Gabriel_H wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load

The load is on the servers, not the client. Clients on older hardware will see FPS drops (which can be mitigated by turning graphics settings all the way down). THe issue of lag on skills firing, positional differences, rubber banding and all the other performance issues are server side. There are too many calcs. Hence Vengeance with reduced calcs.

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think the gap between the best builds (and when i say build i mean all of it, gear, Champ Points, skills, potions, poisons when synced well) and mediocre or bad builds, is far too vast. Where ya, its hard to tell if someone is gapping you because they are just that good, or if they have figured out a real nice set up that pushes them way beyone what you could ever do with your build.

They need to figure out how to reel in the power of the best optimized builds to not be soooo far beyond anything else. There should still be a gap, so ther is always a chase to expirement and theory craft, but the gap is too wide right now with how powerful you can get if you utilize all the optimization possible.

JohnRingo wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think the gap between the best builds (and when i say build i mean all of it, gear, Champ Points, skills, potions, poisons when synced well) and mediocre or bad builds, is far too vast. Where ya, its hard to tell if someone is gapping you because they are just that good, or if they have figured out a real nice set up that pushes them way beyone what you could ever do with your build.

They need to figure out how to reel in the power of the best optimized builds to not be soooo far beyond anything else. There should still be a gap, so ther is always a chase to expirement and theory craft, but the gap is too wide right now with how powerful you can get if you utilize all the optimization possible.

Grey Host represents end game PvP in a mature and fully developed game. Many players there, including myself, have been theory crafting and optimizing for 10+ years. Grey Host is currently the highest pressure ruleset in ESO. Not every player is supposed to thrive there. That is the nature of end-game PvP. It often surprises me that players expect casual accessibility.

Bernz007 wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think the gap between the best builds (and when i say build i mean all of it, gear, Champ Points, skills, potions, poisons when synced well) and mediocre or bad builds, is far too vast. Where ya, its hard to tell if someone is gapping you because they are just that good, or if they have figured out a real nice set up that pushes them way beyone what you could ever do with your build.

They need to figure out how to reel in the power of the best optimized builds to not be soooo far beyond anything else. There should still be a gap, so ther is always a chase to expirement and theory craft, but the gap is too wide right now with how powerful you can get if you utilize all the optimization possible.

Grey Host represents end game PvP in a mature and fully developed game. Many players there, including myself, have been theory crafting and optimizing for 10+ years. Grey Host is currently the highest pressure ruleset in ESO. Not every player is supposed to thrive there. That is the nature of end-game PvP. It often surprises me that players expect casual accessibility.

This is very well said! I think people expect to come into GH with the same effort they currently have in pve, where you can equip a few different sets and beam your way into end game...in fact I see at least one or two a week come into GH trying their beam builds lol

Kartalin wrote: »

Vengeance is going to suffer the same problems that caused noproc to hemorrhage players and ultimately fail: as soon as population imbalances become too lopsided the whole thing is going to fall apart because there's no mechanics to overcome a significant deficit of numbers with skill.

Demonwolff wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think the gap between the best builds (and when i say build i mean all of it, gear, Champ Points, skills, potions, poisons when synced well) and mediocre or bad builds, is far too vast. Where ya, its hard to tell if someone is gapping you because they are just that good, or if they have figured out a real nice set up that pushes them way beyone what you could ever do with your build.

They need to figure out how to reel in the power of the best optimized builds to not be soooo far beyond anything else. There should still be a gap, so ther is always a chase to expirement and theory craft, but the gap is too wide right now with how powerful you can get if you utilize all the optimization possible.

Grey Host represents end game PvP in a mature and fully developed game. Many players there, including myself, have been theory crafting and optimizing for 10+ years. Grey Host is currently the highest pressure ruleset in ESO. Not every player is supposed to thrive there. That is the nature of end-game PvP. It often surprises me that players expect casual accessibility.

Bernz007 wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think the gap between the best builds (and when i say build i mean all of it, gear, Champ Points, skills, potions, poisons when synced well) and mediocre or bad builds, is far too vast. Where ya, its hard to tell if someone is gapping you because they are just that good, or if they have figured out a real nice set up that pushes them way beyone what you could ever do with your build.

They need to figure out how to reel in the power of the best optimized builds to not be soooo far beyond anything else. There should still be a gap, so ther is always a chase to expirement and theory craft, but the gap is too wide right now with how powerful you can get if you utilize all the optimization possible.

Grey Host represents end game PvP in a mature and fully developed game. Many players there, including myself, have been theory crafting and optimizing for 10+ years. Grey Host is currently the highest pressure ruleset in ESO. Not every player is supposed to thrive there. That is the nature of end-game PvP. It often surprises me that players expect casual accessibility.

