Why isn't there a normal Night Market mode?

SilverBride · May 6

Blood_again wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think my question was clearly stated.

It was stated against the facts.
The fact is that the current mode is normal.
Considering this, the logical and necessary step will be adding a veteran mode.

Most of the replies appear to have understood what I was asking. My question is the topic of this thread, not how I asked it.

Your question misses the fact of the existing mode.
Now this fact is open and clear.
Do you ignore the fact that the current mode of the Night Market is normal?

We need to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Heronisan · May 6

Because normal mode where people could get all the rewards running around in easy mode completely solo, would make the entire point of this event pointless, which is teamwork.

And making it hard enough so people almost have to group up makes shure said teamwork happens.

This also, for the first time, creates a dangerous zone, which is very common in mmo's, where u are all in the same difficulty, so u team up because u are all stuck with the same challenging boss i front of you.

This is how overland difficulty should have been treated aswell instead of a slider which will just cause more separation

Challenges bring people together,except for a minority of solo players, who refuses to interact with the mmo part in a mmo game. Its why many of us are here. Zos finally threw us a bone.

Blood_again · May 6

Just to remind you that the answer was given to OP on the first page.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Because the Night Market IS "Normal Mode". It is balanced around the same difficulty as a normal trial. You can PUG it, just like a normal trial. If it were balanced like a Vet Trial, you would not be able to do so.

What you're asking is why there's no solo Night Market, and the answer is the same reason there are no Solo Trials; because it's group content.

Katheriah wrote: »

It is normal.

Blood_again · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think my question was clearly stated.

It was stated against the facts.
The fact is that the current mode is normal.
Considering this, the logical and necessary step will be adding a veteran mode.

Most of the replies appear to have understood what I was asking. My question is the topic of this thread, not how I asked it.

Your question misses the fact of the existing mode.
Now this fact is open and clear.
Do you ignore the fact that the current mode of the Night Market is normal?

We need to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

We can disagree about our opinions, sure thing.

My question is about the facts. You can accept the proved fact, prove the opposite fact, or just ignore the fact.
A fact is not an opinion to just disagree with.
And the proved fact is that the current mode of the Night Market is normal

SilverBride · May 6

Heronisan wrote: »

Because normal mode where people could get all the rewards running around in easy mode completely solo, would make the entire point of this event pointless, which is teamwork.

And making it hard enough so people almost have to group up makes shure said teamwork happens.

I don't think there should be an easy completely solo mode. I think there should be modes comparable to the normal and veteran modes that have always been present in dungeons and trials.

Heronisan wrote: »

This also, for the first time, creates a dangerous zone, which is very common in mmo's, where u are all in the same difficulty, so u team up because u are all stuck with the same challenging boss i front of you.

This isn't the first time this game created a dangerous zone. Craglorn was originally released as an adventure zone and was very difficult and required grouping for everything. But players didn't like it and the difficulty was turned way down.

Heronisan wrote: »

This is how overland difficulty should have been treated aswell instead of a slider which will just cause more separation

Overland difficulty isn't using a slider. It has set difficulty levels for the player to choose from. These affect the individual player, not the enemies, so there is no separation.

Heronisan wrote: »

Challenges bring people together,except for a minority of solo players, who refuses to interact with the mmo part in a mmo game. Its why many of us are here. Zos finally threw us a bone.

All MMO means that multiple players are in the game world at the same time. There are many ways players interact with each other. Grouping is one way but not the only way.

It's great they put a difficult zone in the game for players that enjoy that. But if there was a less difficult mode too it would encourage more players to group up and give it a try.

AScarlato · May 6

Last night I was helping a PUG clear one of the NM Dungeon bosses. It was the spider one that requires an add to be burned down or someone is ensnared and dies. I volunteered as healer to be ensnared.

The DPS were casuals and had lower DPS. They wanted to give up after quite a few wipes, saying - and I'm not making this up for this thread, "I wish there was a normal mode!" and later "if you want to get a better DPS I can leave."

