spartaxoxo wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As part of the ongoing Services provided to You, ZOS will make available an application programming interface (the "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content, including user-generated Content ("UGC"), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for The Elder Scrolls® Online software-as-a-service product purchased by You (the "Game").

It is ZOS's sole discretion if an add-on violated the COC. This add-on has been allowed to stand for years. While ZOS does not endorse or officially support any add-on and reserves the right to disable one at anytime in its sole discretion, it can and will disable an add-on if it decides it's unfair. Instead of disabling the Wardrobe, they created similar functionality base game with the Armory Assistant. Therefore, we can conclude that this add-on does not violate the COC regardless if you wish they should. Add-ons are allowed to enhance the user experience.

Trying to argue that it violates the tos or that add-ons that provide accessibility options to players is unfair are both poor arguments that undermines the broader idea that there is not parity between those who can use them and those who cannot.

You'd be better served arguing for more things to be made better base game than such arguments imo

you know i once was told id be better off not fighting something , but after getting 6 1/2 years and not life i was 100% glad i had fought for what i felt right than to give up id still be behind bars had i not

I'm not telling you not to fight for parity. I'm just saying that you need to consider how you go about it. Ultimately, you want to make arguments that will convince players and developers this is something worth addressing.

This is ZOS's property. I make the rules about what can and cannot be done on my property. They do the same (within the reasonable confines of the law in various regions). So it's not a great argument.

I think your cause of making add-ons feel less mandatory is a good one. WoW just made significant changes to its game to accomplish the same. But, trying to get this particular add-on banned just seems like you're missing the forest for the tree.

oh i have looked at how im going about it , if you remember i was attacking it under the bases of automated game play due to its automatic 0 in put needed loction tracker doing the switching for you , but now looking deeper into it it has shown it hits on other rule violations that are better pointed out by its actions in SCORE / leaderboard use and over-all advantages making it a burden to players that choose not to use add-ons . a fair thing not to be forced into as we dont pay to play a 3rd parties game we PAY to play a zenimax eso made game

my over all goal aint to see it ban 100% just moved out of leaderboard activities, trials, pvp and arena's so that its unfair advantages aint a problem anymore

having add-ons aint my issue having add-ons that give advantages in END GAME content is

SolarRune wrote: »

Gear swapping addons have been a part of the game on PC for almost 10 yrs at this point.

Whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, the judge here should be ZoS, and by their lack of action despite the knowledge of broad common use, by them exposing and maintaining the api that allows this to happen, and them supporting stream team members who have actively used demonstrates this is not viewed as a problem by the only people that actually matter.

I don't generally use them but will do if asked, and don't begrudge those that do use them. It doesn't change my acheivements in game. When I've missed speedruns by a few seconds in the past, my mind doesn't go to, ooh I should have used WW. No, it goes to, with this group with this comp how can we 'git gud' to shave those seconds off.

It does create a tool you are asked, if not necessitated for the current social group, to facilitate in order to continue said content. From much a same apathetic standpoint as your own, as an observation.

Athory wrote: »

Oh... ONLY if you know what else is out there...

Anyway, why are you exactly so upset with Wizard? Just use it like anyone else.

What about animation canceling? That was something unplanned too, and it should have been against the rules, but even ZOS embraced it instead of fixing it. And now we have a unique and different combat system because of it.

On the other hand, I really understand your point.
The CoC exists and should be applied... But sometimes it seems like they ONLY apply the CoC in certain cases.

Well, believe me... this is a fight you already lost. Just ignore all the addons that break the rules and use them. Because after all, they’re apparently not against the CoC...

it's not the worst of the cheats, so why complain about the cheats? Is that your arguments on addons?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

EXPLOIT= TO USE A SITUATION,RESOURCE OR PESON UNFAIRLY, SELFISHLY OR FOR ONES OWN MAXIMUM ADVANTAGE.. zos cant change what a word means

YOU CAN USE THE SAME ADDON. It is therefore not selfish, unfair, and allows you the same advantage.

On console, that is not true. PS5 users can use add-ons and PS4 ones cannot. Same with XBOX. I don't think the add-on in question is a problem but I wanted to throw in as a reminder as it's untrue for 2/3 servers. OP plays on console so that is not an unrealistic scenario here.

Aware, but in the OPs case he's already stated he plays on PS5/PC

That doesn't mean his whole team does or his friends. Personally, I'm not in this situation but it's a thing on consoles and it's normal for that to impact the opinion of console users.

ETA

I actually didn't realize just how useful add-ons truly were until they came to PS5. I felt like I had to get them once they did but I find them to a great thing. In my case I'm glad I was forced to step out of my comfort zone and try them but not everyone will be and not everyone even can here.

