Why Werewolf should be as strong as Dragonknight while having drawbacks

IncultaWolf · May 1

I originally posted most of this in the official feedback thread, but that thread has now been plagued by trolling, whining, and ragebaiting instead of constructive criticism

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh. It seems most players/pvpers aren't asking for it to be toned down either, so this class should be the standard going forward with future updates and refreshes.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

I play both pvp and pve extensively and have always wanted werewolf to be competitive with everyone else. I understand that there must be drawbacks to being a one-bar playstyle and I imagine this is very difficult for the devs to balance around. I personally wish werewolf wasn't forced into one bar and had access to two, but I also know that's not a possibility right now in the scope of this refresh.

I and other players have mentioned the possibility of class mastery passives being disabled in form as these might become problematic down the line and after new classes get updated. Having our own unique variants of "werewolf mastery passives" to choose from would be much preferred or putting the power back into the actual toolkit instead of further nerfs.

Wuuffyy · May 1

I don’t know anything. I just think it should have 1 singular semi-burst move if DK has 3. Maybe I’m asking for too much. I mean you could literally give it a version of Stonefist that DK already has along with removing the guaranteed status effect on Rip and Tear and potentially replacing it with just minor breach so “parses” stay roughly the same.

Sorry y’all, out of place again. I guess I’ll just stack a bunch of health-based heals with Signet and class masteries and then fade back into mediocrity when they nerf/ “fix” all of that.

SlagasaurusRex · May 1

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I originally posted most of this in the official feedback thread, but that thread has now been plagued by trolling, whining, and ragebaiting instead of constructive criticism

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh. It seems most players/pvpers aren't asking for it to be toned down either, so this class should be the standard going forward with future updates and refreshes.

I and other players have mentioned the possibility of class mastery passives being disabled in form as these might become problematic down the line and after new classes get updated. Having our own unique variants of "werewolf mastery passives" to choose from would be much preferred or putting the power back into the actual toolkit instead of further nerfs.

I don't know if the current drawbacks are enough to balance its current PTS strength and don't feel fully capable of commenting further without additional testing. But I wanted to write here to say that there *is* a need for a separate thread at this point for actual constructive feedback.

Ataskir · May 2

I think, visually, werewolf should look far stronger. Reducing the weapon damage below how it is on live does not satisfy that.

The new Werebeast should look menacing, exciting, and viable to play. I’d think a werewolf player would be pretty disappointed to hop into the update and see that their damage is lower than before. Sure there’s some insane potential now with masteries, but you need to learn that knowledge, which of course in my opinion, should be rewarded.

The direction the game is in looks very exciting, with classes getting banger upgrades to bring them up to par with a new standard. If werewolf falls below that new standard, then we’ll be right back to being niche, gimmicky, and unviable.

Just be patient, I’m sure the rest of the reworks will be just as, or even more insane!

dark_hunterxmg · May 2

If werewolf had utility like this we'd be in okay shape. Aside from missing a gap closer and some major buffs, there are a lot of tools just in these 5 skills that are very strong.

huskandhunger · May 2

I like the concept of a dedicated werewolf mastery or scope of progression that could enable werewolf players to specialize their werewolf abilities and playstyle further and maybe this could be the path by which an accompanying grimoire ability could be introduced.

As for class mastery passives being disabled, I don't think I have a clear enough perspective of ZOS' overarching vision yet between class elements and Werewolf interactions. E.g. vampires retain their weapon and class bonuses in form and it's just a slippery slope of what gets included or what doesn't and I don't want to eat anymore nerfs. I'm tired of them.

coop500 · May 2

Yeah I don't WANT to lose class masteries, but I also rather not get nerfed so far into the dirt that I HAVE to run a puresorc or a pureDk to get decent numbers with WW either. It's very much a give or take situation.

And currently consider me in the bargaining stage of grief lol.

Dracane · May 2

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah I don't WANT to lose class masteries, but I also rather not get nerfed so far into the dirt that I HAVE to run a puresorc or a pureDk to get decent numbers with WW either. It's very much a give or take situation.

And currently consider me in the bargaining stage of grief lol.