I encouraged them not to give up, and our strategy continued that I would be ensnared, die because they couldn't burn the add, and then they could res me. We slow burned the boss and they focused on all the adds first. When we finally won, the DPS said "That was fun, I'm glad I stayed."

I think experiences like this can be very encouraging for people to try new things and I'm one of those who am glad they didn't have a bowl-over mode. I definitely went out of my comfort zone for ESO and am now proudly displaying my 3 dungeon busts and trial bust in my home.

thedocbwarren · May 6

I imagine solo players might not be upset if there were content (story) to play vs tasks, fetching, etc. Since there isn't any story content yet and we don't have a new single-player game in ES yet, this is all we can play right now (unless you have a backlog.)

Athory · May 6

@SilverBride

Some players simply don’t understand why normal mode is the only way some people can actually have fun in ESO.
Some don’t like it and don’t even want to allow others to enjoy normal mode.
Some just hate normal mode for the sake of hating it.
Others just want to watch the world burn, not because normal mode makes the game worse for them, but because it makes the game better for others, and that’s exactly why they hate it. (That’s why they gatekeep players who use Build X.)

And of course… it’s not just players who dislike normal mode now. Players have every right to hate everything related to normal mode. But ZoS?! How could they even forget\ignore why normal mode exists and "force" them to play hardcore or not play at all?!?!

SilverBride · May 6

Luckily I do have a backlog for a few of my characters and recently created my first Warden (and first male character) and am enjoying developing him. I'd like to feel comfortable trying this new content, but I still bear the scars of early Craglorn and just can't do it. Not with it in it's current state.

AScarlato · May 6

Athory wrote: »

@SilverBride
Some players simply don’t understand why normal mode is the only way some people can actually have fun in ESO.

Some don’t like it and don’t even want to allow others to enjoy normal mode.

Some just hate normal mode for the sake of hating it.

Others just want to watch the world burn, not because normal mode makes the game worse for them, but because it makes the game better for others, and that’s exactly why they hate it. (That’s why they gatekeep players who use Build X.)

And of course… it’s not just players who dislike normal mode now. Players have every right to hate everything related to normal mode. But ZoS?! How could they even forget\ignore why normal mode exists?!

I'm not really going to respond to your conjecture about players, but I'm glad the devs made the design decision in the way they did. If they had a mode where nearly everyone could solo - which is what many have been asking for when wanting a "normal mode", a lot of the cooperative spirit and the sense of overcoming challenges that have made this one of the most memorable events in ESO that I've experienced would have been lost.

twisttop138 · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

@SilverBride
Some players simply don’t understand why normal mode is the only way some people can actually have fun in ESO.

Some don’t like it and don’t even want to allow others to enjoy normal mode.

Some just hate normal mode for the sake of hating it.

Others just want to watch the world burn, not because normal mode makes the game worse for them, but because it makes the game better for others, and that’s exactly why they hate it. (That’s why they gatekeep players who use Build X.)

And of course… it’s not just players who dislike normal mode now. Players have every right to hate everything related to normal mode. But ZoS?! How could they even forget\ignore why normal mode exists?!

I'm not really going to respond to your conjecture about players, but I'm glad the devs made the design decision in the way they did. If they had a mode where nearly everyone could solo - which is what many have been asking for when wanting a "normal mode", a lot of the cooperative spirit and the sense of overcoming challenges that have made this one of the most memorable events in ESO that I've experienced would have been lost.

I still wouldn't mind a "normal" mode or whatever, so long as it didn't reward keys and probably splinters. That way people could try it out, see the area, fight some stuff.

SilverBride · May 6

Athory wrote: »

@SilverBride
Some players simply don’t understand why normal mode is the only way some people can actually have fun in ESO.

Some don’t like it and don’t even want to allow others to enjoy normal mode.

Some just hate normal mode for the sake of hating it.

Others just want to watch the world burn, not because normal mode makes the game worse for them, but because it makes the game better for others, and that’s exactly why they hate it. (That’s why they gatekeep players who use Build X.)

