Nerfing WW further in Next Update for PvE?!

coop500 · May 1

Prepare to be suckmonster 2.0 guys, we're not allowed to be good or acceptable in high end PvE content I guess. Especially once the other classes get their reworks, and stuff that werewolf can use gets nerfed into the ground like that Signet Ring mythic.

LunaFlora · May 1

that is sad!

JaxontheUnfortunate · May 1

Yup not surprised at all about this.

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

So much doom-posting, SMH.

Nobody even knows what the changes will be and yet we're out here reacting to them anyway.

It seems as though anything short of canonizing WW as the new PvE meta will be met with, "Nerfed into Oblivion", "Completely unusable", "They hate us!", etc..

Recall that WW on PTS is doing WAY better than most classes currently on Live are and that it is likely 150-200% of the highest Live WW parses. That's a huge W.

Turbo-sweat PvE groups are gonna do what they're gonna do. You can't change that. I can't change that. But there's nothing stopping a WW group, properly built around the playstyle, from completing anything that they want... even if their damage ultimately lands at "only" 175k+ or whatever.

Wuuffyy · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So much doom-posting, SMH

I know, we totally didn’t call the last round of harsh nerfs based on sentiment or anything related to the last preview…

Keep in mind, week 4 PTS changes (changes this week) are usually the majority of combat changes/last-in-line before any given launch (they have a pretty evident track record of this over the last several years without question).

Anyways, simply posting to say that werewolf should be allowed to be competitive in PvE (once Signet mythic is inevitably nerfed at some point, I see this upcoming nerf and Signet exception dropping us to 140k or so with bite only, easily).

So an obviously busted (everywhere) mythic (that will be nerfed) with melee/no true cleave (bite) and a nerf to passive damage- which I agree will result in low, melee-based DPS: unviable for true-endgame.

coop500 · May 3

Yeah, around 140K DPS was the highest parse I got without Signet. Now I'm not an expert on parsing, so someone might get a bit higher, but WW is THE class I live and breathe PVE on if I can.
And this was with a Single Target build, not Claw Fury, all my parses with 'Werewolf beam' was slightly lower.

140K DPS isn't BAD, but it's not great when you know the other classes will only keep climbing in power, utility, and ease of play. While we're about to get hit with nerfs as a melee-only playstyle with many drawbacks.

YandereGirlfriend · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah, around 140K DPS was the highest parse I got without Signet. Now I'm not an expert on parsing, so someone might get a bit higher, but WW is THE class I live and breathe PVE on if I can.
And this was with a Single Target build, not Claw Fury, all my parses with 'Werewolf beam' was slightly lower.

140K DPS isn't BAD, but it's not great when you know the other classes will only keep climbing in power, utility, and ease of play. While we're about to get hit with nerfs as a melee-only playstyle with many drawbacks.

It's only in crazy power-creep world where 140k can be remotely construed as being underwhelming.

It's also a huge throw on basically any build to not use Signet as well.

coop500 · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah, around 140K DPS was the highest parse I got without Signet. Now I'm not an expert on parsing, so someone might get a bit higher, but WW is THE class I live and breathe PVE on if I can.
And this was with a Single Target build, not Claw Fury, all my parses with 'Werewolf beam' was slightly lower.

140K DPS isn't BAD, but it's not great when you know the other classes will only keep climbing in power, utility, and ease of play. While we're about to get hit with nerfs as a melee-only playstyle with many drawbacks.

It's only in crazy power-creep world where 140k can be remotely construed as being underwhelming.

It's also a huge throw on basically any build to not use Signet as well.

I didn't say it was underwhelming. Please don't put words in my mouth. I actually specifically said it wasn't bad, and is currently ahead of most other one bar builds that I tested.
That is, of course, ignoring the many drawbacks WW has, and the fact it's getting nerfed tomorrow, and how WW doesn't choose to be a one bar build, but other classes can/do.

Wuuffyy · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah, around 140K DPS was the highest parse I got without Signet. Now I'm not an expert on parsing, so someone might get a bit higher, but WW is THE class I live and breathe PVE on if I can.
And this was with a Single Target build, not Claw Fury, all my parses with 'Werewolf beam' was slightly lower.

