heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

OP: why is this important to you? How is this hurting you?

it became important for me to showcase what this add-on does when it made ZOS/ eso development revert a system they wanted to put into the game that would of been a great help tool ...

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

I think there’s some misunderstanding here about what ZOS actually considers automation or a violation of the Terms of Use.

I’ve spoken directly with ZOS staff about this topic, and the guidance is very clear:

• Automating gameplay actions (combat, movement, minigames, etc.) is not allowed.
• Menu navigation is not considered gameplay, and streamlining it is allowed.
• Addons may guide the player, but they cannot control gameplay.

Changing gear, skills, CP, or armory builds falls entirely under menu navigation, not gameplay automation. It doesn’t perform combat actions, it doesn’t move the character, and it doesn’t bypass any gameplay mechanics. It simply speeds up UI interactions the player could already do manually.

Nothing in the addon forces actions during combat, plays the game for the user, or interacts with restricted systems like Tribute, Antiquities, or lockpicking. Those are the actual categories ZOS flags as botting.

As for “bypassing armory restrictions,” the addon isn’t doing that. It’s using the same API functions available to every addon and every player. If ZOS wanted to block it, they would disable the API call — just like they’ve done in the past with other functions.

Speedrun leaderboards are not affected by UI automation. They are affected by combat performance, mechanics execution, and group coordination — none of which addons can automate.

This isn’t about attacking anyone. It’s just important to separate:

• Actual gameplay automation (not allowed)
• from
• UI convenience (allowed and explicitly acknowledged by ZOS)

If ZOS ever changes their stance, addon authors will adapt. But based on the current guidance from the developers themselves, these addons are operating within the rules.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

both has nothing to do with automatic actions , but still part of the add-on terms and CoC that are 100% being broken by the add-on

eashi wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

wizard's wardrobe is 100% used in places that has leaderboards/ scoring , PVP ,trials, arena's all 3 wizards wardrobe has full use bybassing the armory / UI respc limits while doing so

These add-on can be used in scored content, yes.
The add-ons do not bi-pass the armory restriction or respec restrictions. They only allow gear and skill switching to happen faster and more accurately. I personally run a different add-on that does it on button press. All of these add-ons only allow you to change gear which is already on your character or switch skills that you already know on your character as long as you are not in combat.

Examples:

I run Sul-xan in trash fights in most trials but not on bosses. On bosses I run ansuul (for the most part). My other gear is typically deadly strike, velothi, and one piece pen (or crit depending on the group).
I could manually change that gear but the add-on allows me to press a button and change it faster and more accurately. As long as I set it up correctly it will change it correctly every time as long as I am not in combat. I also might change out a back bar staff to a 2h.

The addon also allows you to change skills while out of combat.
An example from my Sunspire set-ups:

pardon the MS PAINT UI

You should be able to notice that the skills are different but I have spent skill points in all of those skills, no morphs have changed. Once again this could be done manually but the add-on has allowed it to happen faster with a higher accuracy once I set it up.

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

OP: why is this important to you? How is this hurting you?

it became important for me to showcase what this add-on does when it made ZOS/ eso development revert a system they wanted to put into the game that would of been a great help tool ...

Heimdall, I don't know how many times I have to tell you this: it wasn't wizard's wardrobe that was why on-demand respecs were removed from scored content. Wizard's wardrobe doesn't even have the function of letting you respec. Even if there were no addons that engaged with the respec system, that wouldn't stop people from making people change subclasses between fights. They'd just have to do it manually.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

I think there’s some misunderstanding here about what ZOS actually considers automation or a violation of the Terms of Use.

I’ve spoken directly with ZOS staff about this topic, and the guidance is very clear:

• Automating gameplay actions (combat, movement, minigames, etc.) is not allowed.
• Menu navigation is not considered gameplay, and streamlining it is allowed.
• Addons may guide the player, but they cannot control gameplay.

Changing gear, skills, CP, or armory builds falls entirely under menu navigation, not gameplay automation. It doesn’t perform combat actions, it doesn’t move the character, and it doesn’t bypass any gameplay mechanics. It simply speeds up UI interactions the player could already do manually.