And of course… it’s not just players who dislike normal mode now. Players have every right to hate everything related to normal mode. But ZoS?! How could they even forget\ignore why normal mode exists?!

I agree with a lot of your observations and just don't understand why there is such a pushback against making a less intense Night Market mode that would make it accessible and enjoyable for the average player. How does this hurt anyone else?

Psyphiman · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

@SilverBride
Some players simply don’t understand why normal mode is the only way some people can actually have fun in ESO.

Some don’t like it and don’t even want to allow others to enjoy normal mode.

Some just hate normal mode for the sake of hating it.

Others just want to watch the world burn, not because normal mode makes the game worse for them, but because it makes the game better for others, and that’s exactly why they hate it. (That’s why they gatekeep players who use Build X.)

And of course… it’s not just players who dislike normal mode now. Players have every right to hate everything related to normal mode. But ZoS?! How could they even forget\ignore why normal mode exists?!

I agree with a lot of your observations and just don't understand why there is such a pushback against making a less intense Night Market mode that would make it accessible and enjoyable for the average player. How does this hurt anyone else?

We just think it is accessible for the average player. Because it really is. I am not a great player. I died when I first went in. Now I have unlocked two relics. In my opinion, let players make adjustments rather than ZOS needlessly watering down the event. No need for solo-friendly in a group event, anymore than PVE in a PVP event. That’s my attempt to explain why I am averse to ZOS listening to complaints I think are invalid.

SilverBride · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

I'm not really going to respond to your conjecture about players, but I'm glad the devs made the design decision in the way they did. If they had a mode where nearly everyone could solo - which is what many have been asking for when wanting a "normal mode", a lot of the cooperative spirit and the sense of overcoming challenges that have made this one of the most memorable events in ESO that I've experienced would have been lost.

I'm not asking for Fungal Grotto difficulty. I'd like the dungeons and trial to be group experiences, but not repeated frustration and failure.

I think it's great that you had a memorable experience and don't think the current mode should be changed at all. But what is rewarding to some is torture to others. Why not gives us a mode so we can enjoy the new content, too?

AScarlato · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I'm not really going to respond to your conjecture about players, but I'm glad the devs made the design decision in the way they did. If they had a mode where nearly everyone could solo - which is what many have been asking for when wanting a "normal mode", a lot of the cooperative spirit and the sense of overcoming challenges that have made this one of the most memorable events in ESO that I've experienced would have been lost.

I'm not asking for Fungal Grotto difficulty. I'd like the dungeons and trial to be group experiences, but not repeated frustration and failure.

I think it's great that you had a memorable experience and don't think the current mode should be changed at all. But what is rewarding to some is torture to others. Why not gives us a mode so we can enjoy the new content, too?

But you are just one person, and that's probably too hard for the many "play my way - solo only" requests we've seen. Whose voice are they to listen to for these requests?

I think they should stick to their instincts here.

Nilandia · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

Last night I was helping a PUG clear one of the NM Dungeon bosses. It was the spider one that requires an add to be burned down or someone is ensnared and dies. I volunteered as healer to be ensnared.

The DPS were casuals and had lower DPS. They wanted to give up after quite a few wipes, saying - and I'm not making this up for this thread, "I wish there was a normal mode!" and later "if you want to get a better DPS I can leave."

I encouraged them not to give up, and our strategy continued that I would be ensnared, die because they couldn't burn the add, and then they could res me. We slow burned the boss and they focused on all the adds first. When we finally won, the DPS said "That was fun, I'm glad I stayed."

I think experiences like this can be very encouraging for people to try new things and I'm one of those who am glad they didn't have a bowl-over mode. I definitely went out of my comfort zone for ESO and am now proudly displaying my 3 dungeon busts and trial bust in my home.

I just wanted to say that I've been thoroughly enjoying reading your posts. It's been wonderful reading how you gave something new a try and ended up having a lot of fun.

AScarlato · May 6

Nilandia wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Last night I was helping a PUG clear one of the NM Dungeon bosses. It was the spider one that requires an add to be burned down or someone is ensnared and dies. I volunteered as healer to be ensnared.

