Malyore wrote: »

I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

It's honestly hard to say how they compare in terms of difficulty.

The one big difference is that the Writhing Fortress was full of people (for days). You could just run with them and mow down everything. I, personally, found it a bit too easy. But considering it was supposed to be a storm towards the center of an enemy's fortress, and the finale of the (overall boring) Writhing Wall event (preceded by several weeks of fetch quests and crafting - that was the biggest part of the event, while the Fortress only opened for a week at the end of it) it also fit somehow. Generally, I enjoyed the Fortress, except for all the different horrible bugs that stopped some people from completing it (my first and second run also ended with a bug, but the third one worked).

I like the design of the Night Market and think it could be very fun; the only issue I have with it is that, when I tried it yesterday, I saw only 2 people within 1 hour, standing at the respawn points, doing nothing. I didn't come across even one person fighting something, let alone a group. There was no interaction, the chat was completely dead, too.

So all I could do was sneaking and running around alone, which I did, to complete quests. I did that in all 3 zones. That part was even fun, and worked surprisingly well. Unfortunately, it will not help me much, because most parts for those items to unlock parts of the maps (as well as the extra rooms for the house) only drop from bosses, and I, personally, can't defeat those alone (at least not the ones I came across). And the quests actually mostly drop nonsense rewards, with the chance of 1 fragment (but I already heard the drop rate was bad, too). Still, I want to complete all of them once, at least.

My main disappointment stems from the fact that I had been asking in January if the Night Market would be doable without having a pre-made group - basically if you can succeed by "soft grouping" (just running along with random people who are also at the location). And I had been told that this was definitely working. I remember there was even a statement that the whole Night Market was an attempt at large scale "soft grouping" content. So basically like the Writhing Fortress had been. But, while the Writhing Fortress worked, it just doesn't for the Night Market because of the lack of players around.

I read there was a player cap for the whole zone - maybe that should be increased. If you actually could come across enough people at the location, I think the whole thing could work fine.

And I'm saying that as a solo player who doesn't PvP and doesn't group (so no trials for me at all - which is absolutely okay, I don't think every single content in ESO needs to be for me - , and dungeons I only do solo), and who's mostly only here for the lore. Still, "soft grouping" content would actually be something I'd enjoy - larger-scale combat without the hassle of creating a specific group beforehand - , if it's working.

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

It's honestly hard to say how they compare in terms of difficulty.

The one big difference is that the Writhing Fortress was full of people (for days). You could just run with them and mow down everything. I, personally, found it a bit too easy. But considering it was supposed to be a storm towards the center of an enemy's fortress, and the finale of the (overall boring) Writhing Wall event (preceded by several weeks of fetch quests and crafting - that was the biggest part of the event, while the Fortress only opened for a week at the end of it) it also fit somehow. Generally, I enjoyed the Fortress, except for all the different horrible bugs that stopped some people from completing it (my first and second run also ended with a bug, but the third one worked).

I like the design of the Night Market and think it could be very fun; the only issue I have with it is that, when I tried it yesterday, I saw only 2 people within 1 hour, standing at the respawn points, doing nothing. I didn't come across even one person fighting something, let alone a group. There was no interaction, the chat was completely dead, too.

So all I could do was sneaking and running around alone, which I did, to complete quests. I did that in all 3 zones. That part was even fun, and worked surprisingly well. Unfortunately, it will not help me much, because most parts for those items to unlock parts of the maps (as well as the extra rooms for the house) only drop from bosses, and I, personally, can't defeat those alone (at least not the ones I came across). And the quests actually mostly drop nonsense rewards, with the chance of 1 fragment (but I already heard the drop rate was bad, too). Still, I want to complete all of them once, at least.

My main disappointment stems from the fact that I had been asking in January if the Night Market would be doable without having a pre-made group - basically if you can succeed by "soft grouping" (just running along with random people who are also at the location). And I had been told that this was definitely working. I remember there was even a statement that the whole Night Market was an attempt at large scale "soft grouping" content. So basically like the Writhing Fortress had been. But, while the Writhing Fortress worked, it just doesn't for the Night Market because of the lack of players around.

I read there was a player cap for the whole zone - maybe that should be increased. If you actually could come across enough people at the location, I think the whole think could work fine.

