coldharbour tutorial itself, any player who has completed it would have the option to skip that hand-holding entirely and just jump right in.

The nice part about it is that there is no need to add anything else to that tutorial until such a time as another class or race gets added to the mix. Considering that the 10 races (Imperial is in there) have been static since 2014, I don't view new races as being anything beyond "possible, but not in our current development plans" and new classes seem to be only slightly higher on that possibility scale. But it does raise the Norianwe problem if it happens.

Destai · May 26

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here on the general topic. We are working on ways to better onboard new players and players who have been gone for a while. There are a few things in the works, while smaller in scale, will elevate some of that pressure. However, we do acknowledge this is a problem space we are looking to solve over time.

We've also tried in the past with overhauling the new player experience, but that had its own issues with onboarding. The Player Experience Improvements team is looking at other ways to improve onboard, along with other general QoL features.

If you have ideas or examples of good onboarding, please let us know in the thread. That way, we can pass those on to the Player Experience Improvements team. Thanks!

Well, I think the first step is having the combat team share their builds!

Seeing how things are intended to be played/built is quite powerful. And if it doesn't line up to how it's played by the larger community, then we've found an opportunity for you guys to improve. With the old build templates, they were pretty quickly dismissed as not viable. So I think there's something here to explore.

In any case, there's two things to communicate with any in-game build makers.

What type of skill is it. Is it a DOT, HOT, spammable, etc.
How that skill fits into a build. Teaching players what ingredients make up a successful build is the bigger, but ultimately, more important problem. That varies by role.

For instance, if I look at GW2, I know in each slot there's a specific type of skill. Diablo 4 also does similar labeling. Now, I get it's different here, but some kind of labeling would be helpful. Something to relate the skills to each other, and with specific gear sets and CP features. Something to tie it all together, really.

That needs to be come from the combat team and be communicated in-game.

Urzigurumash · May 26

BGs centric view: I don't think Top Down instruction on building is needed, players learning and growing into builds that work for them is part of the allure.

However we need a slow down on big combat changes and rapidly shifting metas for that to be possible.

Taarente · May 27

I suspect the devs are working on enough to not spend time putting together build guides. There are so many creators giving advice on builds now. The number of combinations based on all of the available sets, procs, skills, scribing, subclassing, champion points etc etc, would be vast. Not to mention the wide range of playstyles that people might have. Trying to have the devs solve that is not realistic. They'd no sooner say try this and you'd have howls of derision from the playerbase. What might work better is a way to evaluate your encounter.
A more realistic approach might be contextual guidance rather than official builds.
For example: ‘Your high damage is being reduced because of low penetration — here’s how penetration works.’
Or: ‘You took heavy incoming damage and blocked very little during this fight — here’s what blocking does and how it reduces damage.’
That teaches players the underlying systems without trying to prescribe one “correct” build

Firstmep · May 27

I don't think it should be on the devs to tell player, even new ones, how to play.
There are already a lot of player made guides out there that are easy to understand anyway.
Years ago I floated the idea of a mentorship system that could pair experienced and new players together for unique rewards, that way progression would be player driven while also promoting social interactions.

frogthroat · May 27

Soarora wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

So, I just did the tutorial again and I think I understand why an alarming amount of people spam light attacks... the tutorial basically teaches you to do that. Maybe the tutorial should give us a simple skill loadout temporarily or the first skill in each skill line should be automatically unlocked (so you can gain levels in your class skills during the tutorial too).

But what are people doing that they don't learn to take skills and use them?

I'm just really shocked what people would need a tutorial for. Are MMO players really at the point there is an "alarming" number of people that only light attack and don't use skills?

The light attack spammers I’ve seen take skills but they don’t use them consistently (they could have a spammable but use it, say, every 4 gcds). I don’t know how many people are like this, I don’t recall ever having a problem understanding that I should use a spammable, I just find it concerning when I see someone spamming light attacks.

Oh for sure you would need better instructions how to do rotation and how skills are very important. When I started I had no idea how important skills were. Light attack does 3k damage. Tooltip for skill shows 3k damage. So does it matter if I light attack or use a skill?

Once I got that, rotation was difficult to grasp. Online resources helped, but still starting with 10 skill rotation was impossible. Too many buttons, too many timers. So I started with a simple rotation. Back bar, unstable wall of elements, bar swap, blazing spear, jabs. Then added ritual of retribution on back bar to the rotation. Then purifying light. Little by little.

Same with la-weaving. First I started with just jabs. La -> jabs -> la -> jabs. Added blazing spear to that. Back bar, unstable wall, ritual of retribution, bar swap, purifying light, la -> blazing spear -> la -> jabs. Little by little added more. First front bar, then both bars. In 2 weeks I could somewhat reliably la weave all skills. Nowadays I need to remind myself not to la weave during prebuff to not ninja pull the boss.

