How to enjoy PvP in this game?

Usureki · April 26

My issue, but I'm not alone

I played ESO some years ago (1,6k hrs) with a support magplar and I kinda remember game is being a blast, but decided to go for a break to focus on other stuff nonetheless.

Now I'm back, trying out Arcanist, I really liked the Hermaeus Mora chapters, had quite fun times playing with my boyfriend and guildmates.. and everything was fine until I've hit lvl 50 and restarted PvP. Of course I was once again shocked by the difference between the difficulty levels of the braindead easy PvE (very looking forward to the challenge difficulty update, I think it could really save PvE) and the intense chaos that is ESO PvP.. but instead of joy, I've found frustration, rage and sadness. I'm playing since January, trying to get myself and my build together (really, I did a lot of reading and watched many videos) and I'm just still in awe how lame I perform, how disastrous this game become PvP-wise and what an awful experience I'm having;

subclassing enforces more narrow meta options instead of opening up competent opportunities, killing class identity, making more actually less
this results in damage and stat numbers all over the place making causal players deleted in a friction of a second without any chance to learn from the process
it's like some people are playing a totally different game with different rules. This is not a steep learning curve, these demigods survive 3v1 situations and come out on top, this is an unpleasant, unfair, toxic chaos and honestly disrespectful towards the effort of causal players
I and many players have zero clue how to close this power gap other than just copy paste the meta sweatlord sites and channels which is not my idea of having fun
the desync issue is even worse than I remember(and many people are even exploiting it) like I see my arcanist beam or tentacular dread hitting my target, yet they receive no damage at all

..and due to the indescribably garbage balance between affected parties and mashup of systematic game implementation issues, people are constantly ragequitting from BGs, sadly since some weeks including me. Though there are many exciting updates incoming, they just deepen my feeling that the DEVs just literally abandoned many parts of the game in favor of introducing 'inventions' such as Battle Passes, while 80% of the traits, enchantments, potions and sets are still laughably weaker than the 20%, making the former just information noise in an already complex and comprehensive system. Many stuff are broken since years (item sets, the queue, ranking etc.) without either acknowledgement or any promise to fix.Instead of fixing PvP balance they force players to do this Vengeance nonsense. This makes me feels like the DEVs are treating a huge part of the game as just a baggage they are forced to live with, instead of integral part of the game, deserving care and love. Which is quite sad, since many contents back then were way better than what ESO received in the past year. Numbers don't lie, check your playerbase count.

A promising idea would be reforming the classes but doing so one by one is also a terrible idea, since they just result in one class being imba at current patch, atm more than half of the PvP player base consist of OP WHIPWHIPWHIP DKs doing 17k+ dmg vs 36k armor and they are still overshadowed by the monstrosities resulted from the subclassing meta - and they tell us to wait, until your class is going to be reformed. If you are dragonknight or warden, you are lucky. If you are a nightblade or templar, well, then have patience, like a year until your class will get some flavor and love. Arcanist? Who cares, they are not even on any roadmap

Help me please, I still want to enjoy the game

So really, before I cancel my subscription and uninstall a game I'd like to give it one last chance with your help: otherwise than ignoring the garbage quality of PvP in this game, which I'd refuse because I think it should be an essential part of an MMO, what can one do? I'm in a PvP guild and the best advice I've received is to 'just play meta lol', but that kinda kills the image for this game for me, like why even bother having classes and whatnot is EVERYONE is supposed to follow the same sweaty directive? Also, how to solve the endless loop of 'seeing way to tanky unkillable characters who somehow still have enough damage to erase me -> trying to be more tanky and play more defensively -> deal zero damage, still getting killed but at least slower'? How is it that there are players seem constantly blocking or having shields up while still dealing crazy damage and moving crazy fast? Again, it's crazy, like they are playing a different game

Elder Scrolls has a beautiful world, stunning depth of lore and I want to be able to love ESO as well as it has loads of lovely content and still promising ideas, but my experience in the past 3 months just made me a more desperate and irritable man, I don't remember since when I've stopped ragequitting from games but ESO brought it back, making me think, that whatever ESO became since I've left, made ESO a thing not for me. Even parts of this forum post is way more toxic than I'd like, I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm just.. so desperate.

How to deal with this? What do you think?