Nothing in the addon forces actions during combat, plays the game for the user, or interacts with restricted systems like Tribute, Antiquities, or lockpicking. Those are the actual categories ZOS flags as botting.

As for “bypassing armory restrictions,” the addon isn’t doing that. It’s using the same API functions available to every addon and every player. If ZOS wanted to block it, they would disable the API call — just like they’ve done in the past with other functions.

Speedrun leaderboards are not affected by UI automation. They are affected by combat performance, mechanics execution, and group coordination — none of which addons can automate.

This isn’t about attacking anyone. It’s just important to separate:

• Actual gameplay automation (not allowed)
• from
• UI convenience (allowed and explicitly acknowledged by ZOS)

If ZOS ever changes their stance, addon authors will adapt. But based on the current guidance from the developers themselves, these addons are operating within the rules.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

both has nothing to do with automatic actions , but still part of the add-on terms and CoC that are 100% being broken by the add-on

Whether you like it or not, it's very clearly allowed by ZOS, as shown by that screenshot. In particular, looking up the employee on LinkedIn, he's a lead UI engineer and been with ZOS for ~12 years... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about...

Besides, the consequences of removing addons like Wizards Wardrobe would be horrible. I know I wouldn't be able to play the way I do anymore (I have a trash and a boss build when tanking because I can't stand to mix the two builds together), so I would possibly just quit. Do you want less tanks in the game? Also, there's nothing being exploited here. There's no bug being exploited.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

OP: why is this important to you? How is this hurting you?

it became important for me to showcase what this add-on does when it made ZOS/ eso development revert a system they wanted to put into the game that would of been a great help tool ...

Heimdall, I don't know how many times I have to tell you this: it wasn't wizard's wardrobe that was why on-demand respecs were removed from scored content. Wizard's wardrobe doesn't even have the function of letting you respec. Even if there were no addons that engaged with the respec system, that wouldn't stop people from making people change subclasses between fights. They'd just have to do it manually.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

I think there’s some misunderstanding here about what ZOS actually considers automation or a violation of the Terms of Use.

I’ve spoken directly with ZOS staff about this topic, and the guidance is very clear:

• Automating gameplay actions (combat, movement, minigames, etc.) is not allowed.
• Menu navigation is not considered gameplay, and streamlining it is allowed.
• Addons may guide the player, but they cannot control gameplay.

Changing gear, skills, CP, or armory builds falls entirely under menu navigation, not gameplay automation. It doesn’t perform combat actions, it doesn’t move the character, and it doesn’t bypass any gameplay mechanics. It simply speeds up UI interactions the player could already do manually.

Nothing in the addon forces actions during combat, plays the game for the user, or interacts with restricted systems like Tribute, Antiquities, or lockpicking. Those are the actual categories ZOS flags as botting.

As for “bypassing armory restrictions,” the addon isn’t doing that. It’s using the same API functions available to every addon and every player. If ZOS wanted to block it, they would disable the API call — just like they’ve done in the past with other functions.

Speedrun leaderboards are not affected by UI automation. They are affected by combat performance, mechanics execution, and group coordination — none of which addons can automate.

This isn’t about attacking anyone. It’s just important to separate:

• Actual gameplay automation (not allowed)
• from
• UI convenience (allowed and explicitly acknowledged by ZOS)

If ZOS ever changes their stance, addon authors will adapt. But based on the current guidance from the developers themselves, these addons are operating within the rules.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

both has nothing to do with automatic actions , but still part of the add-on terms and CoC that are 100% being broken by the add-on

Whether you like it or not, it's very clearly allowed by ZOS, as shown by that screenshot. In particular, looking up the employee on LinkedIn, he's a lead UI engineer and been with ZOS for ~12 years... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about...

Besides, the consequences of removing addons like Wizards Wardrobe would be horrible. I know I wouldn't be able to play the way I do anymore (I have a trash and a boss build when tanking because I can't stand to mix the two builds together), so I would possibly just quit. Do you want less tanks in the game? Also, there's nothing being exploited here. There's no bug being exploited.

popularity of a exploit nor who made it should be the reason to keep it

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

OP: why is this important to you? How is this hurting you?

it became important for me to showcase what this add-on does when it made ZOS/ eso development revert a system they wanted to put into the game that would of been a great help tool ...