Warden, Nightblade, Sorc and DK all produce high damage output with Werewolf. That is most of the classes already. The other pure classes don't work well because their offensive perks are too strongly intervowen with their kit. (As it should be)
Chances are good that you consider one of these 4 your main or playable?

dark_hunterxmg · May 2

My issue with class masteries is that they seemed to be a temporary measure until the class is reworked. Once that happens, the mastery will likely get nerfed and so will your wolf. I want to keep them separate so werewolves don't take nerfs because a pure class is strong. I get wanting to keep them, I just don't think it is the way forward. Unfortunately ZOS wouldn't have werewolf masteries written and time soon even if they said yes.
The only werewolf buffs we've seen in the recent history came because classes got buffed, not because werewolf got buffed. Anything else done to Werewolf was more of a nerf than a buff.
We should be demanding customers here. I personally don't like the new wolf at all. I think it won't perform the way I want it to.

coop500 · May 2

Dracane wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah I don't WANT to lose class masteries, but I also rather not get nerfed so far into the dirt that I HAVE to run a puresorc or a pureDk to get decent numbers with WW either. It's very much a give or take situation.

And currently consider me in the bargaining stage of grief lol.

Warden, Nightblade, Sorc and DK all produce high damage output with Werewolf. That is most of the classes already. The other pure classes don't work well because their offensive perks are too strongly intervowen with their kit. (As it should be)
Chances are good that you consider one of these 4 your main or playable?

My main is Warden, and I like using that Glacial Maw passive, but that defeats the point of what I'm talking about.

If those four classes are over-preforming on WW (not saying either way) and WW as a whole is getting nerfed because of that, then I almost rather not have the class masteries after all. Assuming they're making it so WW will largely suck as the other classes.

(And when I mean suck, I mean leagues behind the meta builds even when built to the full extent. irrelevant, the RP choice, like we've been since the game released.)

coop500 · May 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

My issue with class masteries is that they seemed to be a temporary measure until the class is reworked. Once that happens, the mastery will likely get nerfed and so will your wolf. I want to keep them separate so werewolves don't take nerfs because a pure class is strong. I get wanting to keep them, I just don't think it is the way forward. Unfortunately ZOS wouldn't have werewolf masteries written and time soon even if they said yes.
The only werewolf buffs we've seen in the recent history came because classes got buffed, not because werewolf got buffed. Anything else done to Werewolf was more of a nerf than a buff.
We should be demanding customers here. I personally don't like the new wolf at all. I think it won't perform the way I want it to.

Yup, this is my new concern as well. Werewolf has a long history of catching unintended nerf strays over the years too. Indirect things being stripped away.

Dracane · May 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

My issue with class masteries is that they seemed to be a temporary measure until the class is reworked. Once that happens, the mastery will likely get nerfed and so will your wolf. I want to keep them separate so werewolves don't take nerfs because a pure class is strong. I get wanting to keep them, I just don't think it is the way forward. Unfortunately ZOS wouldn't have werewolf masteries written and time soon even if they said yes.
The only werewolf buffs we've seen in the recent history came because classes got buffed, not because werewolf got buffed. Anything else done to Werewolf was more of a nerf than a buff.
We should be demanding customers here. I personally don't like the new wolf at all. I think it won't perform the way I want it to.

This is a serious concern not often spoken of. This is bound to be dramatic when this time comes.
If ZoS is prepared to

coop500 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah I don't WANT to lose class masteries, but I also rather not get nerfed so far into the dirt that I HAVE to run a puresorc or a pureDk to get decent numbers with WW either. It's very much a give or take situation.

And currently consider me in the bargaining stage of grief lol.

Warden, Nightblade, Sorc and DK all produce high damage output with Werewolf. That is most of the classes already. The other pure classes don't work well because their offensive perks are too strongly intervowen with their kit. (As it should be)
Chances are good that you consider one of these 4 your main or playable?

My main is Warden, and I like using that Glacial Maw passive, but that defeats the point of what I'm talking about.

If those four classes are over-preforming on WW (not saying either way) and WW as a whole is getting nerfed because of that, then I almost rather not have the class masteries after all. Assuming they're making it so WW will largely suck as the other classes.