RebornV3x · April 26

If you enjoined PVP some years ago that was probably in 2018. PVP now days is horrible it might be better to do something else like dungeons or trials or play another game entirely.

Vaqual · April 26

This is my process for enjoying a personalized PvP experience without being entirely non-competitive:

1. Outline what you want to play: Weapon, class & skill lines, general purpose - what feels fun to you?
2. Set priorities: Establish some rough thresholds for WD, Pen, HP, Mitigations, etc. that you would like to hit.
3. Compare sets that offer the best respective split and thematic fit. This can be time consuming if you are new to build crafting, but you will see that there are many decent options that are not too far behind the numerical meta.
4. Fill in free ability slots to cover for missing priorities with suitable options (Scribing and Subclassing helps a lot here, but also Skill styles can help to make something fit).
5. Balance your stats with CP, Glyphs, Mundus and Enchantments.

Instead of working off the densest set bonuses or the strongest synergies I prioritize thematic fit. Sometimes there is room for meta choices, sometimes there isn't. That doesn't mean that I do not min-max where possible and that I do not keep an eye on relevant stats, but for me focusing on the RP aspect has kept the game enjoyable. After you have the concept you will need to establish a gameplay loop and test your setup. That process can look very different, depending on the purpose of the build. Here is an example for a solo build:

1. Make sure you have enough kill potential. Test your burst combo on the dummy (many choose Vampire Thrall) and see if you can pull it off smoothly under ideal conditions. If you play heavy pressure, make sure to have forgiving uptimes and easily applicable effects. Under real conditions you will face blocks, purges, dodges, LoS and other movement. Complex combos are much less forgiving and easier to counter.

2. Bring enough heal potential. Whatever incoming DPS you are expecting, bring enough heals to outmatch that. HoTs and purges are usually more resource efficient, but offer less maximum HPS than spamming burst heals and shields. Rule of thumb: Have a way to utilize your resources when necessary. Try not to die with unspent resources.

3. Stress-test your sustain. Do several back to back engagements and keep and eye on your resources. Can you pull off your offense while sustaining stun break, dodge, buffs and heals? Are you maybe running too much sustain? If so, try to convert that into effective stats. Running too little? Do not underestimate resource costs when it comes to setting up your bar.

4. Test it in PvP. Nothing can replace the real thing. Give yourself some time. Get adjusted to timers and keybinds. If you are not already experienced, do not judge a build before you have established muscle memory. Every second matters in high-end PvP and timing is often worth more than stats. Learn what you are lacking in specific match ups. Is it something you can incorporate? Or is there a mechanical way of outplaying the enemy? Knowing what is out there helps dramatically with your own performance. Try to see how hard combos of other players hit you. Do you have the capacity to survive those attacks under good conditions? Did you stay healed? Do you need more HP? Evaluating these questions is often easier in smaller engagements, so don't be shy to just seek out single opponents.

5. Accept defeat. Your build will not be the best on the market if you do not strictly prioritize performance. That is ok. You can still outplay players with better setups or even catch excellent players on the wrong foot. But be honest with yourself. Did you just die because of your own mistakes or because the enemy ran 15 % more crit damage? It is easy to blame gear, but if you want to own your victories you have to own your defeats. And if your build isn't so good, maybe you learned a few things that will help you to make the right changes.

6. Enjoy the challenge. Playing PvP in hard mode makes even small victories feel rewarding and mundane engagements feel thrilling. Don't worry so much about what others are thinking. And if you feel frustrated it is ok to take a breath and step back from it for a bit. Don't wait for the balancing to be "just right" to whip out your dream build. That day might never come. Just do it and try to have fun.

The bottomline is probably that it takes a bit of effort to have fun on suboptimal builds. But it is a rewarding play style, that can hold many hours of invested gameplay. Be it by offering goals during the build preparation or by actually having a varied PvP experience.

ceruulean · April 26

the desync issue is even worse than I remember(and many people are even exploiting it) like I see my arcanist beam or tentacular dread hitting my target, yet they receive no damage at all

Yeah, as you've noticed ESO has very lax physics, so aoe skills are disadvantaged. Single target skills snapshot on cast which is different from aoes which hit on the next tick so people can walk out of them. You need to build dots or bait ppl into walking into your aoe. You are better off with a dot build or using single target. This is an issue with templar jabs too, jabs is not strong enough for losing the opportunity to block cast and the fact that people can just walk away.

