Please re-balance Serpent's Disdain next

VinnyGambini · May 6

Luneca wrote: »

pinkpom wrote: »

I'm interested in "little-known disgusting builds."

It's just an exaggeration for what countered their META build. No one seriously uses the set how they claim they are outside of their little bubble, which is why it has not and will not gain relevency on live.

They can pretend it isn't the case all they want, cite imaginary numbers, friends, whatever. But it doesn't change the fact that the set is mid. And that's reality. Reality to the point that they themselves will not run it.

Instead insulting and baiting will be the answer that anyone that questions them will get. Look at how long they've ran this post and still haven't added any meat to the meat and potatoes that was expected.

It's exactly why no one takes the PvP community seriously in this game and why PvP is an unbalanced mess. Not that anyone should take it seroiusly since it's completely skilless this patch and previous recent patches anyway.

This set is mid?

O RLY???

Last PC EU class tournament - relequen was banned (as it is now nerfed). 3 out of 4 TOP players used serpent disdain.

"top players will shrug it off" - Yea sure. 3 out of 4 TOP players used serpent disdain.

This is currently the strongest 1v1 set in the game, this is a fact, not opinion. With new mythic, it's even more OP.

Also besides all discussion, one extremly important question:

Why disable rele in PvP, but don't touch disdain in PvP? How is that fair for rele users?

How about we nerf spinners set, but we don't touch spriggans set?

Care to explain this logic? (this is rhetorical question)

acanca · May 6

I use this set on a brawler with signet, i think its pretty good but i wouldnt say its overpowered.

My main point is that it actually doesnt do as much as you think it does.

Take Elemental Susceptibility for example. It applies burning, chill, concussed at 7.5 seconds intervals, this means you apply burning, chill concussed at 0, at 2 seconds burning ticks and chill and concussed are still applied, at 4 seconds burning ticks for the last time and chilled and concussed ends. at 6 seconds you miss 1 tick of burning, at 7.5 seconds the skill applies these status effects again and the cycle repeats. So basically you miss 1.5 ticks worth of time for not using serpents disdain.
Same thing with hemorrhaging and poisoned, you already apply hemorrhaging guaranteed from blood for blood and the poisoned is applied basically whenever the status effect is over via weapon enchant.

Obviously i dont wanna down play its upside, these assume that you do hit that blood for blood, you do hit your la and whenever some one roll dodges away, los breaks you, streaks or when you are forced into the defensive you are likely to not be doing those. So yes its great for making your damage consistent, i just dont think its this boogeyman its made out to be.

pinkpom · May 6

Do you think the results of the Pure class duel tournament will influence the future of ESO?

xylena · May 6

Burtan wrote: »

Please feel free to show me another set which provides anything close to its value

Draugrkin or Dragon's Appetite were significantly stronger on MDW/Vate/Maarselok style layouts prior to the introduction of Shattered Path Signet.

Serpent's Disdain was only particularly efficient on the front bar a of a StamSorc running BFB since it snapshots Hemo and Poisoned without wasting space on back bar Ele Sus.

But now there's Shattered Path Signet, which is pushing a lot of different pressure tools like Ele Sus in ways they should not be pushed, that stupid busted pos mythic is 100% your problem.

ceruulean · May 6

Draugrkin on the body with arena weapons is a light armor set and gives a heal debuff so even if it does more damage, it's balanced because you are defensively weaker.

Dragons Appetite requires you to hit the target with bleed, and most good bleed skills are single target melee. You also have to continuously cast skills and deal damage to benefit from the set effect.

Serpents Disdain has craftable armor weights and works with AoE and ranged applications of status. You can ramp up damage more quickly on multiple targets than with dragons appetite. Even if the opponent purges, you can reapply the dot with guaranteed status effect skills or DK passives. The opponent just wasted mag, GCD, and is back to square one. And status effects deal damage for you, so you can turtle on the backbar.

