empower nerf

Sercisil · April 23

Heavy attack builds are already weak. My Oakensoull build has near 90k dps and Rakkhat one has 120k, but it has much more difficult rotation than a beam build with the same DPS range.

So, standart requirement for vet trials is 90k dps. And with the next patch simple Oakensoul version of my heavy attack buiild will be below the treshhold. The Rackhat build probably not, but it is already not worth to use.

I tested only Oakensoul version:

Race: Dunmer

All points to magic

Mundus: Thief

Food: Witchmother's Potent Brew

Class: Warden, only use Animal Companions skilline

Subclassing skilllines: Asassination and Aediric Spear (for passives)

Active skills:

Screaming Cliff Racer, Deep Fissure, Wild Guardian form Animal Companions
Concealed Weapon (for speed boost) and Merciless Resolve from Assassination
Banner from scribing (Magic damage + Cavalier's charge + Heroism)

Blue CP:
Weapons expert (of course), Exploiter (cliffracer sets targets of ballance), Master-at-Arms (direct damage), Fighting Finess (more crit damage)

Red CP:

Boundless Vitality, Fortified, Slippery, Celerity

Sets:

Oakensoul Ring (weapon damage enchantment)

Slimecraw Epaulets (divine, magic enchantment)

Sergeant's Mail: body (divine, magic enchantment), lightning staff (precise, weapon damage enchantment), necklace (infused, weapon damage enchantment), ring (bloodthirsty, weapon damage enchantment)

Highland Sentinel (crafted set, all divine with magic enchantment): medium legs, light head, hands, sash, feets

Live server 91k dps:

PTS: 84k dps:

So, this type of builds already has low damage, even with subclassing and scribing. Currently it is not even close to the meta. Why have you decided to nerf already weak builds? You continue to add powerfull channeled skills, both updated "classes" (Dragonknight and Werewolf) have them. And such playstyle requires almost the same reaction/skill level as heavy attack builds, but you boost beam-like builds and nerf heavy attacks. I honestly don't understand your intentions.

PeacefulAnarchy · April 23

Yeah it's a 20% nerf to HA on those parses. It's a bigger nerf on voidmantle builds, probably near 30% on the top ones.
There have been a number of posts about this and all we got as a response is a very noncommital post from kevin that they've seen the posts. I'm hoping there's an empower buff on Monday otherwise I don't expect them to do anything.

RaptorRodeoGod · April 23

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Yeah it's a 20% nerf to HA on those parses. It's a bigger nerf on voidmantle builds, probably near 30% on the top ones.
There have been a number of posts about this and all we got as a response is a very noncommital post from kevin that they've seen the posts. I'm hoping there's an empower buff on Monday otherwise I don't expect them to do anything.

Watch, they'll say they wanna push it to live to collect data, then never update it again like everything else

YandereGirlfriend · April 23

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Yeah it's a 20% nerf to HA on those parses. It's a bigger nerf on voidmantle builds, probably near 30% on the top ones.
There have been a number of posts about this and all we got as a response is a very noncommital post from kevin that they've seen the posts. I'm hoping there's an empower buff on Monday otherwise I don't expect them to do anything.

I very much expect to see Empower buffed whenever the first "real" adjustment patch on the PTS drops.

virtus753 · April 24

I’m not sure where this “standard” is set for requirements. It’s not that way in any of my guilds. One social guild I’m active in has 70k only for base game and easier DLC vets (e.g. AS+0/1). They ask 90k for the harder vet DLCs. And for about a year they haven’t even enforced any of those requirements but can still clear a vDSR with half the dps not reaching the 70k bar. This is a guild that also hosts tri progs with much higher expectations, because not all vet trials, modes, or achievements are created equal.

The Empower nerf can certainly be discussed in its own right, but player-set requirements for dps are up to each group or guild. They’re not a universal standard ZOS has to design for. They are the consequence of the design, the difficulty of the content and the availability of power, not the determiner of it.

SkaiFaith · April 24

Aaand that's another reason to restore Oakensoul and make it relevant again. Return it to its previous glory, Zos!