Heimdall, I don't know how many times I have to tell you this: it wasn't wizard's wardrobe that was why on-demand respecs were removed from scored content. Wizard's wardrobe doesn't even have the function of letting you respec. Even if there were no addons that engaged with the respec system, that wouldn't stop people from making people change subclasses between fights. They'd just have to do it manually.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

I think there’s some misunderstanding here about what ZOS actually considers automation or a violation of the Terms of Use.

I’ve spoken directly with ZOS staff about this topic, and the guidance is very clear:

• Automating gameplay actions (combat, movement, minigames, etc.) is not allowed.
• Menu navigation is not considered gameplay, and streamlining it is allowed.
• Addons may guide the player, but they cannot control gameplay.

Changing gear, skills, CP, or armory builds falls entirely under menu navigation, not gameplay automation. It doesn’t perform combat actions, it doesn’t move the character, and it doesn’t bypass any gameplay mechanics. It simply speeds up UI interactions the player could already do manually.

Nothing in the addon forces actions during combat, plays the game for the user, or interacts with restricted systems like Tribute, Antiquities, or lockpicking. Those are the actual categories ZOS flags as botting.

As for “bypassing armory restrictions,” the addon isn’t doing that. It’s using the same API functions available to every addon and every player. If ZOS wanted to block it, they would disable the API call — just like they’ve done in the past with other functions.

Speedrun leaderboards are not affected by UI automation. They are affected by combat performance, mechanics execution, and group coordination — none of which addons can automate.

This isn’t about attacking anyone. It’s just important to separate:

• Actual gameplay automation (not allowed)
• from
• UI convenience (allowed and explicitly acknowledged by ZOS)

If ZOS ever changes their stance, addon authors will adapt. But based on the current guidance from the developers themselves, these addons are operating within the rules.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

both has nothing to do with automatic actions , but still part of the add-on terms and CoC that are 100% being broken by the add-on

Whether you like it or not, it's very clearly allowed by ZOS, as shown by that screenshot. In particular, looking up the employee on LinkedIn, he's a lead UI engineer and been with ZOS for ~12 years... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about...

Besides, the consequences of removing addons like Wizards Wardrobe would be horrible. I know I wouldn't be able to play the way I do anymore (I have a trash and a boss build when tanking because I can't stand to mix the two builds together), so I would possibly just quit. Do you want less tanks in the game? Also, there's nothing being exploited here. There's no bug being exploited.

popularity of a exploit nor who made it should be the reason to keep it

Doesn't make it an exploit, who made it isn't relevant, and you're still ignoring that 1-- a ZOS employee flat out gave guidelines that the addon does not surpass and 2-- that wizard's wardrobe doesn't have anything to do with why respecs were taken out of scored content.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

OP: why is this important to you? How is this hurting you?

it became important for me to showcase what this add-on does when it made ZOS/ eso development revert a system they wanted to put into the game that would of been a great help tool ...

Heimdall, I don't know how many times I have to tell you this: it wasn't wizard's wardrobe that was why on-demand respecs were removed from scored content. Wizard's wardrobe doesn't even have the function of letting you respec. Even if there were no addons that engaged with the respec system, that wouldn't stop people from making people change subclasses between fights. They'd just have to do it manually.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Dack_Janiels wrote: »

I think there’s some misunderstanding here about what ZOS actually considers automation or a violation of the Terms of Use.

I’ve spoken directly with ZOS staff about this topic, and the guidance is very clear:

• Automating gameplay actions (combat, movement, minigames, etc.) is not allowed.
• Menu navigation is not considered gameplay, and streamlining it is allowed.
• Addons may guide the player, but they cannot control gameplay.

Changing gear, skills, CP, or armory builds falls entirely under menu navigation, not gameplay automation. It doesn’t perform combat actions, it doesn’t move the character, and it doesn’t bypass any gameplay mechanics. It simply speeds up UI interactions the player could already do manually.

Nothing in the addon forces actions during combat, plays the game for the user, or interacts with restricted systems like Tribute, Antiquities, or lockpicking. Those are the actual categories ZOS flags as botting.