This is very well said! I think people expect to come into GH with the same effort they currently have in pve, where you can equip a few different sets and beam your way into end game...in fact I see at least one or two a week come into GH trying their beam builds lol

This has nothing to do with the point here. Stop muddying the waters.
Its Statements like this in a thread that throw it off its intended course.

No one begrudges you your place to PVP so go there and PVP you don't need or want Vengeance so leave it to the ones that do.

What we don't want is another GH or Blackreach.
Vengeance is supposed to be that place where everyone can battle on even footing learn and grow skill without the broken gear and mythics.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Vengeance (Cyrodiil)

• General [Feedback]: We want to thank everyone who hopped into the Vengeance campaign during the Update 50 PTS cycle. When Vengeance hits the live servers as a permanent campaign option alongside Gray Host, we will be closely monitoring feedback and performance and will adjust as needed. That includes opening additional campaigns if the population calls for it, making design changes if needed, etc. Vengeance is intended to be an evolving experience, and we will adjust as we go, based on your feedback. We do have some additional experimental changes planned for Vengeance later this year, such as turning on item sets to allow for the abilities to function in Vengeance but not the stats. This is all in the name of continuing to fine-tune a fun and rewarding Cyrodiil experience while retaining good server performance and higher population campaign numbers. More on this soon!

LadyGP wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Still dont understand why they put proccs back into NOCP ravenwatch, yea it wasnt the most active campaign, but it was active during prime time, enough to have action atleast, but after they put proccs back there, its 100% dead. When ravenwatch was noprocc it was atleast way more skillbased then regular proccodiil GH

How many people were only there while they were waiting for their GH queue o pop?

Sure, there were a handful of regs for each faction but most of the people I saw there were just waiting for the GH queue to pop.

aetherix8 wrote: »

Demonwolff wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Reading your OP, I wasn't sure where you stood on Veng, TBH.

I agree that what goes live with U50 doesn't look promising at all. For example, what makes the combat team think that Demoralizing Disruption or Battle Trauma are good ideas to implement in PvP is unfathomable.

But isn't it a bit too early for such rants? I, personally, will start complaining when Veng is live, as it seems that doing it earlier is just a waste of energy. It appears to me that the devs take note of such early feedback but, in most cases, only act when things are actually live:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Vengeance (Cyrodiil)

• General [Feedback]: We want to thank everyone who hopped into the Vengeance campaign during the Update 50 PTS cycle. When Vengeance hits the live servers as a permanent campaign option alongside Gray Host, we will be closely monitoring feedback and performance and will adjust as needed. That includes opening additional campaigns if the population calls for it, making design changes if needed, etc. Vengeance is intended to be an evolving experience, and we will adjust as we go, based on your feedback. We do have some additional experimental changes planned for Vengeance later this year, such as turning on item sets to allow for the abilities to function in Vengeance but not the stats. This is all in the name of continuing to fine-tune a fun and rewarding Cyrodiil experience while retaining good server performance and higher population campaign numbers. More on this soon!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692892/update-50-pts-week-5-summary/p1

I Think there is potential with vengeance but it should be tweaked before it goes live, The whole point of the PTS is to sus out issues and address them before live, but to your point that seldom happens. I think they are trying to listen, at least I want to believe that, however the culture is still the same. They listen and they disregard until its live, then lose players, go into damage control mode, Nurf or buff, and in some cases ignore issues. All the while compounding issues already present.

As for the quote the lip service means very little at this point, the ones that Have been here a long while have heard this before, and while I could break the whole statement down I wont but the key parts if you have learned to read between the lines are telling you its going live and they know its not ready.

Yes, we would all prefer a finished, polished and balanced Veng than what goes live soon (I honestly think so). But, to be fair, some players are tired of one-week tests every three months or so, and we would like it to be available permanently, even if it is a bit of an unfinished mess. We just ask ZOS to keep working on it and improving it while taking into account players' feedback. Just to add a bit of context on why ZOS would decide to release Veng already, even if it's clearly unfinished.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683053/request-permanent-vengeance-test-campaign/p1

reazea wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load, both issues simultaneously in most cases, and get rid of annoying immortal players that eat siege and run in circles till zerged.

Which just with the meager nerf to sticky heals we have now its already gotten easier to deal with ballgroups, but not easy enough.

And now were back to the why hasn't ZOS tried limiting heal and shield stacking yet.

They're trying to say they can't do anything to improve performance so they can raise the population caps, but it looks more like their not even trying.

Neither limiting shield stacking or healing will work. You'll just lose power relative to the ball groups either way. They will just build more damage and you'll be destroyed faster.

That's because the nerfs that people demand are never targeted to the specific skills they are using; they are applied globally and in a way that harms everyone, including those with builds that aren't OP and aren't in a ball group.