And I'm saying that as a solo player who doesn't PvP and doesn't group (so no trials for me at all - which is absolutely okay, I don't think every single content in ESO needs to be for me - , and dungeons I only do solo), and who's mostly only here for the lore. Still, "soft grouping" content would actually be something I'd enjoy - larger-scale combat without the hassle of creating a specific group beforehand - , if it's working.

Totally agree. 100%. I thought it'd be like WF as well and I really enjoyed that even though I'm a solo player as well. But I've always enjoyed events that would lure players in and everyone would just be running around as a make-shift group.

I got my quests done by doing a lot of sneaking as well. lol. I maybe died a few times being attack, but I finally got my quest items.

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

It's honestly hard to say how they compare in terms of difficulty.

The one big difference is that the Writhing Fortress was full of people (for days). You could just run with them and mow down everything. I, personally, found it a bit too easy. But considering it was supposed to be a storm towards the center of an enemy's fortress, and the finale of the (overall boring) Writhing Wall event (preceded by several weeks of fetch quests and crafting - that was the biggest part of the event, while the Fortress only opened for a week at the end of it) it also fit somehow. Generally, I enjoyed the Fortress, except for all the different horrible bugs that stopped some people from completing it (my first and second run also ended with a bug, but the third one worked).

I like the design of the Night Market and think it could be very fun; the only issue I have with it is that, when I tried it yesterday, I saw only 2 people within 1 hour, standing at the respawn points, doing nothing. I didn't come across even one person fighting something, let alone a group. There was no interaction, the chat was completely dead, too.

So all I could do was sneaking and running around alone, which I did, to complete quests. I did that in all 3 zones. That part was even fun, and worked surprisingly well. Unfortunately, it will not help me much, because most parts for those items to unlock parts of the maps (as well as the extra rooms for the house) only drop from bosses, and I, personally, can't defeat those alone (at least not the ones I came across). And the quests actually mostly drop nonsense rewards, with the chance of 1 fragment (but I already heard the drop rate was bad, too). Still, I want to complete all of them once, at least.

My main disappointment stems from the fact that I had been asking in January if the Night Market would be doable without having a pre-made group - basically if you can succeed by "soft grouping" (just running along with random people who are also at the location). And I had been told that this was definitely working. I remember there was even a statement that the whole Night Market was an attempt at large scale "soft grouping" content. So basically like the Writhing Fortress had been. But, while the Writhing Fortress worked, it just doesn't for the Night Market because of the lack of players around.

I read there was a player cap for the whole zone - maybe that should be increased. If you actually could come across enough people at the location, I think the whole thing could work fine.

And I'm saying that as a solo player who doesn't PvP and doesn't group (so no trials for me at all - which is absolutely okay, I don't think every single content in ESO needs to be for me - , and dungeons I only do solo), and who's mostly only here for the lore. Still, "soft grouping" content would actually be something I'd enjoy - larger-scale combat without the hassle of creating a specific group beforehand - , if it's working.

Unfortunately the instance thing may be hurting some people. A cap of 35 means that you may have been dropped into an instance that was newly opened or newly vacated by people cycling out. Im not saying this will fix anything, I'm not on pceu where, iirc, you play. Nor do I know if you're on during your servers prime time. But I suggested this to guild mates yesterday with some success. If you're in an empty instance, go into the social menu and find players on your guild rosters and if they're in the market, port to them. Not saying play you have to play with them but it should let you jump around to different instances and try to get one with people. Last night on PSNA primetime, there were so many instances going and I'm sure folks found themselves in sparse ones. They should also increase the cap to something like 50.

Actually it's a pity how those fragments for the items and housing extra rooms don't drop randomly from all kinds of activities in the Night Market, but are mostly tied to specific bosses, so people will need to grind those, even if they might enjoy other activities in the Market zone much more (there's also quests and puzzles, after all). They could actually have made it freer, and also lean more into the roleplaying aspects of the game, if you could get all necessary drops by just choosing the activities you find most interesting. They could have let you choose a role for your character in one of those market factions - so you could choose to be a fighter and tackle the bosses, or you could choose to be some kind of explorer or scholar solving puzzles, or perhaps a spy sneaking your way through the enemies to steal or sabotage things. Or you could choose to do all kinds of different missions, of course. But for some reason, it's always formulaic and, despite it being a roleplaying game, in the end everyone has to do the same.

twisttop138 wrote: »

But I suggested this to guild mates yesterday with some success. If you're in an empty instance, go into the social menu and find players on your guild rosters and if they're in the market, port to them. Not saying play you have to play with them but it should let you jump around to different instances and try to get one with people. Last night on PSNA primetime, there were so many instances going and I'm sure folks found themselves in sparse ones.