WoW recently made changes to their games to decrease the importance of add-ons. So, it's definitely worthy of consideration.

Although I don't think the solution is delete the add-ons like OP does. I don't find them selfish at all and am grateful to the add-ons devs

ive watched 3/4 of my friends list leave the game over add-ons being added to psn ive watch 8 groups break up over not wanting / wanting add-ons to be used , ive heard of numerous raid groups having to end runs because players dont want to run add-ons ... i guess this is a console issue since add-ons are new and old players dont respect the fact that add-ons are taking parts of the game away

HatchetHaro wrote: »

How about this? We'll keep using Wizard's Wardrobe, and you don't, and if it breaks ToS and CoC, we get banned and you don't! How does that sound?

how about zos/eso developers stop hiding behinde the players to fight with each other and they come out with if they 100% intend to over look their rules in favor of add-ons and are ok with players being forced to use 3rd party add-ons for it to be a fair and equeal playing field within the game , eather way they are going to lose players as not everyone will be happy if they dont stand with and not everyone will be if they do stand with add-ons being a mandatory use to keep balance , but its about time they actually speak up on what their position is on ADD-ON THAT BODERS BETWEEN THE LINES OF THEIR RULES SET FORTH IN THE ADD-ON TERMS / TOS/ COC , because so far all ive ever seen them do is stay quiet as the players argue until they can close out or lock a post when it has to deal with add-ons breaking ToS / ADD_ON TERMS / CoC

By that logic, zos should take out lazy writ crafter too because why should someone finish the writs in a few minutes when it takes me 5 business days !11!!!!1! muh unfairness !!1!
Map pins addons should be illegal as well !!1!!! I spend hours collecting mages guild books and skyshards or just buy them for the alts, while others just have the markers and KNOW where to go !!! muh unfair !!!
Any sort of tracker should be banned because it provides an unfair advantage !!! people can see mechanics coming when the addon tells them !!! and they can keep better track of (the very many this game has) uptimes than us people without addons !!!!
3 Crux audio cue addons should be banned because...uh...yeah i ran out of absurd statements.

Sorry that's all the toxicity i had in me for today, on a more serious note, at some point i knew some player in a guild that refused to do scribing or subclass because "it's cheating"...your aversion to addons seems to be in the same unreasonable bucket. Instead of complaining and getting clowned on by random people on the internet, keep playing without addons and just become godlike and beat people who use addons. Would probably be far more entertaining for you.

noneatza wrote: »

By that logic, zos should take out lazy writ crafter too because why should someone finish the writs in a few minutes when it takes me 5 business days !11!!!!1! muh unfairness !!1!
Map pins addons should be illegal as well !!1!!! I spend hours collecting mages guild books and skyshards or just buy them for the alts, while others just have the markers and KNOW where to go !!! muh unfair !!!
Any sort of tracker should be banned because it provides an unfair advantage !!! people can see mechanics coming when the addon tells them !!! and they can keep better track of (the very many this game has) uptimes than us people without addons !!!!
3 Crux audio cue addons should be banned because...uh...yeah i ran out of absurd statements.

Sorry that's all the toxicity i had in me for today, on a more serious note, at some point i knew some player in a guild that refused to do scribing or subclass because "it's cheating"...your aversion to addons seems to be in the same unreasonable bucket. Instead of complaining and getting clowned on by random people on the internet, keep playing without addons and just become godlike and beat people who use addons. Would probably be far more entertaining for you.

putting your head in the sand to not see the damage doesnt make the damage just go away and if we dont speak up what are we going to allow before we cant breathe anymore ????
and not being mean but only one of your issue with add-ons you used puts you at a disadvantage in leaderboards or scored content .

lazy crafter can save time crafting yes but theres no leaderboard for how fast you can craft your items ,
map pins , seeing where to go to get mage books or skyshards has no score or leaderboards
trackers , now this one is questionable ( in my view point ) as being told where to stand, when to block, when to dodge , when incoming damage is targeting you all gives a combat advantage that can help you in leaderboard activities and where content has scoring
id 1st have to care what others say to let clowning bug me but since i understand they only doing so because they lack facts to disprove whats been put forth why would i let it bug me they are showing their small mindedness and childishness while at the same time showcasing how zos/ eso dev's over look their ToS in favor of players whom back their play over them that question them , ive seen it for years here being belittled , put down , clowned and out right harassed all while no one gets suspended but yet getting suspended for putting up a post that showed their biasness about the verything happening to me ..
take this post theres 3 people whom have said nothing but insults but yet zos / deves wont do anything to them again showing more of the same