140K DPS isn't BAD, but it's not great when you know the other classes will only keep climbing in power, utility, and ease of play. While we're about to get hit with nerfs as a melee-only playstyle with many drawbacks.

It's only in crazy power-creep world where 140k can be remotely construed as being underwhelming.

It's also a huge throw on basically any build to not use Signet as well.

Agreed and agreed. I remember when ~50-60k and ~100k respectively were considered ‘the best of the best’. It’s crazy to think, regardless of reasoning, that we are in a place where a player can reach the lower 200k’s for DPS in a super optimal setting.

Quick throwback to remembering when we used to parse on Spindleclutch’s Bloodspawn boss. That was a ‘right of initiation’ there.

Arunei · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So much doom-posting, SMH.

Nobody even knows what the changes will be and yet we're out here reacting to them anyway.

It seems as though anything short of canonizing WW as the new PvE meta will be met with, "Nerfed into Oblivion", "Completely unusable", "They hate us!", etc..

Recall that WW on PTS is doing WAY better than most classes currently on Live are and that it is likely 150-200% of the highest Live WW parses. That's a huge W.

Turbo-sweat PvE groups are gonna do what they're gonna do. You can't change that. I can't change that. But there's nothing stopping a WW group, properly built around the playstyle, from completing anything that they want... even if their damage ultimately lands at "only" 175k+ or whatever.

...yeah, because most Classes haven't gotten their refresh yet. Of COURSE WW should be doing better after its rework than Classes that haven't gotten theirs yet. It's not better than a 1bar DK build though, not from my own testing I've been doing. And they're wanting to nerf it even more in PvE, because...it's doing more damage than non-reworked Classes?

This reminds me of the people going on about how DK needs to be nerfed because it's outperforming other Classes now. Yes, of course it will be. What's the point of bringing Pure Classes up to Subclassing level if they're just going to get nerfed right back to the levels of unworked Classes, though?

WW is exactly like DK, it'll only be more OP than most other 1bar builds until those other Classes get their refresh. And after everything, they should all roughly be at the same level, including WW. But if they keep nerfing it now to keep it in line with other unworked Classes then literally what is even the point of reworking it?

ETA I started feeling cruddy after working on Challenges last night and didn't have the chance to post my thread I was gonna make with those screens of said testing, but that's not a bad thing. As I was saving the images to upload them I realized I forgot to do a Boss on my DK and also I was having a hard time killing a Boss in a Public Dungeon on him because other people were farming and it was impossible to get into a fight with the Boss on my own for my test. I also figured I'd try doing a FG solo on both characters and get Boss battle info.

If the NM is open on PTS I might try to grab numbers for both of them from there too, even though I'll get curbstomped in like 2 seconds >__>.

coop500 · May 3

Arunei wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So much doom-posting, SMH.

Nobody even knows what the changes will be and yet we're out here reacting to them anyway.

It seems as though anything short of canonizing WW as the new PvE meta will be met with, "Nerfed into Oblivion", "Completely unusable", "They hate us!", etc..

Recall that WW on PTS is doing WAY better than most classes currently on Live are and that it is likely 150-200% of the highest Live WW parses. That's a huge W.

Turbo-sweat PvE groups are gonna do what they're gonna do. You can't change that. I can't change that. But there's nothing stopping a WW group, properly built around the playstyle, from completing anything that they want... even if their damage ultimately lands at "only" 175k+ or whatever.

...yeah, because most Classes haven't gotten their refresh yet. Of COURSE WW should be doing better after its rework than Classes that haven't gotten theirs yet. It's not better than a 1bar DK build though, not from my own testing I've been doing. And they're wanting to nerf it even more in PvE, because...it's doing more damage than non-reworked Classes?

This reminds me of the people going on about how DK needs to be nerfed because it's outperforming other Classes now. Yes, of course it will be. What's the point of bringing Pure Classes up to Subclassing level if they're just going to get nerfed right back to the levels of unworked Classes, though?

WW is exactly like DK, it'll only be more OP than most other 1bar builds until those other Classes get their refresh. And after everything, they should all roughly be at the same level, including WW. But if they keep nerfing it now to keep it in line with other unworked Classes then literally what is even the point of reworking it?