Block casting is honestly a huge problem and is counterintuitive but you have to do it to survive in ESO PvP. On your own, practice drills like hold block and cast each skill, then move on to block + skill > release block, then do forward/backward jump > block + skill (bypasses slow block movement speed) > release block on landing. Then develop the muscle memory to do it all in a fight. Then drill yourself dodge-roll canceling each skill that's instant and not a cast/channel. Then drill instant skill > barswap. Then drill skill > forward sprint to give yourself mobility. Now you see the disadvantage of cast/channel skills because you cannot perform defensive maneuvers with them, whereas the opponent can animation cancel and hide their telegraphs and output guaranteed damage.

LA weaving is also huge, it's 10% damage if you keep it up. Missing LAs over time makes a difference. The last advanced drill is LA > skill > bash which are all done within a 700-800 ms window. Bash weaving is not strictly necessary but it has advantages (hiding the animation, or draining stam of a blocking target with a cheap move)

Probably have to wait until perma Vengeance. It's a more balanced campaign, but there's still plenty of skill expression. I've lost in a 4v2 because there were 3 scared newbies who fell back and left me to die. Lots of people who don't know how to predict an ult dump and counter it. People who think taking over a resource and killing the overpowered NPC guards solo is impossible, but it's very possible with a damage loadout. Even with limited build options, at that point it's a build/skill issue.

Addons like CMX will help with analyzing opponents and learning from them, figuring out their highest damage sources and whether it's something you should address in your build or if the opponent's build is a natural counter.

xylena · April 26

I see you are skeptical towards Vengeance, I hated it at first, but they designed it to address exactly these type of issues, and it does succeed to a reasonable extent.

If not Vengeance, you're gonna have to either lower your expectations, or be willing to sweat, practice dueling, and run meta builds.

ADawg · April 27

ceruulean wrote: »

Probably have to wait until perma Vengeance.

Im unsubbing if that ever happens!

ADawg · April 27

xylena wrote: »

I see you are skeptical towards Vengeance, I hated it at first, but they designed it to address exactly these type of issues, and it does succeed to a reasonable extent.

If not Vengeance, you're gonna have to either lower your expectations, or be willing to sweat, practice dueling, and run meta builds.

No-Proc No-CP limited a lot and still allowed you to actually BUILD your character.

Vengeance = all of my characters are DEAD, GONE, POINTLESS

Theory crafting is one of my favorite aspects of this game. I make my own builds. I think of the idea and put it together. Vengeance means dumbing down a game to the lowest common denominator while ignoring blatant balancing issues.

Ill say it AGAIN... DECOUPLE DAMAGE FROM HEALING and boom PVP is fixed.

Healers need to heal and stack HEALING modifiers ie HEALING DONE, not stack damage and delete everything and self heal to the moon with 1 button press.

Taarente · April 27

I’ll try to give you something practical from how I approach Cyrodiil, because I recognise a lot of what you’re describing.

First thing—I don’t treat Cyrodiil as a place where I’m supposed to win fights against everyone I meet. That’s where a lot of the frustration comes from.

There are players in there who are:

better optimised
more experienced
or just built for 1vX

If you measure yourself against those constantly, it’s going to feel exactly like you described—like a different game.

What helped me was changing the question from:
“How do I beat these players?”
to:
“What do I actually want to do here today?”

For me, that usually means:

flip a few resources
help take or defend a keep
pick up some rewards
then leave

Once you frame it like that, the whole thing becomes much more manageable.

On the “unkillable players” point:
Don’t chase them. If someone shrugs off your damage and turns on you, just disengage. That’s not failure—that’s target selection. Cyrodiil isn’t built around fair fights, so you don’t have to take every one.

On builds:
You don’t need a perfect meta build to function. You do need enough defence to survive a burst.

Try to aim for:

solid resistances
some crit resistance
a reliable self-heal
get used to blocking under pressure

The goal isn’t to kill faster—it’s to not die instantly. Once you survive longer, the fights start to make more sense.

On the “I hit them but nothing happens” feeling:
Some of that is just ESO PvP, honestly. Desync and unclear feedback have always been part of it. You won’t always get a clean explanation for what happened.