Blood_again wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

lazy crafter can save time crafting yes but theres no leaderboard for how fast you can craft your items ,
map pins , seeing where to go to get mage books or skyshards has no score or leaderboards

If you ignore the heavy impact of the crafting/gathering add-ons on the in-game economy, then who put their head in the sand here?
Economy flaws killed more games than any leaderboard exploit.

you are more than welcome to start the fight to get them changed i feel add-ons that gives a disadvantages to the player in leaderboard activities and where scoring is kept is more of an importance then them that gives off economical disadvantage

and just to get this out there for them saying zos must support the add-on because it lets it come out

ZENIMAX MEDIA TERMS OF SERVICE
D. Game Mods

With respect to Game Mods made available for download from a ZeniMax website or made available from a ZeniMax server, ZeniMax may, at any time and in its sole discretion, elect to remove such Game Mods from the ZeniMax website(s) or server(s) without notice to You.

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

ZeniMax may, but is not required under the Terms of Service to, validate, test, evaluate or pre-screen Game Mods.

ZeniMax does not endorse, sponsor, guarantee or approve any Game Mods, including without limitation Game Mods available for download from a ZeniMax website.

Your experience with any particular Game Mod may vary from other users' experiences.


so by this they dont support add-ons nor pre test them it is left up to the players to bring any issues to light so that zos can then look and make a decision on if it fits or not

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

and just to get this out there for them saying zos must support the add-on because it lets it come out

ZENIMAX MEDIA TERMS OF SERVICE
D. Game Mods

With respect to Game Mods made available for download from a ZeniMax website or made available from a ZeniMax server, ZeniMax may, at any time and in its sole discretion, elect to remove such Game Mods from the ZeniMax website(s) or server(s) without notice to You.

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

ZeniMax may, but is not required under the Terms of Service to, validate, test, evaluate or pre-screen Game Mods.

ZeniMax does not endorse, sponsor, guarantee or approve any Game Mods, including without limitation Game Mods available for download from a ZeniMax website.

Your experience with any particular Game Mod may vary from other users' experiences.


so by this they dont support add-ons nor pre test them it is left up to the players to bring any issues to light so that zos can then look and make a decision on if it fits or not

What is wild to me is how you keep quoting things as if they validate your point but they don't.

Again, these addons are a choice, not mandatory and I suspect if your choice not to use wizards is costing you raid groups then there are bigger issues at play than the addon.

Leave Wizards alone, please
One of the best addons created for the game, only falling behind code's great work.

I don't understand how you can play ESO's end game PvE content and not wanting to have some minimal optimization at least between trash/bosses setups... That is wild to me.

I used AI to help aggregate and review these specific legal clauses for accuracy.

The Legal Argument Against Wizard's Wardrobe
To those arguing that 3rd party add-ons are purely a "choice" or that their existence in the API equals an endorsement, please consider these specific clauses from the official ZeniMax Terms of Service, Add-on Terms, and Code of Conduct:

1. The "Unfair Burden" Rule (Add-on Terms, Section 1-iii)

“Add-ons must not... create an undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services... and/or to other users.”
The Fact: When an add-on becomes mandatory to remain competitive in Trial or Arena leaderboards, it ceases to be a "convenience" and becomes an unfair burden on any player who wishes to play the game as ZOS originally built it. If you cannot get a group spot without a 3rd party download, the add-on is violating this term.

2. Abuse of Scoring Systems (Code of Conduct, Section 5.2)

“You will not... exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game.”
The Fact: Leaderboards are a scoring system. WW complex gear, skill and CP swaps in 2.5 seconds—a mechanical task that takes a human significantly longer. This directly manipulates the time-based element of leaderboard scores, which constitutes an abuse of the scoring system.

3. The "Spirit of the Game" Catch-all (Code of Conduct, Section 5.1)

“You will not... engage in any other activity that ZeniMax believes harms the experience of other Users or the integrity of the ZeniMax Service.”
The Fact: The community fragmentation, the breaking up of raid groups, and players leaving the game because of "add-on requirements" are literal examples of harming the user experience.

4. API Access is NOT Legal Consent (TOS, Section D)

“ZeniMax does not endorse, sponsor, guarantee or approve any Game Mods... ZeniMax may, but is not required to, validate, test, evaluate or pre-screen Game Mods.”
The Fact: The argument "If ZOS didn't want it, they'd break the API" is a fallacy. ZOS explicitly states they do not pre-screen.