As for “bypassing armory restrictions,” the addon isn’t doing that. It’s using the same API functions available to every addon and every player. If ZOS wanted to block it, they would disable the API call — just like they’ve done in the past with other functions.

Speedrun leaderboards are not affected by UI automation. They are affected by combat performance, mechanics execution, and group coordination — none of which addons can automate.

This isn’t about attacking anyone. It’s just important to separate:

• Actual gameplay automation (not allowed)
• from
• UI convenience (allowed and explicitly acknowledged by ZOS)

If ZOS ever changes their stance, addon authors will adapt. But based on the current guidance from the developers themselves, these addons are operating within the rules.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

both has nothing to do with automatic actions , but still part of the add-on terms and CoC that are 100% being broken by the add-on

Whether you like it or not, it's very clearly allowed by ZOS, as shown by that screenshot. In particular, looking up the employee on LinkedIn, he's a lead UI engineer and been with ZOS for ~12 years... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about...

Besides, the consequences of removing addons like Wizards Wardrobe would be horrible. I know I wouldn't be able to play the way I do anymore (I have a trash and a boss build when tanking because I can't stand to mix the two builds together), so I would possibly just quit. Do you want less tanks in the game? Also, there's nothing being exploited here. There's no bug being exploited.

popularity of a exploit nor who made it should be the reason to keep it

Doesn't make it an exploit, who made it isn't relevant, and you're still ignoring that 1-- a ZOS employee flat out gave guidelines that the addon does not surpass and 2-- that wizard's wardrobe doesn't have anything to do with why respecs were taken out of scored content.

Add-on Terms of Use 1 (iii) undue or unfair burden to the Game, its Services, including customer service support, and/or to other users.
anything that gives a advantage is a burden on other users , as they may have a low grade system that cant handle the use of out-side add-ons , ps4 and xbox 1 , 1s,1x all cant even try to use add-ons but has the game available for play so its fair to say thats an financial burden that add-ons placed on the players after 10 years of using the game

Code of Conduct 5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game

this CoC makes it a exploit because it affects SCORING

Morvan wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Gear swapping addons are basically as old as light attack weaving at this point. I used one called AlphaGear or something like that and the Wizards but I uninstalled both since I don't care about sweating. Kind of funny but I did install a UI addon because I liked the gear icons from AlphaGear and missed that one aspect.

ALL ADD-ONS ARE JUST A YEAR OLD ON CONSOLES and ive been fighting for 6 months now to show the harm this one does

There is no real harm, it just does something which can be done by hand quicker. Everyone can use it if they choose and there is no added advantage other than convenience and time saving. If those are worth it just install the addon(s), simple as that.

Ya'll want crossplay, time to get used to needing to adapt to modern gaming and what PC players have been doing for years.

SPEED in SPEED RUNS is a advantage 2.5 seconds to do what it takes the player 30+ seconds ( thats being overly fair on time as its more like 45-60 seconds) is a 2.75 minute difference in getting GODSLAYER or NOT , top times are 27-28 minutes with 30 being the cut off so without side add-on how many groups would have failed not having 2.75 minutes saved

So by your logic, NVME SSDs should be a bannable offense because they offer players a few seconds in advantage between loading screens.

Down with the NVMEs! It's taking the game integrity away!

no but id say its a good reason not to do crossplay as by doing so they will be putting all console players at a disadvantage to them on PC

Just like PS5 players have an "advantage" against PS4 players? Your logic is dull.

I understand your view though, you have made the decision to self-restrict yourself and not use WW, which would be totally fine IF you were not trying to impose the same view to other players. If that "advantage" bothers you so much, don't you think it would just be easier to level yourself up and try the add-on instead of forcing others to whatever you deem the correct pace?

The logic you are using, deeming WW "unfair" for making menial tasks faster can be applied to pretty much every add-on in the game, because their goal is mainly to optimize gameplay and make our lives easier, should we ban every add-on then?