ETA I started feeling cruddy after working on Challenges last night and didn't have the chance to post my thread I was gonna make with those screens of said testing, but that's not a bad thing. As I was saving the images to upload them I realized I forgot to do a Boss on my DK and also I was having a hard time killing a Boss in a Public Dungeon on him because other people were farming and it was impossible to get into a fight with the Boss on my own for my test. I also figured I'd try doing a FG solo on both characters and get Boss battle info.

If the NM is open on PTS I might try to grab numbers for both of them from there too, even though I'll get curbstomped in like 2 seconds >__>.

Sadly Night Market isn't open, I wish it was, we have the GP for it, but I even manually navigated my way there, no portal to enter, no marker, no house.
But yeah I guess these people just want WW to suck forever, it's really sad. The point of reworks is to be stronger, they're raising the floor so people stop being stuck with 20K DPS (a real experience I had yesterday in the NM, my lame little 40K DPS werewolf doing 30% of the group damage in a full PUG group.)

coop500 · May 3

And that's the thing too, I'm not saying PTS werewolf is bad right now, but that it's okay, it's acceptable, it's playable in trials and the like. You'll be losing out on some power in the form of range and utility, but you're not a total joke anymore.

My concern is if we get nerfs, and other classes just keep rising while we're forgotten after this patch (as we most likely will be) then we'll just fall further and further behind every patch, all over again.

Wup_sa · May 3

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

Wuuffyy · May 3

Quick reminder for all. Anyone can be in a vet trial. A 'good enough' group can throw someone in a corner, let them die, and carry on like nothing ever happened.

However, if long-standing PvE trifecta guild member (example name) 'notRalph1' tries to bring a werewolf into a Godslayer run, especially after these nerfs- they're telling him to swap regardless of who he is or what he's capable of. That's because unless there are legitimately inexperienced people in your trial, werewolf has a VERY LIKELY chance to be at the very bottom of any group CMX for DPS-on-target, especially when the trial requires movement or punishes melee.

And this is in comparison to non-reworked classes with decent 'class mastery' damage passives as well (because they have the option of range and better util to fit a group).

(notification just came in) Oooh, @Wup_sa is back again. I wonder (0.o) what they're going to say.

coop500 · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

Tommy_The_Gun · May 3

The question is: Will they somehow manage to make WW worse than it is now ?

Wup_sa · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The question is: Will they somehow manage to make WW worse than it is now ?

The answer is yes. They have (in PvP) and will continue to do so (in both modes)

It functions in PvE now... until every reworked class is parsing 40-60k higher with range and actual cleave. And then it's back to being a full-fledged meme spec everywhere but with worse tooltips than current live (for PvP).

Edit: Signet parses are being using on the majority if not all of top-end specs (as mentioned several times above by OP and other commenters)... just like many other classes and specs right now on PTS. It's a VERY powerful mythic that hilariously makes dropping your ultimate number (by ulting, etc.) worse than just holding it.

coop500 · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, short range and narrow cleave (seriously try it yourself, WW cleave skill is the worst of Arcanist Beam and DK breath, it's narrow and short) or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs tomorrow.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

Wup_sa · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, clunky cleave or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs soon.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

coop500 · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, clunky cleave or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs soon.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Yes, then once they are nerfed, WW will be worthless in endgame content. They kind of already are due to their limitations and that everyone can abuse those OP sets already, that's not unique to werewolf.

Seriously, if you have the PTS, try the new Claw Fury skill, it's narrow and short and honestly pathetic. Yeah if your targets don't ever move around or you never have to move, it's fine. But that's not the reality of real content.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Agreed, you'll always use the most efficient spec for PvE as damage is king. With that being said, not much beats Signet (or even really comes close) right now- especially for werewolf with the unique way its ultimate functions.

They could easily disable Signet right now for werewolf. They've already done so (adjusted) via an intermediate patch for interaction Feral Guardian specifically. If they change nothing else, that interaction should not be brought to live as it only serves to further have werewolf's kit nerfed with 'proof' provided.

Wup_sa · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, clunky cleave or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs soon.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Yes, then once they are nerfed, WW will be worthless in endgame content. They kind of already are due to their limitations and that everyone can abuse those OP sets already, that's not unique to werewolf.

