The Current State of Ranged Magblade.

FoJul · May 2

The purpose of this thread is to provide pointed feedback for the Nightblade class, specifically the archetype of Ranged Magblade in PvP and PvE. I am someone who has had over 10k hours played, a couple of trifectas, and plenty of experience in end game content. My preferred class I've played over my time in ESO has been Ranged Magblade, however I have played multiple classes including Templar, DK, Necromancer, Arcanist, and Sorcerer.

PvP Feedback:
Ranged Nightblade currently does not translate into the current iterations of PvP despite multiple theories of damage and builds applied to the archetype. In practice, melee Nightblade builds outperform its ranged counterpart in nearly every meaningful category including damage, survivability, and overall combat effectiveness. The pain points listed below still remain consistent dating back from as early as 2019 to now when class adjustments began shifting the class in a more melee-centric direction without any compensation for ranged playstyles.
Ranged abilities lack direct damage or sustained pressure needed to compete in current PvP environments.
Intended Skill usage vs reality is not consistent. Example: Abilities such as Swallow Soul and Cripple/Debilitate are intended to provide sustained pressure from range, but do not provide comparable values of damage when compared to melee options within the Nightblade class kit. When you compare these 2 abilities to other classes, the damage is still not comparable and more utility alone can be utilized when you even look at a Wardens Cliff racer ability.

As mentioned above, multiple theories of damage have been tested, but results have been consistent. Below are some examples of builds that have been created on the PTS for the upcoming patch that are currently used on the live server and despite recent changes made and additional systems implemented (Class Mastery System), the results remain the same.

A key issue I've found is that hybridization along with balance changes over the years have consolidated the power budget of the class into melee-oriented gameplay at the cost of versatility within the class. Abilities like Merciless Resolve significantly outperform ranged alternatives, however all other meaningful incentives to engage with the ranged toolkit that exists within the Nightblade Class have been lessened over the years. Looking specifically at the Class set, Soulcleaver: Soulcleaver has undergone multiple adjustments; from 18% damage/healing to 21%, and now down to 15% yet across these iterations for a set specifically intended in interacting with multiple ranged skills for Nightblade aren't even elevated to a competitive state. Within the Class Mastery's PTS Week 3, after extensive testing, I have not found this system to do enough to elevate Ranged Nightblade to a competitive level when comparing what its melee counterpart can do.

Some additional pain points I've encountered include

Loss of effective ranged CC options
Ultimate abilities remain melee-centric in application
Impale vs Killers blade damage
No meaningful tradeoff where ranged archetypes should excel over Melee

Looking specifically within the context of dueling and comparing outcomes to what a Sorcerer build can accomplish, Sorcerers demonstrated greater sustain, higher survivability, nearly double the damage output, and have consistently retained the ability to reset fights. This is something historically Ranged Nightblades were able to do as well before melee-centric changes were made. The comparison itself is just to highlight that the pain points mentioned above are not simply due to a "build" or "skill issue", but more of a relative performance and identity drift over time.

PvE Feedback:
Ranged Nightblade as an archetype has faced similar issues in PvP in PvE as well. It is not only underperforming, but also is largely absent from optimized group compositions in high-end content. Within the context of DPS, when you place a ranged Magblade under optimized conditions (including trial buffs, ideal build compositions, etc), the archetype itself is not able to reach competitive DPS thresholds.

When referencing the ESO Logs website, while it can only provide a snapshot into what players may be doing, it is clear that in a majority of endgame PvE raids and player compositions listed, a Ranged Magblade is not considered. The numbers produced in the instances that were logged reflect it as well. Looking at older updates within the ESO Logs website and comparing them to more recent patches, there is a noticeable drop off in damage. This decline is especially evident when comparing the outcomes surrounding the Necrom update to recent patches. Below are a few examples of builds I have used in PvE, however the results remain the same when you compare them to other classes using the same gear:

Across multiple configurations using Soulcleaver or a more common PvE DPS Setup and factoring in the new Class Mastery system, my findings show that in spite of this new system and previous patch changes, PvE viability for Ranged Nightblade remains consistent. Consistently not competitive.

Some Overall Feedback:
Nightblade at large is effectively forced into melee gameplay or subclassing away any identity that previously existed as a ranged archetype and its ranged archetype in its purist state does not fulfill a viable or distinct role within PvP or Pve. Systems like Subclassing, Scribing, and Class Mastery Passives have not changed this. Set-based solutions, including Soulcleaver have not resolved or even softened underlying issues. Targeted Skill and toolkit adjustments may be needed in order to directly address these pain points rather than implementation of new systems. Members of ZOS's team, including @Zos_Kevin, have communicated a clear goal of improving transparency and responsiveness to player feedback

ZOS_Kevin wrote:

“As do class rebalancing, we are working to get player feedback to guide teams during the process.”