What helped me was not trying to understand every single death, but instead watching patterns:

did I overcommit?
was I out of position?
did I chase too far?

That gives you something you can actually improve.

One thing that made a big difference for me:
Play the map, not just the fight.

fight near objectives or guards
avoid big chaotic pushes if you’re solo
don’t stand in the open if you don’t have to
if something looks messy, it probably is—go somewhere else

You’ll find the game feels very different when you do that.

And finally:
It’s completely fine to treat Cyrodiil as something you dip into, not something you live in all day.

Go in with a purpose, get what you want out of it, and leave. That alone removes a lot of the frustration loop.

I’m not saying the system is perfect—it isn’t—but you don’t have to solve all of PvP to start enjoying parts of it again.

xylena · April 27

ADawg wrote: »

No-Proc No-CP limited a lot and still allowed you to actually BUILD your character.

LMAO no it didn't the entire one build meta was Beekeeper hp regen tanks for 3mo.

MincMincMinc · April 27

xylena wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

No-Proc No-CP limited a lot and still allowed you to actually BUILD your character.

LMAO no it didn't the entire one build meta was Beekeeper hp regen tanks for 3mo.

Ehhh i mean if you are talking 1vX setups, sure people ran health recovery builds because it was the best survivability at that time. Most pugs and casual players all still ran a mix of sets in noproc.

IMO overall though I think zos has a better chance with developing vengeance than trying to push the boulder up the mountain that is greyhost pvp. PvE and PvP should have split a long time ago. Even just for the aspect of inventory auto swapping gear and skills to your pvp setup. Power creep has ballooned skills in GH to the point where most have multiple paragraphs and effects. Gear sets are at the point people are wearing 4+ proc sets that each do handfuls of effects and timers.

I would rather see vengeance get the remaining skill lines brought in. Then add morphs in a smart way like dizzy swing does less damage with a short cast time, wrecking blow does more damage with a long cast time. Simple morphs that do not balloon the game with random effects.....yet create hundreds of playstyle combinations. Another example: Streak stuns at the final location, Ball stuns at the starting location.

IMO its dumb that in GH pvp builds are nearly at the point where I have every possible major/minor that I could care for. If everyone has every major/minor buff......they serve no purpose other than to induce more lag. Zos could disable the major/minors and give you the stats by default skipping the whole lag issue.............Look at armor enchants on live, 99% of people have all tristats, SO why not just remove the whole armor enchant system calculation wise?

xylena · April 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Most pugs and casual players all still ran a mix of sets in noproc

They always do this, but if those choices are not competitively valid in a PvP game, why do they exist? To trick casuals into running worse builds so they do twice as bad? Vengeance correctly makes it hard for someone to accidentally run a "bad" or otherwise nonfunctional build.

olsborg · April 27

RebornV3x wrote: »

If you enjoined PVP some years ago that was probably in 2018. PVP now days is horrible it might be better to do something else like dungeons or trials or play another game entirely.

This, 100% agree. The pvp now is so metafocused, if you dont play meta youre out of luck. No more play as you want if you also want to be competetive. This procc and subclass meta is terribly boring.

MincMincMinc · April 27

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Most pugs and casual players all still ran a mix of sets in noproc

They always do this, but if those choices are not competitively valid in a PvP game, why do they exist? To trick casuals into running worse builds so they do twice as bad? Vengeance correctly makes it hard for someone to accidentally run a "bad" or otherwise nonfunctional build.

Theres always going to be the noob bait, but there is a certain point where they can give options that let people tailor without making it so obscenely complicated that noobs are running around only worth their light attacks.

Luneca · May 3

I'd recommend playing an actual PvP game for PvP.

I just fire coldfire because the balance is so bad in the game it's not worth dealing with.

Even the past patch was bearable before ZOS "reworked" DK.

Now you either are one or taking a skill line from it, or you will just sweat hard to beat them.

Three classes in the game are an absolute joke right now: templar, necro, and arcanist. Sorc is barely hanging on.

And the majority of PvP is DK, Warden, or variations of a one-shot build. So it's forcing you to build tanky.

But then the problem is that when you dom you lose way more than all the other classes on those three classes listed above: templar, necro, and arcanist. And that's exactly why you will rarely ever see those three classes in BG, in Cyro, and definitely not IC.