Seriously, if you have the PTS, try the new Claw Fury skill, it's narrow and short and honestly pathetic.

Well 2 bar setup will always be stronger in raids, because you can provide more group buffs through skills and sets. But thats the devs fault for trying to balance ww as a skill line and not make it a full fletched class/commitment.

coop500 · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Agreed, you'll always use the most efficient spec for PvE as damage is king. With that being said, not much beats Signet (or even really comes close) right now- especially for werewolf with the unique way its ultimate functions.

They could easily disable Signet right now for werewolf. They've already done so via an intermediate patch for interaction Feral Guardian specifically. If they change nothing else, that interaction should not be brought to live as it only serves to further have werewolf's kit nerfed with 'proof' provided.

Yes, I want Signet disabled for WW just to show how much that ring is carrying that spec right now.

coop500 · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, clunky cleave or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs soon.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Yes, then once they are nerfed, WW will be worthless in endgame content. They kind of already are due to their limitations and that everyone can abuse those OP sets already, that's not unique to werewolf.

Seriously, if you have the PTS, try the new Claw Fury skill, it's narrow and short and honestly pathetic.

Well 2 bar setup will always be stronger in raids, because you can provide more group buffs through skills and sets. But thats the devs fault for trying to balance ww as a skill line and not make it a full fletched class/commitment.

One bar setups without WW will be stronger too, that's the point.

Arunei · May 3

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

I have said this so many times people are probably getting sick of it, but we should not base balance around what the top players can do. Yet AGAIN, they did this with U35 and instead of lowering the massive damage the top percent wete doing and making things ""accessible"" for average and below-average people, the top people kept on making massive damage builds and everyone else had their builds nerfed.

You ask why people are "overreacting" to nerfs? We aren't, we're trying to tell people that to keep nerfing WW because it's "too OP" and "stronger than most other Classes" will lead to it being worse than everything else once those things all get THEIR reworks. That point seems to be one people are ignoring; only DK has had its rework and just like DK, WW SHOULD OBVIOUSLY be stronger than NON-REWORKED Classes. Trying to balance reworked WW against non-reworked Classes is impossble and should not be something anyone considers is feasible or makes sense.

By all means fix broken interactions, limit things that are busted, fix bugs. But can we please stop acting like it's unreasonable for reworked WW to be stronger than non-reworked Classes?

YandereGirlfriend · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, short range and narrow cleave (seriously try it yourself, WW cleave skill is the worst of Arcanist Beam and DK breath, it's narrow and short) or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs tomorrow.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

If you're not going to use Signet and other BiS options then you need to do the same for every other class that you compare WW damage to for U50. Otherwise it is a completely disingenuous and skewed comparison intended to make WW appear weaker than it actually is.

Because like, yeah, obviously when you self-nerf and don't use the best options then your damage is going to be lower.

"Abusing" is such a loaded and overused term as well. I would suggest to avoid it, especially when used as a catch-all for anything that someone doesn't like. It isn't "abuse" unless it's leveraging unintended behavior. And as far as anyone knows, Signet is performing exactly as intended. Folk are using the tools available to them in the way that is intended.

Wuuffyy · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If you're not going to use Signet and other BiS options then you need to do the same for every other class that you compare WW damage to for U50. Otherwise it is a completely disingenuous and skewed comparison intended to make WW appear weaker than it actually is.

Feeling like a broken record haha! Look at PTS werewolf, look at mythic (notice also they have already disabled one offending player skill specifically for its interaction).

Now notice mythic and wolf look like a match made in the pits of cheese and clearly shouldn't interact with each other as they're both insanely toxic with each other... especially when it's doing so well on specs that don't perform like werewolf.

If they were to keep this mythic as-is (they shouldn't), it shouldn't be released without werewolf exclusion.

As long as this mythic remains in its unchanged state, it will inexplicably be tied to werewolf balancing for better/worse.

coop500 · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If you're not going to use Signet and other BiS options then you need to do the same for every other class that you compare WW damage to for U50. Otherwise it is a completely disingenuous and skewed comparison intended to make WW appear weaker than it actually is.