If you have a teammate templar purge synergy, sure it negates Serpents Disdain. However the synergy goes on CD for 20 seconds, and templar is now a terrible pvp class, susceptible to getting bursted and can't cleanse their own status to live long enough to provide purge synergies so you won't see many.

xylena · May 6

ceruulean wrote: »

Serpents Disdain has craftable armor weights and works with AoE and ranged applications

None of these sets are a problem. Serpent's was fine until Shattered Path Signet pushed status damage to stupid levels. Nerfing Serpent's will not save you from the hell of being constantly melted down by Xv1 ranged LA + Ele Sus + Threads powered by Shattered Path Signet.

Or nah let's preserve the Precious Ring and nerf Threads of War too /s

VinnyGambini · May 6

pinkpom wrote: »

Do you think the results of the Pure class duel tournament will influence the future of ESO?

IMO it should have inffluence the PvP state. You can neft set or new mythic, or both ONLY for PvP state. Just like rele was nerfed ONLY for PvP.

Wuuffyy · May 6

pinkpom wrote: »

Do you think the results of the Pure class duel tournament will influence the future of ESO?

No stawp, this killed me

Burtan · May 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Once again:

Serpents has existed for years and has only ever been niche.

Shattered Path Signet is the busted new mythic pushing status damage like crazy.

People have been making disgusting builds with Disdain for a long time, it just wasn't widely known about. That doesn't make it balanced and isn't relevant to the current time.

It performs better than DoT sets and Debuff sets at the same time and it is present in top duel builds that are winning tourneys as well as in all the most broken builds coming out of the current PTS.

Removing the new mythic does not make this set balanced in any shape or form, i personally have used this set extensively and struggle to find anything that compares to it, especially on sorcerer and for a number of reasons.

Please feel free to show me another set which provides anything close to its value.

Long time set, widely used in duels which have no relation to other pvp. It works great if you build for it and if you are targeting the bottom 75% of players. Top players shrug it off.

My experience is that you can reapply the status effects/debuffs so easily in many cases 20s timer is a waste.

Which definitely says something about the insane proliferation of auto-procs for status effects. Something that probably should be audited by the devs at some point very soon.

I agree with this and the point it is replying to, if status effects were widely changed then this set may naturally not be as much of a problem. Such changes would have to be severe to really bring this item set down and limit its interactions with things like maarselok.

i just see hitting this set with a nerf hammer as a more simple and therefore more likely solution since this item set is currently the thing pushing this problem the most in PvP in my opinion and asking for broader status effect changes would be difficult and be met with significant push-back i feel.

Burtan · May 6

xylena wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Please feel free to show me another set which provides anything close to its value

Draugrkin or Dragon's Appetite were significantly stronger on MDW/Vate/Maarselok style layouts prior to the introduction of Shattered Path Signet.

Serpent's Disdain was only particularly efficient on the front bar a of a StamSorc running BFB since it snapshots Hemo and Poisoned without wasting space on back bar Ele Sus.

But now there's Shattered Path Signet, which is pushing a lot of different pressure tools like Ele Sus in ways they should not be pushed, that stupid busted pos mythic is 100% your problem.

This simply isn't true and duel tourneys are proving it. As someone else said, Disdain is being used by the majority of top duelists and those winning tourneys, not Draugrkin or Dragons Appetite.

This was the case before the new mythic was added, signet just added to the problem.

Burtan · May 6

pinkpom wrote: »

Do you think the results of the Pure class duel tournament will influence the future of ESO?

In PvP, yes. It is why i asked for 'Battle Spirit only' changes so that we don't need to hold back the health of PvP gameplay for the sake of PvE and vice versa.

Dracane · May 6

Burtan wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Please feel free to show me another set which provides anything close to its value

Draugrkin or Dragon's Appetite were significantly stronger on MDW/Vate/Maarselok style layouts prior to the introduction of Shattered Path Signet.

Serpent's Disdain was only particularly efficient on the front bar a of a StamSorc running BFB since it snapshots Hemo and Poisoned without wasting space on back bar Ele Sus.

But now there's Shattered Path Signet, which is pushing a lot of different pressure tools like Ele Sus in ways they should not be pushed, that stupid busted pos mythic is 100% your problem.