The DPS were casuals and had lower DPS. They wanted to give up after quite a few wipes, saying - and I'm not making this up for this thread, "I wish there was a normal mode!" and later "if you want to get a better DPS I can leave."

I encouraged them not to give up, and our strategy continued that I would be ensnared, die because they couldn't burn the add, and then they could res me. We slow burned the boss and they focused on all the adds first. When we finally won, the DPS said "That was fun, I'm glad I stayed."

I think experiences like this can be very encouraging for people to try new things and I'm one of those who am glad they didn't have a bowl-over mode. I definitely went out of my comfort zone for ESO and am now proudly displaying my 3 dungeon busts and trial bust in my home.

I just wanted to say that I've been thoroughly enjoying reading your posts. It's been wonderful reading how you gave something new a try and ended up having a lot of fun.

Thank you, and to be honest every time I meet someone who gets that rush of accomplishment that hasn't once tried a vet dungeon in NM, it makes me smile as well. I definitely feel some connection to those people

SilverBride · May 6

Psyphiman wrote: »

We just think it is accessible for the average player. Because it really is. I am not a great player. I died when I first went in. Now I have unlocked two relics. In my opinion, let players make adjustments rather than ZOS needlessly watering down the event. No need for solo-friendly in a group event, anymore than PVE in a PVP event. That’s my attempt to explain why I am averse to ZOS listening to complaints I think are invalid.

"We think" "it really is" " in my opinion" and "complaints are all invalid" are personal opinions, not facts. Many of us hold opposite opinions.

Also, I have said that I am not asking for a solo mode. (Even though ZOS said it could be soloable.). I just want a mode on par with other normal dungeon and trials so the average player can enjoy it, too.

And once again I will ask, how would it hurt anyone else if a mode was created that would allow a lot more players to enjoy the experience?

SilverBride · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not asking for Fungal Grotto difficulty. I'd like the dungeons and trial to be group experiences, but not repeated frustration and failure.

I think it's great that you had a memorable experience and don't think the current mode should be changed at all. But what is rewarding to some is torture to others. Why not gives us a mode so we can enjoy the new content, too?

But you are just one person, and that's probably too hard for the many "play my way - solo only" requests we've seen. Whose voice are they to listen to for these requests?

I think they should stick to their instincts here.

The many "play my way - solo only" players can start their own threads and ask for what they want. But that isn't what I'm asking for in this thread.

AScarlato · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

We just think it is accessible for the average player. Because it really is. I am not a great player. I died when I first went in. Now I have unlocked two relics. In my opinion, let players make adjustments rather than ZOS needlessly watering down the event. No need for solo-friendly in a group event, anymore than PVE in a PVP event. That’s my attempt to explain why I am averse to ZOS listening to complaints I think are invalid.

"We think" "it really is" " in my opinion" and "complaints are all invalid" are personal opinions, not facts. Many of us hold opposite opinions.

Also, I have said that I am not asking for a solo mode. (Even though ZOS said it could be soloable.). I just want a mode on par with other normal dungeon and trials so the average player can enjoy it, too.

And once again I will ask, how did it hurt anyone else if a mode was created that would allow a lot more players to enjoy the experience?

To be honest, most players would funnel into the difficulty of least resistance, which in this case would be this "normal" mode that is soloable, or as easy as most content in this game.

It would fail to truly provide challenge since let's be honest, 12+ people doing "normal" bosses would probably look like what world bosses do now.

It would not encourage players to get out of their comfort zone and face new challenges. It would not encourage people to band together like the current version does.

While someone above mentioned not providing certain rewards, we know the next complaint would be for also getting those rewards.