Then we have to talk about mobility on all 3 of those classes and how there's a massive lack of any good mobility skills. And yet, at the same time, ZOS buffed DK wings [Fleetstep Wings] : 50% damage reduction, major expedition, snare immunity, and it also has a knockback. A knockback? The worst CC in the game besides charm, and desyncs just as often. Wings was already powerful pre-DK changes with the damage reduction and small shield would have been better to add than a CC and snare immunity

I honestly don't know what to say, except that changes like that show that PvP is not going to be headed in any seriously balanced direction and it's a waste of time to believe otherwise.

Nebbles · May 3

My honest answer on how to enjoy it? You don't.

Been playing on and off since release. Took longer and longer breaks as the PvP went downhill. Only reason I popped back now was to try out Vengeance again.

ESO PvP is a laughably unbalanced and gate kept by sweats. Live Cyro is a cluster of stupid builds, lag, and ballgroups whose only aim is to farm randoms. It's a cesspit. It's been a disaster for a few years and then subclassing made it even worse.

Battlegrounds are nearly as unbalanced and also ruined when they got rid of 3 teams and reduced it to two. I saw an event that had 3 teams, but dunno if they bringing it back.

Vengence has potential and is the last hope I have, but it has its issues so I'm not hedging my bets. It's a shame. I used to absolutely love Cyro and sieges, but it's just been destroyed over the years from lack of attention and what feels like zero care about balance.

Usureki · May 4

Thanks for the tips and comments. I tried to learn and integrate your feedbacks into my gameplay, and though I might perceive a slight improvement on my end, the topic at hand, the quality of ESO as a game with PvP being a core part is still a disaster. If others read this, maybe it helps: I've tried to adapt and make myself more tanky; added resto to backbar instead of ice staff so getting more HOTs, focusing more on CCs (during pvp assuming one can't deal damage w/o stun helps, regardless of it being untrue) and in general aiming for better positioning helped me quite a lot. Nevertheless, I still have zero chance against DKs and meta subclassers. I still think ESO BGs are garbage, I still feel abandoned by ZOS and just question myself why am I still playing this game if it is so bad... but other than that, some reaction for y'all;

If you enjoined PVP some years ago that was probably in 2018. PVP now days is horrible it might be better to do something else like dungeons or trials or play another game entirely.

I did not play in 2018, I think I played starting from 2021 to around 2023. Things were not so bad back then, but it seems that somehow worsening the game is the tendency in some aspects.

I see you are skeptical towards Vengeance, I hated it at first, but they designed it to address exactly these type of issues, and it does succeed to a reasonable extent.

Unfortunately I don't think that Vengeance in its current form is a good solution for our problems, as I believe it makes little sense to totally separate PvE and PvP skill lines just for the sole reason that the DEVs are either not willing or unable to balance things. However, if they aim to generalize Vengeance to the main game as well, it might open some perspectives, as actual character building would remain part of the game - having the same character using a totally different version of the skills available in other part of the game would be very confusing, bizarre and nonsense.

ZOS buffed DK wings [Fleetstep Wings] : 50% damage reduction, major expedition, snare immunity, and it also has a knockback.

Honestly I don't really understand how ZOS manages to roll out so terribly unbalanced updates considering they have a dedicated server for pre-testing content where they should be able to receive feedbacks - like with U49, I cannot imagine a scenario where nobody told them that e.g. 50% ranged damage reduction for a class that is unbeatable in melee is a sane idea, and I'm also unable to comprehend who the hell managed to think that reforming one specific class only and leaving others in the dirt would be a good idea. I know this wording is cruel, but so is leaving us, the players with this half baked hell that is ESO PvP.

I'd recommend playing an actual PvP game for PvP.

Maybe my taste is way too specific, but I don't really like PvP only game. I like PvP to stand for something, having effect on gameplay, contributing to a shared story. Albion online could be nice, but its a mobile game compared to my standards.

My honest answer on how to enjoy it? You don't.