ESO_player123 · April 24

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Yeah it's a 20% nerf to HA on those parses. It's a bigger nerf on voidmantle builds, probably near 30% on the top ones.
There have been a number of posts about this and all we got as a response is a very noncommital post from kevin that they've seen the posts. I'm hoping there's an empower buff on Monday otherwise I don't expect them to do anything.

I very much expect to see Empower buffed whenever the first "real" adjustment patch on the PTS drops.

I would love to share your optimism, but I fully expect empower to hit live as is.

Orbital78 · April 24

ESO_player123 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Yeah it's a 20% nerf to HA on those parses. It's a bigger nerf on voidmantle builds, probably near 30% on the top ones.
There have been a number of posts about this and all we got as a response is a very noncommital post from kevin that they've seen the posts. I'm hoping there's an empower buff on Monday otherwise I don't expect them to do anything.

I very much expect to see Empower buffed whenever the first "real" adjustment patch on the PTS drops.

I would love to share your optimism, but I fully expect empower to hit live as is.

My faith in the combat balance team isn't high either. It seems like fun is not allowed, play how you want but not as a heavy attack build.

thepandalore · April 24

@ZOS_Kevin I'm finding a roughly 8% drop in heavy attack build output between u49 and u50 on a subclassed sorc in Deadly Strike + Sergeant's Mail, with clear best-in-slot biases with respect to subclass selection. I'm also finding a ~5% drop in heavy attack build output between u49 and u50 on a subclassed sorc in Perfected Null Arca + Sergeant's mail, with the same clear best in slot biases with respect to subclass selection. My u50 pure class heavy attack build does ~2% more damage than the same u50 character while subclassed, everything else being equal. That said, a minmaxed u50 pureclass heavy attack build outputs less damage overall than a minmaxed u49 heavy attack build by a significant margin.

Are these decreases to damage intentional? In other words, is the intention to significantly decrease heavy attack build output, and to further decrease subclassed output? Why not keep them in line with each other? Also, what exactly are the changes to Empower other than the coming increase from 70% to 100%? The patch notes don't give any indication aside from "interactivity" with other damage systems. Whatever these changes were, the result is lower damage across the board as of the end of week 2.

u49 Live Serg/DS multiclassed: DS/Serg baseline

u50 PTS Serg/DS multiclassed: ~8% lower than current live

u50 PTS Serg/DS one classed: ~2% higher than above multiclassed

u50 PTS Serg/Perf NA multiclassed: ~5% lower than current live on same build

LunaFlora · April 24

100% bonus to Empower instead of 70%! ♥
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691762/update-50-pts-week-2-summary#latest

Empower [Feedback]: Thanks to many of the discussions and breakdowns of popular use cases, we’re making some adjustments to the values for certain effects that saw a reduction in power after the combat calculation changes with Damage Done to Monsters. Most of these are not huge bumps in power that immediately make them as strong as they were in all cases (since the loss of power is still highly subjective to many factors) but should help them feel more competitive with other bonuses. Empower is the most notable increase, going from 70% to 100% - but will come with a stipulation that the damage bonus will no longer apply while the effect holder has Battle Spirit, to correct some of the extreme damage possible against players in PvPvE situations. We are also not increasing every bonus, namely Velothi, as its power offered is still quite dense even after the changes.

PeacefulAnarchy · April 24

I think 100% for empower is a baseline to at least keep it roughly where it is now. I think HA builds need more love in general including some combination of buffing empower more, buffing voidmantle, making HA take less time so you can get better rotations, increasing the duration on most empower buffs, increasing the base damage of HA, restoring trifocus or other things. Especially as other builds keep goung higher and higher, HA builds staying in place is not a great place to be.

But I'm glad they're at least doing something, and I know some of the things I mentioned wouldn't be in scope for this patch anyway.

Sercisil · April 27

It's still a nerf even for Oakensoul builds.

Cleared all active skills and class passives, because of Assasination nerf:

live, heavy attacks only, 50,4k dps

PTS, heavy attacks only, 45.2k dps

So, minus 11% dps for heavy attacks.