Thanks for the hint, I'll give it a try this evening! Yesterday I just concentrated on sneaking and questing instead, when I saw how empty the place was (of course I hoped I'd come across a group of people while doing that, but, no, sadly not).

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

I think you (or well the original commenter) raise a good point regarding trials, but at the same time I think it's about the context in which these activities exist. Trials are understood to be endgame content for players who want a challenge, whereas events and new DLC zones have long been something very accessible to the whole spectrum of players in terms of difficulty. I've had no problem writing Vet HM trials off as not for me, but there are many people who are used to participating in new content (events/new DLC zones) who are now finding that this year's new content just isn't doable for them in the way that they like to play - neither playing top meta builds in vet HM trials nor playing casually is wrong or worse than the other, it's just that long-running expectations are clashing with reality imo.

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result. Yes, they made it clear that it would be difficult, but I don't think it really got across how difficult it is, and also that the structure is way different from previous difficult content - you basically have to group up with a trial group due to the instance population cap, which is a different experience from the WW/harrowstorm/dragon fight style difficult content where players just naturally gather in an area and fight together.

I played WW and found it easier than the Night Market mostly because of the above described "soft grouping". I run builds that I use to do veteran DLC dungeons in a group of two, but I often feel like they're not enough for the NM. I don't mind that the content is difficult and I enjoy that the mobs actually have some health to them, but I feel like there is a line in content difficulty that differentiates "difficult but engaging and fun" from "so difficult it's frustrating", and the NM crosses that line for me more often than not.

I have times in NM during which I'm having fun, but about just as often I have times where we try again and again, try to read up on the mechanics, try to regroup, but even then it feels like I'm 0.1 seconds from being one-shot. And at that point, finally killing that boss doesn't give me a feeling of "Wow, what an achievement" but rather "Finally, I can get out and be done with this" because at some point it switches from conquering a challenge to sunk-cost fallacy.

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result.

To be fair it's nowhere near the difficulty of HM Trials. It's about on par with Normal Trials. I'm a PvPer and have never even stepped into a Vet Trial and was still more than comfortable pugging Night Market via the group finder. It feels about as hard as the few Normal Trials I've done like Sunspire or Lucent. Mobs will kill you, bosses have a lot of health. If anything, Night Market is a tad easier as there aren't any super coordinated mechanics like the Twins in Maw or the mirror bosses in Lucent, and encounters don't frequently reset since everyone can immediately respawn and get back to the encounter in ~10 seconds.

After playing it, it definitely isn’t as bad as people are saying, and I do get the feeling that this is an overreaction, and - dare I say - people are overmad that other playstyles are getting content meant for them.

If we just look at the Chapter model we had since Elsweyr, Q1 was always Dungeons. There was not really much solo content there. It was Q2 that brought the zone and story. Then Q3 was Dungeons or QoL, and Q4 was usually a small zone or other miscellany.

So every other year didn’t really have solo stuff in Q1, because the solo stuff was Q2. This year is no different. We lost Dungeons for the Night Market, and even the trial we normally get in Q2 is being delayed until Q3. The next patch will be pretty well exclusively solo content.

The idea that one playerbase is apoplectic that a patch gave something primarily to another is very telling. Should the group content/PvP base rage all over about the next patch only being solo stuff?

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

After playing it, it definitely isn’t as bad as people are saying, and I do get the feeling that this is an overreaction, and - dare I say - people are overmad that other playstyles are getting content meant for them.

If we just look at the Chapter model we had since Elsweyr, Q1 was always Dungeons. There was not really much solo content there. It was Q2 that brought the zone and story. Then Q3 was Dungeons or QoL, and Q4 was usually a small zone or other miscellany.

So every other year didn’t really have solo stuff in Q1, because the solo stuff was Q2. This year is no different. We lost Dungeons for the Night Market, and even the trial we normally get in Q2 is being delayed until Q3. The next patch will be pretty well exclusively solo content.