Conclusion: Moving WW out of scored/competitive content (Trials, Arenas, PvP) isn't about "hating add-ons"—it’s about restoring the Integrity of the Game. We pay to play a ZeniMax game, not a 3rd party automation suite.


i used AI so i can put all of your reasonings into one post and shoot them all down at once as nothing anyone is saying shows that wizards wardrobe doesnt in fact break the rules set forth by zos in their ToS/ add-on terms and CoC

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

I used AI ... for accuracy.

Dude, please don't repeat your previous mistake.
AI won't help you to make things more accurate.
It can do many things, but in this area you need to use your own mind.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

I used AI to help aggregate and review these specific legal clauses for accuracy.

<insert slop here>

i used AI so i can put all of your reasonings into one post and shoot them all down at once as nothing anyone is saying shows that wizards wardrobe doesnt in fact break the rules set forth by zos in their ToS/ add-on terms and CoC

Aight, if you're going to slop your responses using AI, then the gloves are off.

__________________________________________________
It's interesting that you used AI to aggregate these clauses, but AI is only as good as the prompts provided. If you ask a machine to find 'evidence of a crime,' it will ignore the 'evidence of innocence.'

Let’s apply some actual Systems Analysis to these specific legal points:

1. Re: The "Unfair Burden" Rule (Add-on Terms 1-iii)

Your AI has misinterpreted 'Burden.' In a technical and legal sense within ZOS's framework, an 'undue burden' refers to Server-Side Stress or Client Instability. It means an addon cannot spam the server with so many requests that it causes lag for other users or crashes the service.

• The Fact: Wizard's Wardrobe sends a discrete burst of packets only when triggered out of combat. It does not stress the Megaserver.
• Social vs. Technical: If a Trial group requires an addon, that is a Social Contract, not a Technical Burden. ZOS does not regulate how players form groups; if they did, 'requiring a certain DPS' would also be an 'unfair burden.'

2. Re: Abuse of Scoring Systems (CoC 5.2)

The claim that swapping gear 'manipulates' time-based scores fundamentally misidentifies the nature of a speed-run.

• The Fact: In ESO Trials, the leaderboard timer runs continuously from the first pull to the final boss's death. This timer includes combat, movement, and preparation. Optimization of any of these phases is the core objective of competitive scoring.
• The Logic: If saving time between pulls via a UI shortcut is 'abuse,' then using a mount to move between bosses faster or using 'Major Gallop' is also 'abuse.' Both use game-authorized mechanics to reduce the total elapsed time.
• The Intent: Scoring systems are designed to reward the group that completes the trial the fastest. ZOS provides an API that allows for gear swapping precisely because they recognize that 'Inventory Management Simulator' is not the skill being tested in a Trial—combat execution and group coordination are. By your AI’s logic, the only 'legitimate' score would be one where players are forbidden from running or using synergies to save time.

3. Re: The "Spirit of the Game" (CoC 5.1)

This clause is a 'Catch-all' designed to ban harassers and gold-sellers. To apply it to a UI mod is a massive reach.

• The Fact: ZOS defines 'Integrity' as the prevention of exploits (like clipping through walls).
• The Reality: If ZOS believed 'community fragmentation' due to addons harmed the game's integrity, they would have removed the API in 2014. Instead, they have consistently expanded it. The 'Spirit of the Game' is defined by the developers, and the developers have provided the tools for this addon to exist.

4. Re: API Access is NOT Legal Consent (TOS Section D)

While ZOS doesn't 'endorse' specific mods, they do Authorize the API. There is a legal distinction between Endorsement (marketing) and Authorization (permission).

• The Fact: ZOS regularly 'breaks' certain API functions (like the ones that used to allow auto-interrupted casts or automated dodging). By not breaking the "EquipItem" or "SlotSkill" functions, they are maintaining an Explicit Permission for those functions to be used by the community.

Your AI analysis focuses on the words of the ToS while ignoring the Enforcement History and Technical Implementation.

If Wizard's Wardrobe were a violation, the 'Hard Fact' is that the authors would be banned and the API functions would be revoked. Since neither has happened in nearly a decade, the only thing being 'burdened' here is this thread by a fundamental misunderstanding of how MMO architecture works. We aren't playing an 'automation suite'; we are playing a modern MMO that values player efficiency.
__________________________________________________

Two can play at that game. You want to continue with the slopfest, or do you want to just ask your AI in a fresh chat whether it thinks Wizard's Wardrobe should be allowed or not?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

I used AI to help aggregate and review these specific legal clauses for accuracy.

....(snipped to highlight the salient point)

While OP is railing and ranting against add-ons for perceived automated game-play they freely admit to using automation to form their posts. May one say hypocrisy and a rather absurd posit?