Would have been way easier if there would have been some in-game instructions on this. Or if there would be even some guidance how to do this little by little like I did. Most build guides that show rotation already assume you la weave all skills all the time. There's so much to keep track of when you are a new player that if you can start la-weaving 10 skills and keep all timers in check when you just got the game, I salute you.

BXR_Lonestar · May 27

What ESO needs is more intuitive skills and abilities. We have sets and perks that are intended to boost one kind of damage over all others, but it is still unclear from ability descriptions whether an ability is treated as a Damage Over Time ability, direct damage, channelled ability, etc. People are still confused as to what a "Status Effect" is and what they actually do. And even worse, some abilities are blends of damage types, which actually makes it HARDER to make builds using those abilities effective because you only get a fractional damage increase depending on what damage type you are trying to emphasize.

What needs to happen to make this game easier to understand is that each and every ability needs to be categorized into just one type of ability, and the ability needs to be clearly labeled as such. Abilities that are DOTS should be clearly labeled or designated "DOT damage." Abilities that are considered direct damage should be clearly labeled as "Direct Damage." AoE's should be clearly labeled "AoE Damage" and there should be zero cross-over of damage types so that building around certain abilities and perks is intuitive and easily done based on the information from the skill menu, rather than having to research or have an addon that tells you what percentage of each damage type the ability is considered.

brylars · May 28

What about a new player quest where you get a companion that basically teaches you how to play the game? The intro is a good start, but it is part of the story. I am talking about something separate after your character falls to Nirn. Let's say an adventurer runs up to you and presents a bargain. They show you the ropes of surviving in Tamriel and you help them do something (a quest or two). Maybe add a training ground where you could practice skills without having to buy a training dummy.

I think offering a guide would be nice, but as old as this game is and as many changes it might go through in the future, a game guide would have to be updated with each major update/change. Not very practical.

Entering PvP, one could have a quick quest in a training ground where you get taught to basics of PvP.

Vonnegut2506 · May 28

brylars wrote: »

What about a new player quest where you get a companion that basically teaches you how to play the game? The intro is a good start, but it is part of the story. I am talking about something separate after your character falls to Nirn. Let's say an adventurer runs up to you and presents a bargain. They show you the ropes of surviving in Tamriel and you help them do something (a quest or two). Maybe add a training ground where you could practice skills without having to buy a training dummy.

I think offering a guide would be nice, but as old as this game is and as many changes it might go through in the future, a game guide would have to be updated with each major update/change. Not very practical.

Entering PvP, one could have a quick quest in a training ground where you get taught to basics of PvP.

The "basics of PvP," so how to teabag and send angry whispers to players on other factions?

keto3000 · May 28

I'm old skool! I prefer the OG 2014 opener with concussed vestige stuck in a cave, not nknowing a thing and having to figure out stuff during the tutorial. The current tutorial style feels gimped, imho. "pick this up" "put this down" swing and bock might be fine for someone who has never used a mouse and keyboard, but c'mon that should be opt in scenario.

Give us the OG opener again! Much more anticipation & excitement. Much more feeling of accomplishment during that intial trial and error, and self discovery. I still remember it well and cherish that experience.

New players should have that MINIMALISt HUD turned off experience available as well.

Cheers!

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 28

LunaFlora wrote: »

i think it would be helpful to have tutorial and training area that we can visit anytime.

it could have:
- each type of weapon and armour.
- target dummies
- various different types of monsters
- unlimited Ultimate and a higher amount of the other resources.
- characters that teach you about Tanking, Healing, and common mechanics.

Maybe a practice dungeon with NPC's as your group members?
it could be scripted and allow you to try each role in a calm environment, ideally you have the option to regenerate resources very fast.

this is the way

shadoza · May 29

Adhara wrote: »

"ZOS should ask content creators to make tutorial video builds and link them in-game when you open the tutorial or class screen"

No. Put it in-game. I'm not watching some rando's video. Use the built-in skills advisor, updated to actually explain how skills synergise together and what helps for which role. I'm not a new player by any stretch of the imagination, but I HATE being expected to go outside of the game and break my immersion to look up advice. Everything we need to know should be accessible and integrated within the game itself.

The "builds" that the advisor suggests aren't particularly good, which is why I suggest overhauling them. Also put in brief explanations for roles. "As a tank, your job is to keep the enemies' attention on you and keep them debuffed, which is why skills like <X> <Y> <Z> will help" or "healers not only keep the group on their feet and fighting, it's also important to provide beneficial buffs such as <A> <B> <C>". Like a tank build can use the 1H+S taunt, which also does major breach (a helpful debuff) or the built-in taunt that most classes have, but the class taunts often do different debuffs and you'd want major breach from some other ability.

I would not watch a video created by anyone not employed by ZOS. There are issues with legitimacy and personal bias.