(And when I mean suck, I mean leagues behind the meta builds even when built to the full extent. irrelevant, the RP choice, like we've been since the game released.)

This is a serious concern. Like someone else mentioned: what when other classes receive their remaster and have their class masteries slaughtered as a result, and yet Werewolf is currently balanced around having them, this will have dire consequences.

Unless ZoS would react dynamically and just buff Werewolf up as this happens, which in itself will lead to months of potential imbalance. Say Warden and Sorc get their masteries nerfed and Werewolf buffed to compensate, well, it will then be exceptionally strong using the still powerful Nightblade and DK passives.

The only sound solution is to disable class masteries and just making Werewolf's own passives stronger. (And no, not Werewolf masteries, because Werewolf already is its own thing.)

coop500 · May 2

Dracane wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

My issue with class masteries is that they seemed to be a temporary measure until the class is reworked. Once that happens, the mastery will likely get nerfed and so will your wolf. I want to keep them separate so werewolves don't take nerfs because a pure class is strong. I get wanting to keep them, I just don't think it is the way forward. Unfortunately ZOS wouldn't have werewolf masteries written and time soon even if they said yes.
The only werewolf buffs we've seen in the recent history came because classes got buffed, not because werewolf got buffed. Anything else done to Werewolf was more of a nerf than a buff.
We should be demanding customers here. I personally don't like the new wolf at all. I think it won't perform the way I want it to.

This is a serious concern not often spoken of. This is bound to be dramatic when this time comes.
If ZoS is prepared to

coop500 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah I don't WANT to lose class masteries, but I also rather not get nerfed so far into the dirt that I HAVE to run a puresorc or a pureDk to get decent numbers with WW either. It's very much a give or take situation.

And currently consider me in the bargaining stage of grief lol.

Warden, Nightblade, Sorc and DK all produce high damage output with Werewolf. That is most of the classes already. The other pure classes don't work well because their offensive perks are too strongly intervowen with their kit. (As it should be)
Chances are good that you consider one of these 4 your main or playable?

My main is Warden, and I like using that Glacial Maw passive, but that defeats the point of what I'm talking about.

If those four classes are over-preforming on WW (not saying either way) and WW as a whole is getting nerfed because of that, then I almost rather not have the class masteries after all. Assuming they're making it so WW will largely suck as the other classes.

(And when I mean suck, I mean leagues behind the meta builds even when built to the full extent. irrelevant, the RP choice, like we've been since the game released.)

This is a serious concern. Like someone else mentioned: what when other classes receive their remaster and have their class masteries slaughtered as a result, and yet Werewolf is currently balanced around having them, this will have dire consequences.

Unless ZoS would react dynamically and just buff Werewolf up as this happens, which in itself will lead to months of potential imbalance. Say Warden and Sorc get their masteries nerfed and Werewolf buffed to compensate, well, it will then be exceptionally strong using the still powerful Nightblade and DK passives.

The only sound solution is to disable class masteries and just making Werewolf's own passives stronger. (And no, not Werewolf masteries, because Werewolf already is its own thing.)

I'm inclined to agree. I don't LIKE it, but if the alternative is this (constant stream of nerfs and then forgotten about) then I'll defo take it, because yikes.

Wuuffyy · May 2

coop500 wrote: »

If those four classes are over-preforming on WW (not saying either way) and WW as a whole is getting nerfed because of that, then I almost rather not have the class masteries after all. Assuming they're making it so WW will largely suck as the other classes

I think the best and only way to be fair to everyone is the add a ‘werewolf mastery’ while transformed with the same pick 2/5 system-I’ve already mentioned in my suggestions for what these could be and they don’t need/have to offer outright or drastic damage increases for any of those options. And can even be changed later on once the system for werewolf itself is ‘set’.

Hekk, they don’t even need animations, they’re simply just a version of passives, and they already have the system as a whole so I feel that it should be easy enough to implement.

Ataskir · May 6

Last thing I want is less diversity in WW builds. I want my Warden werewolf to be different to a DK werewolf, and class masteries are really good at supporting said differences.

Homogenization is awful and boring, so please don’t take away masteries unless we get our own WW masteries in return.

Not everyone plays DPS wolf, some of us like tanking and disruption!