The idea that one playerbase is apoplectic that a patch gave something primarily to another is very telling. Should the group content/PvP base rage all over about the next patch only being solo stuff?

Dungeons & trials have different difficulty levels, so people could at least start on normal. This place doesn’t.

I spend most of my time now either progging vet hm trials or dungeons, so apparently I am someone who should enjoy the NM.

But I don’t. It’s not that it is too hard (the trash mobs are) but that it is such an awful design.

Need to group, especially if want to progress to dungeon or trial, but then add an extra layer of RNG to get bits you need? So what if all your group has the bits apart from one player? Do you just kick them & get someone with the bits in? That’s poor design. And you don’t get that in the usual dungeons.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge Dungeon guy and I’d have preferred two new Dungeons over this.

My point is more that not every part of the game needs to be for every person. It’s fine for some additions to be targeted to some faction and others to others.
Solo questers will still get their solo questlines in June like we always have. Trialists will still get their trial, but it is being delayed to September-ish. But it is the Dungeon crowd who really are not getting their main thing released this year, and while the Night Market is fun, it’s not the same.
(And then there are the PvPers crying in the corner since their big thing is actively being taken away to give a watered-down version)

Still anyone raging that the typical group-focused patch is focused on groups is missing the point.

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

I think you (or well the original commenter) raise a good point regarding trials, but at the same time I think it's about the context in which these activities exist. Trials are understood to be endgame content for players who want a challenge, whereas events and new DLC zones have long been something very accessible to the whole spectrum of players in terms of difficulty. I've had no problem writing Vet HM trials off as not for me, but there are many people who are used to participating in new content (events/new DLC zones) who are now finding that this year's new content just isn't doable for them in the way that they like to play - neither playing top meta builds in vet HM trials nor playing casually is wrong or worse than the other, it's just that long-running expectations are clashing with reality imo.

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result. Yes, they made it clear that it would be difficult, but I don't think it really got across how difficult it is, and also that the structure is way different from previous difficult content - you basically have to group up with a trial group due to the instance population cap, which is a different experience from the WW/harrowstorm/dragon fight style difficult content where players just naturally gather in an area and fight together.

It was probably me who said this. I think I said it twice or thrice during PTS and once yesterday and haven’t seen anyone else make the same kinda comment that I recall. I was excited seeing this post like “AHH ITS NOT JUST ME WHO CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION!” just to see that it’s potentially based on what I said LOL.

Anyway, I 100% agree that ZOS should have advertised this as a group zone that’s more like a trial and dungeon mashup… and I’ve been saying that too, actually LOL. They did say it was challenging, but they put too much emphasis on “you could follow a group around if you go in solo”. They can’t increase the player cap too much or bosses will get demolished like world bosses during overland events. But they also can’t expect people to chase groups around when the player cap is so low. Night Market should have a modified version of the pop-up that occurs when you try to enter a trial solo… that tells you this is group content, not a story zone.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result.

To be fair it's nowhere near the difficulty of HM Trials. It's about on par with Normal Trials. I'm a PvPer and have never even stepped into a Vet Trial and was still more than comfortable pugging Night Market via the group finder. It feels about as hard as the few Normal Trials I've done like Sunspire or Lucent. Mobs will kill you, bosses have a lot of health. If anything, Night Market is a tad easier as there aren't any super coordinated mechanics like the Twins in Maw or the mirror bosses in Lucent, and encounters don't frequently reset since everyone can immediately respawn and get back to the encounter in ~10 seconds.

What normal trials though? I’ve done a naked nHRC and it was a cakewalk compared to this, even in a full group for NM.

Does HRC even count as a trial anymore when people discuss "trial" difficulty?

I do feel there is a lot of over reaction to the Night Market, because as a very average player with old pure class builds, I'm having so much fun in there. My partner is similarly non-elite. The mechanics and such don't feel nearly as complicated as I'm used to. Yeah, I get 1-shotted but I'm used to fake tank dungeon runs where that is regularly a "feature" when a boss isn't taunted. It shouldn't be a big surprise when it happens in the Market too.

I will say the instancing is sometimes tricky if you want to simply tag along with a group and they're not where you need them. But hopefully that's something the devs can improve for the next NM event. I've just used group finder to locate people in the area I want. The solo players could do the same, teleport to the group lead and then quit the group if they wanted to avoid any formal grouping and follow a zerg.