Finally, a lot of players are trying this content and finding that it truly is accessible. Someone said they are levelling a "Fresh out of the box" character and doing just fine. Also you stated in the past you have done trials, so I'm sure you could handle this too. I can, and I haven't done any trials or even any hard content in ESO.

spartaxoxo · May 6

This is a zone. It should not have separate instances because then people who need help wouldn't get it because everyone would solo it and leave the ones who need help without aide. It's the same reason that I was opposed to overland difficulty coming as separate instances. Zone content requires large amounts of people to work properly. Dead zones don't work. This is the one of the most popular event the game has ever seen because cooperation already puts it at the level of a vet base game/early dlc level for the most part. The only exception is the calamties/skirmishes, which are trial level. The brazen and argent bosses are literally just those bosses scaled up in HP like the incineration beetles and murklight.

Mechanically they are mostly not a big deal and only become one if you're trying to solo it. The whole thing is a matter of build and a lot of people just want to take glass cannons in there without groups because they either aren't used to grouping or mostly only run with organized groups. So they aren't used to having to build for self sustain.

Dying left and right shows that the player either isn't built for soloing the content and probably isn't running with a group either.

It's about on par with Vet Cradle of Shadows, and actually several of the bosses in the skittering district are just Cradle of Shadows bosses or reusing the mechs of that dungeon.

Bguk · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

We just think it is accessible for the average player. Because it really is. I am not a great player. I died when I first went in. Now I have unlocked two relics. In my opinion, let players make adjustments rather than ZOS needlessly watering down the event. No need for solo-friendly in a group event, anymore than PVE in a PVP event. That’s my attempt to explain why I am averse to ZOS listening to complaints I think are invalid.

"We think" "it really is" " in my opinion" and "complaints are all invalid" are personal opinions, not facts. Many of us hold opposite opinions.

Also, I have said that I am not asking for a solo mode. (Even though ZOS said it could be soloable.). I just want a mode on par with other normal dungeon and trials so the average player can enjoy it, too.

And once again I will ask, how did it hurt anyone else if a mode was created that would allow a lot more players to enjoy the experience?

Your posts are a broken record. I answered you, but once again you ask,

I was merely replying to your post quoting me. And I still haven't received an answer as to how it would hurt anyone else if a mode was created that would allow a lot more players to enjoy the experience.

On the first page of this thread, I offered a reason why. I didn't flesh it out because to me it seems obvious. Psyphiman explained it much better than I could have.

FlopsyPrince · May 6

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Group Finder. Guilds. Even messaging in Zone chat will help.

These are the ways you can participate in the Night Market.

Not at some playtimes. And pickup groups don't always focus well.

FlopsyPrince · May 6

Wildberryjack wrote: »

They did claim the night market would be soloable, but it would be hard to do. Ok that's fine but the truth is it is NOT soloable in any way whatsoever. And if you can't find a group you have to just forget it.

A few have posted that they could solo it. That will never be some like me though, which is supposedly the point. Worthless to go there if no groups are listed in the Find Group area.

SilverBride · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

It would not encourage players to get out of their comfort zone and face new challenges.

I am going to focus on this one part of your post because it really bothers me every time I have seen it given as a reason as to why the average player can't have comparable content they enjoy, too.

WHY do players need to be encouraged to be anything other than who they are? WHY do they have to strive to want what others want? WHY can't they enjoy their comfort zone? WHY can't they face new challenges in a less intense manner? WHY do they need to conform to what others like? And WHY do they need to like it, too?

Without getting into my personal life I will say that I worked many years in a very intense and challenging career and when I come here I come to relax and have fun, and not add more stress to myself.

AScarlato · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

It would not encourage players to get out of their comfort zone and face new challenges.

I am going to focus on this one part of your post because it really bothers me every time I have seen it given as a reason as to why the average player can't have comparable content they enjoy, too.

WHY do players need to be encouraged to be anything other than who they are? WHY do they have to strive to want what others want? WHY can't they enjoy their comfort zone? WHY can't they face new challenges in a less intense manner? WHY do they need to conform to what others like? And WHY do they need to like it, too?

Without getting into my personal life I will say that I worked many years in a very intense and challenging career and when I come here I come to relax and have fun, and not add more stress to myself.