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote:

Feedback is another area where the PTS provides us with critical insights. Due to where the PTS falls within our development pipeline, there are limits to how quickly we can respond to feedback, as many of you have noted. There are risks associated with making significant pivots to address feedback that would require complex changes, especially a few weeks before launch. This type of feedback is still valuable; it also takes time to address in the right way, and changes are likely to come after launch or beyond, depending on the scope and complexity. We are exploring options to begin getting your feedback much earlier, ahead of the PTS.

ZOS_Kevin wrote:

We said that earlier this year! And hold us to it. We want to make sure content is fun, first and foremost. And we can take player feedback to make things better.

React · May 2

I've got a lot of nostalgia for this playstyle, as it is something I really enjoyed back in it's heyday. It would be really nice to see some buffs to some of the ranged components in the nightblade toolkit. Unfortunately I do think the reality is that we'll be waiting until the nightblade class gets it's class rework pass, but in the meantime I'd be happy to contribute some ideas.

First and foremost, the NB class mastery passives are currently terrible. Would be really great to see some improvements to those to see if they help the "rangedblade" playstyle.

I'll try to just focus on the ranged parts of the nightblade toolkit, and how they can be improved. Merciless resolve obviously does not need to be touched, so I'll skip that skill.

Swallow Soul - The bread and butter spammable of ranged nightblade. This skill suffers from several main pain points. First, it's just been left untouched for so many years. As other options got stronger, Swallow sort of fell to the wayside. It's dual functionality as a heal is decent, but in practice the skill doesn't do enough damage to be your main spammable, it doesn't heal consistently enough to be a heal that you can rely on, and it lacks any useful secondary effect to help save on barspace/justify slotting it in the first place.

I'm not sure what the best route is to remedy this. Perhaps they could slot some additional effect into the skill, such as a buff that might help save barspace elsewhere, or just flat out buff the skill's tooltip values to make it more enticing as a spammable. But regardless, it'll still suffer from the larger issue which is it's travel time.

Swallow soul might be the second slowest projectile in the game, right after the warden cliff racer. This makes it extremely prone to being dodged, and also renders the skill practically worthless as a pressure tool for finishing off a low health opponent. I think more than anything, significantly speeding up the travel time of this ability would drastically improve it's "feel" in combat.

Impale - Impale as an execute used to be very strong back in it's day, when it was more common to see targets hanging out in the 25% health range due to lower max HP and the reduced availability of HOTs in the game. These days, it is extremely difficult to land impale when someone is in execute range because it is a travel time projectile and has no other effect apart from dealing execute damage, meaning you'd never cast it unless you were sure you'd be catching a target in execute range. It is very difficult to justify slotting this as a result, because that barspace would often be better used for a buff, debuff, or dot that would be much more widely applicable in combat.

I think the biggest buff to this skill would just be to raise it's execute threshold to 35% HP. Not quite the 50% HP of it's other morph, and killer's blade would still have the added benefit of healing you when securing kills, but impale could become a worthwhile execute to slot for the ranged playstyle.

Mark Target - It still blows my mind to this day that they put a cost on this skill after elemental susceptibility was buffed. This skill is so severely outclassed by ELE susc that it is almost laughable.

I'd remove the cost on this skill and give it a better secondary effect. The heal to full health when killing someone who is marked is actually a cool functionality, but it is nowhere near worthwhile compared to what ele susc offers. A decent debuff like brittle or minor breach or a buff like major sorcery/brutality, as well as removing the cost could make this worth slotting again.

Aspect of Terror Morph - Manifestation of Terror - Talk about an outdated stun. This is the ranged morph of mass hysteria (commonly referred to as "fear"). This summons a trap at a target location which takes two seconds to "arm", which can then be triggered by people walking on it. Functionally, this is just useless. The other morph is always better.

A ranged stun is one of the things that the class REALLY lacks. I would change this skill to a single target, dodge-able but unblockable stun, with a range of 15 meters instead of the typical 28 meters. A strong stun to help deal with blocking targets, but requiring you to be slightly closer to take advantage of it's strength.

Cripple/Debilitate -Cripple really has lost a lot of it's value these days, as immobilizes aren't as potent as they once were, and the debilitate offers a much stronger DOT and a slightly more useful secondary effect. I think the functionality of these skills are actually OK as is, with cripple being a CC tool and debilitate being a reasonably strong DOT - but I think at base, they could use a secondary effect. This would be another great candidate for major sorcery/brutality, which would save you barspace elsewhere. Or perhaps minor force.

acanca · May 2

I agree, specially with the change to soulcleaver, NB seems to be cemented as a melee class. With the nerf to siphoning on soul cleaver SS is no longer even on par with concealed weapon even on a set mostly dedicated to siphoning

I dont want to see NB become a gank bot again because its a really polarizing playstyle but thats where the class masteries seem to be pushing the class

Rohamad_Ali · May 2

I'm tired Boss.