What does baffle me with some solo player complaints is that we already have dungeons and trials which are group content. Even if some players can solo some, it's still group content. So many things in the game are harder or much slower if you don't group, even if it's informal. This is one of them and it's okay for it to be group orientated. I can be a very solitary person and wary around new people, but I'm happy to team up when it's obviously the best way to tackle harder content. Yeah it goes far outside my comfort zone sometimes, but it's nothing in comparison to say a job interview or first date, so I just take my khajiit by the scruff and chuck her in groups I know when it's a "me" problem and I don't expect the game to always cater to my slightly feline attitude to people lol.

Soarora wrote: »

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

I think you (or well the original commenter) raise a good point regarding trials, but at the same time I think it's about the context in which these activities exist. Trials are understood to be endgame content for players who want a challenge, whereas events and new DLC zones have long been something very accessible to the whole spectrum of players in terms of difficulty. I've had no problem writing Vet HM trials off as not for me, but there are many people who are used to participating in new content (events/new DLC zones) who are now finding that this year's new content just isn't doable for them in the way that they like to play - neither playing top meta builds in vet HM trials nor playing casually is wrong or worse than the other, it's just that long-running expectations are clashing with reality imo.

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result. Yes, they made it clear that it would be difficult, but I don't think it really got across how difficult it is, and also that the structure is way different from previous difficult content - you basically have to group up with a trial group due to the instance population cap, which is a different experience from the WW/harrowstorm/dragon fight style difficult content where players just naturally gather in an area and fight together.

It was probably me who said this. I think I said it twice or thrice during PTS and once yesterday and haven’t seen anyone else make the same kinda comment that I recall. I was excited seeing this post like “AHH ITS NOT JUST ME WHO CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION!” just to see that it’s potentially based on what I said LOL.

Anyway, I 100% agree that ZOS should have advertised this as a group zone that’s more like a trial and dungeon mashup… and I’ve been saying that too, actually LOL. They did say it was challenging, but they put too much emphasis on “you could follow a group around if you go in solo”. They can’t increase the player cap too much or bosses will get demolished like world bosses during overland events. But they also can’t expect people to chase groups around when the player cap is so low. Night Market should have a modified version of the pop-up that occurs when you try to enter a trial solo… that tells you this is group content, not a story zone.

Do we know what the zones actually are?

IE, are the three districts considered one zone?

Because if each district was considered its own zone, then they could potentially lower the caps but just fill them up as people enter them

CalamityCat wrote: »

I do feel there is a lot of over reaction to the Night Market, because as a very average player with old pure class builds, I'm having so much fun in there. My partner is similarly non-elite. The mechanics and such don't feel nearly as complicated as I'm used to. Yeah, I get 1-shotted but I'm used to fake tank dungeon runs where that is regularly a "feature" when a boss isn't taunted. It shouldn't be a big surprise when it happens in the Market too.

I will say the instancing is sometimes tricky if you want to simply tag along with a group and they're not where you need them. But hopefully that's something the devs can improve for the next NM event. I've just used group finder to locate people in the area I want. The solo players could do the same, teleport to the group lead and then quit the group if they wanted to avoid any formal grouping and follow a zerg.

What does baffle me with some solo player complaints is that we already have dungeons and trials which are group content. Even if some players can solo some, it's still group content. So many things in the game are harder or much slower if you don't group, even if it's informal. This is one of them and it's okay for it to be group orientated. I can be a very solitary person and wary around new people, but I'm happy to team up when it's obviously the best way to tackle harder content. Yeah it goes far outside my comfort zone sometimes, but it's nothing in comparison to say a job interview or first date, so I just take my khajiit by the scruff and chuck her in groups I know when it's a "me" problem and I don't expect the game to always cater to my slightly feline attitude to people lol.

I think a lot of the issue is that, while we have other group content, this is group content that *is leaving after so long*, so any rewards they might want, they can easily miss out on.

The other group content, they can get those rewards at any point, because that group content stays.

I said this in another thread, but they (the developers) put things that players want (for me it is the dye) behind a time limited event. We can guess that the Night Market will come back at least two more times, BUT, each time, if you want more than one dye (I want at least the gold dye), or more than one faction's rewards, you have to join a different faction, locking you out of those rewards for the other factions.