This simply isn't true and duel tourneys are proving it. As someone else said, Disdain is being used by the majority of top duelists and those winning tourneys, not Draugrkin or Dragons Appetite.

This was the case before the new mythic was added, signet just added to the problem.

Indeed. To say Serpent's only suddenly became strong with the Mythic is false, just like how Ele Sus was strong long before the Mythic. It just changed how these things are used.

xylena · May 6

Burtan wrote: »

This simply isn't true and duel tourneys are proving it. As someone else said, Disdain is being used by the majority of top duelists and those winning tourneys

My bad for being out of date on dueling but why is this a bad thing? The fact that it isn't 100% of dueling builds is more balance than dueling usually has, and it has never warped OW play the way something like Zaan+Mist or ranged Savage WW BowSorc pressure builds have.

Now if you take a top dueling set and crank up its power with a busted new mythic that also breaks a ton of other sets and mechanics, enabling heinous cheese strats... is the dueling set the problem or the new mythic? I wouldn't shed any tears if they nuked Serpent's from the game but it really isn't much compared to all the other crap Shattered Path enables.

Jierdanit · 12:31PM

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This set is mid?

O RLY???

Last PC EU class tournament - relequen was banned (as it is now nerfed). 3 out of 4 TOP players used serpent disdain.

"top players will shrug it off" - Yea sure. 3 out of 4 TOP players used serpent disdain.

This is currently the strongest 1v1 set in the game, this is a fact, not opinion. With new mythic, it's even more OP.

Also besides all discussion, one extremly important question:

Why disable rele in PvP, but don't touch disdain in PvP? How is that fair for rele users?

How about we nerf spinners set, but we don't touch spriggans set?

Care to explain this logic? (this is rhetorical question)

I actually took part in that tournament (at least if youre talking about what i think you are). People used disdain in that tournament because it was a pureclass tournament, before DK rework and relequen was banned.
Which pretty much limits burst builds to templar and warden and because disdain is pretty much the only thing making pressure builds playable on a competitive level.
Also other than those 3 there were maybe 4 more people in the tournament running serpents disdain (one of those being me).
Something like Rallying Cry was a lot more popular.

The top players did in fact shrug it off since every single duel between any of the top 4 went to at least the second round where defensive blue CPs had to be removed, most went to round 3 where red CPs also had to be removed.
Meaning they were surviving those "op disdain builds" for at the very least 6 minutes without dying and usually far longer.

It is absolutely not a fact that disdain is the strongest 1v1 set in the game currently when most DKs (still easily the strongest class) are not running it atm.

Serpents Disdain is definitely not mid, its a strong set. Next patch its going to be the only pressure set that is strong enough to make those builds really able to compete, but its still not so strong that it makes them op (at least without Shattered Path which is the real issue). Nerfing it before pressure builds are actually made competitive in other ways is just a bad idea. If you feel the need to nerf anything nerf Shattered Paths Signet.

And the difference between Relequen and Disdain is that Disdain is good in most content other than organized group play while not being completely oppressive in anything. Relequen on the other hand is pretty much exclusively good if youre fighting 1 target so 1v1 or Xv1 and can be incredibly oppressive in those situations.
Nerfing relequen was definitely a good choice (and im saying that as a rele user).

xylena · 1:24PM

Jierdanit wrote: »

Serpents Disdain is definitely not mid, its a strong set. Next patch its going to be the only pressure set that is strong enough to make those builds really able to compete, but its still not so strong that it makes them op (at least without Shattered Path which is the real issue). Nerfing it before pressure builds are actually made competitive in other ways is just a bad idea. If you feel the need to nerf anything nerf Shattered Paths Signet.

Look I was exaggerating calling it mid but it's always been niche in its strength until SPS, there have been 0 metas where "everyone in Cyro/BGs is letting Serpents Disdain play the game for them" but I'm glad we agree on Shattered Path Signet needing adjustment.

And yes I think if build PvP is supposed to offer different build strats within a playstyle, then it is important to preserve Serpents as a pressure set/strat distinct from Dragons/Draugr (that doesn't demand you play DK). SPS can be made to buff pressure without breaking it.