FoJul · May 6

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'm tired Boss.

I try to bring this playstyle up twice a year or more to get attention. I really don't enjoy any other classes/playstyles. I just wanna have fun again.

Radiate77 · May 6

React wrote: »

I'm not sure what the best route is to remedy this. Perhaps they could slot some additional effect into the skill, such as a buff that might help save barspace elsewhere, or just flat out buff the skill's tooltip values to make it more enticing as a spammable. But regardless, it'll still suffer from the larger issue which is it's travel time.

Swallow soul might be the second slowest projectile in the game, right after the warden cliff racer…

Dark Flare would like to say hi.

Vaqual · May 6

React wrote: »

Swallow Soul - The bread and butter spammable of ranged nightblade. This skill suffers from several main pain points. First, it's just been left untouched for so many years. As other options got stronger, Swallow sort of fell to the wayside. It's dual functionality as a heal is decent, but in practice the skill doesn't do enough damage to be your main spammable, it doesn't heal consistently enough to be a heal that you can rely on, and it lacks any useful secondary effect to help save on barspace/justify slotting it in the first place.

I'm not sure what the best route is to remedy this. Perhaps they could slot some additional effect into the skill, such as a buff that might help save barspace elsewhere, or just flat out buff the skill's tooltip values to make it more enticing as a spammable. But regardless, it'll still suffer from the larger issue which is it's travel time.

Swallow soul might be the second slowest projectile in the game, right after the warden cliff racer. This makes it extremely prone to being dodged, and also renders the skill practically worthless as a pressure tool for finishing off a low health opponent. I think more than anything, significantly speeding up the travel time of this ability would drastically improve it's "feel" in combat.

On one hand it can be quite devastating to lose the heal (or most of it) when the enemy shields, dodges or blocks. On the other hand it can actually provide pretty crazy heal in PvPvE, when NPCs are available. You are locking it as a spammable then, but it can provide substantial value. Maybe another good approach would be to not let a re-cast overwrite the current HoT, if the remaining total is higher than the remaining total of new cast (or maybe even just going by tick magnitude, as it can be frequently re-applied).

Additional effects, such as maybe a moderate chance of proccing a bleed on top of the natural 10 % overcharged could also be a big help. Or as you said, another form of bar economy buff. A while ago I also suggested a small "cash out" bonus for remaining HoT-ticks in form a single-use %-damange mod. Or something along those lines. I guess the Warden rework will be an indicator for the depth of changes we can expect for the NB rework.

Great summary overall and I agree with your points.

Turtle_Bot · May 7

Despite being a sorc main, rangeblade actually was something I enjoyed playing from time to time back in the day (swallow soul especially was really nice).

Unfortunately (imo) the playstyle suffers a lot of the same issues that every off-meta sorc build suffers from (especially sorc builds that try to use the class skills and not crutch on the latest combination of non-class skill + broken proc set):

- skills not worth slotting
- lack of bar space to fill out a build
- gradual shift even further towards stamina as "the meta resource" and melee as the main playstyle over the years post hybridization
- destro staff power consolidated in ele sus to the detriment of everything else in that line
- other factors already mentioned

Imo, I would look to see what ZOS does with warden and sorc to see if NB can maybe get some similar aspects for the rangeblade (or "bloodmage") playstyle for it's refresh and I would be hoping those classes get major reworks to secondary effects and fixes to things like travel time, cast time, etc. over just more numbers tweaks, because like sorc, numbers tweaks alone won't fix the rangeblade playstyle, they will only cause it to follow sorc in bouncing between broken OP and completely unplayable with no in-between.

ArctosCethlenn · May 7

My absolute hail mary would be to just merge Mark Target and Cripple, leaving space for an entirely new skill in assassination.

One morph of cripple could be crippling grasp with a root, dot, and 20s major breach (not limited to one target)

other morph either:
debilitate with dot, major breach, and gain major berserk if the target dies (one target cap as current mark)
debilitate with dot, major breach, and applies to enemies within 6 yards of the initial target (to help nb cleave, not limited to one target ofc).

edit: oh, and rework siphoning attacks and morphs to deal slight additional damage up to once per second and heal for the damage done, rather than just heal up to once per second when doing damage.

MashmalloMan · May 7

React wrote: »

..

Swallow soul might be the second slowest projectile in the game, right after the warden cliff racer…

Radiate77 wrote: »

Dark Flare would like to say hi.