I'm also really interested in the class mastery idea, but based on current info I don't think it will be enough to counter the power creep we face. One can hope though, as PvP is an essential part of any MMO.

ceruulean · May 4

I'm just gonna say that pvp is not enjoyable in the current patch and won't be for a while. Vengeance is the closest thing you'll have to balance. Even in the simplified environment, there is a huge skill gap between people who light attack and cast occasional skills, and aggressive light attack weavers who pump out 10x more damage. And the failure of ZOS to implement basic fighting principles: when you attack and are on the offense, you should be vulnerable to getting punished yourself. However, ESO allows you to blockcast instant skills so you literally don't have a weakness unless you stam out or you're playing jabplar or arcanist. Trying to whittle down stamina becomes a main goal in ESO pvp. Oh and how animation canceling a skill does not cancel the damage, infact barswap can make a skill fire quicker, lol..

Now take this unintuitive combat nonsense and combine it with powercreep over the years and ESO pvp is an exercise in frustration. It's very spammy. You still need to do things like play mind tricks with the opponent, and tire out their resources, and take advantage of mistakes, but it's so easy for equal opponents to end up in a stalemate duel because everyone can heal and blockcast and never get punished. Whether that's good or bad, it's up to you.

Just to give you an example, it's difficult to kill DKs on my templar in Vengeance. Dks have basically infinite stam and the only way to kill them is to let my HP drop low enough, baiting them into bloodthirst and not healing themselves, then execute them faster with bash canceling Radiant Destruction (which only works at 20% so a DK would have to make a fatal mistake to get that low). Meanwhile the DK can press skills 1-5 and relax and be comfy in their self heals and easy dot damage, or use 2H execute at 30%. Plar sustain is so bad that slotting the 2H execute might make you run out of stam and you need mag skills to keep a good stam pool. A DK will get frustrated faster than their resources run out.

In a 1v1 i'd say the 2 classes are equal at the mid-high level. For newbies DK is easier to pilot but has less burst than plar, and plar has ranged damage and unblockable CC which means you can kite and avoid melee damage while still pressuring the opponent, or get lucky laggy CC and kill someone with ranged execute. In an outnumbered situation, DK with their sustain and infinite blockcasting are much better than templar regardless. However, DK cannot play ranged at all and that's the only thing that's keeping the class from being dominant in everything. It's very commonly played in Vengeance because it's easy, just like NB.

The bad thing about Venegance is that removing sets and passives will remove interactions and combos like Maarselok heavy attack. However I think it's better if devs add mechanics and combos to the classes and weapon skill lines themselves, to encourage different moves.

Also, separate balancing and disabling certain skills in PvP is fairly standard for MMOs. ESO is actually the odd game out for not balancing the skills separately from PvE, and the PvP player base is paying the price.

ADawg · May 5

xylena wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

No-Proc No-CP limited a lot and still allowed you to actually BUILD your character.

LMAO no it didn't the entire one build meta was Beekeeper hp regen tanks for 3mo.

And then they halved Health recovery in PVP...prob solved.

ADawg · May 5

ceruulean wrote: »

The bad thing about Venegance is

EVERYTHING

Luneca · May 5

ceruulean wrote: »

Also, separate balancing and disabling certain skills in PvP is fairly standard for MMOs. ESO is actually the odd game out for not balancing the skills separately from PvE, and the PvP player base is paying the price.

People keep saying this, but I wonder why? It's bizarre to always find people say this in the game when things that are broken in PvP are often also just as broken in PvE. In fact, PvE is where I go test my PvP builds and see whether or not I can solo a vet trial boss with it, see how long I last, and test sustain.

The manifestation might differ, but that's only because PvP can prioritize ALL builds that over perform, and PvE can only prioritize damage -- because damage is all that matters in PvE in the end for most content!

And we have plenty of examples that demonstrate the PvE-PvP connection and poor balancing: that new mythic on the PTS everyone is complaining about, monomyth, oakensoul on release (technically still now on live), plague break, etc.

In fact, most of the sets nerfed didn't get nerfed because they were strong in PvP and broken, they got nerfed because people started finding a way to use them in PvE. This even applies to skills and overall damage too.

Wasn't damage reduction stacking allowed past 103% recently until ZOS saw a video of someone cheesing a trial with it and taking 0 damage? I was only a reader of the forums at the time, but I know the build existed because of unmentionable reasons.

It's really strange how quickly that tidbit is forgotten.That things that perform too well in PvP are often also problematic in PvE.

And it's even more strange that people believe that separate balancing will help when Vengeance exists, still has poor balance, and pretty much achieves nothing vs. live except more players and people pretending that isn't case.