Empower should give at least 125% bonus not to be a nerf and 150% to be competitive with other playstyles of the same intensity.

Zeeejay · April 27

Rakkhat Voidmantle got hit harder by the Empower recalculation than Oakensoul, doing the same build on u49 and u50 it will be nerfed.

It would be great to see it iterated upon again or Rakkhat's Voidmantle's damage bonus doubled to 100% to balance out the re-calculation.

Either way, in the current state of PTS, a heavy attack build in update 49 will be nerfed in update 50.

Orbital78 · April 28

If they're going to make Empower no longer usable in IC, they might as well un-nerf the destro staff passives and give lightning staves back their original theme.

ESO_player123 · April 28

Orbital78 wrote: »

If they're going to make Empower no longer usable in IC, they might as well un-nerf the destro staff passives and give lightning staves back their original theme.

Yes, yes, please. IC was the reason they were nerfed in the first place, no?

Orbital78 · April 28

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

If they're going to make Empower no longer usable in IC, they might as well un-nerf the destro staff passives and give lightning staves back their original theme.

Yes, yes, please. IC was the reason they were nerfed in the first place, no?

Yup

Militan1404 · April 28

IC?

PeacefulAnarchy · April 28

Militan1404 wrote: »

IC?

Imperial city, where if you heavy attack mobs that someone else is melee attacking they get splash damage affected by empower.

Soarora · April 28

Orbital78 wrote: »

If they're going to make Empower no longer usable in IC, they might as well un-nerf the destro staff passives and give lightning staves back their original theme.

My exact thought when I read that empower doesn't work in imperial city anymore. "But people getting 1-shot!" was my only argument against lightning aoe on 1st and 2nd tick.

SkaiFaith · April 28

Orbital78 wrote: »

If they're going to make Empower no longer usable in IC, they might as well un-nerf the destro staff passives and give lightning staves back their original theme.

You were quicker than me on that, but glad someone already said it

Sadly, since we are already in week 3 I have not much hope for them to fix this in this PTS. But hopefully U51?

LunaFlora · May 4

is the 150% change better? it seems like a good change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692220/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-3

Zeeejay · May 4

Yes, 150% is much better than the 100%. This will buff the common Oakensoul setup from live a fair amount and help the existing Rakkhat builds do well!

Really commend ZOS for responding to feedback about making Empower multiplicative too, that context is always appreciated.

YandereGirlfriend · May 4

Rakkhat is still taking a random and uncompensated Gogiga nerf, however.

Very surprised to not see it buffed in the notes as well.

SkaiFaith · May 4

LunaFlora wrote: »

is the 150% change better? it seems like a good change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692220/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-3

Zeeejay wrote: »

Yes, 150% is much better than the 100%. This will buff the common Oakensoul setup from live a fair amount and help the existing Rakkhat builds do well!

Really commend ZOS for responding to feedback about making Empower multiplicative too, that context is always appreciated.

Thanks for the good news!

I still wonder if making tri-focus do splash damage with every tick would really be too much, considering we already have Beam and it seems we are going to have more skills like that (new DK), and it now doesn't work anymore in PvP... Surely would be helpful in content like Night Market - maybe worth considering for PTS week 5?

Zeeejay · May 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Rakkhat is still taking a random and uncompensated Gogiga nerf, however.

Very surprised to not see it buffed in the notes as well.

Not exactly a nerf. It's more that it's just not receiving as much of a buff.

Using SkinnyCheeks' calculator https://skinnycheeks.gg/simple-damage-calculator, if you account for the following buffs, here's how it plays out:

Empower, Minor/Major Slayer, Minor/Major Berserk, Weapons Expert, Other Damage CP = buffed 1%
Without Major Slayer and Major Berserk, Voidmantle is buffed 6% compared to live.
Non-Rakkhat heavy attack builds are buffed ~15% compared to live with Major Slayer/Berserk.
Without Major Slayer/Berserk, buffed ~23%.

One thing that is being missed: The empower change is not strictly a buff for Oakensoul users, but also a buff for Pale Order and/or Anthelmir users too.