Some tests I did a few months back, ranging from 1m - 28m.. take these results with a grain of salt, it's all based on Combat Metrix's combat log feature with the "used skill" and "damage event" toggles, times varied around 30~50ms, I did about 10 tests and picked an average/mean that seemed to make the most sense.

Ranged Light Attacks = 0.3~0.8
Force Shock = 0.3~0.6
Flame Skull = 0.35~1.45
Cliff Racer = 1.2~1.2
Crystal Frag = 0.32~1.08
Insta Frag = 0.53~1.08
Dark Flare = 0.53~1.08
Runeblades = 0.32~1.0 (0~22m)
Poop Fist = 0.3~1.0
Strife = 0.55~0.85

Worst to best, results are surprising. I didn't expect Strife to be the fastest, although it does have the random +200ms penalty beyond the base 300ms travel time that Dark Flare and Insta Frag have, a relic from 2014~2017 dev balance decisions. It's relatively fast, but because it's slow in melee, people probably find it really clunky vs other attacks that will end up faster in that range. It's also nearly invisible, so hard to tell what it's even doing, it doesn't give that real feedback you find on Force Shock.

Also interesting that Runeblades has 3 hits with an animation that implies they land at different intervals, but they actually land at the exact same time similar to Force Shock. Since the 3 hits are the same element, they're probably landing too close to allow for multiple Overcharged procs which is why it can only ever happen once per cast, but still has 3x the chance to happen.

I thought Flare would be the worst, at least worse than Frags, but they're nearly identical, I can only assume they share the same code with a fake animation that doesn't represent what's actually happening similar to Runeblades. Flare shoots into the sky very quick, Frag floats very slowly forward.

Here's some other skills people complain about:

Soul Trap = 0.34~1.43
Fetcher Infection = 0.35~1.7
Cripple = 0.35~1.43
Impale = 0.3~0.61
Grim Focus = 0.35~1.1
Spear Shard = 1.05~1.05
Lightning Splash = 0.8~0.85
Mages Fury = 0.8~0.85
Bound Armaments (1st-4th) = 0.6-1.35 ~ 1.1-1.85

BA is technically the longest, but it is a semi spammable with a caked in delay so I'll give it a pass even if I find it annoying, so the worst is definitely Fetcher Infection with Cripple and Soul Trap as a close second.

Soul Trap and Fetcher Infection have a very transparent animation, so it was never super obvious, but if you flip on the skill style for the purple crows, you'll notice very quickly how bad Fetcher really is. It's astonishingly bad.

Impale is actually much quicker than I thought matching Force Shock speed as the fastest.

Spear Shard and Lightning Splash have a hidden, locked in delay from any distance, but don't write it on the tooltip like Volley, probably why they all bug out if you cast abilities too quick

Mages Fury like Cliff Racer have that locked in travel time too, but I noticed Fury has a very small 50ms delay which tells me like Runeblade, the animation is hiding the fact that it's not actually spawning the attack above the enemy, and is instead an invisible, but fast, projectile coming from the user.

Anyway, hope they clean up these skills. Make them faster, nothing should take 1.7s and that 300ms minimum travel time needs to be dropped to like 100ms with the removal of the added 200ms on Strife, Frag, and Flare. Hybridization has made all skills viable, even if you play melee, you will have some type of ranged skill, so it really sucks to have this clunkiness baked into them with no choice around it.

katorga · May 7

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Despite being a sorc main, rangeblade actually was something I enjoyed playing from time to time back in the day (swallow soul especially was really nice).

Unfortunately (imo) the playstyle suffers a lot of the same issues that every off-meta sorc build suffers from (especially sorc builds that try to use the class skills and not crutch on the latest combination of non-class skill + broken proc set):

- skills not worth slotting
- lack of bar space to fill out a build
- gradual shift even further towards stamina as "the meta resource" and melee as the main playstyle over the years post hybridization
- destro staff power consolidated in ele sus to the detriment of everything else in that line
- other factors already mentioned

Imo, I would look to see what ZOS does with warden and sorc to see if NB can maybe get some similar aspects for the rangeblade (or "bloodmage") playstyle for it's refresh and I would be hoping those classes get major reworks to secondary effects and fixes to things like travel time, cast time, etc. over just more numbers tweaks, because like sorc, numbers tweaks alone won't fix the rangeblade playstyle, they will only cause it to follow sorc in bouncing between broken OP and completely unplayable with no in-between.

Rangeblade was one of my fav crushing shock gank classes back in the day. Just impale or merciless....unlimited sustain, high crit/dmg, high movement speed. Faded when I could subclass to better supporting lines. It should work fine with the current crushing shock ganks using shattered paths. Old days, way of fire/winterborn + draugrkin. spam LA/CS into merciless.