They can continue to play how they like and be who they are....in the rest of the game. Not every piece of content is going to be for everyone. Especially if they have very specific and personal reasons for not wanting to do something that content can't possibly be designed around.

I'm still confused as to your investment in this, as you stated you can complete trials and also I believe stated you will not even be trying to participate in grouping in Night Market. Seems to be a lot of posts without even really experiencing it for yourself, and you have a lot of "casuals" telling you - who did take the time to personally experience NM - it's very accessible when joined with others.

Psyphiman · May 6

I agree you don’t need to conform, but it seems a bit demanding to expect the world (or the game) to conform to you.

Howevver, I do think it is good for the playerbase as a whole to get out of their comfort zone. It will help the game grow. But individuals are more than welcome to carry on their own business. More power to you.

SilverBride · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

They can continue to play how they like and be who they are....in the rest of the game. Not every piece of content is going to be for everyone.

I'm still confused as to your investment in this, as you stated you can complete trials and also I believe stated you will not even be trying to participate in grouping in Night Market. Seems to be a lot of posts without even really experiencing it for yourself, and you have a lot of "casuals" telling you - who did take the time to personally experience NM - it's very accessible when joined with others.

My investment is that I'd like to be able to experience the content, but things I've read and stories I've heard from others push me away. I enjoy group content. I've done every base game dungeon in the game on both normal and veteran, and every DLC dungeon on normal and some on veteran, and every trial on normal but have yet to try a veteran one. But the Night Market just reminds me too much of early Craglorn and that experience pushed me to quit the game for a couple of years.

[Edited to correct]

AScarlato · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

They can continue to play how they like and be who they are....in the rest of the game. Not every piece of content is going to be for everyone.

I'm still confused as to your investment in this, as you stated you can complete trials and also I believe stated you will not even be trying to participate in grouping in Night Market. Seems to be a lot of posts without even really experiencing it for yourself, and you have a lot of "casuals" telling you - who did take the time to personally experience NM - it's very accessible when joined with others.

My investment is that I'd like to be able to experience the content, but things I've read and stories I've heard from others push me away. I enjoy group content. I've done every dungeon in the game on both normal and veteran (except I still need the last two dungeons on veteran), and every trial on normal but have yet to try a veteran one. But the Night Market just reminds me too much of early Craglorn and that experience pushed me to quit the game for a couple of years.

Maybe instead of reading stories and drawing conclusions you should go out and try it yourself. I'm almost certain that this is far easier than the trials and vet dungeons you finished.

Silverbride, it saddens me that a player that clearly has the skills to succeed is afraid to even try. If the very casual DPS in my story above could overcome their anxiety and pull off a win, I am certain you could too given all you were already able to finish.

If what is preventing you from experiencing this firsthand before making a lot of requests, is a very personal trigger from your Craglorn experience, I'm sure the devs can't design everything around this very personal emotional reaction to something that happened years ago and that probably isn't shared at this level by most people.

SilverBride · May 6

AScarlato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

My investment is that I'd like to be able to experience the content, but things I've read and stories I've heard from others push me away. I enjoy group content. I've done every dungeon in the game on both normal and veteran (except I still need the last two dungeons on veteran), and every trial on normal but have yet to try a veteran one. But the Night Market just reminds me too much of early Craglorn and that experience pushed me to quit the game for a couple of years.

Maybe instead of reading stories and drawing conclusions you should go out and try it yourself. I'm almost certain that this is far easier than the trials and vet dungeons you finished.

If what is preventing you from experiencing this firsthand before making a lot of requests, is a very personal trigger from your Craglorn experience, I'm sure the devs can't design everything around this very personal emotional reaction to something that happened years ago and that probably isn't shared at this level by most people.

I think knowing how players can be negatively affected is important information to have. I agree that they aren't likely to design things around my own experience but that aside doesn't change the fact that the difficulty of the Night Market is what is keeping a lot of players away.

Right now I am not doing the content but it is very possible I may venture in at some point. But with things just as they are now I can't say when that would be likely to happen.