For the record, I don't know where you got the idea that I was using Signet on the non-WW builds I was testing, but I wasn't. So please stop with spewing nonsense about being "disingenuous"

I used the same, non-cheese fairly basic DPS one bar builds (a few different kinds) for both testing WW and not WW, with no Signet or Class Masteries for either.

Oakensoul and that Vel Amulet everyone uses for Beam Builds is the mythics I used, along with Whorl of the Depths and Order's Wrath (swapped out for Deadly Strike at other tests) I did this not to test the meta, but to test a fairly standard baseline for beam-like one bar builds.

Werewolf came out slightly ahead, at the cost of being clunky, short range, reduced cleave cone, and ult minigame battling.

I'm not a parsing master or a meta chaser, so someone else might get different results with some tweaks, but that was my discovery after a good full day of testing and tweaking with different combos and classes (DK breath, Warden one bar for general non-channelled but still one bar build, and Arcanist beam.)

YandereGirlfriend · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Quick reminder for all. Anyone can be in a vet trial. A 'good enough' group can throw someone in a corner, let them die, and carry on like nothing ever happened.

However, if long-standing PvE trifecta guild member (example name) 'notRalph1' tries to bring a werewolf into a Godslayer run, especially after these nerfs- they're telling him to swap regardless of who he is or what he's capable of. That's because unless there are legitimately inexperienced people in your trial, werewolf has a VERY LIKELY chance to be at the very bottom of any group CMX for DPS-on-target, especially when the trial requires movement or punishes melee.

And this is in comparison to non-reworked classes with decent 'class mastery' damage passives as well (because they have the option of range and better util to fit a group).

(notification just came in) Oooh, @Wup_sa is back again. I wonder (0.o) what they're going to say.

Honestly, if a WW wants a slot in an high-end prog then they will probably have to do so from within a WW guild.

That isn't shade on WW specifically but simply the reality that those sorts of things always seem to require adhering to hard meta requirements. The only way to avoid them is to make your own group and do it yourself. We've seen basically all non-Beam builds get vetoed for such content for years and they likely will continue to be vetoed because you run the mathematical best for your group or you are making the content more difficult than it needs to be.

I don't love that situation but non-meta specs (and, by definition, there will always be non-meta specs) would likely have a more productive time organizing amongst themselves to do content than trying to crash through the brick wall of existing high-end prog leads and their guilds.

Arunei · May 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Quick reminder for all. Anyone can be in a vet trial. A 'good enough' group can throw someone in a corner, let them die, and carry on like nothing ever happened.

However, if long-standing PvE trifecta guild member (example name) 'notRalph1' tries to bring a werewolf into a Godslayer run, especially after these nerfs- they're telling him to swap regardless of who he is or what he's capable of. That's because unless there are legitimately inexperienced people in your trial, werewolf has a VERY LIKELY chance to be at the very bottom of any group CMX for DPS-on-target, especially when the trial requires movement or punishes melee.

And this is in comparison to non-reworked classes with decent 'class mastery' damage passives as well (because they have the option of range and better util to fit a group).

(notification just came in) Oooh, @Wup_sa is back again. I wonder (0.o) what they're going to say.

Honestly, if a WW wants a slot in an high-end prog then they will probably have to do so from within a WW guild.

That isn't shade on WW specifically but simply the reality that those sorts of things always seem to require adhering to hard meta requirements. The only way to avoid them is to make your own group and do it yourself. We've seen basically all non-Beam builds get vetoed for such content for years and they likely will continue to be vetoed because you run the mathematical best for your group or you are making the content more difficult than it needs to be.

I don't love that situation but non-meta specs (and, by definition, there will always be non-meta specs) would likely have a more productive time organizing amongst themselves to do content than trying to crash through the brick wall of existing high-end prog leads and their guilds.

Why? Why can't WW stay on par with a 1bar Live DK and actually be viable in end-game things? Why should an entire playstyle be locked out of harder content? Why isn't WW allowed to be meta along with anything else? Why do people think less build diversity is better? Why do we have to live with it being nerfed again and again? It's going to get to a point where it lags behind EVERY CLASS once they get reworked at this rate.

ETA the 'you' in this isn't directed at you but is the general form of the word.