Which means, you have one shot if you want all three dyes (I want them, but won't be particularly sad if I miss the reddish one).

After that, we don't know how those rewards will be. Will the next time the night market comes along (after the original three times) use the same rewards? Will they switch out rewards to keep it 'fresh' for the players who already did it and thus don't need to obtain any of the rewards? Will they keep the old rewards and just add new ones in? No one, at this point, knows the answer to that.

Which means, people are now fearing that they might miss out on the rewards they want (and for those who joined other factions than the leading one, they have missed their shot to get the rewards for the 'winning' faction once already.

I don't know how all the rewards are distributed (IE I don't know how to obtain the dye), so I don't know if the losing factions will also be able to obtain that dye (and whatever other rewards there are) even though their factions aren't in the lead. I don't know how many rewards will not be obtainable by the people who did not choose thousand eyes this time around (because I am pretty sure that next time the majority of people are going to choose a different faction).

So, TL;DR is that it is difficulty, group, and time gated content that offers rewards that people want. Then the developers added that it is possible to solo, even if they didn't mean that it is possible to solo by any but the people who know exactly what sets and what skills to choose to solo it. Yes, they did mention that it would be hard, but by leaving that it is possible to solo, it makes it seem like people should at least not be instakilled the minute they get near a trash mob.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

I think you (or well the original commenter) raise a good point regarding trials, but at the same time I think it's about the context in which these activities exist. Trials are understood to be endgame content for players who want a challenge, whereas events and new DLC zones have long been something very accessible to the whole spectrum of players in terms of difficulty. I've had no problem writing Vet HM trials off as not for me, but there are many people who are used to participating in new content (events/new DLC zones) who are now finding that this year's new content just isn't doable for them in the way that they like to play - neither playing top meta builds in vet HM trials nor playing casually is wrong or worse than the other, it's just that long-running expectations are clashing with reality imo.

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result. Yes, they made it clear that it would be difficult, but I don't think it really got across how difficult it is, and also that the structure is way different from previous difficult content - you basically have to group up with a trial group due to the instance population cap, which is a different experience from the WW/harrowstorm/dragon fight style difficult content where players just naturally gather in an area and fight together.

It was probably me who said this. I think I said it twice or thrice during PTS and once yesterday and haven’t seen anyone else make the same kinda comment that I recall. I was excited seeing this post like “AHH ITS NOT JUST ME WHO CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION!” just to see that it’s potentially based on what I said LOL.

Anyway, I 100% agree that ZOS should have advertised this as a group zone that’s more like a trial and dungeon mashup… and I’ve been saying that too, actually LOL. They did say it was challenging, but they put too much emphasis on “you could follow a group around if you go in solo”. They can’t increase the player cap too much or bosses will get demolished like world bosses during overland events. But they also can’t expect people to chase groups around when the player cap is so low. Night Market should have a modified version of the pop-up that occurs when you try to enter a trial solo… that tells you this is group content, not a story zone.

Do we know what the zones actually are?

IE, are the three districts considered one zone?

Because if each district was considered its own zone, then they could potentially lower the caps but just fill them up as people enter them

Yes, it’s all considered one zone: the districts and the center area.

You can see that if you go to the map, there are up/down floors to see each of the districts actively, and the scorecard hotkey will also show the status of the Skirmish in all three districts simultaneously so they all have to be connected.

Thanks, I never realized that!

It does make sense, but that is sadly why the zones seem so empty.

Night Market is not a trial - it's an in-game event that's being actively pushed as the core of Season 0 and the premiere in game activity. It's inaccessible to solo and casual players. The comparison is illegitimate.

Soarora wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

Night Market is not a trial - it's an in-game event that's being actively pushed as the core of Season 0 and the premiere in game activity. It's inaccessible to solo and casual players. The comparison is illegitimate.

You are literally getting 2 full length quests instead of 1 this year. And new kinds of quests. And solo dungeons. And additions during high seas. And more.

And how is the comparison illegitimate? If a trial was added to the game for the first time right now, seems like people would go in there solo, die to the trash enemies, and say it’s too hard and whine about not being able to solo the 12-man content. How would it be any different?

That's correct, Season 1 will have content for me. Season 0 does not. Trials are not time limited events pushed as the premiere in-game activity. The comparison remains illegitimate.