Rakkhat's Voidmantle could use a slight buff IMO, but the instances where you're obtaining that sheer volume of damage done % modifiers is so rare that I don't think it's as urgent compared to how it was last week.

YandereGirlfriend · May 4

Zeeejay wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Rakkhat is still taking a random and uncompensated Gogiga nerf, however.

Very surprised to not see it buffed in the notes as well.

Not exactly a nerf. It's more that it's just not receiving as much of a buff.

Using SkinnyCheeks' calculator https://skinnycheeks.gg/simple-damage-calculator, if you account for the following buffs, here's how it plays out:
Empower, Minor/Major Slayer, Minor/Major Berserk, Weapons Expert, Other Damage CP = buffed 1%

Without Major Slayer and Major Berserk, Voidmantle is buffed 6% compared to live.

Non-Rakkhat heavy attack builds are buffed ~15% compared to live with Major Slayer/Berserk.

Without Major Slayer/Berserk, buffed ~23%.

One thing that is being missed: The empower change is not strictly a buff for Oakensoul users, but also a buff for Pale Order and/or Anthelmir users too.

Rakkhat's Voidmantle could use a slight buff IMO, but the instances where you're obtaining that sheer volume of damage done % modifiers is so rare that I don't think it's as urgent compared to how it was last week.

I think that I would more question the premise of relatively nerfing Rakkat vs. Oakensoul and other competing gear options existing within that niche.

With the PTS4 changes, it appears to span a range from basically treading water with nearly identical damage (in an optimized context) to very minor buff (in a less optimized context), but it still has lost enormous relative power vs. Oakensoul and Anthelmir.

Rakkhat only does one thing, buff Heavy Attack damage. So if it is not the obvious best-in-slot option to achieve that one specific thing then we have reached a major failure of design for the Mythic.

Zeeejay · May 4

It would be really cool to see Rakkhat's bonus be changed or updated so that it is MORE beneficial to be run in an organized/optimized trial group and carve itself as the "top end heavy attack build mythic."

I think Anthelmir is fantastic for solo content, dungeons, and even unoptimized trials and does a great job with its bonus being highly beneficial in that kind of content.

Oakensoul has its own playstyle it's carved out that is also perfect for people who want to play that way.

I'm not sure exactly how Rakkhat's Voidmantle would need to change to accomplish this, but just something I think would be cool to see.

YandereGirlfriend · May 4

Zeeejay wrote: »

It would be really cool to see Rakkhat's bonus be changed or updated so that it is MORE beneficial to be run in an organized/optimized trial group and carve itself as the "top end heavy attack build mythic."

I think Anthelmir is fantastic for solo content, dungeons, and even unoptimized trials and does a great job with its bonus being highly beneficial in that kind of content.

Oakensoul has its own playstyle it's carved out that is also perfect for people who want to play that way.

I'm not sure exactly how Rakkhat's Voidmantle would need to change to accomplish this, but just something I think would be cool to see.

Big agree.

That would be a very worthwhile and interesting niche for the set to fill.

YandereGirlfriend · May 4

Is there any chance for a developer comment that Rakkat is on the radar for improvement? Hopefully during this PTS.

@ZOS_Kevin

Zeejay's conceptual idea above is quite good, IMO. To rework it into the high-end Heavy Attack Mythic.

As it stands currently, it is highly likely losing to Anthelmir formats for Heavy Attack builds. Which is not a call to nerf Anthelmir but rather a call to buff Rakkat.

Orbital78 · May 4

I am happy to see some Oakensoul heavy attack love, it was much needed. I think it would be good to see Rakkhat get some love too though. Even on live it was fairly behind without subclassing. I would like to see dark magic get some love too, but that is a different subject.

TheGMac316 · May 5

LunaFlora wrote: »

is the 150% change better? it seems like a good change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692220/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-3

As someone who suffers with Rheumatoid arthritisin his hands I really hope they don't nerf Empower to much as HA builds are really all I can play.
I never expect to hit the DPS range of a 2-bar build but I atleast wanna be able to hit 100k