Rather than waste time chasing an endless buff-nerf cycle where players that aren't grouped will still have the short end of the stick, why aren't players asking why things like siege are largely useless and mechanics like oblivion damage have been nerfed to the ground?

Where's the oblivion damage siege to take on some of these groups pushing over 50K HP? Where's the negate siege? Actually, where's the counter to stacking HP in the first place?

And then there's healing that works off of HP, that won't be hit as hard as all of the other healing when you get the nerfs you and others keep thinking will somehow harm the ball groups.

No matter what you do, they will still be able to reduce damage more than you can and output more damage than you can alone. That means, that relatively, their power will never drop compared to yours when we start applying the nerf gun.

That's why none of the previous nerfs matter or have had any real lasting effect. And it's also why any future ones will not.

As someone who plays in a ball group I can say for certain you're just wrong. Heal and shield stacking is the #1 advantage to being in a ball group. Having 10 vigors, 10 radiating regens, 10 shields etc. on us at all times is what makes us unkillable. All ZOS has to do is limit players to only one instance of any given heal or shield at any time and problem solved. Ball groups will still be a lot stronger than individuals or an organized group, just not to the extreme they are now.

Luneca wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

As someone who plays in a ball group I can say for certain you're just wrong. Heal and shield stacking is the #1 advantage to being in a ball group. Having 10 vigors, 10 radiating regens, 10 shields etc. on us at all times is what makes us unkillable. All ZOS has to do is limit players to only one instance of any given heal or shield at any time and problem solved. Ball groups will still be a lot stronger than individuals or an organized group, just not to the extreme they are now.

Except what ZOS will do is not target those few skills, they will do it on a global level that targets everyone. Right now, ball groups / organized/ whatever we want to call them are on the steps looking down on everyone else.

When ZOS nerfs using a systemic approach like they did for HoTs, that means is that the field simply moves down a level, but you keep your positions on the steps and get to look down on everyone else.

That's not fixing everything despite whatever argument you try to bring. It's clear it's not. The nerfs need to target the specific skills, but they won't do that because it takes server power to do it.

Also your one ball group isn't the only one in existence. And probably isn't the best either.

Luneca wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

They finally nerf ballgroups they'll improve the performance due to lag/people playing on older computers and cant handle the load, both issues simultaneously in most cases, and get rid of annoying immortal players that eat siege and run in circles till zerged.

Which just with the meager nerf to sticky heals we have now its already gotten easier to deal with ballgroups, but not easy enough.

And now were back to the why hasn't ZOS tried limiting heal and shield stacking yet.

They're trying to say they can't do anything to improve performance so they can raise the population caps, but it looks more like their not even trying.

Neither limiting shield stacking or healing will work. You'll just lose power relative to the ball groups either way. They will just build more damage and you'll be destroyed faster.

That's because the nerfs that people demand are never targeted to the specific skills they are using; they are applied globally and in a way that harms everyone, including those with builds that aren't OP and aren't in a ball group.

Rather than waste time chasing an endless buff-nerf cycle where players that aren't grouped will still have the short end of the stick, why aren't players asking why things like siege are largely useless and mechanics like oblivion damage have been nerfed to the ground?

Where's the oblivion damage siege to take on some of these groups pushing over 50K HP? Where's the negate siege? Actually, where's the counter to stacking HP in the first place?

And then there's healing that works off of HP, that won't be hit as hard as all of the other healing when you get the nerfs you and others keep thinking will somehow harm the ball groups.

No matter what you do, they will still be able to reduce damage more than you can and output more damage than you can alone. That means, that relatively, their power will never drop compared to yours when we start applying the nerf gun.

That's why none of the previous nerfs matter or have had any real lasting effect. And it's also why any future ones will not.

Demonwolff wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Vengeance is going to suffer the same problems that caused noproc to hemorrhage players and ultimately fail: as soon as population imbalances become too lopsided the whole thing is going to fall apart because there's no mechanics to overcome a significant deficit of numbers with skill.

I don't disagree and actually brought this up in the u50 vengeance feedback.
There are ways to eliminate or the least balance it more.
No alliance should be allowed to have more than a 25-50 player advantage which could be accomplished by setting a rotating cap I.E. 100 AD 75 DC 60 EP Lock AD until the other teams get within the set limit, In order to keep the population active leave Blackreach and Ravenwatch up and allow quing for Vengeance from there and IC.

However this doesn't address the issue of counterplay which can be solved by simply adding morphs to the abilities or/and Unlocking the perks that provide agency to the classes.

We are always going to suffer lack of population until we can generate more interest in PVP AND stop hemorrhaging current players and that starts with a place that people can play and enjoy the experience while gaining skill and knowledge.