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

... big picture of ZOS FAVORING ADD-ON DEVELOPERS over their own TOS/COC/ADD-ON TERMS

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

I fear the day you find out what Code's Combat Alerts can do.

i know what codes does and i also understand zos wont do anything about it because of whom the maker is just like here with wizards , its just showing the brake down of zos's enforcement of its rules to favor plyers over others thank you for bringing it up tho , might we add in perfect weave with its ability to suppress skills to in-put a light attack between each skill ?????
your just helping me show a big picture of ZOS FAVORING ADD-ON DEVELOPERS over their own TOS/COC/ADD-ON TERMS

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Gear swapping addons are basically as old as light attack weaving at this point. I used one called AlphaGear or something like that and the Wizards but I uninstalled both since I don't care about sweating. Kind of funny but I did install a UI addon because I liked the gear icons from AlphaGear and missed that one aspect.

ALL ADD-ONS ARE JUST A YEAR OLD ON CONSOLES and ive been fighting for 6 months now to show the harm this one does

There is no real harm, it just does something which can be done by hand quicker. Everyone can use it if they choose and there is no added advantage other than convenience and time saving. If those are worth it just install the addon(s), simple as that.

Ya'll want crossplay, time to get used to needing to adapt to modern gaming and what PC players have been doing for years.

SPEED in SPEED RUNS is a advantage 2.5 seconds to do what it takes the player 30+ seconds ( thats being overly fair on time as its more like 45-60 seconds) is a 2.75 minute difference in getting GODSLAYER or NOT , top times are 27-28 minutes with 30 being the cut off so without side add-on how many groups would have failed not having 2.75 minutes saved

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Gear swapping addons are basically as old as light attack weaving at this point. I used one called AlphaGear or something like that and the Wizards but I uninstalled both since I don't care about sweating. Kind of funny but I did install a UI addon because I liked the gear icons from AlphaGear and missed that one aspect.

ALL ADD-ONS ARE JUST A YEAR OLD ON CONSOLES and ive been fighting for 6 months now to show the harm this one does

There is no real harm, it just does something which can be done by hand quicker. Everyone can use it if they choose and there is no added advantage other than convenience and time saving. If those are worth it just install the addon(s), simple as that.

Ya'll want crossplay, time to get used to needing to adapt to modern gaming and what PC players have been doing for years.

SPEED in SPEED RUNS is a advantage 2.5 seconds to do what it takes the player 30+ seconds ( thats being overly fair on time as its more like 45-60 seconds) is a 2.75 minute difference in getting GODSLAYER or NOT , top times are 27-28 minutes with 30 being the cut off so without side add-on how many groups would have failed not having 2.75 minutes saved

Flawed premise. I run a trial trifecta prog group, I've asked people to stop using WW because it breaks often, or fails to load profiles correctly which in-turn means players are focussed on having the wrong build, or they have only half a build. Since the change we shaved 2 minutes off our typical runtime.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Gear swapping addons are basically as old as light attack weaving at this point. I used one called AlphaGear or something like that and the Wizards but I uninstalled both since I don't care about sweating. Kind of funny but I did install a UI addon because I liked the gear icons from AlphaGear and missed that one aspect.

ALL ADD-ONS ARE JUST A YEAR OLD ON CONSOLES and ive been fighting for 6 months now to show the harm this one does

There is no real harm, it just does something which can be done by hand quicker. Everyone can use it if they choose and there is no added advantage other than convenience and time saving. If those are worth it just install the addon(s), simple as that.

Ya'll want crossplay, time to get used to needing to adapt to modern gaming and what PC players have been doing for years.

SPEED in SPEED RUNS is a advantage 2.5 seconds to do what it takes the player 30+ seconds ( thats being overly fair on time as its more like 45-60 seconds) is a 2.75 minute difference in getting GODSLAYER or NOT , top times are 27-28 minutes with 30 being the cut off so without side add-on how many groups would have failed not having 2.75 minutes saved

Flawed premise. I run a trial trifecta prog group, I've asked people to stop using WW because it breaks often, or fails to load profiles correctly which in-turn means players are focussed on having the wrong build, or they have only half a build. Since the change we shaved 2 minutes off our typical runtime.

am sorry the add-on has failed you but in my testing of it 8 vma runs , 6 trials , and in pvp have i ever had it fail to load up right , and im sorry to say i cant believe the part about saving time not using it as no player can switch everything out in under 2.5 seconds like the add-on does

Again, a flawed premise. I asked them to stop switching completely. Same set for trash and bosses.